Suggestion to add a mod that change the Shield Mechanics.

[(PSN)Visdomsord]

Shields are bad in warframe compaired to Health and Armor especially in Steel Path unless you abuse the shield gate mechanic which allows players to go as low shield as possible to reduce the recharge but this is at the moment most effective to frames with already low shields. I would suggest adding a new mod that looks like this:

Shield Arrays:
R1 adds an additional shield gate at 400 shield.
R2 adds additional shield gates at 400 and 900 shield.
R3 adds additional shield gates at 400 and 800 shield.
R4 adds additional shield gates at 400, 800 and 1200 shield.
R5 adds additional shield gates at 350, 750 and 1150 shield.
R6 adds additional shield gates at 350, 700 and 1100 shield.
R7 adds additional shield gates at 350, 700 and 1050 shield.
R8 adds additional shield gates at 300, 650 and 1000 shield.
R9 adds additional shield gates at 300, 600 and 950 shield.
R10 adds additional shield gates at 300, 600, 900 and 1200 shield.

This would allow shield frames to take a few more hits and be a bit more sturdier in combat but still not as tanks as the heaviest tanks as when their shields run out they still need to seek cover. 

What do you guys think of this idea?

[krc473]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Visdomsord said:

What do you guys think of this idea?

It is fine. I don't see the need for it at all, but I don't think it would hurt anything. You would also have to use percentage of total shields, not specific shield values. Otherwise the mod will be pretty much useless on most frames. 

• What is the point in a mod that grants you a shield gate at 600 shields if you don't have that much?

 

Here is what I would suggest to make it more useful:

Shield Arrays [all numbers are percentage of total shields]:
R1 adds an additional shield gate at 25% shield.
R2 adds additional shield gates at 25% and 55% shield.
R3 adds additional shield gates at 25% and 50% shield.
R4 adds additional shield gates at 25%, 50% and 80% shield.
R5 adds additional shield gates at 20%, 45% and 75% shield.
R6 adds additional shield gates at 20%, 40% and 70% shield.
R7 adds additional shield gates at 20%, 40% and 65% shield.
R8 adds additional shield gates at 15%, 35% and 60% shield.
R9 adds additional shield gates at 15%, 30% and 55% shield.
R10 adds additional shield gates at 15%, 30%, 55% and 80% shield.

 

That way any frame could make use of the mod at all levels. Otherwise you are stuck needing many duplicates of the mod at a variety of levels. It would be such an annoying mod to have.

[(PSN)Visdomsord]

4 minutes ago, krc473 said:

It is fine. I don't see the need for it at all, but I don't think it would hurt anything. You would also have to use percentage of total shields, not specific shield values. Otherwise the mod will be pretty much useless on most frames. 

• What is the point in a mod that grants you a shield gate at 600 shields if you don't have that much?

 

Here is what I would suggest to make it more useful:

Shield Arrays [all numbers are percentage of total shields]:
R1 adds an additional shield gate at 25% shield.
R2 adds additional shield gates at 25% and 55% shield.
R3 adds additional shield gates at 25% and 50% shield.
R4 adds additional shield gates at 25%, 50% and 80% shield.
R5 adds additional shield gates at 20%, 45% and 75% shield.
R6 adds additional shield gates at 20%, 40% and 70% shield.
R7 adds additional shield gates at 20%, 40% and 65% shield.
R8 adds additional shield gates at 15%, 35% and 60% shield.
R9 adds additional shield gates at 15%, 30% and 55% shield.
R10 adds additional shield gates at 15%, 30%, 55% and 80% shield.

 

That way any frame could make use of the mod at all levels. Otherwise you are stuck needing many duplicates of the mod at a variety of levels. It would be such an annoying mod to have.

The point being is that shield focused frames has no use of armor. This mod is not for HP and Armor focused frames, it is suppose to benefit the frames that has a lot of shields, not make the best frames even better. 

[krc473]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Visdomsord said:

The point being is that shield focused frames has no use of armor. This mod is not for HP and Armor focused frames, it is suppose to benefit the frames that has a lot of shields, not make the best frames even better. 

You would need to change the numbers a bit then. Most frames could not make full use of the mod. It seems like the mod is going to be something that has a very limited use. Possibly to the point of not being worth having.

[DroopingPuppy]

While the idea seems interesting, need to reach some numeric value in order to use seems... well, not something we wish to get.

 

Still, there is Internal Bleeding that gives additional benefit for the weapon with fire rate below 2.5, so perhaps needs for some shield may acceptable, but it it does it would be better to give the additional benefit for the warframes with base shield of x or more, rather than simply a fixed value of shield.

For example, R10 adds an another shield gating on 50% shield, with 180 second cooldown(90 second when base shield is more than 400). In this case, Frost, Gauss, Harrow, Hildryn, Mag, Protea, Revenant, Rhino, Yareli, Zephyr,  Volt, and Atlas Prime, Ivara Prime, Nekros Prime, Trinity Prime will get the additional bonus on level 30.

 

[(PSN)Visdomsord]

3 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

While the idea seems interesting, need to reach some numeric value in order to use seems... well, not something we wish to get.

 

Still, there is Internal Bleeding that gives additional benefit for the weapon with fire rate below 2.5, so perhaps needs for some shield may acceptable, but it it does it would be better to give the additional benefit for the warframes with base shield of x or more, rather than simply a fixed value of shield.

For example, R10 adds an another shield gating on 50% shield, with 180 second cooldown(90 second when base shield is more than 400). In this case, Frost, Gauss, Harrow, Hildryn, Mag, Protea, Revenant, Rhino, Yareli, Zephyr,  Volt, and Atlas Prime, Ivara Prime, Nekros Prime, Trinity Prime will get the additional bonus on level 30.

 

How about this then this will make it worth investing some in shields:
R1 - R10  when an attack causes your shields go to 66% or 33% the rest of the damage from that attack and further damage taken to your shields is reduced by 25...80% for 4 seconds.

[Yamazuki]

Shieldgate already makes dying impossible to anything but Toxin as long as you're paying attention. 

If that's not enough, you can already mod for additional survivability as is, or use defensive mechanics that every Warframe has; given even the uncommon instance of none, Operator fills that.

[(PSN)Visdomsord]

On 2021-08-09 at 1:16 AM, Yamazuki said:

Shieldgate already makes dying impossible to anything but Toxin as long as you're paying attention. 

If that's not enough, you can already mod for additional survivability as is, or use defensive mechanics that every Warframe has; given even the uncommon instance of none, Operator fills that.

Yes, exactly shield gating is great, gives low shield characters an edge over high shield characters. What reason is there, if any to increase your shields instead of going for high HP and Armor in steel path? In higher SP 1000 shield easily gets one shot, there is no reason what so ever to increase it only to lower it to make shield gate trigger more often. Shields works fine in normal play but not in SP, but maybe that is how it is supposed to be.

[Steel_Rook]

I'd personally rather not rely even more heavily on the shield gate. That's a kludge mechanic put in place to make up for shields in this game sucking ass in high level. I'd personally much rather directly address shields as a mechanic than add even more workarounds. Not to say the idea is necessarily bad, so much as it's "a bad habit" for developers.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'd personally rather not rely even more heavily on the shield gate. That's a kludge mechanic put in place to make up for shields in this game sucking ass in high level. I'd personally much rather directly address shields as a mechanic than add even more workarounds. Not to say the idea is necessarily bad, so much as it's "a bad habit" for developers.

Agreed perhaps a damage reduction mod/arcane or armor now applies to the shield. 

Currently armor doesn't effect shields so perhaps something that applies an armor value to them while also putting something like toxin no longer bypasses would make shield frames more useful. 

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Agreed perhaps a damage reduction mod/arcane or armor now applies to the shield. 

Personally, I'd just like to speed up shield regen. My old-old idea was to remove shield recharge delay entirely and just let out shields recharge constantly. Enemies deal enough damage to blow through shields easily, so they'd serve as the "ablative layer" they were designed to be. Alternately, you can go with the Payday 2 system where shields recharge on a delay but recover to full as soon as that delay expires. This sort of change is what I'm referring to here. Shields can be made into a powerful defensive layer if players can get enough capacity/recharge, I think. Shield gates and shield damage resistance both feel like stopgaps to try and make up for their fundamentally dysfunctional core mechanics.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Personally, I'd just like to speed up shield regen. My old-old idea was to remove shield recharge delay entirely and just let out shields recharge constantly. Enemies deal enough damage to blow through shields easily, so they'd serve as the "ablative layer" they were designed to be. Alternately, you can go with the Payday 2 system where shields recharge on a delay but recover to full as soon as that delay expires. This sort of change is what I'm referring to here. Shields can be made into a powerful defensive layer if players can get enough capacity/recharge, I think. Shield gates and shield damage resistance both feel like stopgaps to try and make up for their fundamentally dysfunctional core mechanics.

Constant recharge sounds broken with our current shield gate.  However, I think it is important to note the purpose of shield gating was to stop one shot mechanics.

As you said things are dysfunctional at it's core. So I don't see them abandoning the current systems which include shield gate for something like constantly recharging or instantly recharging shields.  Because in order to make them useful everything in regards to damage, health, and enemy AI would need to be looked at. Otherwise no matter what you could be instantly one shot by enemies in high level content.

I'm not saying that it is a bad idea.  Just that on multiple occasions DE has stated they aren't going to upend the core of the game for what looks like a small change on paper. 

Better damage reduction on shields I personally feel would be the easiest way to make a higher shield value relevant. 

My lazy idea would just be a mod or arcane that says armor dr applies to shields with any frame with a shield value over say... 400-500 getting a bonus 225 to base armor. That would make many frames that have naturally higher shields feel better in regards to modding for shields.  Without immediately shifting the meta to high shield over high health and armor. 

[(PSN)Visdomsord]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Constant recharge sounds broken with our current shield gate.  However, I think it is important to note the purpose of shield gating was to stop one shot mechanics.

As you said things are dysfunctional at it's core. So I don't see them abandoning the current systems which include shield gate for something like constantly recharging or instantly recharging shields.  Because in order to make them useful everything in regards to damage, health, and enemy AI would need to be looked at. Otherwise no matter what you could be instantly one shot by enemies in high level content.

I'm not saying that it is a bad idea.  Just that on multiple occasions DE has stated they aren't going to upend the core of the game for what looks like a small change on paper. 

Better damage reduction on shields I personally feel would be the easiest way to make a higher shield value relevant. 

My lazy idea would just be a mod or arcane that says armor dr applies to shields with any frame with a shield value over say... 400-500 getting a bonus 225 to base armor. That would make many frames that have naturally higher shields feel better in regards to modding for shields.  Without immediately shifting the meta to high shield over high health and armor. 

I posted this earlier and I actually think it is better than my suggestion in my original post:

R1 - R10  when an attack causes your shields go to 66% and 33% the rest of the damage from that attack and further damage taken to your shields is reduced by [25...80%] for 4 seconds.

I don't think it should apply armor though as shield frames typically have low armor and HP.

[Leqesai]

Look, the game is piss-easy at this point in its development. We need to stop begging for significant power boosts like this and retune the game to there is a semblance of challenge again.

Our Warframes are stronger than they ever have been. Nearly every frame is tanky beyond expectation because of the plethora of powerful mods we have available and subsume options with Helminth.

I say ditch the asinine shield gating altogether and reintroduce self-damage with AOE weapons. There is barely any "risk=reward" in Warframe anymore and quite frankly anything outside of Steel Path offers little to no challenge whatsoever because of all the training wheels we've been given. DE has no idea how to balance this game (I'm not suggesting remove the power fantasy. I'm talking about making their core systems work in a manner conducive to healthy power creep) and if they don't do something about it they're going to inevitably kill it. They have the adolescent viewpoint that content is more important than cohesiveness, coherency, and functionality. We've been slow-burned for years by poor development and the solution is absolutely not "give me more power". 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Visdomsord said:

I posted this earlier and I actually think it is better than my suggestion in my original post:

R1 - R10  when an attack causes your shields go to 66% and 33% the rest of the damage from that attack and further damage taken to your shields is reduced by [25...80%] for 4 seconds.

I don't think it should apply armor though as shield frames typically have low armor and HP.

 

I just suggested armor as an easily definable way to get DR of some form on shields but any damage reduction of some kind in general would go a long way to make a high shield value feel useful on frames that aren't hildryn. 

 

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Look, the game is piss-easy at this point in its development. We need to stop begging for significant power boosts like this and retune the game to there is a semblance of challenge again.

Our Warframes are stronger than they ever have been. Nearly every frame is tanky beyond expectation because of the plethora of powerful mods we have available and subsume options with Helminth.

I say ditch the asinine shield gating altogether and reintroduce self-damage with AOE weapons. There is barely any "risk=reward" in Warframe anymore and quite frankly anything outside of Steel Path offers little to no challenge whatsoever because of all the training wheels we've been given. DE has no idea how to balance this game (I'm not suggesting remove the power fantasy. I'm talking about making their core systems work in a manner conducive to healthy power creep) and if they don't do something about it they're going to inevitably kill it. They have the adolescent viewpoint that content is more important than cohesiveness, coherency, and functionality. We've been slow-burned for years by poor development and the solution is absolutely not "give me more power". 

 

I get where you are coming from but I believe OP's point was just to introduce something that makes modding for shields or using warframes that have higher shields a more meaningful choice. So I see this less of a give me more power as much as make things equally powerful. 

I think the risk vs reward equation is why DE has felt they need to hand hold so much.  Failure in this game is really frustrating. So to keep players from giving up they continue to decrease probability of failure. Alternatively they could decrease cost of failure while making it more common with "difficulty".

Either by giving some of the resources and affinity gained from a failed run or making revives infinite.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

 

I just suggested armor as an easily definable way to get DR of some form on shields but any damage reduction of some kind in general would go a long way to make a high shield value feel useful on frames that aren't hildryn. 

 

 

I get where you are coming from but I believe OP's point was just to introduce something that makes modding for shields or using warframes that have higher shields a more meaningful choice. So I see this less of a give me more power as much as make things equally powerful. 

I think the risk vs reward equation is why DE has felt they need to hand hold so much.  Failure in this game is really frustrating. So to keep players from giving up they continue to decrease probability of failure. Alternatively they could decrease cost of failure while making it more common with "difficulty".

Either by giving some of the resources and affinity gained from a failed run or making revives infinite.

I see where you are coming from. I think shield gating of any kind is overkill. Especially now since shields are tankier, we have adaptation and pillage is subsumable.

[(PSN)Visdomsord]

On 2021-08-11 at 10:09 AM, Leqesai said:

Look, the game is piss-easy at this point in its development. We need to stop begging for significant power boosts like this and retune the game to there is a semblance of challenge again.

Our Warframes are stronger than they ever have been. Nearly every frame is tanky beyond expectation because of the plethora of powerful mods we have available and subsume options with Helminth.

I say ditch the asinine shield gating altogether and reintroduce self-damage with AOE weapons. There is barely any "risk=reward" in Warframe anymore and quite frankly anything outside of Steel Path offers little to no challenge whatsoever because of all the training wheels we've been given. DE has no idea how to balance this game (I'm not suggesting remove the power fantasy. I'm talking about making their core systems work in a manner conducive to healthy power creep) and if they don't do something about it they're going to inevitably kill it. They have the adolescent viewpoint that content is more important than cohesiveness, coherency, and functionality. We've been slow-burned for years by poor development and the solution is absolutely not "give me more power". 

Can agree with this, removing the shield Gate completly would be a step in the right direction. However SP has a problem with how the powerbalance is noone really uses shield frames in SP unless they like dying alot while hp + armor rules supreme. Maybe nerf the armor and hp instead?

 

My suggestion was only to make more frames available to sp. I do not want to give the current meta frames anything as it is as you implied a walk in the park, the reason I posted this in the first place was that I've been running high hp & armor myself and it is a breeze but then I though why not try a high shield frame in a sp disruption mission, it was barely playable in solo at all. It was only shieldgate time that kept me alive once it was out I had to switch to operator to even have a chance of surviving. Maybe it is how the endgame should be, but it was a very hard contrast from playing hp + armor frames. Maybe change toxic status effect to make healing impossible for balance sake.

18 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

 

I just suggested armor as an easily definable way to get DR of some form on shields but any damage reduction of some kind in general would go a long way to make a high shield value feel useful on frames that aren't hildryn. 

 

 

I get where you are coming from but I believe OP's point was just to introduce something that makes modding for shields or using warframes that have higher shields a more meaningful choice. So I see this less of a give me more power as much as make things equally powerful. 

I think the risk vs reward equation is why DE has felt they need to hand hold so much.  Failure in this game is really frustrating. So to keep players from giving up they continue to decrease probability of failure. Alternatively they could decrease cost of failure while making it more common with "difficulty".

Either by giving some of the resources and affinity gained from a failed run or making revives infinite.

Maybe change it so that in my mod suggestion shields gain DR equal to [50...200]% of warframes armor DR equivalent while still keeping it as a temporary timed effect. Shields are not suppose to be as durable as HP + Armor as they recharge by themselves.

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Visdomsord said:

Can agree with this, removing the shield Gate completly would be a step in the right direction. However SP has a problem with how the powerbalance is noone really uses shield frames in SP unless they like dying alot while hp + armor rules supreme. Maybe nerf the armor and hp instead?

 

My suggestion was only to make more frames available to sp. I do not want to give the current meta frames anything as it is as you implied a walk in the park, the reason I posted this in the first place was that I've been running high hp & armor myself and it is a breeze but then I though why not try a high shield frame in a sp disruption mission, it was barely playable in solo at all. It was only shieldgate time that kept me alive once it was out I had to switch to operator to even have a chance of surviving. Maybe it is how the endgame should be, but it was a very hard contrast from playing hp + armor frames. Maybe change toxic status effect to make healing impossible for balance sake.

Funnily enough the best tanks in the game, as far as I'm concerned, don't exclusively include high HP high armor frames.

Nova, for example, is right up there with Inaros if you build her for tankiness. Hildryn is beyond Inaros by a pretty healthy margin.
This is because shields can be extremely resistant to damage and if you have some way to regenerate them constantly you have a pretty big EHP pool to dig into. Nova's Null Star gives a big layer of damage reduction that affects shield damage and when you pair this with adaptation she is very tough to kill. Subsume Pillage onto her and she has a way of filling overshields instantly in SP missions. 

Hildryn is the tankiest frame in the game, as far as I'm concerned. Her huge shield pool and innate access to pillage make her pretty ridiculous.

[DoomFruit]

I'd rather have a mod that gives me the same shields as those stupid gimpy accountant things that carry corpus coins.

Namely, that they have 99.9% damage resistance and zero recharge delay.