Public Lich/Sister Stabbing Refusal Solution

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

11 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

Eh, I just stab and keep going every time now. I think people just need to unlearn the waiting strategy that had more merit previously when there were a lot more murmurs to collect. he lich process is so much faster than before. With the consolidation of the progression and kill nodes, it's really easy to get a pub group immediately (at least on PC) even at 4 AM. I'm sure this will slow down a bit to where one might wait a few minutes or need to advertise for a group but it still shouldn't be too hard to get help if one can't handle lich stuff solo or is still learning. There are enough players that it seems rather unlikely to end up with a pub completely full of people new to liches that can't handle the missions with just a sprinkle of teamwork going on.

 

I would say that at this point the strategy is still valid. the murmur level rebalancing just makes the alternative Equally Viable.

Having two working strategies is a good thing, Options, variety. Lets people enjoy different playstyles, you can rush the lich, or play the mastermind minigame.

People just need to learn that in Public Matchmaking you can encounter players using the opposite style who you aren't the boss of, and respect each other's choices.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I would say that at this point the strategy is still valid. the murmur level rebalancing just makes the alternative Equally Viable.

Having two working strategies is a good thing, Options, variety. Lets people enjoy different playstyles, you can rush the lich, or play the mastermind minigame.

People just need to learn that in Public Matchmaking you can encounter players using the opposite style who you aren't the boss of, and respect each other's choices.

This is precisely why having different--opposed--strategies is not a good thing for public games.

[Hobie-wan]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

People just need to learn that in Public Matchmaking you can encounter players using the opposite style who you aren't the boss of, and respect each other's choices.

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I'm the one with the different opinion on the best way to do a mission (stuff other than liches mostly), I'm just saying that it would be good for some to unlearn some stuff that made more sense with the previously longer murmur collection and trying to let more thralls spawn in a single mission.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

45 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

If you like sophistry for the sake of sophistry then it's no wonder that straightforward concepts aren't your thing.

noun: sophistry

the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.

I don't think you know what that word means....

I didn't try deceive anyone, but I didn't know you would jump back and forth between solo and pug. I don't bother, I just go to pug, if ppl stab I get murmur, if ppl don't stab I understand and keep it moving. 

Well if you play that way then sure, compare to you I'm leeching. Keep it up, more power to you.

Still didn't lie

45 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

Don't know what sort of situation you are referecing, you go solo when you are about to unlock a word, not just because lich might spawn.

Doesn't matter now, it's about sth you said "giving back". Tell you the truth I did not expect ppl to play the way you play, that's too much effort for this game to me.

Just curious tho, if I leech off other ppl and let other ppl leech off me, does that count as "give back" or "I scratch your back, you scratch mine"?

45 minutes ago, Trvldl said:

Bad analogy. A rock comes at your team and everyone is supposed to stop it together, but at the last moment you step back and put the burden on everyone else.

Also bad analogy, in our case I'll suffer more if we stop it together.

I'll revise.

The rock coming at 4 of us, if we stop the rock together you 3 will be fine, I will be critically injured. If I dodge, you 3 will be minor injured. Yeah bruh I'm dodging.

[Trvldl]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.

I don't think you know what that word means....

Exactly what i meant.

30 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

Also bad analogy, in our case I'll suffer more if we stop it together.

Better than yours, by rock i mean the whole process and not a single instance of spawn.

30 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

Doesn't matter now, it's about sth you said "giving back". Tell you the truth I did not expect ppl to play the way you play, that's too much effort for this game to me.

Not more effort at all. Most people play like that because it just works better. Even if you need to stab your nemesis 1 times more on average you can afford that as you aren't wasting rage and stab at lower rage on average, which means it starts filling again faster.

30 minutes ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

The rock coming at 4 of us, if we stop the rock together you 3 will be fine, I will be critically injured. If I dodge, you 3 will be minor injured. Yeah bruh I'm dodging.

That's sophistry by definition, you are continuing to engage in it. Your "analogy" references different categories of events as if it is one and same.

You are just posting garbage offtopic at this point.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

2 hours ago, Trvldl said:

Exactly what i meant.

But there was no argument....I tell you under what scenario I would not stab. I'm just stating a fact, as to give you some information, there's no argument. And you said it's sophistry, which is a word to describe a way of arguing....

 

2 hours ago, Trvldl said:

Better than yours, by rock i mean the whole process and not a single instance of spawn.

A. didn't say your are not better, just still not good. I realize my original analogy was over simplified so I revised it.

B. It doesn't matter if the rock is the whole process or a single instance, you can't effect a single instance without effect the whole process, why do you want to clear that up? It was never in the discussion. 

2 hours ago, Trvldl said:

That's sophistry by definition, you are continuing to engage in it. Your "analogy" references different categories of events as if it is one and same.

You are just posting garbage offtopic at this point.

A. Chill

B. Got nothing better to say do ya...

C. Your comment is as vague as it gets. You are just saying stuff that can apply to anything.

I can just say

"That's sophistry by definition, you are the one actually engage in it. You say my "analogy" references different categories in reality it's one and same.

You are just posting garbage off topic at this point."

see...

 

Bruh how do we ever get to this point...

I just wanted to make 2 points. 

1. more that 2 reasons to not stab

2. Self serving players is majority.

Only the second one is directed to you, and it's an opinion based on my world view, not data. 

Then you said no cus you see way more ppl stab than don't, and I said that proof nothing.

...And now we are here to arguing what sophistry means....

I admit from the forth post I'm just engaging in the sake of getting the last word, in reality this really doesn't matter. It's not like anyone can change anyone's mind. I don't oppose to the change what so ever, so what are we even doing....

But if you really want to keep this going till the mod lock the thread the sure, arguing for the sake of arguing is fun, and don't worry I won't use any assaulting words, they are for ppl losing the argument.

[Trvldl]

9 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

But there was no argument....I tell you under what scenario I would not stab. I'm just stating a fact, as to give you some information, there's no argument. And you said it's sophistry, which is a word to describe a way of arguing....

You are now saying that you aren't arguing with me, which is obviously sophistry, as it's a fallacious statement and an argument in itself.

9 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

C. Your comment is as vague as it gets. You are just saying stuff that can apply to anything. I can just say "That's sophistry by definition, you are the one actually engage in it. You say my "analogy" references different categories in reality it's one and same. You are just posting garbage off topic at this point." see...

I'm not the initiator of this garbage, yet you attempt to put the blame on me as much as on yourself, which is sophistry.

9 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

A. didn't say your are not better, just still not good. I realize my original analogy was over simplified so I revised it. B. It doesn't matter if the rock is the whole process or a single instance, you can't effect a single instance without effect the whole process, why do you want to clear that up? It was never in the discussion. 

Mine is good and better than yours as it is much simpler to grasp and involves whole process which is a context for a single spawn case, while yours ignores the context, which is sophistry.

12 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

The rock coming at 4 of us, if we stop the rock together you 3 will be fine, I will be critically injured. If I dodge, you 3 will be minor injured. Yeah bruh I'm dodging.

In your more recent "analogy" you mix up a single spawn instance with whole continuous process of adversary farm. By "stopping rock together" you reference whole process. Whether it be a single instance, it would've been your personal rock with only you taking decisions of stabbing and going solo, and your team can't just stab a lich for you in single instance, and therefore team can't "stop the rock together" in that case, which makes this part reference the whole process.

But then you proceed to reference a single spawn instance in "i will be critically injured, while if i dodge other 3 will be minor injured", because, as everyone eventually goes through the abovementioned decisions, the "injury" will not be worse for you than for everyone else during the whole farm continuity.

Therefore, in your "analogy" you have mixed up different categories of events, which is, as you've guessed, sophistry.

9 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

Bruh how do we ever get to this point...I just wanted to make 2 points. 1. more that 2 reasons to not stab 2. Self serving players is majority. Only the second one is directed to you, and it's an opinion based on my world view, not data. Then you said no cus you see way more ppl stab than don't, and I said that proof nothing.

You are just repeating your opinions and ignoring my arguments about minority being the self-serving one and not majority, self-serve being the decision to not return favors when expected. I'll give you one guess at what your reasoning is

Spoiler

it's sophistry

9 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

A. Chill B. Got nothing better to say do ya...

You have essentially admitted to leeching and baiting so far, it's already better than you deserve.

9 hours ago, (PSN)caoshen0625 said:

I'm just engaging in the sake of getting the last word

Any last words?

[keTch-uP]

I just wanted to say that I find it mind-boggling how people argue about this solution for three pages when it literally solves the problems for EVERYONE in public Nemesis parties.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

2 hours ago, Trvldl said:

You are now saying that you aren't arguing with me, which is obviously sophistry, as it's a fallacious statement and an argument in itself.

I was clearly stating that your sophistry comment was directed to my clarification, not my argument. 

Yet you completely ignore that, which is obviously sophistry.

2 hours ago, Trvldl said:

I'm not the initiator of this garbage, yet you attempt to put the blame on me as much as on yourself, which is sophistry.

Yeah but:

A. I don't think this is garbage, so when I'm saying this I'm not blaming anyone, because there's nothing to blame. You are the one putting this negative shroud over this analogy. So you are just projecting your own opinion of this analogy on me, and think I'm insulting you or blaming you, which is not true, also sophistry.

B. If mine was such "garbage", how come you didn't come back with a killer analogy...It's an opening and you missed it, that's on you.

2 hours ago, Trvldl said:

Mine is good and better than yours as it is much simpler to grasp and involves whole process which is a context for a single spawn case, while yours ignores the context, which is sophistry.

The whole point is that my way is better for me, and I already said MULTIPLE times that it is a hinder on others, yet you can not some how move pass this issue and still try to argue sth I'm not against, which is sophistry.

Also I still don't think you grasp what I do. Let me try another way, 22 liches, I remember I didn't stab 3 times. It usually take 3-4 stabs to kill a lich, let's just say 3. That's 3 times out of 66 I didn't stab, that's not even a blip on the whole process as you care so much about.

2 hours ago, Trvldl said:

In your more recent "analogy" you mix up a single spawn instance with whole continuous process of adversary farm. By "stopping rock together" you reference whole process. Whether it be a single instance, it would've been your personal rock with only you taking decisions of stabbing and going solo, and your team can't just stab a lich for you in single instance, and therefore team can't "stop the rock together" in that case, which makes this part reference the whole process.

But then you proceed to reference a single spawn instance in "i will be critically injured, while if i dodge other 3 will be minor injured", because, as everyone eventually goes through the abovementioned decisions, the "injury" will not be worse for you than for everyone else during the whole farm continuity.

Therefore, in your "analogy" you have mixed up different categories of events, which is, as you've guessed, sophistry.

Oh...I see now. First of all the 1st paragraph is weird. It surprise me that your mind just went there, that's not at all what I'm trying to say, but I guess it's the side effect of using analogy, shouldn't have started, my bad.

By "whole process" you mean "the player base farming lich" right? and if every one eventually critically hurt themselves then it's fair on the whole scale? If so then you are right, and I was never against that is was fair. What I've been saying is all on personal level. 

The problem is that for your plan to work everyone has to be on the same page, one person go rogue it'll spread like a plague and it'll never be contained again without outside intervention. And that plague has already started, it's up to DE to stop it or compensate the players, just like op suggested. So this is surprisingly not sophistry for you or me, just misunderstanding.

And to players like you that sacrifice your own time for the others I wanna say: "Thank you, but you don't have to, it's all good."

3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

In your more recent "analogy" you mix up a single spawn instance with whole continuous process of adversary farm. By "stopping rock together" you reference whole process. Whether it be a single instance, it would've been your personal rock with only you taking decisions of stabbing and going solo, and your team can't just stab a lich for you in single instance, and therefore team can't "stop the rock together" in that case, which makes this part reference the whole process.

But then you proceed to reference a single spawn instance in "i will be critically injured, while if i dodge other 3 will be minor injured", because, as everyone eventually goes through the abovementioned decisions, the "injury" will not be worse for you than for everyone else during the whole farm continuity.

Therefore, in your "analogy" you have mixed up different categories of events, which is, as you've guessed, sophistry.

You got no argument that's what I'm saying, it's right there in your quote, how did you miss that....

3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

You have essentially admitted to leeching and baiting so far, it's already better than you deserve.

A. I said BY YOUR DEFINITION I'm leeching.

B. You are not the moral judge of the player base.

C. BY MY DEFINITION I'm just a normal player that pugs all the time, you are a try hard. But don't change or anything, play however you want.

D. I said chill for your benefits. It's bad for your health, how are you using it like some type of punishment to me? Call me whatever name you want, this is the internet, I'm cool with it. 

E. I don't remember baiting tho, what I get from you is that we are both talking out of our own world view, if you can provide proof I'm happy to change my stand, I started in good faith, you are the one getting worked up for no reason. I've never call you names or anything like that.

F. Are you saying even tho you think I'm baiting you, you still ENGAGE me? Is that your strategy against trolls or baiters? Dude you need better ones, next time you see a troll just ignore or "LOL" him, engage just give them momentum. 

G. LOL

3 hours ago, Trvldl said:

Any last words?

A. English is not my first language, and sophistry is a new word for me. Thank you for introducing me to this word and showing me how to use it correctly. Our back and forth really give me a deep understanding of the word. 

B. LMAO

[FrostDragoon]

3 hours ago, keTch-uP said:

I just wanted to say that I find it mind-boggling how people argue about this solution for three pages when it literally solves the problems for EVERYONE in public Nemesis parties.

It's because we don't all agree that it does solve the problem. Some people here don't even agree it is a problem (and they are free to be wrong and voice their bad opinions).

[EinheriarJudith]

5 hours ago, keTch-uP said:

I just wanted to say that I find it mind-boggling how people argue about this solution for three pages when it literally solves the problems for EVERYONE in public Nemesis parties.

they are arguing for the sake of arguing. its a common thing here. voltages solution is a win for everyone. people refusing to understand well...... you know.....

[keTch-uP]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

It's because we don't all agree that it does solve the problem.

Please enlighten me, how on earth could the proposed solution possibly affect you in a negative way?

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

Some people here don't even agree it is a problem (and they are free to be wrong and voice their bad opinions).

If this isn't a problem for them they are just posting for the sake of arguing like Judith said and the solution wouldn't bother them.

[FrostDragoon]

Just now, keTch-uP said:

Please enlighten me, how on earth could the proposed solution possibly affect you in a negative way?

If this isn't a problem for them they are just posting for the sake of arguing like Judith said and the solution wouldn't bother them.

Because refusing to stab carries other consequences. I already addressed this in an earlier reply, but most of it has to do with borking spawns for other players.

[EinheriarJudith]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Because refusing to stab carries other consequences. I already addressed this in an earlier reply, but most of it has to do with borking spawns for other players.

then its on DE to fix it so it doesnt. DE created this problem. they get paid to fix it.

[keTch-uP]

10 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Because refusing to stab carries other consequences. I already addressed this in an earlier reply, but most of it has to do with borking spawns for other players.

I'll break it down for you:

Your scenario:

4 people in a party, a Nemesis spawns and the owner refuses to stab.

Owner rushes to the extract like you said, but he can't extract because the other 3 members want the murmurs from his Nemesis.

Rest of the party downs the Nemesis 3x and hopes the owner changes their mind but it doesn't happen and the Nemesis flees, nobody gets murmurs and everyones time is wasted.

 

Volt's scenario

4 people in a party, a Nemesis spawns and the owner refuses to stab.

Owner rushes to the extract like you said, but he can't extract because the other 3 members want the murmurs from his Nemesis.

Rest of the party downs the Nemesis 3x and don't care if the owner changes their mind because everyone except the owner gets murmurs on no stab and they leave the mission knowing it was worth to party because they wouldn't have gotten the murmurs if they didn't.

[Trvldl]

On 2021-07-19 at 12:10 AM, FrostDragoon said:

The bigger problem I've encountered with people refusing to stab is that they then bolt for extraction so nobody else gets their lich to spawn. Let's also not forget that this behavior was promoted by certain Youtubers as a way to game the system.

If extraction was available then it's better to just start another node with fresh gains from previous, you don't even lose time and get fresh spawn caps. In my experience your scenario happened 0 times so far, however.

I agree that lich spawn blocking is an issue, as is the separate extraction. That requires separate solutions, like lich spawn buffering, ways to speed up despawns and actual extraction prompt with "hold 5 sec to extract" for clients to disconnect on extraction zone manually. OP adresses confusion and waste of mission gains caused by skipping an expected stab, doesn't mean we can't have proposed fix just because other issues will get exposed.

 

[Vahenir]

Thinking into it a bit... Assuming this was changed to how your proposal is laid out then there would soon be a don't stab meta as that would mean more requiem progress for everyone. That is because liches would show up constantly and even if you didn't get the progress from your own, you'd still have a good chance to have three other liches show up that you do get progress from. So it'd be easy to just have a group farm their liches until they ran out of missions or unlocked all three requiems on rank 1.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb EinheriarJudith:

then its on DE to fix it so it doesnt. DE created this problem. they get paid to fix it.

Yes. and that shouldn't be possible at all!
weapon choice that is pure solo story!