How about toning down critical?

[Lutesque]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Mm. I feel ya. I don’t quite like how I don’t know whether I’ll kill an enemy in 5 shots or 7 shots consistantly.

Yeah but atleast in Warframe is kinda expected... In Hades (SuperGiant Games) it's especially Annoying because there's no Magus Repair to Compensate for this Crap.

14 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

RNG rewards on the other hand is a whole other topic 😋

They were invented by Satan... 😱

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Of course I'm ignoring that. Because it doesn't matter. It still doesn't matter, just like it didn't matter the last time we argued about this.

Yes, increasing your Status Chance from 5 to 25% will make you proc a Status Effect as often as a weapon that goes from 5 to 25% Crit Chance crits, but if you actually do the math then you'll quickly realize that going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance means different things for different weapons. Going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance on a weapon with 1.5x Crit Damage is a 1.09x damage increase. Going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance on a weapon with 2.5x Crit Damage is a 1.27x damage increase.

Meanwhile, going from 5% to 25% Status Chance is a 5x increase in the number of procs over a timespan, which means 5x more damage-dealing procs occurring resulting in 5x more damage coming from those procs and arriving at the 10-proc cap 5x faster. And this is true for every weapon you add that hypothetical +400% Status Chance mod to. Status Chance does the same thing even on different weapons, just like all the other damage stat types but Crit.

But you fail to realize that you are actually flat out wrong. Damaging statuses do not cap at 10 stacks. And with the statuses that do cap at 10, you need to consider the fight lengths of the game aswell, reaching the cap faster means you end up killing faster aswell, because your damage uptime under 10x corrosive, magnetic or viral starts earier for a weapon that applies 10 statuses per second compared to one that applies 2. And as I said, crit and crit damage of a weapon also impacts each individual damaging status, so gives status chances the exact same value difference potential as critical chance. 

You just cant ignore it, no matter how much you want to.

If damaging statuses didnt increase through crits you'd be somewhat right, but we'd still have multishot, damage weight and fire rate to take into account to arrive at the correct dps increase benefit from status chance when comparing two weapons.

[Tehtus]

On 2021-09-17 at 3:57 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

With what I heard about how critical focused weapons able to deal more damage, and how easy to increase your critical damage to deal insane amount of damage (up to 8.4x with soma prime using vital sense and hammer shot), maybe you guys would like it if critical damage is made far lower to make it not too far outperforming pure damage/status weapons

 

Looking for nerfs? Go grab MK1 guns with 0 mods and go get'em tiger.  

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

But your own Examples show that it is even 😱 !!!

I really don't know how to explain this, man. I'm sorry. Just look at my first post on this thread.

Does 1.33 equal 3.59?

[PublikDomain]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you fail to realize that you are actually flat out wrong. Damaging statuses do not cap at 10 stacks. And with the statuses that do cap at 10, you need to consider the fight lengths of the game aswell, reaching the cap faster means you end up killing faster aswell, because your damage uptime under 10x corrosive, magnetic or viral starts earier for a weapon that applies 10 statuses per second compared to one that applies 2. And as I said, crit and crit damage of a weapon also impacts each individual damaging status, so gives status chances the exact same value difference potential as critical chance. 

You just cant ignore it, no matter how much you want to.

If damaging statuses didnt increase through crits you'd be somewhat right, but we'd still have multishot, damage weight and fire rate to take into account to arrive at the correct dps increase benefit from status chance when comparing two weapons.

I'm bowing out of this one. Please just get a calculator.

Just like in the other thread about crits, can you please prove this with numbers? Prove me wrong. With numbers. Write it out. Please. Take multishot, damage weighting, fire rate, everything into account. Please.

[Lutesque]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I really don't know how to explain this, man. I'm sorry. Just look at my first post on this thread.

Does 1.33 equal 3.59?

I can't click on the Shikshkamabob for some reason....

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm bowing out of this one. Please just get a calculator.

Just like in the other thread about crits, can you please prove this with numbers? Prove me wrong. With numbers. Write it out. Please. Take multishot, damage weighting, fire rate, everything into account. Please.

Some one already did.... I don't know remember who but I'm pretty sure they did...

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This doesn't sound right 🤔 doubling the Status Chance on any Status Weapon doesn't double your Total Damage

OK. I did the math on this one. My Phantasma build, at max stacks, deals 104,554.6 sustained DPS. It also inflicts a sustained 108.7 heat procs per second at 195.3 damage per second per heat proc.

If I fire for one second, on average I'll have dealt 104,554.6 damage from base and 21,229.5 damage from heat every second for 6 seconds for a total of 127,377 damage. That's roughly 55/45, so doubling the status on this build would only increase the damage by 55%. That's still way more of an increase than you'd get from doubling the status chance on Synapse or Acceltra or Ninkondi Prime or what have you, but props to you, it's not double the total damage.

But hold on. If I continue firing the weapon for MORE than one second, the raw damage increases linearly. The damage from heat procs, on the other hand increases quadratically. After four seconds, it's more like 60/40.

The longer you shoot at a target, the greater percentage of the total damage comes from heat procs. This is particularly noticeable if you want to shoot Demolysts or Nox or such things. So the effective DPS increase from doubling status chance will be larger against tougher targets. In addition, if I bothered to invest in Primed Cleanse mods for my Phantasma, the base damage would increase by 1.55x and the heat damage would increase by 2.4025x. Heat would be an even bigger proportion of my total damage.

(These calculations ignore the damage multiplier from viral, because it affects base damage and heat in the same way.)

 

Edit: Apparently I don't have my formulas right. I went into the Simulacrum to test this. I can change out one of my heat mods for electric to get radiation. Then I shot a lvl 135 Nox a bunch. It took 15 clips to kill the Nox. This should be greater than my raw damage against Nox with my pure heat build, since the radiation damage will get a 75% buff and ignore 75% of armor. The heat damage gets a 25% buff and strips 50% armor.

And with my heat build, I consistently kill the Nox in 1 clip. (With no headshots, because I want a tanky target.)

So the heat damage from firing for roughly two seconds (1 clip) is at least 14x the raw damage. This puts things at 93.3/6.7 at least. So doubling the status increases damage by at least 93.3 percent. This testing was with 0 stacks, but the stacks should just affect raw damage + multishot, which scales both raw damage and heat by the same amount.

[Lutesque]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

OK. I did the math on this one. My Phantasma build, at max stacks, deals 104,554.6 sustained DPS. It also inflicts a sustained 108.7 heat procs per second at 195.3 damage per second per heat proc.

If I fire for one second, on average I'll have dealt 104,554.6 damage from base and 21,229.5 damage from heat every second for 6 seconds for a total of 127,377 damage. That's roughly 55/45, so doubling the status on this build would only increase the damage by 55%. That's still way more of an increase than you'd get from doubling the status chance on Synapse or Acceltra or Ninkondi Prime or what have you, but props to you, it's not double the total damage.

But hold on. If I continue firing the weapon for MORE than one second, the raw damage increases linearly. The damage from heat procs, on the other hand increases quadratically. After four seconds, it's more like 60/40.

The longer you shoot at a target, the greater percentage of the total damage comes from heat procs. This is particularly noticeable if you want to shoot Demolysts or Nox or such things. So the effective DPS increase from doubling status chance will be larger against tougher targets. In addition, if I bothered to invest in Primed Cleanse mods for my Phantasma, the base damage would increase by 1.55x and the heat damage would increase by 2.4025x. Heat would be an even bigger proportion of my total damage.

(These calculations ignore the damage multiplier from viral, because it affects base damage and heat in the same way.)

 

Edit: Apparently I don't have my formulas right. I went into the Simulacrum to test this. I can change out one of my heat mods for electric to get radiation. Then I shot a lvl 135 Nox a bunch. It took 15 clips to kill the Nox. This should be greater than my raw damage against Nox with my pure heat build, since the radiation damage will get a 75% buff and ignore 75% of armor. The heat damage gets a 25% buff and strips 50% armor.

And with my heat build, I consistently kill the Nox in 1 clip. (With no headshots, because I want a tanky target.)

So the heat damage from firing for roughly two seconds (1 clip) is at least 14x the raw damage. This puts things at 93.3/6.7 at least. So doubling the status increases damage by at least 93.3 percent. This testing was with 0 stacks, but the stacks should just affect raw damage + multishot, which scales both raw damage and heat by the same amount.

Yeah I couldn't follow any of that.... I can't even tell if you disagreed or Agreed... 

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah I couldn't follow any of that.... I can't even tell if you disagreed or Agreed...

Disagreed. I struck through my math because testing revealed it to be false, but I'm still not sure where it went wrong. On my current Phantasma build, against tough opponents, 93% of my total damage comes from the status procs. So doubling the status chance increases my total damage by 93%. Technically doesn't double it, but nearly does.

[Lutesque]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Disagreed. I struck through my math because testing revealed it to be false, but I'm still not sure where it went wrong. On my current Phantasma build, against tough opponents, 93% of my total damage comes from the status procs. So doubling the status chance increases my total damage by 93%. Technically doesn't double it, but nearly does.

Il have to take your word for it since I'm definitely not going to do that myself....

I still disagree though... 😝

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Il have to take your word for it since I'm definitely not going to do that myself....

I still disagree though... 😝

So what you're saying is you clearly don't take my word for it.

[Lutesque]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

So what you're saying is you clearly don't take my word for it.

Pretty Much.... I said I would have to take your Word for it... Not that I was indeed definitely taking your word for it... 

[PublikDomain]

Lord release me from this pain. Sitting in bed with the cat doing math isn't all that bad, and I got to refine my spreadsheets, so hopefully this isn't all that bad.

@SneakyErvin here ya go. Accounting for damage, multishot, crit, status, bane, elemental, proc distributions, proc damage, uptime, everything.

Let us compare.

Spoiler

The Latron, vs the Rubico Prime.

Weapon	Impact	Puncture	Slash	Total Base Damage	Multishot	Crit Chance	Crit Damage	Crit Multiplier	Status Chance	Fire Rate	Magazine Size	Reload Speed
Latron	8.25	38.50	8.25	55.00	1.00	12.00%	2.00	1.12	12.00%	4.17	15.00	2.40
Rubico Prime	149.60	28.10	9.30	187.00	1.00	38.00%	3.00	1.76	16.00%	3.67	5.00	2.00

And we'll add these mods:

Total Damage	Total Bane	Total Heat	Total Multishot	Total Crit Chance	Total Crit Damage	Total Status Chance	Total Fire Rate
165.00%	55.00%	90.00%	90.00%	150.00%	120.00%	90.00%	60.00%
165.00%	55.00%	90.00%	90.00%	150.00%	120.00%	90.00%	60.00%

That is, Serration, P. Bane of Whatever, Hellfire, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Rifle Aptitude, and Speed Trigger.

It gives us these derived stats:

Impact	Puncture	Slash	Total Base Damage	Heat Damage	Total Damage	Multishot	Crit Chance	Crit Damage	Crit Multiplier	Status Chance	Fire Rate	Magazine Size	Reload Speed
33.89	158.14	33.89	225.91	203.32	429.23	1.90	30.00%	4.40	2.02	22.80%	6.67	15.00	2.40
614.48	115.42	38.20	768.10	691.29	1,459.39	1.90	95.00%	6.60	6.32	30.40%	5.87	5.00	2.00

That means the DPS stats are this:

Average Hit	Burst DPS	Uptime	Sustained DPS
1,647.40	10,991.45	48.37%	5,316.25
17,524.41	102,903.35	29.86%	30,728.42

Overframe lists slightly different numbers, because these guns are semi-auto. It's a rounding error, or a minor consideration they're making that I'm not.

Procs!

Status Procs/Sec	Impact Procs/sec	Puncture Procs/sec	Slash Procs/sec	Heat Procs/sec
2.89	0.23	1.06	0.23	1.37
3.39	1.43	0.27	0.09	1.61

Time for 10 Impact PRocs	Time for 10 Puncture Procs
43.82	9.39
7.00	37.28

Time per Slash Proc	Slash Proc Uptime	Slash Proc Damage	Slash Proc Burst DPS	Slash Proc Sustained DPS
4.38	136.91%	247.57	338.94	163.94
11.26	53.27%	2,633.52	1,402.78	418.89

Time per Heat Proc	Heat Proc Uptime	Heat Proc Damage	Heat Proc Burst DPS	Heat Proc Sustained DPS
0.73	821.46%	707.33	5,810.43	2,810.34
0.62	963.95%	7,524.33	72,530.61	21,658.69

What if I take off the Status mods?

Status Procs/Sec	Impact Procs/sec	Puncture Procs/sec	Slash Procs/sec	Heat Procs/sec
1.52	0.12	0.56	0.12	0.72
1.79	0.75	0.14	0.05	0.85

Time for 10 Impact Procs	Time for 10 Puncture Procs
83.27	17.84
13.30	70.83

Time per Slash Proc	Slash Proc Uptime	Slash Proc Damage	Slash Proc Burst DPS	Slash Proc Sustained DPS
8.33	72.06%	247.57	178.39	86.28
21.40	28.03%	2,633.52	738.30	220.47

Time per Heat Proc	Heat Proc Uptime	Heat Proc Damage	Heat Proc Burst DPS	Heat Proc Sustained DPS
1.39	432.35%	707.33	3,058.12	1,479.12
1.18	507.34%	7,524.33	38,174.01	11,399.31

How many more procs per second did Rifle Aptitude add? 1.9 times.

How much faster did Impact and Puncture reach 10 stacks? 1.9 times.

How many more Heat and Slash procs per second did Rifle Aptitude add? 1.9 times.

How much more damage did those Heat and Slash procs generate? 1.9 times.

Notice that the same amount of Status Chance multiplies the procs by the same amount no matter the weapon.

What if we instead removed the crit mods?

Average Hit	Burst DPS	Uptime	Sustained DPS
913.41	6,094.27	48.37%	2,947.62
4,880.22	28,656.63	29.86%	8,557.28

The Latron now deals 0.55x damage.

The Rubico now deals 0.28x damage.

Notice that a different amount of damage was added from the crit mods depending on the weapon.

Status Procs/Sec	Impact Procs/sec	Puncture Procs/sec	Slash Procs/sec	Heat Procs/sec
2.89	0.23	1.06	0.23	1.37
3.39	1.43	0.27	0.09	1.61

Time for 10 Impact Procs	Time for 10 Puncture Procs
43.82	9.39
7.00	37.28

Time per Slash Proc	Slash Proc Uptime	Slash Proc Damage	Slash Proc Burst DPS	Slash Proc Sustained DPS
4.38	136.91%	137.26	187.93	90.90
11.26	53.27%	733.38	390.65	116.65

Time per Heat Proc	Heat Proc Uptime	Heat Proc Damage	Heat Proc Burst DPS	Heat Proc Sustained DPS
0.73	821.46%	392.18	3,221.62	1,558.21
0.62	963.95%	2,095.38	20,198.40	6,031.53

Just like with the other damage stats, the Latron only deals 0.55x damage.

And the Rubico only deals 0.28x damage.

Again, notice that a different amount of damage coming from status procs was added from the crit mods depending on the weapon.

Anything else you think I'm not considering? Is it this?

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

you need to consider the fight lengths of the game aswell, reaching the cap faster means you end up killing faster aswell

So find a stronger enemy to shoot.

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

In other news, I figured out what was wrong with my math. On beam shotguns, the damage per heat proc scales with multishot. Since my build has 25.5 multishot, each heat proc deals 4980 damage per second, not 195.3. With 1 second of firing, 96.9% of the damage comes from heat procs and 3.1% comes from the weapon's base damage.

 

Spoiler

Damage	Total	% of total
Impact	42	0.09803921569
Radiation	84	0.1960784314
Heat	264.6	0.6176470588
Viral	37.8	0.08823529412
Total	428.4

Multishot	Total Damage	Crit scaling
25.5	10924.2	11088.063

Fire rate	Burst DPS
12	133056.756

Total % firing	Sustain DPS
0.7857142857	104544.594

Status Chance	0.732
Burst Heat procs per second	138.348
Sustain Heat procs per second	108.702
Damage per heat proc	4980.15
Damage from heat per second per second	541352.2653

Seconds firing	Damage from heat	Raw damage	% Total damage from heat
1	3248113.592	104544.594	0.9688174015
2	7037579.449	209089.188	0.971146854
3	11368397.57	313633.782	0.9731524619

There's the correct math for my Phantasma. Status-focused weapons get a majority of their total damage from their status procs, so doubling their status chance offers a much larger multiplier to total damage than it does for crit-focused weapons.

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

22 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Anything else you think I'm not considering? Is it this?

Look at my Phantasma math. On my Phantasma build, 97% of the total damage comes from damage-dealing status procs. On something crit-focused like Acceltra, that's 100% not going to be the case. (Let's ignore Hunter Munitions for now, since it doesn't scale with status chance.) So status-increasing mods function almost as direct damage multipliers on Phantasma.

[LillyRaccune]

Sorry, I'm a Mathframe noob here

Why is-

19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Crit Damage Crit Multiplier

Crit Damage and Crit Multiplier listed as separate values? I have heard players using "CD" and "CM" interchangably and claiming that they were the same thing.

I looked on the wiki and the best I could find was "headshot multiplier". But I don't think Publik-senpai is referring to headshots.

26 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Sitting in bed with the cat doing math isn't all that bad,

The sound of cats typing is really annoying... Wait... your CAT did all this math!?! /s

[CaptainMinty]

I like the idea of making things additive. Such a change would be MASSIVE though. All mods would need to be changed to reflect the new additive system. All enemies would need adjustments to their scaling. However, with an additive system, a level cap for enemies would be much more viable.

Critical is not the one that needs to receive the additive change first though. Raw damage and armor values need that first. Same with health and shield values.

However that's just my dream scenario that Warframe dips away from the absurd scaling that multiplication adds. The insistence on multiplying strength in my eyes ruins all sense of scaling. A slight increase in base strength makes a larger difference from the multiplier. A difference of 2 suddenly becomes much larger after multipliers.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

Crit Damage and Crit Multiplier listed as separate values? I have heard players using "CD" and "CM" interchangably and claiming that they were the same thing.

I looked on the wiki and the best I could find was "headshot multiplier". But I don't think Publik-senpai is referring to headshots.

It's the same. Notice that Vital Sense says "+120% Critical Damage" but on a weapon's stat card it says "Critical Multiplier". The game uses these terms interchangeably. I find that usually when people outside of the game talk about this number, they say Crit Damage.

There's also the overall damage multiplier actually generated by a Crit. The wiki calls this "Average Damage Multiplier":

But I think that's a bit confusing on its own, because if I talk about Damage Multipliers then what multiplier do I mean? Damage mods? Multishot mods? Crit mods? So I call it the Crit Multiplier. Since it's the multiplier generated by your crits.

2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

The sound of cats typing is really annoying... Wait... your CAT did all this math!?!

Yeah, he does the math and I just translate.

2 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

So status-increasing mods function almost as direct damage multipliers on Phantasma.

I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that damage multiplier will be the same regardless of the weapon. If you can increase your Phantasma's proc rate 10x, it'll have 10x more procs that deal 10x more damage than where it started. If you increase another weapon's proc rate 10x it'll proc 10x more times and deal 10x more damage from those procs. Why wouldn't it?

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that damage multiplier will be the same regardless of the weapon. If you can increase your Phantasma's proc rate 10x, it'll have 10x more procs that deal 10x more damage than where it started. If you increase another weapon's proc rate 10x it'll proc 10x more times and deal 10x more damage from those procs. Why wouldn't it?

Yes. Both Acceltra and Phantasma will deal 10x more damage from procs. But all of the damage on Phantasma comes from procs. So you're dealing 10x, or nearly 10x, total damage. On Acceltra or whatever your damage will be coming from base damage or Hunter Munitions procs, which don't scale with status chance. So multiplying the status chance on Acceltra just means you're going to be getting faster viral procs, which runs into diminishing returns. Even a heat build on Acceltra would have a relatively low percentage of its total damage come from heat procs. So the multiplier on total damage is far less than 10x.

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

I like the idea of making things additive. Such a change would be MASSIVE though. All mods would need to be changed to reflect the new additive system. All enemies would need adjustments to their scaling. However, with an additive system, a level cap for enemies would be much more viable.

Critical is not the one that needs to receive the additive change first though. Raw damage and armor values need that first. Same with health and shield values.

However that's just my dream scenario that Warframe dips away from the absurd scaling that multiplication adds. The insistence on multiplying strength in my eyes ruins all sense of scaling. A slight increase in base strength makes a larger difference from the multiplier. A difference of 2 suddenly becomes much larger after multipliers.

I think that's an exceptionally bad idea. OK, let's look at additive damage. Let's say, I don't know, a mod that adds +50 damage to guns. This mod would add 5% total damage to Opticor and be utter garbage. On the other hand, it would more than quadruple the damage on Prisma Grakata. It would be like two serrations in one mod; absurdly strong.

Think these things through, man.

[CaptainMinty]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

I think that's an exceptionally bad idea. OK, let's look at additive damage. Let's say, I don't know, a mod that adds +50 damage to guns. This mod would add 5% total damage to Opticor and be utter garbage. On the other hand, it would more than quadruple the damage on Prisma Grakata. It would be like two serrations in one mod; absurdly strong.

Think these things through, man.

The reverse is currently true and I don't see you calling it an exceptionally bad idea lol.
The Prisma Grakata has 15 total base damage and after Serration does 39.75.
The Opticor has 1000 base damage (ignoring its aoe explosion) and after Serration deals 2650 damage.

The Prisma Grakata gains a whopping 24.75 points of damage from Serration where the Opticor gains an absurd 1650. The difference in the gains they get from the same mod is ludicrous. What also REALLY doesn't help is that Serration is calculated BEFORE elemental mods. Elemental mods use the post Serration damage to calculate how much damage they give as well. It only further increases the yields higher base damage weapons receive for the same mods.

I have thought this through. The problem with making all mods additive is that every single mod will have to be adjusted accordingly, and even weapons will need adjusting. Enemy health, shields, and armor will need to be adjusted and enemy level and scaling will need adjustments and perhaps a cap as well to define a proper ceiling. Said ceiling will allow the additive mods themselves to be focused and scaled around, as well as weapons. The reason I said that it would be my dream scenario for Warframe is because the simple idea of turning mods into additives instead of multipliers requires a ground up rework of the entire system of mods, health, shields, and armor for both the players and enemies as well as weapons themselves.

Additive damage has its own problems that do need to be looked at. However, they pose far less a problem for balance in the long run than multipliers do. The problem is that Warframe has no ceiling. Additive or Multiplicative, when there is no ceiling to balance around, the problem itself is moot. It would be easier to build a ceiling around an additive system instead of a multiplicative one. However all balance talks are moot when there is no ceiling to gauge the discussion on.

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

52 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

The reverse is currently true and I don't see you calling it an exceptionally bad idea lol.
The Prisma Grakata has 15 total base damage and after Serration does 39.75.
The Opticor has 1000 base damage (ignoring its aoe explosion) and after Serration deals 2650 damage.

No, the current setup isn't a problem. And here's why. "Damage per shot" is an irrelevant statistic in isolation. For example, Opticor's high damage per shot is balanced around a lower fire rate.

If you want to look at individual statistics in isolation for a single-target weapon, the only relevant one is "time to kill". For both Prisma Grakata and Opticor, Serration currently decreases time to kill by a factor of 2.65. In your world, the +50 damage mod would decrease TTK for Prisma Grakata by 4.3 and for the Opticor by 1.05. (For AoE weapons, radius is also relevant.)

 

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

I have thought this through. The problem with making all mods additive is that every single mod will have to be adjusted accordingly, and even weapons will need adjusting. Enemy health, shields, and armor will need to be adjusted and enemy level and scaling will need adjustments and perhaps a cap as well to define a proper ceiling.

Yeah, sure. If you take warframe, but change all of the weapons, enemies, and mods, you could end up with a system where additive mods make sense. However, the biggest problem with additive mods in my eyes is that they change the philosophy behind modding. In a multiplicative world, you can feel free to play to your strengths. Increase the damage of the Opticor even further, go nuts on the Grakata with Wild Frenzy, etc. In an additive world, it no longer makes sense to mod around a weapon's strengths. It only makes sense to mod around a weapon's weaknesses.

The Grakata has poor base damage but great fire rate? Modding for fire rate becomes useless, let's mod for damage. The Opticor has great base damage but poor fire rate? Modding for damage becomes useless, let's mod for fire rate. It makes the Opticor a slow assault rifle with high damage and a cool skin as opposed to a cannon. It makes the Prisma Grakata a fast assault rifle with below average damage instead of a bullet hose.

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2021-09-18 at 11:04 AM, PublikDomain said:

We only care about Slash... Because it can bypass Armor. It's the fastest against Armor because it skips all the damage resistance. And Armor is important because it's the biggest source of enemy EHP. That's why Slash gets used so much. Before Viral and Heat usurped Corrosive, Corrosive was all we used for the same reason: Corrosive was the best way to bypass Armor.

So if Armor wasn't so hugely important to mod for, then Slash and other Armor-defeating damage types wouldn't be so much more powerful than others. They only have such an advantage because other types still have to deal with Armor. Even if Slash didn't bypass Armor and was just a weaker Toxin clone, all the other procs would still be garbage against the >99% DR late-game Armor provides and we'd still be using builds that are all Viral and Heat.

Speaking of Toxin, though, that's actually a good comparison. Toxin bypasses Shields but not Armor, Slash bypasses Armor but not Shields. So why don't we use Toxin more often? Maybe because Shields are so much weaker than Armor that no one bothers to actively defeat it.

And more reason to change slash bleed damage from true damage to slash. Once you're no longer bypass armor, that means DPS will eventually fall off unless you have debuff capability in your arsenal or team, making debuff/buff role having bigger importance on high level to complement DPS position

Viral and Heat? We can tone down the effect if that's the problem. Viral can be set to 50% - 100% bonus damage so the difference won't be too big and heat can be tone down to provide lower armor strip, making them a choice to bring but not to the point of not usurping Corrosive if that's what you want

Toxin doesn't see much use because the shield itself is pretty easy to deplete but once you get on higher level, especially on Steel Path where shields are far thicker than health, it will take too long to take down even with viral so Toxin will see bigger importance in your arsenal

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Lord release me from this pain. Sitting in bed with the cat doing math isn't all that bad, and I got to refine my spreadsheets, so hopefully this isn't all that bad.

@SneakyErvin here ya go. Accounting for damage, multishot, crit, status, bane, elemental, proc distributions, proc damage, uptime, everything.

Let us compare.

  Hide contents

The Latron, vs the Rubico Prime.

Weapon	Impact	Puncture	Slash	Total Base Damage	Multishot	Crit Chance	Crit Damage	Crit Multiplier	Status Chance	Fire Rate	Magazine Size	Reload Speed
Latron	8.25	38.50	8.25	55.00	1.00	12.00%	2.00	1.12	12.00%	4.17	15.00	2.40
Rubico Prime	149.60	28.10	9.30	187.00	1.00	38.00%	3.00	1.76	16.00%	3.67	5.00	2.00

And we'll add these mods:

Total Damage	Total Bane	Total Heat	Total Multishot	Total Crit Chance	Total Crit Damage	Total Status Chance	Total Fire Rate
165.00%	55.00%	90.00%	90.00%	150.00%	120.00%	90.00%	60.00%
165.00%	55.00%	90.00%	90.00%	150.00%	120.00%	90.00%	60.00%

That is, Serration, P. Bane of Whatever, Hellfire, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Rifle Aptitude, and Speed Trigger.

It gives us these derived stats:

Impact	Puncture	Slash	Total Base Damage	Heat Damage	Total Damage	Multishot	Crit Chance	Crit Damage	Crit Multiplier	Status Chance	Fire Rate	Magazine Size	Reload Speed
33.89	158.14	33.89	225.91	203.32	429.23	1.90	30.00%	4.40	2.02	22.80%	6.67	15.00	2.40
614.48	115.42	38.20	768.10	691.29	1,459.39	1.90	95.00%	6.60	6.32	30.40%	5.87	5.00	2.00

That means the DPS stats are this:

Average Hit	Burst DPS	Uptime	Sustained DPS
1,647.40	10,991.45	48.37%	5,316.25
17,524.41	102,903.35	29.86%	30,728.42

Overframe lists slightly different numbers, because these guns are semi-auto. It's a rounding error, or a minor consideration they're making that I'm not.

Procs!

Status Procs/Sec	Impact Procs/sec	Puncture Procs/sec	Slash Procs/sec	Heat Procs/sec
2.89	0.23	1.06	0.23	1.37
3.39	1.43	0.27	0.09	1.61

Time for 10 Impact PRocs	Time for 10 Puncture Procs
43.82	9.39
7.00	37.28

Time per Slash Proc	Slash Proc Uptime	Slash Proc Damage	Slash Proc Burst DPS	Slash Proc Sustained DPS
4.38	136.91%	247.57	338.94	163.94
11.26	53.27%	2,633.52	1,402.78	418.89

Time per Heat Proc	Heat Proc Uptime	Heat Proc Damage	Heat Proc Burst DPS	Heat Proc Sustained DPS
0.73	821.46%	707.33	5,810.43	2,810.34
0.62	963.95%	7,524.33	72,530.61	21,658.69

What if I take off the Status mods?

Status Procs/Sec	Impact Procs/sec	Puncture Procs/sec	Slash Procs/sec	Heat Procs/sec
1.52	0.12	0.56	0.12	0.72
1.79	0.75	0.14	0.05	0.85

Time for 10 Impact Procs	Time for 10 Puncture Procs
83.27	17.84
13.30	70.83

Time per Slash Proc	Slash Proc Uptime	Slash Proc Damage	Slash Proc Burst DPS	Slash Proc Sustained DPS
8.33	72.06%	247.57	178.39	86.28
21.40	28.03%	2,633.52	738.30	220.47

Time per Heat Proc	Heat Proc Uptime	Heat Proc Damage	Heat Proc Burst DPS	Heat Proc Sustained DPS
1.39	432.35%	707.33	3,058.12	1,479.12
1.18	507.34%	7,524.33	38,174.01	11,399.31

How many more procs per second did Rifle Aptitude add? 1.9 times.

How much faster did Impact and Puncture reach 10 stacks? 1.9 times.

How many more Heat and Slash procs per second did Rifle Aptitude add? 1.9 times.

How much more damage did those Heat and Slash procs generate? 1.9 times.

Notice that the same amount of Status Chance multiplies the procs by the same amount no matter the weapon.

What if we instead removed the crit mods?

Average Hit	Burst DPS	Uptime	Sustained DPS
913.41	6,094.27	48.37%	2,947.62
4,880.22	28,656.63	29.86%	8,557.28

The Latron now deals 0.55x damage.

The Rubico now deals 0.28x damage.

Notice that a different amount of damage was added from the crit mods depending on the weapon.

Status Procs/Sec	Impact Procs/sec	Puncture Procs/sec	Slash Procs/sec	Heat Procs/sec
2.89	0.23	1.06	0.23	1.37
3.39	1.43	0.27	0.09	1.61

Time for 10 Impact Procs	Time for 10 Puncture Procs
43.82	9.39
7.00	37.28

Time per Slash Proc	Slash Proc Uptime	Slash Proc Damage	Slash Proc Burst DPS	Slash Proc Sustained DPS
4.38	136.91%	137.26	187.93	90.90
11.26	53.27%	733.38	390.65	116.65

Time per Heat Proc	Heat Proc Uptime	Heat Proc Damage	Heat Proc Burst DPS	Heat Proc Sustained DPS
0.73	821.46%	392.18	3,221.62	1,558.21
0.62	963.95%	2,095.38	20,198.40	6,031.53

Just like with the other damage stats, the Latron only deals 0.55x damage.

And the Rubico only deals 0.28x damage.

Again, notice that a different amount of damage coming from status procs was added from the crit mods depending on the weapon.

Anything else you think I'm not considering? Is it this?

So find a stronger enemy to shoot.

That is a whole heap of numbers I'm not going to go through reading since it is like reading a wall of text.

[CaptainMinty]

17 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

No, the current setup isn't a problem. And here's why. "Damage per shot" is an irrelevant statistic in isolation. For example, Opticor's high damage per shot is balanced around a lower fire rate.

If you want to look at individual statistics in isolation for a single-target weapon, the only relevant one is "time to kill". For both Prisma Grakata and Opticor, Serration currently decreases time to kill by a factor of 2.65. In your world, the +50 damage mod would decrease TTK for Prisma Grakata by 4.3 and for the Opticor by 1.05. (For AoE weapons, radius is also relevant.)
 

Yes the current setup is a problem. That problem being that in a multiplicative realm, slight damage increases between two similar weapons are dramatically different. The slightest change isn't so slight when multiplying.  I also never once advocated for a +50 damage serration. If anything, raw damage shouldn't be a mod in my eyes. It only further worsens the big balance issue that Warframe has.

Damage per shot is also not irrelevant. It's still immensely important. Damage per shot defines the potential of a weapon's time to kill. Especially for single target weapons. Multipliers bring about absurdly high damage per shot. Meaning that for quite a long time, the time to kill for those guns will likely be a single shot. This leaves a powerful problem. Such weapons need to be curtailed. Balance is impossible when one gun can point and click delete virtually anything it so desires. Enter armor. A percent damage mitigation. Another multiplier.


Serration also adds the passive benefit of becoming the new base damage for the purpose of elemental mods added. Therefore, the higher the gain from Serration, the higher the gain from elemental mods. This disproportionately effects time to kill and grants bigger benefits to those with bigger base numbers.
 

 

18 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Yeah, sure. If you take warframe, but change all of the weapons, enemies, and mods, you could end up with a system where additive mods make sense. However, the biggest problem with additive mods in my eyes is that they change the philosophy behind modding. In a multiplicative world, you can feel free to play to your strengths. Increase the damage of the Opticor even further, go nuts on the Grakata with Wild Frenzy, etc. In an additive world, it no longer makes sense to mod around a weapon's strengths. It only makes sense to mod around a weapon's weaknesses.

The Grakata has poor base damage but great fire rate? Modding for fire rate becomes useless, let's mod for damage. The Opticor has great base damage but poor fire rate? Modding for damage becomes useless, let's mod for fire rate. It makes the Opticor a slow assault rifle with high damage and a cool skin as opposed to a cannon. It makes the Prisma Grakata a fast assault rifle with below average damage instead of a bullet hose.

In response, multiplicative modding instead encourages rigidity as well. You only mod to strengths, and do not cover the weakness. Modding to help cover the weakness only weakens the gun further. Adding 100% crit chance substantially helps a gun with 30% crit chance, but adding 100% crit chance to a gun with only 2% crit chance does nothing. The identity of a gun is predetermined. There is no customization for them. They are rigid. Singular. And cannot be modified. Build variance is minimal. It isn't feeling free to play to the strengths. It's being forced to do so because doing the opposite is wholly worthless in comparison.

The idea of a proper additive modding is that modding against your strengths will not be less effective than modding to it. That covering weaknesses in a gun is just as effective as amplifying their strengths. Currently that is entirely impossible. Modding for strengths is all one can do. The only way additive modding becomes so rigid is that the numbers are adjusted poorly. Which is why the system in its entirety would need an overhaul for it. Which is why it is untenable currently. The multiplicative problem is not leaving. It's everywhere in Warframe. If the option is to heavily dampen all damage output (Eidolons) or just negate an entire aspect of the system (Status immunity) or both of those, then something is inherently wrong. Additive modding would curtail the out of control increase in damage output and help define a proper ceiling to which to balance those additive mods to. Small damage increases can be massively impactful and create a much larger gap between two weapons with similar starting points when multiplication is used. Multiplication makes balance much harder. Especially when it gets stacked on itself like it currently does.
 

[PublikDomain]

On 2021-09-19 at 3:17 PM, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Yes. Both Acceltra and Phantasma will deal 10x more damage from procs. But all of the damage on Phantasma comes from procs. So you're dealing 10x, or nearly 10x, total damage. On Acceltra or whatever your damage will be coming from base damage or Hunter Munitions procs, which don't scale with status chance. So multiplying the status chance on Acceltra just means you're going to be getting faster viral procs, which runs into diminishing returns. Even a heat build on Acceltra would have a relatively low percentage of its total damage come from heat procs. So the multiplier on total damage is far less than 10x.

What's the build?

I added the Phantasma to the spreadsheet Ervin doesn't want to look at (go figure) and what I found is this. For a weapon with a 90% Heat mod:

• The DPS from Heat procs as a percentage of DPS from direct damage hits varies depending on weapon's base Status Chance, obviously.
  • The Phantasma in this setup adds +33.21% Burst DPS from Heat procs.
  • The Latron in this setup adds +17.95% Burst DPS from Heat procs.
• Adding a 90% Status mod increases Heat proc DPS by 1.9x, and the percentage of Burst DPS added also increases by 1.9x, obviously.
  • The Phantasma now adds +63.09% Burst DPS from Heat procs.
  • The Latron now adds +34.11% Burst DPS from Heat Procs.

The starting point for this percentage seems to be solely dependent on the base Status Chance. I don't know why, yet, but so far one explanation is that other status-increasing mods like Fire Rate and Multishot also increase direct damage the same amount, while Status Chance only increases one part. Basically:

Quote

Fire Rate Multiplier × Multishot Multiplier × (Burst DPS + Status Chance Multiplier × Status DPS)

Fire Rate, Bane Mods, Multishot Mods, etc. will change the percentage, but since they affect both parts of the DPS the amount they change it is the same for a given amount of stats regardless of weapon. Since Status only multiplies one part of the DPS, it scales unevenly. Something like that. So if you look at this damage increase Status as, like you're saying, an external DPS multiplier then the effect of the Status mod is actually different between different weapons. So you're right.

But even will all of the different stats I've been looking at, the total DPS multiplier from the Status mod only ranges from 1.195x-1.305x for the two weapons.

• The Phantasma with 165% Damage, 55% Bane, 90% Heat, 90% Multishot, 150% CC, 120% CD, and 60% Fire Rate deals 33.98% of its Burst DPS as Heat procs.
• The Phantasma with 165% Damage, 55% Bane, 90% Heat, 90% Multishot, 150% CC, 120% CD, 60% Fire Rate, and 90% Status Chance deals 49.44% of its Burst DPS as Heat procs, 1.305x more.
• The Latron with 165% Damage, 55% Bane, 90% Heat, 90% Multishot, 150% CC, 120% CD, and 60% Fire Rate deals 21.77% of its Burst DPS as Heat procs.
• The Latron with 165% Damage, 55% Bane, 90% Heat, 90% Multishot, 150% CC, 120% CD, 60% Fire Rate, and 90% Status Chance deals 34.58% of its Burst DPS as Heat procs, 1.195x more.

The damage multiplier on the Phantasma is only 1.09x larger than the Latron despite having 1.85x higher base Status Chance and an insane 32x higher proc rate.

Meanwhile the Latron's crit multiplier using the same stat values grew 1.5x larger, going from 1.12 to 2.02 while the Phantasma's Crit Multiplier went from 1.02 to 1.17. And the Rubico Prime, which sits in between the two with the 90% Status mod multiplying total Burst DPS by ~1.24x has its crit multiplier grow 3.59x from the two crit mods!

So yes, base status does affect how total burst DPS grows. But in this case not by much, and it's scaling much more evenly than scaling from crit. I'd imagine what you're seeing in your specific case is largely due to Viral procs, which I'm not modeling yet, so if you give me the build I can model the whole thing sometime.

(Edit: It occurred to me this morning that the scaling difference is probably just a type of diminishing returns. If you have a weapon that deals 10 DPS from direct damage and 10 DPS from procs, the procs make up 50% of the total DPS. Doubling the procs makes them deal 66% of the total DPS (10:20), 1.32x more. Adding another 10 DPS from procs brings it to 75% of the total DPS (10:30), only 1.13x more than before. The more you increase the damage of the procs on their own, the more new stats it takes to get the same multiplier again. This is the same kind of behaviour found in the scaling of any stat, where adding more of the same stat produces lower and lower subsequent multipliers. And since the starting percentage of proc DPS depends on the base stats, different weapons stat on the same curve at different locations. Something like that.)

But either way, let's say that I'm totally wrong and that Status actually makes a ginormous amount of difference just like crit mods do. So maybe making Status additive would be a good idea as well! Which I've said it might be. Multiple times.

On 2021-09-17 at 9:51 AM, PublikDomain said:

Though this isn't to completely dismiss making Status additive. It might be worth exploring!

On 2021-09-17 at 10:06 AM, PublikDomain said:

But like I also said, making Status additive might be worth looking into.

Etc.