Enough with the overkill on cooldowns please

[Surbusken]

2 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

What new thing to think about?

Well the only thing you've confirmed is that you cannot handle two different input types while I can. That's not new.

And I'm simply in disagreement that these things cannot coexist only because it's annoying for you. I think the cooldowns are long yes, but I honestly am not bothered by it. I can work with it. They needed to implement something that was balanced and this was their decision. The other decision they could make is removal of the on call crewmember and archgun deployment. On paper this would make you happy.

Gibberish.

[Drasiel]

3 hours ago, Surbusken said:

I don't feel you are bringing up anything relevant to the points I made?

Dispensary adds infinite ammo to archguns, is that a fact or is that not a fact. So is the cooldown absolutely pointless for "balance", to prevent constant use, yes. I would call that a certified fact.

Cooldown to prevent constant use, well it is in constant use...

You can play entire maps, reloading your archgun, when you want, on any frame you want. The end.

On top of that, necramechs, who in and of themselves, are of course totally overpowered, clowning the "because balance" viewpoint - not that we weren't already laughing at the notion of the game being remotely balanced as is.

... they get to reload archguns in around 2 seconds.

 

What category the game falls into, is also rather factual, you can't just make things up.

Yeah I'd like the game to identify as 2D strategy to fit my lifestyle.

The game's genre isn't a personal knock on you, like I am out here trying to look down on people for not being elite players, none at all. The player's only job is having fun, relaxing and destressing, it's recreational.

That's one of the strengths of warframe I'd say, people are laid back and helpful but right now we in a debate about the health of the game, where being helpful to individual posters, have to take a backseat to being helpful towards the entirety of the game. The debate aside I wish you nothing but the best.

But so "the genre of the game" point being brought up, is relevant for qualifying gameplay.

Could you drive slow in a racing game for example? Could you grow plastic waterbottles in a farming simulator?

There are universally true attributes, assigned to nearly everything, that must be true. When does a football turn into a basketball? Well I am just out here wanting to feel it's a tennisball, is that how it works.

Of course then a game genre has mandatory restraints, characteristics, demands, expecations put on it.

For warframe, nothing is further from the genre characteristics, than cooldowns.

I can't think of a single feature or element in all of video gaming, that is further from the genre, than cooldowns literally.

 

The genre aside, I also believe you could write a 48 volume saga, on how cooldowns in video games, fundamentally don't work, and were only invented from lack of developer solutions, trying to stall players.

Based on the premise, "video games are about doing something", where if true, a cooldown, having to sit and wait "not doing anything", logically have to be anti-gaming.

My point about dispensary and necramechs allowing infinite use of archguns is that you only really get full easy access to this at end game. Game balance doesn't only happen at end game it has to encompass the entire game. By the time you can use archguns 100% of the time you've already surpassed their potential power level with many other options. The cooldown isn't for end game players it's for mid game players when you first get ground based archguns.

You're right what category a game falls into is factual but that doesn't make calling this a twitch shooter accurate because warframe lacks some of the core properties of twitch shooters.

• unless you are undergeared or going past level 300 enemies (which the devs has said is outside the scope of their game balance) you aren't going to instantly die from being shot.
• You can't dodge or move to avoid bullets because the grineer faction is hitscan
• There is only one "counter" move in the entire game that rewards fast reaction time and punishes high ping (manual knockdown recover in air as you are knocked down) and we have mods we can equip that will completely remove the need to ever use it.
• The game is always super generous with response time. Even in the hacking minigames where it's timed you have more than double the time you'd need to solve them

Battle arena games, fighting games, Call of duty type games, bullet hells like nuclear throne, QTE walking simulators even, they all demand fast reaction times or you fail. Warframe doesn't punish you for having bad reaction times it just asks of you to mod better or change what you are equipping. I will acknowledge that conclave specifically is twitch gaming though. The enemy AI in PVE warframe definitely isn't though.

While warframe is not a twitch shooter it does use some elements from them. We can dodge, although due to the horde nature of enemies outside of rolling guard and abusing shield gating this doesn't help a huge amount in most cases. We have very high mobility and outside of the grineer faction this helps avoid a lot of damage.

I'm not saying that warframe being a twitch shooter is a knock on me, I'm saying I'm physically unable to play reflex based games. Warframe allows you to mod or equip weaponry that can completely negate any and all of the few twitch aspects in the game. Twitch games demand fast reflexes, Warframe offers it as a side dish.

 

1 hour ago, Sovyul said:

MR tests should have a 23h cooldown though

This I can definitely agree with.

[Surbusken]

42 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

My point about dispensary and necramechs allowing infinite use of archguns is that you only really get full easy access to this at end game. Game balance doesn't only happen at end game it has to encompass the entire game. By the time you can use archguns 100% of the time you've already surpassed their potential power level with many other options. The cooldown isn't for end game players it's for mid game players when you first get ground based archguns.

You're right what category a game falls into is factual but that doesn't make calling this a twitch shooter accurate because warframe lacks some of the core properties of twitch shooters.

• unless you are undergeared or going past level 300 enemies (which the devs has said is outside the scope of their game balance) you aren't going to instantly die from being shot.
• You can't dodge or move to avoid bullets because the grineer faction is hitscan
• There is only one "counter" move in the entire game that rewards fast reaction time and punishes high ping (manual knockdown recover in air as you are knocked down) and we have mods we can equip that will completely remove the need to ever use it.
• The game is always super generous with response time. Even in the hacking minigames where it's timed you have more than double the time you'd need to solve them

Battle arena games, fighting games, Call of duty type games, bullet hells like nuclear throne, QTE walking simulators even, they all demand fast reaction times or you fail. Warframe doesn't punish you for having bad reaction times it just asks of you to mod better or change what you are equipping. I will acknowledge that conclave specifically is twitch gaming though. The enemy AI in PVE warframe definitely isn't though.

While warframe is not a twitch shooter it does use some elements from them. We can dodge, although due to the horde nature of enemies outside of rolling guard and abusing shield gating this doesn't help a huge amount in most cases. We have very high mobility and outside of the grineer faction this helps avoid a lot of damage.

I'm not saying that warframe being a twitch shooter is a knock on me, I'm saying I'm physically unable to play reflex based games. Warframe allows you to mod or equip weaponry that can completely negate any and all of the few twitch aspects in the game. Twitch games demand fast reflexes, Warframe offers it as a side dish.

 

This I can definitely agree with.

No, "twitch based" means the speed of the input, in this case warframe allowing animation skipping, "normal game speed" is 'as fast as you can go'.

The opposite would be something like turn based, games with auto-targeting, 2D strategy etc.

What the response time is of a particulary grineer unit, is completely besides the point.

 

Ignis Wraith is Mr 9, Cedo is MR 8, Acceltra is MR 8, Lenz is MR 8.

While Mausolon is MR 14 and Kuva Ayanga is MR 13.

So the whole "they aren't end-game" narrative sounded real good, but maybe next time go look up the actual facts before you decide to cook up a story.

 

Now you are telling me, the developers had the intention of protecting midgame from overpowered items, by means of psychic intuition, only you were aware of? Have the developers ever made any comments on it?

I mean, when did you ever get the impression, anyone was out there "protecting the integrity of mid-game"? Or balance period.

In this game you can team up with MR 30s and do all content, assumed you unlocked the quests first.

 

Then all of that, and thats still doens't mean anything. If they actually had those intentions, which is nonsense, obviously, is early game or midgame or any parts of the game, protected from powercreep? No?

Well then.

[Drasiel]

8 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

No, "twitch based" means the speed of the input, in this case warframe allowing animation skipping, "normal game speed" is 'as fast as you can go'.

The opposite would be something like turn based, games with auto-targeting, 2D strategy etc.

What the response time is of a particulary grineer unit, is completely besides the point.

 

Ignis Wraith is Mr 9, Cedo is MR 8, Acceltra is MR 8, Lenz is MR 8.

While Mausolon is MR 14 and Kuva Ayanga is MR 13.

So the whole "they aren't end-game" narrative sounded real good, but maybe next time go look up the actual facts before you decide to cook up a story.

 

Now you are telling me, the developers had the intention of protecting midgame from overpowered items, by means of psychic intuition, only you were aware of? Have the developers ever made any comments on it?

I mean, when did you ever get the impression, anyone was out there "protecting the integrity of mid-game"? Or balance period.

In this game you can team up with MR 30s and do all content, assumed you unlocked the quests first.

 

Then all of that, and thats still doens't mean anything. If they actually had those intentions, which is nonsense, obviously, is early game or midgame or any parts of the game, protected from powercreep? No?

Well then.

Look I said in my first post and I'll say it again now: we're just going to have to agree to disagree about warframe being a "twitch shooter" I don't think it is for reasons I already outlined, you have a weird hangup about animation cancelling and speed running.

You keep moving the goalposts. I said infinite access to archguns isn't unlocked until endgame. Mausolon and kuva ayanga were added several major updates after the gravimag was introduced. When you gain access to the gravimag you won't be able to use those guns yet unless you decide to avoid fortuna and never want baruuk or hildryn. There being end game viable weapons in a weapon category doesn't change the fact that you get access to gravimag in mid game. Before the deimos update there were no archguns beyond mastery rank 8. Even with the addition of the mausolon, morgha, cortege and Kuva Ayanga, melee, warframe powers, and even some guns are still better than the highest tier archguns at end game due to there being very few mod and build options for archguns.

Where do I get the idea of protecting mid game and balancing archguns with a cooldown? From devstreams where the devs talked about the introduction of arch guns and how they were more powerful than regular guns for their mastery rank (prior to melee rebalancing and deimos guns) and how they wanted them to be special "badass" moments where you pull out your heavy gun for limited time and feel awesome doing it but it's not main method of progressing because they still want to you to use your regular arsenal.

You may not agree that the game is balanced but DE regularly implements buffs and nerfs to content to maintain game balance so at the very least even if you don't care about balance they do.  You do realize that mastery rank limitations, time gating, quest locks are all about balancing how fast you can progress through the game and what weapons you have access to? That those are clear intentions of balancing early and mid game? I think we've exhausted this conversation. We clearly have very very different world views when it comes to games and how they are constructed.

cool downs are fine, there should be more ways to speed them up like the archgun ammo.

[DreadgeNought]

4 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

With full squad(with luck with people who know what they are doing), yes you are right.

But that is really deceptive and I'll tell you why.
I did an experiment last week, I was solo on 1+ hour on sp survival and I deployed about 10-ish specters(ancient, corrupted, moa, nidus etc) +the crew dude(with a great rivened gun, the gun was not the problem). When I was around them it seemed like they were helping and killing a lot.
Then I said to myself, I'll take a little break, they seem to be fine, 2 min should not be a problem(I did not pause intentionally)
When I got back from the break everything has gone to hell, almost all the specters were dead(except the corrupted bombard), life support from 100% was at 0.
So ye specters can seem to do stuff when they have the support and back up of a warframe or a whole squad, but on their own...they are useless.

Oberon Prime  :)

 

But yeah they are useful for helping distract foes but really one only needs a couple or few of them.

namely like the  Lancer, and On Call with a Wisp or Nidus being really good or an Oberon out. 
Armies only work with support.  yeah, but do add fun seeing a personal army  ,  lol

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Gibberish.

😂 Pot, meet kettle.

[Surbusken]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

😂 Pot, meet kettle.

Cliche meet copy-paste

[Surbusken]

3 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Look I said in my first post and I'll say it again now: we're just going to have to agree to disagree about warframe being a "twitch shooter" I don't think it is for reasons I already outlined, you have a weird hangup about animation cancelling and speed running.

You keep moving the goalposts. I said infinite access to archguns isn't unlocked until endgame. Mausolon and kuva ayanga were added several major updates after the gravimag was introduced. When you gain access to the gravimag you won't be able to use those guns yet unless you decide to avoid fortuna and never want baruuk or hildryn. There being end game viable weapons in a weapon category doesn't change the fact that you get access to gravimag in mid game. Before the deimos update there were no archguns beyond mastery rank 8. Even with the addition of the mausolon, morgha, cortege and Kuva Ayanga, melee, warframe powers, and even some guns are still better than the highest tier archguns at end game due to there being very few mod and build options for archguns.

Where do I get the idea of protecting mid game and balancing archguns with a cooldown? From devstreams where the devs talked about the introduction of arch guns and how they were more powerful than regular guns for their mastery rank (prior to melee rebalancing and deimos guns) and how they wanted them to be special "badass" moments where you pull out your heavy gun for limited time and feel awesome doing it but it's not main method of progressing because they still want to you to use your regular arsenal.

You may not agree that the game is balanced but DE regularly implements buffs and nerfs to content to maintain game balance so at the very least even if you don't care about balance they do.  You do realize that mastery rank limitations, time gating, quest locks are all about balancing how fast you can progress through the game and what weapons you have access to? That those are clear intentions of balancing early and mid game? I think we've exhausted this conversation. We clearly have very very different world views when it comes to games and how they are constructed.

cool downs are fine, there should be more ways to speed them up like the archgun ammo.

It's not about agreeing or not, reality is what it is, if you can convince me this game needs 10 minutes cooldowns as quality gameplay, I will support it.

Which is the point I am trying to get across to you, with all the side skirmishes you go on, bottom line, either long cooldowns help the game or they damage it.

What I think about them, what the developers' ideas are, who is wrong about what, what happened 3 years ago, what were the intentions, none of that matters one iota to me.

The reality of the gameplay has nothing to do with me, it is what it is, on its own and that is usually, not always, supported by the facts.

Such as the fact of animation clipping or animation skipping equals twitch based gameplay, what "you feel you'd like it to be, to save face' is unprofessional, it's amateur. If you can't work by facts and documentation, you need to stay out of debating, you are not helping. White belt with no driver's license, not allowed to go to the deep end of the pool, without the giraffe splash pads.

Just stick to the facts and check your ego at the door.

[Drasiel]

44 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

It's not about agreeing or not, reality is what it is, if you can convince me this game needs 10 minutes cooldowns as quality gameplay, I will support it.

Which is the point I am trying to get across to you, with all the side skirmishes you go on, bottom line, either long cooldowns help the game or they damage it.

What I think about them, what the developers' ideas are, who is wrong about what, what happened 3 years ago, what were the intentions, none of that matters one iota to me.

The reality of the gameplay has nothing to do with me, it is what it is, on its own and that is usually, not always, supported by the facts.

Such as the fact of animation clipping or animation skipping equals twitch based gameplay, what "you feel you'd like it to be, to save face' is unprofessional, it's amateur. If you can't work by facts and documentation, you need to stay out of debating, you are not helping. White belt with no driver's license, not allowed to go to the deep end of the pool, without the giraffe splash pads.

Just stick to the facts and check your ego at the door.

I'm not here to convince you of anything or debate you, I'm here to provide my opinion that cooldowns are fine although I think there should be more ways to lower them by actively playing the game like ground based archgun.

I'm not going to convince you because you already don't think they have any place in warframe with enough conviction to post in the forums. You argue that every statement endorsing cooldowns isn't pertinent to the discussion. You constantly try to force your view of what type of game warframe is, completely ignoring that games have always used cross genre mechanics and one or two examples of specific genre mechanics don't equate to the entire game being in that genre. You know what has twitch gaming with dodging and reaction based attacks and defences? The mario RPG series but that's still a turn based rpg. You are the one that needs to "check their ego" maybe also take the time to  learn that "agree to disagree" is the polite way of extricating oneself from a pointless discussion.

[Surbusken]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I'm not here to convince you of anything or debate you, I'm here to provide my opinion that cooldowns are fine although I think there should be more ways to lower them by actively playing the game like ground based archgun.

I'm not going to convince you because you already don't think they have any place in warframe with enough conviction to post in the forums. You argue that every statement endorsing cooldowns isn't pertinent to the discussion. You constantly try to force your view of what type of game warframe is, completely ignoring that games have always used cross genre mechanics and one or two examples of specific genre mechanics don't equate to the entire game being in that genre. You know what has twitch gaming with dodging and reaction based attacks and defences? The mario RPG series but that's still a turn based rpg. You are the one that needs to "check their ego" maybe also take the time to  learn that "agree to disagree" is the polite way of extricating oneself from a pointless discussion.

Well you should be here to debate, since this is a forum for debate.

A qualified opinion has to be built on something, other than it being "yours", wouldn't you agree? "This is okay because it's just 'my opinion', it's either a good point or it isn't, either it helps the game or it doesn't.

This is going back to the ego conversation, you keep talking about you, like that has anything to do with anything.

 

In so far as classifying the genre, that's you going overboard, trying to milk every side detail you can, instead of just sticking to the point.

Warframe's genre is co-incidental, the point in case being 'cooldown vs fun', 'cooldown vs gameplay', 'cooldown vs game speed'. You go off on some desperate tangent because you are ego-debating, 'everything has to be denied'.

You of course already know fully well how fast the game is played, so that's just you at your finest hour in all your glory. It's amateur.

 

And yes, you can convince me, that's what I said the whole time, present an argument for why, waiting around for 10 minutes doing nothing, in a video game, is fun, improves the quality or maybe increases player happiness or whatever.

"I hear region chat talking about how satisfied they are with 10 min cooldowns", or "game x, y and z has made it to the top of the steam chart, by blocking their players from activvely playing the game with cooldowns".

When cooldowns are so great, shouldn't we just uninstall the game then? If 'not doing anything', 'not playing' is so great, then active gameplay is wrong, right?

I want to hear those arguments.

The 'necessary evil' to avoid powercreep, went out the window with archguns already being in constant use, so let's hear the next argument.

 

/edit

ps. Also don't forget we are debating the 10 minutes cooldown on crewmates, archguns cooldown and cooldowns in general.

[Drasiel]

51 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Well you should be here to debate, since this is a forum for debate.

A qualified opinion has to be built on something, other than it being "yours", wouldn't you agree? "This is okay because it's just 'my opinion', it's either a good point or it isn't, either it helps the game or it doesn't.

This is going back to the ego conversation, you keep talking about you, like that has anything to do with anything.

 

In so far as classifying the genre, that's you going overboard, trying to milk every side detail you can, instead of just sticking to the point.

Warframe's genre is co-incidental, the point in case being 'cooldown vs fun', 'cooldown vs gameplay', 'cooldown vs game speed'. You go off on some desperate tangent because you are ego-debating, 'everything has to be denied'.

You of course already know fully well how fast the game is played, so that's just you at your finest hour in all your glory. It's amateur.

 

And yes, you can convince me, that's what I said the whole time, present an argument for why, waiting around for 10 minutes doing nothing, in a video game, is fun, improves the quality or maybe increases player happiness or whatever.

"I hear region chat talking about how satisfied they are with 10 min cooldowns", or "game x, y and z has made it to the top of the steam chart, by blocking their players from activvely playing the game with cooldowns".

When cooldowns are so great, shouldn't we just uninstall the game then? If 'not doing anything', 'not playing' is so great, then active gameplay is wrong, right?

I want to hear those arguments.

The 'necessary evil' to avoid powercreep, went out the window with archguns already being in constant use, so let's hear the next argument.

 

/edit

ps. Also don't forget we are debating the 10 minutes cooldown on crewmates, archguns cooldown and cooldowns in general.

Right so:

1. counter arguments aren't valid when you don't agree with them
2. examples supporting counter arguments are egotistical rants
3. Literally saying "we need an active way to decrease cooldowns" is being fine with 10 min cooldowns.
4. Game mechanics designed to limit special item spam are "evil"
5. If one can't use their "special toy" they should just not play at all. Despite it being less than 1% of the game

Good luck with your semi-coherent madness. I'm done.

[Elenortirie]

You guys are getting cooldowns? :P

Jokes aside, as far as archgun and necramech cooldown goes, I am not exactly sure how archgun cooldwon is supposed to work, but everytime I used archgun I was able to re-summon it everytime I needed. I suppose the fact I have obtained gravimag and deployer only after I got protea doesn't help with this one.

As for Necramech - as long as I do not die with one the cooldown is short enought for me to be able to again summon/resummon it at the times I need.

I don't know a jackS#&$ on the on-call crewmate cooldown, since I didn't get that intrinsic maxed out yet, and frankly I don't exactly see much of a point with those?

[vegetosayajin]

7 minutes ago, Elenortirie said:

I don't exactly see much of a point with those?

Specter with an ok-ish stats who can use your modded gun(anything you equip it with). In short wuclone is better(and the equinox augment specter) but this is something like an addition to all of that.

[RazerXPrime]

19 minutes ago, Elenortirie said:

You guys are getting cooldowns? :P

Jokes aside, as far as archgun and necramech cooldown goes, I am not exactly sure how archgun cooldwon is supposed to work, but everytime I used archgun I was able to re-summon it everytime I needed. I suppose the fact I have obtained gravimag and deployer only after I got protea doesn't help with this one.

As for Necramech - as long as I do not die with one the cooldown is short enought for me to be able to again summon/resummon it at the times I need.

I don't know a jackS#&$ on the on-call crewmate cooldown, since I didn't get that intrinsic maxed out yet, and frankly I don't exactly see much of a point with those?

There are a few Archguns that have so much ammo that they will hit the recharge moment before you empty them. But some are a bit lacking in ammo or empty the reserves faster than the recharge kicks in. I share your experience. My use of Archguns is most often such that I'm never ever bothered by the cooldown.

If anything I'm more annoyed that I cannot switch between Archgun and normal weaponry on the fly rather than the actual cooldown. That last part has never bothered me.

Necramech summoning has been altered I think, but honestly I've never needed to summon it more than once in an area. When you've put a bit of work into them they become super tanky so no need to summon them multiple times. You can even resummon while active to get them near your location if you've exitted and left them behind. Awesome. 

For me the cooldowns of necramech and archguns are meh conversations. Not bothersome and unnecessary energy discussing something that works.

The cooldown of the on call crew is not what bothers me really, because I understand how it works and I work with that. I don't have different expectations. We can improve it however. The time available is very short. Only three minutes. If we can increase this to 5 minutes that would be better. Wasn't the AFK time out also 5 minutes? Maybe this is implemented to prevent AFK farming. Well just a thought.

What would be cool is if, instead of a limited time in mission, you can revive the on call crew member much like you can on your Railjack. Now this requires balance because these things are monsterously powerful in lower level content. So timing should be short and with diminishing returns. Or perhaps with a limited amount of revives. Just throwing some ideas out there. Having an understanding that after death the crewmember goes on 10 minute cooldown would ensure you to prioritize reviving it. Needs more balance to prevent afk farming.

Thing is these crewmembers are required to defend your ship when it is boarded, so they need to be strong to deal with lvl 100 enemies. Perhaps the whole idea of summoning them in missions wasn't a good idea in general. At this point the 3 minute uptime makes them very niche in use. But perhaps that's how DE intended it.

[Surbusken]

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Right so:

1. counter arguments aren't valid when you don't agree with them
2. examples supporting counter arguments are egotistical rants
3. Literally saying "we need an active way to decrease cooldowns" is being fine with 10 min cooldowns.
4. Game mechanics designed to limit special item spam are "evil"
5. If one can't use their "special toy" they should just not play at all. Despite it being less than 1% of the game

Good luck with your semi-coherent madness. I'm done.

No reason to get angry, is there... minus maybe ego?