Seeing as you, DE, are not going to do more than number bumps for Yareli's abilities, can we at least get 90-95% Damage Reduction on Merulina?

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

See title.

Yes, there are definitely way more, way more, buffs that Yareli need, but it would at least (seeing as we're not getting more than "at least" because New War) be neat if Merulina offered enough protection to consistently defend Yareli.

For comparison:
Ember: 90% cap on Immolation.
Gara: 90% cap on Splinter Storm.
Nezha: 90% base on Warding Halo.
Nidus: 90% cap on Parasitic Link.
Nova: 90% soft cap on Null Star.
Mesa: 95% cap on Shatter Shield.
Mirage: 95% cap on Eclipse.
Trinity: 95% cap with Link plus Blessing.
Baruuk: 90% max from Desolate Hands alone, not to mention Restraint and Serene Storm.

Compared to these defenses, Yareli takes 250% the damage that Nezha or Gara takes, and 500% the damage that Mesa or Mirage takes. That's how awful 75% damage reduction is, and unlike many of the abilities above, damage reduction (with a health bar) is all that Merulina does. Considering that it gives "mobility" at the cost of usable weapons, a fair comparison might be to Iron Skin, another ability that only does damage reduction with a health bar. If Iron Skin can effectively have 100% damage reduction, why can't Merulina?

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

can we at least get 90-95% Damage Reduction on Merulina?

If you properly read the Wiki you would know its not actually "Damage Reduction" , 75% of the Damage done to Yareli goes to Merulina, the other 25% is done directly to Yareli, so it functions more like Nekros with the Shield of Shadows augment sending most of the damage to another entity.

Due to how cheep it is to cast her 2nd ability and that it lasts indefinitely, i dont see any need to increase the amount of damage split. 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

9 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

If you properly read the Wiki you would know its not actually "Damage Reduction" , 75% of the Damage done to Yareli goes to Merulina, the other 25% is done directly to Yareli, so it functions more like Nekros with the Shield of Shadows augment sending most of the damage to another entity.

If you properly read the Wiki, you would know that what you're describing is also how Warding Halo and Iron Skin works - 90%/100% of the Damage done to Nezha/Rhino goes to WH/IS, the other 10%/0% is done directly to Nezha/Rhino so it functions more like them than Shield of Shadows because, and I'd love to see proof of the contrary here, enemies do not directly attack the entity in question.

(Edit: Oh, and would you look at that, Shield of Shadows also caps out at 90% damage reduction. Gee, what a surprise.)

9 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Due to how cheep it is to cast her 2nd ability and that it lasts indefinitely, i dont see any need to increase the amount of damage split. 

Due to how cheap it is to cast Iron Skin compared to Warding Halo, and that it lasts indefinitely, do you see a need to decrease Iron Skin's damage split to 85%, then? The cost and duration of the ability are poor justifications for its effectiveness, not that those two bits aren't all over the place with Warframe abilities to begin with. The need or not need to increase the damage split comes down to two question:

Is the damage reduction to Yareli that comes from the split enough to consistently keep her alive? Is it on par with other Warframes with damage reduction? (inb4 more "but it's not damage reduction", it is, but with a separate health bar instead of a duration.)

The answer to the second question, as shown in my original post, is a clear "no". To the former, let's look at a couple of setups. With a full Umbral Vitality and Umbral Fiber, Yareli has an effective health of 2184, meaning that she gets one-shot (excluding shields) through Merulina if she takes an 8732 damage hit. Nezha, with the same effective health, gets one-shot (excluding shields) through Warding Halo if he takes a 21830 damage hit. From what I can find regarding enemy damage scaling, a Bombard can one-shot the Yareli starting at level 358, while it's ability to one-shot the Nezha starts at level 643 - about 1.8 times higher. Of course, this assumes both the Nezha and the Yareli are constantly at full health, something that's more easily done for Nezha since, well, he takes less damage per hit.

But if you ask me, it just comes down to the simple question of why Yareli's damage reduction/distribution/whatever-you-wanna-call-it should be so much lower than the other options. The answer is that it shouldn't, that's bad game balance, so buff it.

[sunderthefirmament]

9 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

 

Due to how cheep it is to cast her 2nd ability and that it lasts indefinitely, i dont see any need to increase the amount of damage split. 

It's cheap in terms of energy, but incredibly expensive in other ways.  It costs you damage, as you can only use secondaries.  It costs you mobility, as it is terrible to control in air, has piss poor turning/handling, and is very fiddly with doors.  It also costs you time, as you will quite likely fall through the map at least once per mission, requiring a slash unstuck to fix.  If it fixes it.  It also costs you a lot of PRESS X TO INTERACT opportunities, which might matter or not depending on the mission.  And if you want to use your operator for any reason, it costs the energy cost again because she will hop off of Merulina.

 

I intend to give Yareli another chance when the update lands, but I'm not optimistic about her relevance.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And if you want to use your operator for any reason, it costs the energy cost again because she will hop off of Merulina.

Oh yeah, something I forgot to mention, because Merulina has no absorption period, like Warding Halo and Iron Skin both have, you will see yourself recasting it a lot more often to keep it up.

[Yuzuki-Prime]

Buffs are coming to Yareli 👍

Before going off on tirades calling out DE and then giving overly defensive responses to people who reply to you, can you wait until the buffs are actually released?
You are criticizing something that doesn't exist yet.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

8 minutes ago, Yuzuki-Prime said:

Buffs are coming to Yareli 👍

Before going off on tirades calling out DE and then giving overly defensive responses to people who reply to you, can you wait until the buffs are actually released?
You are criticizing something that doesn't exist yet.

Oh yeah, my bad, I totally forgot about that. Let's look at all those upcoming Merulina stat buffs again, shall we?

Quote

Merulina:
-

[Yuzuki-Prime]

8 minutes ago, Yuzuki-Prime said:

and then giving overly defensive responses to people who reply to you

Good luck, bud. 👍

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

16 minutes ago, Yuzuki-Prime said:

26 minutes ago, Yuzuki-Prime said:

and then giving overly defensive responses to people who reply to you

Good luck, bud. 👍

The irony of this response coming from someone who's only contribution to this thread is defending DE while not commenting directly on the topic.

Keep up the good work, mate. 👍

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, Yuzuki-Prime said:

Good luck, bud. 👍

To be totally fair, waifu's argument and reasoning on this is solid.

Meulina has some significant drawbacks that dont justify its low damage absorption, low health pool, and no absorption period.

Similar abilities on other frames have nowhere near the downsides of merulina while also offering better core defensive functionality.

Tbh if merulina gives a 75% dodge chance while in motion on top of the damage absorption it would be much better and thematic to yarelis movement style gameplay.

[sunderthefirmament]

10 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

De has been on the kick with making frames for some reason weaker and niche for the past few years. Why does this frame exist. i mean the majorly of players that play this game want old frames fixed to be nukers and to handle a sizeable amount of  content. Yareli  is one of the reasons i left this game for a year. DE whines about old content and fixing old frames making them less money.  but pushing out boring new content and  new frames that tend to just be played for a hour or two before going back to what works. 

Except Yareli really stands out because most recent frames were either decent on release or fixed shortly thereafter.

 

• Yareli: weak on release, immediately buffed, more buffs/fixes incoming 9/8
• Sevagoth: forma hungry, but very strong... some glitches on release w/ animations and Shadow
• Lavos: very strong on release, but some issues w/ AOE on his 4, Helminth-resistant frame
• Xaku: slightly weak on release (not as bad as Yareli) but buffed, now what I would consider overtuned
• Protea: slightly weak on release (again, not as bad as Yareli) but buffed, now very strong and useful
• Grendel: niche and energy intensive, but a hidden gem in terms of strength and utility, underrated
• Gauss: powerful weapons frame and low to mid level nuker, strong on release
• Wisp: unprecedented support frame, very strong on release
• Hildryn: somewhat arcane intensive, but very strong on release

 

I'm not going to go back any further than that, as Hildryn was released in early 2019.  On that list above, the only frames that people might argue are weak are Yareli and Grendel.  So even if someone disagrees with me about Grendel's strength, Yareli is still an outlier.

 

All of those frames have significant ways of scaling their power and utility into high level content... all of them except Yareli.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Except Yareli really stands out because most recent frames were either decent on release or fixed shortly thereafter.

 

• Yareli: weak on release, immediately buffed, more buffs/fixes incoming 9/8
• Sevagoth: forma hungry, but very strong... some glitches on release w/ animations and Shadow
• Lavos: very strong on release, but some issues w/ AOE on his 4, Helminth-resistant frame
• Xaku: slightly weak on release (not as bad as Yareli) but buffed, now what I would consider overtuned
• Protea: slightly weak on release (again, not as bad as Yareli) but buffed, now very strong and useful
• Grendel: niche and energy intensive, but a hidden gem in terms of strength and utility, underrated
• Gauss: powerful weapons frame and low to mid level nuker, strong on release
• Wisp: unprecedented support frame, very strong on release
• Hildryn: somewhat arcane intensive, but very strong on release

 

I'm not going to go back any further than that, as Hildryn was released in early 2019.  On that list above, the only frames that people might argue are weak are Yareli and Grendel.  So even if someone disagrees with me about Grendel's strength, Yareli is still an outlier.

 

All of those frames have significant ways of scaling their power and utility into high level content... all of them except Yareli.

If you consider strength (something like time to kill) then yeah, even Sevagoth is strong. However if you consider other factors then it's not so nice. Of course this things are somehow subjective. There is something like how boring/fun frame is.

IMHO it recent strike of "not so good frames" started with Sevagoth. You've got boring melee (compare it to Baruuk's), cannot turn on/off Shadow (again, compare to Baruuk), some abilities are almost useless (either for certain enemies or require casting 2nd ability) or it's clunky to use (healing ability moves you too much & bounce off enemies afair). It has 2 nice abilities. Yareli is similar. She has maybe one interesting ability... but far worse then Sev's.

Sev's brings one nice ability but it's more interesting with other frames not itself. Yareli won't work in both ways (herself & as infused ability).

Other frames either tried something new but might be not great. However it's good that they try new stuffs:

- Lavos introduced cooldown system & mixing elements. Cooldowns were interesting idea to try. Mixing elements were... same, interesting. Without change in statuses some are useless or not good/fun to use.

Or give you some feature to play:

- With Grendel you can play as Pinball. Add fire and you can make it even more interesting.

- Xaku let you disarm enemies more frequently. This style were interesting and added something fresh to gameplay. Sadly they nerfed it and just wants you to do nothing but let GoL kill.

- Protea let's you "turn back time". While it is not useful in all situation it provides you some interesting gameplay options.

With those frames (plus Wisp & Gaus that I like but I feel like describing them) it feels like they tried something. Sev and especially Yareli feels forced. Like they don't have soul.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

It has 75% DR. Therefor it should only have 75% DR.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

If you consider strength (something like time to kill) then yeah, even Sevagoth is strong. However if you consider other factors then it's not so nice. Of course this things are somehow subjective. There is something like how boring/fun frame is.

 

Sevagoth has better CC, utility, and damage than Yareli.  He also has better tanking due to his passive.  And the two are tied for clunky mobility, as I'm not in love with Sevagoth's shadow lunge mobility.  He might not be everyone's favorite, and I'm certainly not a big fan of how much forma it takes to max him out, but he's solid.  He can get it popping on the Steel Path, and is versatile enough to succeed in many mission types.

Yareli's the outlier here.  She's leagues below the others, even if Sevagoth isn't your personal favorite.

[Leqesai]

7 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And the two are tied for clunky mobility...

I disagree. While Sevagoth's Shadow might be a little clunky it is not intended to be used for its mobility. Near as I can tell the best setup with Sevagoth is one with giant range on Gloom and Shadow. This way you can stay near Sevagoth while in Shadow form and pull all the enemies to you (which are then slowed once they get in range of gloom). I tried Shadow with mobile gameplay and it really doesn't seem intended for mobility at all.

Yareli, on the other hand, has Merulina which is unequivocally more clunky. You bump your head, bump into walls/objects, clip through the world etc. Even if I were to agree with you that Shadow is clunky I would still find it far less clunky than Merulina. We'll have to see if the magic patch fixes Merulina or not. I have doubts.  

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a une heure, Leqesai a dit :

I disagree. While Sevagoth's Shadow might be a little clunky it is not intended to be used for its mobility. Near as I can tell the best setup with Sevagoth is one with giant range on Gloom and Shadow. This way you can stay near Sevagoth while in Shadow form and pull all the enemies to you (which are then slowed once they get in range of gloom). I tried Shadow with mobile gameplay and it really doesn't seem intended for mobility at all.

Yareli, on the other hand, has Merulina which is unequivocally more clunky. You bump your head, bump into walls/objects, clip through the world etc. Even if I were to agree with you that Shadow is clunky I would still find it far less clunky than Merulina. We'll have to see if the magic patch fixes Merulina or not. I have doubts.  

Sevagoth damage output comes from either 1+2, or shadow melee heavy attack, the shadow 1st is a good CC (pull and pack everything). So yes, it's kinda static, but not as much as Nidus or Vauban, much more like a Nekros with Nidus Larva.

Yareli is... clunky. Without Merulina she's static, and with Merulina you have to move slowly and be cautious to avoid hitting your head in the wall, and the range of her spell aren't even that good. The worst being trying to deal damage with aquablades and having to run arround ennemies at the approriate range, with merulina it's a chore.

 

The seashore frame was in fact a sea chore 😎

[quxier]

8 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Sevagoth has better CC, utility, and damage than Yareli.  He also has better tanking due to his passive.  And the two are tied for clunky mobility, as I'm not in love with Sevagoth's shadow lunge mobility.  He might not be everyone's favorite, and I'm certainly not a big fan of how much forma it takes to max him out, but he's solid.  He can get it popping on the Steel Path, and is versatile enough to succeed in many mission types.

Yareli's the outlier here.  She's leagues below the others, even if Sevagoth isn't your personal favorite.

Again, I don't mean damage. With Xaku, you could probably put Gaze + GoL and sit there watching enemies dying.

I love Gloom (good for CC, great energy economy, no enemies near you - you don't waste energy, not requiring overly moded frame). And I like it's version of Pull. Even without considering damage Sev is better. However Sev has lot of problems (some of them are subjective but still important) that doesn't make Yareli outlier.

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

I disagree. While Sevagoth's Shadow might be a little clunky it is not intended to be used for its mobility

It might not be used for mobility (like Merulina's) however it moves you in some direction so it's ok to compare those 2 abilities.

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Again, I don't mean damage. With Xaku, you could probably put Gaze + GoL and sit there watching enemies dying.

I love Gloom (good for CC, great energy economy, no enemies near you - you don't waste energy, not requiring overly moded frame). And I like it's version of Pull. Even without considering damage Sev is better. However Sev has lot of problems (some of them are subjective but still important) that doesn't make Yareli outlier.

 

Then let me put it this way and get back to the original topic.  If Waifu were suggesting buffs of this level be applied to any of the other frames on my list of recent frames, I would probably disagree.  Yareli is the only recent (past 2.5 years) frame that warrants this much fixing.  She is an outlier.

out·li·er

/ˈoutˌlīər/

a person or thing situated away or detached from the main body or system.

"less accessible islands and outliers"

a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.

"an outlier in Faulkner's body of work"

[quxier]

58 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Then let me put it this way and get back to the original topic.  If Waifu were suggesting buffs of this level be applied to any of the other frames on my list of recent frames, I would probably disagree.  Yareli is the only recent (past 2.5 years) frame that warrants this much fixing.  She is an outlier.

ok, sure

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

On 2021-08-29 at 1:02 AM, quxier said:

Other frames either tried something new but might be not great. However it's good that they try new stuffs:

- Lavos introduced cooldown system & mixing elements. Cooldowns were interesting idea to try. Mixing elements were... same, interesting. Without change in statuses some are useless or not good/fun to use.

Or give you some feature to play:

- With Grendel you can play as Pinball. Add fire and you can make it even more interesting.

- Xaku let you disarm enemies more frequently. This style were interesting and added something fresh to gameplay. Sadly they nerfed it and just wants you to do nothing but let GoL kill.

- Protea let's you "turn back time". While it is not useful in all situation it provides you some interesting gameplay options.

With those frames (plus Wisp & Gaus that I like but I feel like describing them) it feels like they tried something. Sev and especially Yareli feels forced. Like they don't have soul.

Protea also has a very "all the energy you'll ever need" caster style going for her, but yeah, all those mentioned frame had a niche they are good at.

Even before the Xaku buffs, they could still get stuff done as a forma-intensive glass cannon, and Sevagoth came out pretty well balanced with an interesting "switch between two frames" concept that I frankly think he does better than Equinox. Meanwhile, Yareli, as you said, feels just like something they put out just because they had to in order to keep up the release schedule, with basic, horribly undertuned abilities. They didn't even make the K-Drive suitable for tilesets through tighter controls and shorter model height.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

shorter model height.

She could even sit (it's already animated).

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

17 minutes ago, quxier said:

She could even sit (it's already animated).

That, or make Merulina swim through the ground instead of floating a foot above it.

[quxier]

9 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

That, or make Merulina swim through the ground instead of floating a foot above it.

That sounds like bug.... but would look/feel awesome!

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

16 hours ago, quxier said:

That sounds like bug.... but would look/feel awesome!

It's also how Hydroid's Kraken appears, so there'd be a recurring theme!