Murmur Requirements: Lich vs Sister

[LucianDeRomeo]

So maybe I'm just blind but I can't seem to find on the Wiki how many Murmurs you need for each Requim reveal for the respective Nemesis targets. Anyone have that info handy? I've also tried scouring the patch notes for the Sisters because I could have sworn I read(though maybe it was just a comment I heard from Reb or one of the others on a stream) that the requirements for both were supposed to be the same, and while it does feel like Liches take far less time since the Sisters update it also feels like the Sisters take even less(though that may be personal bias from my over 20 liches slain and only 5 sisters thus far). Without the data it's hard to say if I'm imagining it or not but a buddy says he feels a Lich still takes way too long and much longer then a sister and his numbers are basically the reverse of mine.

[AlyxisPrime]

I don't know how many murmurs are needed for each, I'll look into and get to back to you.

I do know that thralls give less progress per murmur than hounds, but more thralls spawn per mission than hounds.
From the wiki:  Up to a maximum of 10 Thralls can spawn in a mission naturally, and a Kuva Lich is also limited to enthralling 10 enemies, thus up to 20 Thralls can be encountered in a given Kuva Lich-controlled node should the Kuva Lich spawn in the mission. However, enthralled enemies count towards the mission's natural Thrall limit, so the maximum of 20 can only be reached if all 10 Thralls have already spawned in the mission before the Kuva Lich enthralls any enemies.

I seem to think that about 4 or 5 hound spawn in comparison, with an additional 1 should the Sister show up.

In my experience, Liches and Sisters take the same amount of time to finish, Liches only feel longer because you kill more thralls to get the same murmur progress.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Sisters are definately faster.   You can farm 2 murmurs before you stab your Sister for the 1st time and then you could just try sequences back to back if you didnt have to wait for aggro.   I wish the Ultimatum item was infinite use,  I would use the hell out of mine.  

I've only done one new brother and it pretty much felt the same as before.  I definately wasnt needing ultimatums to speed up the process.  The murmurs flow slower and so my lich naturally builds up his aggro.    (I was alone for alot of my brother murmur farm tho....   Sisters usually have alot more activity)

[LucianDeRomeo]

11 hours ago, AlyxisPrime said:

I do know that thralls give less progress per murmur than hounds, but more thralls spawn per mission than hounds.

So this is part of what I suspected, unfortunately the Wiki uses the same exact values between the 2, both pages stating a Hound/Thrall grants 1 Murmur while Testing a Requiem on a Sister/Lich grants 10 Murmurs.

Now if this was true then the fact you can potentially get more Thralls in a Single mission then hounds would make you think Lichs would go faster IF they both require the same numbers. I do know each 'failed attempt' at a Sister or even simply depleting a life bar and not going for the Mercy seems to trigger her spawning another hound(some testing is still required but it's an observation I've taken note of several times), and on the flip side should you mercy a sister active hounds all 'self destruct'(or so far I've noticed this and it is often triggered by a voice line by the sister, perhaps some personalities/quirks are an exception to be more interesting but I doubt it) where as after Mercying a Lich the thralls persist to be cleaned up in a more calm fashion. The more I think about it the bigger the differences between the 2 seem to be and the less I like it lol.

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, LucianDeRomeo said:

both pages stating a Hound/Thrall grants 1 Murmur

I think this is slightly confusing wording on the Wiki's part.

Both only grant one Murmur, but DE did state on the DevStreams when discussing Sisters that the amount of Murmurs needed is specifically lower for Sisters.

The only hard numbers we've ever heard from DE were 'theoretical'. This was when they were discussing the original Murmur farms for the Liches and when they rebalanced the process to make the first Requiem take less time, the second take a normal time and the last requiem take longer (before that, they were all the same length and took more overall).

In that discussion they prefaced the comment with 'For example, if' and then said something to the theme of: the first Requiem takes forty, the second would take fifty and the third would take sixty, in relation to how many Murmurs you needed.

Meaning that these were not the exact numbers and they were only representative of the scaling. The Sisters of Parvos discussions on the DevStream said that these would be further lightened for Liches to make them faster, with more Thralls spawning and so on, which is where people were motivated to test and map the Thrall Spawning that Alyxis mentioned before.

It is strange that none of the players have, thus far, simply counted the number of stabs they've done to get to the Requiem tallies without confronting their Lich or Sister...

Then again, the Rage meter on them now means that they absolutely must spawn before the end of the Planet they're currently occupying, so even with DE saying that the confrontation/testing a Requiem grants 10 Murmurs, it can throw off the count a little.

Also with everyone testing out Oull for the wildcard... that can make things a little easier on the farm and people would be less worried about counting.

[LucianDeRomeo]

On 2021-08-15 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

It is strange that none of the players have, thus far, simply counted the number of stabs they've done to get to the Requiem tallies without confronting their Lich or Sister.

So I've actually tried doing this for the last 3 Liches I've had and setting aside the fact I've proven to be a HORRIBLE record keeper for fast paced things like this(on multiple occasions I straight up couldn't remember how many stabs I did once a mission ended so I resorted to tally marks on scratch paper) it also doesn't seem to be even, though that may be some sort of miscounting part when I managed to 'accidentally' get the right Requiem as I'm not SO determined as to go in with a Requiem-less parazon. At least from the Wiki and what one might think of as common sense the number would just 'carry over' to the next Requiem but I'll keep plugging away at it. Once I get the Zarr and Grattler I'll be 'less annoyed' by the system overall and won't mind as much taking my sweet time working through it. Just wish DE would give us the hard numbers! I'm already annoyed enough about why the Sister need Requiems when there doesn't seem to be any connection between them and Kuva and this far Requiems are still 'unique' to Kuva Fortress Rifts(I know, silly me wanting some lore to back up these decisions/mechanics)

[AlyxisPrime]

OK, testing done.  I ignored both Sister and Lich, acquiring words solely through stabbing hounds/thralls.  I tried to wait long enough in the missions to reach the maximum spawn for each.  10 thralls and 4 hounds, except when the Lich/Sister showed adding 10 and 2 respectively.  It took roughly the same number of missions to complete both, each of them reaching only level 2 as I cleared their starting planet and then knew all 3 words before clearing the second planet.
These numbers may be off by 1 or 2.  Keeping track of how many I stabbed was sometimes difficult due to the mission type. (I'm looking at you, disruption)

Sister: 
1st word - 7
2nd word - 12
3rd word - 18

Lich:
1st word - 27
2nd word - 35
3rd word - 60

[Slayer-.]

10 hours ago, AlyxisPrime said:

OK, testing done.  I ignored both Sister and Lich, acquiring words solely through stabbing hounds/thralls.  I tried to wait long enough in the missions to reach the maximum spawn for each.  10 thralls and 4 hounds, except when the Lich/Sister showed adding 10 and 2 respectively.  It took roughly the same number of missions to complete both, each of them reaching only level 2 as I cleared their starting planet and then knew all 3 words before clearing the second planet.
These numbers may be off by 1 or 2.  Keeping track of how many I stabbed was sometimes difficult due to the mission type. (I'm looking at you, disruption)

Sister: 
1st word - 7
2nd word - 12
3rd word - 18

Lich:
1st word - 27
2nd word - 35
3rd word - 60

I reckon yours is more how I feel they are, Kuva Lich's are still way slower than a Sister.

[AlyxisPrime]

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

I reckon yours is more how I feel they are, Kuva Lich's are still way slower than a Sister

After what I've just experience, I have to disagree.  It really did take me the same amount of time to do both.  I do think though that sheer number of thralls you stab makes it feel longer.

[Slayer-.]

2 hours ago, AlyxisPrime said:

After what I've just experience, I have to disagree.  It really did take me the same amount of time to do both.  I do think though that sheer number of thralls you stab makes it feel longer.

My Lich missions I've observed is solely as a Solo player.

I have to disagree also given how many times I've done a Kuva Lich in the past and in the present, it's only slightly faster than it used to be, still slower than a Sister, I can get a circle completed in around three missions with a Sister, where a Kuva Lich takes a lot of missions, now you also need to factor in if you get lucky that the Kuva Lich when he spawns in if you happen to have a lot of enemies around then yes it can speed it up a little bit.

I'm just going to say a little bit of luck is factored in if you get a good run or a bad run with Kuva Lich's, where as the Sisters are just awesome to do anytime of the day or night. 

 

[CephalonCarnage]

15 hours ago, AlyxisPrime said:

I do think though that sheer number of thralls you stab makes it feel longer

or that most people speedrun missions so those exterminate or capture runs they love so much only net you 3 ro 4 thralls instead of the ten. Thus it doesn't just feel longer, it is longer. And that's not the game's fault.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

I think Sisters are more Rushable than Liches.

at the start of any mission, a Thrall/Hound spawns

but hounds are worth 5x a thrall

so with a Sister, you can speedrun missions at like 2mins each getting 5murmur minimum, usually 10 cause a 2nd hound will appear.

but with a Lich you have to stick around and wait for individual thralls to spawn, with like a 20second delay. That's a huge amount of time spent vs the equivalent for hounds.

 

There's also the problem of Stab Failing being the new Public Matchmaking strategy. People are eager to just down and stab ASAP to get the fail bonus of 10 murmur. They seem to forget that Liches will Convert nearby grineer into upto 10 Thralls.