pet permadeath in Arbitrations should go

[sunderthefirmament]

If we cannot collect those little tokens to revive our pets as we could a random teammate, why then do pets have permadeath in arbitrations?  I'm firmly in the "pets shouldn't even have HP camp," yet I acknowledge the likelihood of that ever happening is slim, especially with more and more options being thrown our way for pet survivability.  And yet, even with basically an entire build dedicated to survivability, pets still drop dead for reasons outside of player control.

 

I hope this gets addressed.

[Dauggie]

some companion / pets have good abilities, having them death immune will be crazy. kavats can just keep stripping armor / provide buffs. you dont have to worry about them dying so you'll remove all the HP armor mods and use Attack mods. at star chart level you can basically take a stroll and your pet can kill enemies for you.  we already have the undying kavat, if you really just want undying pet, just use that. not sure if it works in arbi

[BiancaRoughfin]

49 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

pet permadeath in Arbitrations should go

No, because it will not make you better think what companion to take into the mission and just pick Smeeta Kavat for the procs every single time wile not having any consequence.

I use the Djinn for every mission type because it can revive infinitely, it attacks from a very long range and with the right weapon will apply 10+ stacks of Viral/Heat/Other status in a single attack to groups of mobs.

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

pet permadeath in Arbitrations should go

 

And bring back player permadeath while they're at it because Arbitrations are a joke right now.

 

... Sorry, couldn't help myself with that title...

[chaotea]

Pet permadeth should go generally. On death pets should have a timer of 3-5 min until they revive, shortened on picking up health orbs when at max health or something. Sentinals should get a better bonus for these pickups (as they cant be revived).

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Pet permadeth should go generally. On death pets should have a timer of 3-5 min until they revive, shortened on picking up health orbs when at max health or something. Sentinals should get a better bonus for these pickups (as they cant be revived).

This. For all pets, sentinels, animal, and moa.

[Monolake]

2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

And bring back player permadeath while they're at it because Arbitrations are a joke right now.

They are a joke since players are overpowered and unkillable more than ever, thanks to shieldgating and nerf to mobs.

The token revive mechanic is really good and incentivizes teamplay while still keeping the death punishing.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 hours ago, Dauggie said:

some companion / pets have good abilities, having them death immune will be crazy. kavats can just keep stripping armor / provide buffs. you dont have to worry about them dying so you'll remove all the HP armor mods and use Attack mods. at star chart level you can basically take a stroll and your pet can kill enemies for you.  we already have the undying kavat, if you really just want undying pet, just use that. not sure if it works in arbi

Nah.  I'd willingly give up all of my pet's offensive abilities to let it stay alive longer.  I'm sorry, I'm not really relying on my smeeta's dodgy AI randomly deciding when to attack a target in order to up my DPS.  And your argument about star chart level isn't really relevant.  I'm talking about arbitrations.  I'm not going to roll over to the vulpa because this game is grindy content island after grindy content island, and anything that reduces that grind a little is almost always worth it.  So smeeta it is.

 

4 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

No, because it will not make you better think what companion to take into the mission and just pick Smeeta Kavat for the procs every single time wile not having any consequence.

I use the Djinn for every mission type because it can revive infinitely, it attacks from a very long range and with the right weapon will apply 10+ stacks of Viral/Heat/Other status in a single attack to groups of mobs.

No.  Your anti-smeeta argument would just switch the meta over to the undying vulpas and literally nothing else.  Even the Djinn can't compete.  I'm glad you've found success with it, but that hasn't been my experience.  The Djinn is awful, as when it starts actually dying the enemies will just wipe it out the second it respawns.  It's a bad mechanic, and needs to be fixed.  You get about 5 seconds of uptime before it's down for another 90s.  I tried it when Steel Path was new, and was sorely, sorely disappointed.

 

I'm fine with the current "permadeath" we have for players in arbies (I was fine with the older, harsher version too).  I'd be fine with it applying to pets too, if it came with the tokens.  As it stands, it's inconsistent and feels bad.  It feels bad enough when I'm flying through a level and my smeeta decides to crouch in a puddle of molten toxin and then require reviving.  It feels even worse when I have no recourse.  And yes, yes, I am using the pack leader mods.  Basically my entire build is either survivability or utility.  Should I just swap on Master's Summons for everything?  I imagine the new parazon mod will help, but it still feels like I'm being unfairly punished for something that is largely out of my control as a player.

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Your anti-smeeta argument would just switch the meta over to the undying vulpas and literally nothing else.

I think you missed the point here, reason people use Smeeta in Arbitration is to increase the amount of Vitus Essence collected just as it does in Steel path with Steel Essences, something Vulpa doesnt do.
If pets didnt die, player would be allowed to benefit from Smeeta endlessly. Also, wile the Vulpa can go through its Larval stages, its abilities dont function wile in that stage.

4 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Even the Djinn can't compete.  I'm glad you've found success with it, but that hasn't been my experience.

Apparently you have never played with the Helstrum sentinel Weapon. Wile your Vulpa will hit up to 6 enemies at a time with its Quill for a 40% chance to apply Viral, my Djinn with Helstrum will apply guaranteed 10+ stacks of Viral to large groups of mobs with each burst it fires at 60m range, triple the range of the Vulpa`s quill.

[sunderthefirmament]

8 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I think you missed the point here, reason people use Smeeta in Arbitration is to increase the amount of Vitus Essence collected just as it does in Steel path with Steel Essences, something Vulpa doesnt do.
If pets didnt die, player would be allowed to benefit from Smeeta endlessly. Also, wile the Vulpa can go through its Larval stages, its abilities dont function wile in that stage.

Apparently you have never played with the Helstrum sentinel Weapon. Wile your Vulpa will hit up to 6 enemies at a time with its Quill for a 40% chance to apply Viral, my Djinn with Helstrum will apply guaranteed 10+ stacks of Viral to large groups of mobs with each burst it fires at 60m range, triple the range of the Vulpa`s quill.

...I was referring to its survivability, not its ability to spread viral procs.  I have not been wowed by Reawaken, as by the time enemies are actually able to kill your Djinn, they're just going to kill it again when it respawns, leading to very limited uptime.

 

Yeah, more modern sentinel/MOA weapons make most of the older weapons look like trash.  But that's not really what I'm debating here.

 

As for the reason why people use smeeta, yes.  Of course.  I don't need you to explain the horrific drop rates of vitus essence to me or how charm has been abused.  And there should be some sort of trade off, I suppose.  But a trade off where I am suddenly (and arbitrarily, if you'll pardon the pun) stripped of my enemy radar, my loot radar, my charm, and my vacuum with basically no recourse is a bad trade off, and a bad system.  Give me tokens to revive my pets, or just have them go down like they normally do.  That system is still bad, but at least it's consistent.

[Drasiel]

43 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I think you missed the point here, reason people use Smeeta in Arbitration is to increase the amount of Vitus Essence collected just as it does in Steel path with Steel Essences, something Vulpa doesnt do.
If pets didnt die, player would be allowed to benefit from Smeeta endlessly. Also, wile the Vulpa can go through its Larval stages, its abilities dont function wile in that stage.

Apparently you have never played with the Helstrum sentinel Weapon. Wile your Vulpa will hit up to 6 enemies at a time with its Quill for a 40% chance to apply Viral, my Djinn with Helstrum will apply guaranteed 10+ stacks of Viral to large groups of mobs with each burst it fires at 60m range, triple the range of the Vulpa`s quill.

Really charm is facing the same issue as Vacuum did back in the day: players would only use the sentinel that had vacuum, carrier.  What's interesting is that chesa's are completely ignored because their mini desecrate is so unreliable. Maybe the solution is making charm a universal precept like vacuum (and it's later added beast variant) became.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2021-06-23 at 9:13 PM, Drasiel said:

Really charm is facing the same issue as Vacuum did back in the day: players would only use the sentinel that had vacuum, carrier.  What's interesting is that chesa's are completely ignored because their mini desecrate is so unreliable. Maybe the solution is making charm a universal precept like vacuum (and it's later added beast variant) became.

Maybe the (theoretical ideal) solution is to remove Charm and make everything for which Charm is used to alleviate the burden... not as godawful so we wouldn't feel the difference.

Except those 'wait for triple proc layers in a multi-hour endless farm before picking up loot' which are clearly problematic enough to make DE opt into despawning precious currency drops. They'll still feel the difference, but I know I for one would not miss seeing every Affinity Charm buff trigger 5 seconds after I pick up the thing I'd really want to be doubled.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 23.6.2021 um 15:55 schrieb sunderthefirmament:

If we cannot collect those little tokens to revive our pets as we could a random teammate, why then do pets have permadeath in arbitrations?  I'm firmly in the "pets shouldn't even have HP camp," yet I acknowledge the likelihood of that ever happening is slim, especially with more and more options being thrown our way for pet survivability.  And yet, even with basically an entire build dedicated to survivability, pets still drop dead for reasons outside of player control.

 

I hope this gets addressed.

yesterday already!
that destroys almost every public run. who wants to collect loot like a grandpa and be blind without radar?

but the mode is a pure epic fail. it was constantly nerfed. and I don't know any improvements.

[Drasiel]

27 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Maybe the (theoretical ideal) solution is to remove Charm and make everything for which Charm is used to alleviate the burden... not as godawful so we wouldn't feel the difference.

Except those 'wait for triple proc layers in a multi-hour endless farm before picking up loot' which are clearly problematic enough to make DE opt into despawning precious currency drops. They'll still feel the difference, but I know I for one would not miss seeing every Affinity Charm buff trigger 5 seconds after I pick up the thing I'd really want to be doubled.

charm is certainly an odd duck. The only buff I ever hear people talk about is the loot multiplier one, which I agree is probably a problem. Without that I doubt charm would be popular in the least because it's unreliable. I think the issue comes down to how the buff works more than just what it does Instead of rolling an extra drop (like the chesa) it doubles what you already have. it's in effect a free booster for it's duration. It's the only free booster in the game that we can constantly equip. The things people end up farming with it (steel essence, kuva, vitus essence) are not able to get an extra loot roll, they are only affected by booster and charm, and boosters even stack with charm. This creates a foo tactic where if you want to maximize those drops charm is mandatory, even with a booster already active. Taking that away from players would really frustrate people, changing it to be extra drop chance would make it useless for endgame farming, I can only really see offering it to all pets being the solution the community won't riot over.

[TheLexiConArtist]

15 hours ago, Drasiel said:

charm is certainly an odd duck. The only buff I ever hear people talk about is the loot multiplier one, which I agree is probably a problem. Without that I doubt charm would be popular in the least because it's unreliable.

I think the issue comes down to how the buff works more than just what it does Instead of rolling an extra drop (like the chesa) it doubles what you already have. it's in effect a free booster for it's duration. It's the only free booster in the game that we can constantly equip. The things people end up farming with it (steel essence, kuva, vitus essence) are not able to get an extra loot roll, they are only affected by booster and charm, and boosters even stack with charm. This creates a foo tactic where if you want to maximize those drops charm is mandatory, even with a booster already active.

Taking that away from players would really frustrate people, changing it to be extra drop chance would make it useless for endgame farming, I can only really see offering it to all pets being the solution the community won't riot over.

I'm inclined to agree. It's not the only thing that comes in handy, but the unreliability does limit the rest, especially with most of their impacts being quite minor:

• The instant-reload is often incidentally consumed by proactive reloading as you normally might to ensure preparedness, instead of emptying the mag entirely to take advantage of the guaranteed refill.
• The damage soak/overshield will be consumed by something so easily players won't really notice a difference unless they're fighting level 9999 and any glancing blow would drop them. Explosive barrels, traps, single-HP ticks from Eximus auras will all waste that.
• The crit buff generally lacks a consistent impact depending on how critty your weapon of choice happens to be, and even as it is, suffers lack of a "Max(charmBuff, weaponCrit)" check, becoming a possible detriment in highest-end cases.
• The freebie rare resource drop matters almost exclusively when you're grabbing some quick Argon crystals, since the rest are so easily grabbed from containers (even O-cells are trivial).

Essences, Cryo, and Kuva are the things first considered, but also everything from open-world activity loot (mining/fishing/conservation tags, plus notably Toroids) to Anomaly shards. It's even worth keeping it equipped in general for Corpus missions (more Oxium always nice) and before the Botanist mod, any tileset with plant materials just in case you happened to get a bonus and felt like scanning a few to keep up your stocks. I reckon they could silently take off the affinity part of the 'affinity buff' (as it classifies it ingame) and most people wouldn't even register the difference, the resource effect is just that important.
Of all those things I mentioned, only Oxium and Toroids (with an infinitesimal chance) could be potentially Chesacrated. And the Chesacrate has a silent fail chance working against it. At least if you see the Long Buff you know your drop bonus is ready and you can go ham.

 

As stated, it was a purely theoretical 'ideal' to remove the Charm drop buff. Its innate unreliability and more importantly ability to layer stacks make it a crazy slot-machine of a gamble. All the things using each of those resources being dialed back based on the idea of maybe having some of your drops doubled is also incredibly unlikely. The pool of worthwhile affected drops is so much narrower I doubt Chesa would replace Smeeta if Charm disappeared.

I'm not even sure they could get away with making it more transparent/reliable at the cost of its stacking functionality without causing a wave of ire, and that still wouldn't be something that stops Smeeta being used as much as they already are, if not more so.