Detailed analysis of Hydroid

[Zabyr]

2 часа назад, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 сказал:

Hydroid and Revenant are trash and need complete overhauls.

[Numerikuu]

On 2023-03-12 at 7:46 PM, sunderthefirmament said:

I'm just asking for a Hydroid rework so he isn't obsolete.

Definitely needs some lovin', but he's not obsolete either. Sure, he's no Khora and doesn't have a synergising ability that wipes enemies caught up in his tentacles, but you know what does? An AoE weapon. He's a 'frame where you use your whole arsenal and not just spam 1 over and over. This makes him less mindless to play which I (and I assume the other mains) personally enjoy. Because lets face it, this game has far too many mind-numbing nuke frames as it is.

The only thing that irks me is his 3 and how poorly it synergises with the rest of his kit. His 1 isn't great either, and his passive is one of the worst in the game. Out of all his abilities I like his 2 the most, but ever since the bug introduced where you can no longer aim glide and cast it's definitely taken away from the fun of it (god I hope they fix this in Duviri).

I hope he gets a rework, yet still maintains the image of a kraken-summoning badass pirate.

[sunderthefirmament]

30 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

He's a 'frame where you use your whole arsenal and not just spam 1 over and over.

Fair point. Optimal Khora play is really mindless and spammy, and I honestly can’t stand playing as her. The whipclaw LoS nerf didn’t make her more skill based, as the LoS check just feels wonky and unreliable. I would love a rework for Khora too, and all statstick frames. 
 

But if you want a stationary CC farming frame, arguably all that Hydroid is and was, Khora’s still a better fit in modern Warframe. May they both get the reworks they deserve. 

[ShogunGunshow]

"He's so bad I get to rely on my arsenal more" is not a positive.

[Numerikuu]

44 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

"He's so bad I get to rely on my arsenal more" is not a positive.

Neither is it a negative. Personally I enjoy needing to use my weapons and not spamming one key over and over. To me that means there's a flaw within the games power structure. What point is there having weapons at all?

Regardless, different strokes for different folks. Doesn't mean I don't agree with you regarding him needing some love (though personally if there was a frame I felt needed it even more, it's Inaros).

Edited April 20, 2023 by Numerikuu

[Hypernaut1]

I see why people want him buffed. Personally, I like having at least one or two frames that takes a bit of effort to play. It's not like anything in his kit is broken, it's just not OP. 

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

19 hours ago, Zabyr said:

IKR. It’s exhausting that it constantly need to be brung up. But until DE does something this is the only thing we can do.

[rhoenix]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

IKR. It’s exhausting that it constantly need to be brung up. But until DE does something this is the only thing we can do.

I have to ask.  How is Revenant "trash?" 

Hydroid, I can definitely see.  But Revenant?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 minutes ago, rhoenix said:

I have to ask.  How is Revenant "trash?" 

Hydroid, I can definitely see.  But Revenant?

His 1 is useless because it doesn’t exist in public squads.

Before his 2 got over buffed it was also useless.

His 3 is useless because its only valuable function is reliant on his 1. Which does not exist.

His 4’s decent, but was unjustly nerfed to force player interaction with the rest of Rev’s kit.

Pair that with the questionable design choices of “Let’s give this frame who has invulnerability a self heal” or “Let’s give his 4 scaling damage on hit  despite the fact that his 2 actively stops enemies from attacking him” and most importantly “Why would we give the Eidolon themed Warframe Eidolon themed powers? Let’s give him vampire powers! To hell with theme adherence!”

[rhoenix]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

His 1 is useless because it doesn’t exist in public squads.

Before his 2 got over buffed it was also useless.

His 3 is useless because its only valuable function is reliant on his 1. Which does not exist.

His 4’s decent, but was unjustly nerfed to force player interaction with the rest of Rev’s kit.

Pair that with the questionable design choices of “Let’s give this frame who has invulnerability a self heal” or “Let’s give his 4 scaling damage on hit  despite the fact that his 2 actively stops enemies from attacking him” and most importantly “Why would we give the Eidolon themed Warframe Eidolon themed powers? Let’s give him vampire powers! To hell with theme adherence!”

Since you're expressing your opinion, I won't say you're wrong - I'll just say that I don't agree.  In my view, he's one of the tankiest and most versatile frames - hence my question.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, rhoenix said:

Since you're expressing your opinion, I won't say you're wrong - I'll just say that I don't agree.  In my view, he's one of the tankiest and most versatile frames - hence my question.

He’s one of the tankiness rn because DE decided “Hey let’s give this frame a free 20 seconds of being unkillable with no build up or drawbacks” even tho that completely goes against how all the other tank abilities are designed. And he’s not versatile. Literally the only thing I see people value him for is being an unkillable gun holder and his 4 for low levels.

He’s pretty much in the same spot old Wukong used to be.

[rhoenix]

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

He’s one of the tankiness rn because DE decided “Hey let’s give this frame a free 20 seconds of being unkillable with no build up or drawbacks” even tho that completely goes against how all the other tank abilities are designed.

Except Baruuk.  Therefore, there is precedent.

55 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And he’s not versatile. Literally the only thing I see people value him for is being an unkillable gun holder and his 4 for low levels.

Revenant and Baruuk are two of the more tanky frames in the game, due to how their defensive abilities function.  The main difference between the two is that Baruuk's will disarm opponents, and Revenant's will put enemies to sleep who shoot at you.  Due to both of them being charge-based rather than duration-based, as with other tank frames, both of them function very well in the Index, for example.

Even if he is nothing more than an "unkillable gun holder," which is a perspective I don't share by the way, that pretty means that whatever issues there are with his kit, it isn't trash.  Uninspired?  Maybe.  Needing an update?  Likely. 

Trash?  No - especially since I see other people talk about Revenant being OP right now.

If you don't like him, that's fine.  Don't use the frame.

[sunderthefirmament]

9 hours ago, rhoenix said:

Trash?  No - especially since I see other people talk about Revenant being OP right now.

He’s as popular as pre-nerf Wukong was in Archon Hunts, especially the last phase. I wonder if this will eventually lead to a nerf. My guess is that if it does, it won’t be for a while yet due to Archon Hunts being only a small subset of what people actually play in this game. 
 

Still, with death being so heavily penalized there and the bosses being immune to frame abilities, it kind of does feel like you’re “doing it wrong” if you’re not using Revenant or someone similarly tanky. And that has been used to justify nerfs in the past. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

11 hours ago, rhoenix said:

Except Baruuk.  Therefore, there is precedent.

Revenant and Baruuk are two of the more tanky frames in the game, due to how their defensive abilities function.  The main difference between the two is that Baruuk's will disarm opponents, and Revenant's will put enemies to sleep who shoot at you.  Due to both of them being charge-based rather than duration-based, as with other tank frames, both of them function very well in the Index, for example.

Even if he is nothing more than an "unkillable gun holder," which is a perspective I don't share by the way, that pretty means that whatever issues there are with his kit, it isn't trash.  Uninspired?  Maybe.  Needing an update?  Likely. 

Trash?  No - especially since I see other people talk about Revenant being OP right now.

If you don't like him, that's fine.  Don't use the frame.

IDK what Baruuk has to do with this, but that’s not why he’s tanky. Baruuk is tanky because both his 3 and his passive grant DR and combined with defense mods you become practically unkillable. The fact that he loses DR from Being too close to enemies is what balances him out.

Revenants mesmer charges has a 1 second grace period before another charge is consumed. Meaning the number of charges you have grant you a guaranteed number of second to be completely unkillable because you have 100% damage negation and status immunity. There is nothing that balances that out. You just cast your ability and become literally unkillable.

Mesmer Skin is an invincibility power that’s acting like a 90% DR power.

Edited April 21, 2023 by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301

[rhoenix]

5 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

He’s as popular as pre-nerf Wukong was in Archon Hunts, especially the last phase. I wonder if this will eventually lead to a nerf. My guess is that if it does, it won’t be for a while yet due to Archon Hunts being only a small subset of what people actually play in this game. 
 

Still, with death being so heavily penalized there and the bosses being immune to frame abilities, it kind of does feel like you’re “doing it wrong” if you’re not using Revenant or someone similarly tanky. And that has been used to justify nerfs in the past. 

I can grant you this one.  It's for this reason I actually once started a big long essay in Feedback about how Warframe abilities should typically be rebalanced (e.g. to ensure a frame has at least one DR-type ability regardless of basis; whether it's evasion, flat DR, or whatever), one ability for team support, one offensive ability, and one wildcard slot for whatever fits their theme.

However, that would require reworking all the frames to fit that idea, which... is unlikely at this point.

[rhoenix]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Revenants mesmer charges has a 1 second grace period before another charge is consumed. Meaning the number of charges you have grant you a guaranteed number of second to be completely unkillable because you have 100% damage negation and status immunity. There is nothing that balances that out. You just cast your ability and become literally unkillable.

Mesmer Skin is an invincibility power that’s acting like a 90% DR power.

Yes, this is true.  More importantly, this directly contradicts your earlier assertion that the frame is "trash."

I can certainly agree with you that his abilities could use another balancing pass.  However, I don't agree with you that Revenant is in anywhere close to the same spot as Hydroid because of those issues.

[PsiWarp]

Fingers-crossed for the water frame to finally make enemies soaking wet.

[rhoenix]

7 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Fingers-crossed for the water frame to finally make enemies soaking wet.

There really is a lot of potential for Hydroid to be a good frame, just not with his current ability set.  If they made him be more of an opposite to Yareli - tank frame, with CC and team support abilities - he could shine.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, rhoenix said:

Yes, this is true.  More importantly, this directly contradicts your earlier assertion that the frame is "trash."

I can certainly agree with you that his abilities could use another balancing pass.  However, I don't agree with you that Revenant is in anywhere close to the same spot as Hydroid because of those issues.

Wukong was trash despite not being able to die. 
You’re right tho. Revenant isn’t in the same spot as Hydroid. He FAR worse off than Ole Wetbeard.

On 2023-04-20 at 10:24 AM, Numerikuu said:

Neither is it a negative. Personally I enjoy needing to use my weapons and not spamming one key over and over. To me that means there's a flaw within the games power structure. What point is there having weapons at all?

Regardless, different strokes for different folks. Doesn't mean I don't agree with you regarding him needing some love (though personally if there was a frame I felt needed it even more, it's Inaros).

Relying on your Arsenal more isn’t a bad thing if the frames abilities directly benefit using weapons (like Citrine). But Hydroids abilities do not.

[rhoenix]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wukong was trash despite not being able to die. 
You’re right tho. Revenant isn’t in the same spot as Hydroid. He FAR worse off than Ole Wetbeard.

Yes.  Being unkillable definitely makes Revenant much, much worse off than Hydroid.  In a terrible, horrible, lamentably bad state, in fact.  You are indeed the great and all-seeing Oracle of Warframe for revealing this hidden, horrifying knowledge to the masses.  I do hope everyone's mind can hope with the awful weight of this terrible truth. 

I know that I am forever changed by this knowledge, to the point where I now mark all memories before this terrible earth-cracking truth, and after its awful quaking had settled.  Forevermore, I will now take Revenant into high-level missions and try not to break into chest-heaving sobs at how truly terrible a frame he is compared to Hydroid.  My entire reality has been shattered, and now all lies in pieces. 

Or, I'm laughing at the utter absurd edginess of the comparison.  One of the two, anyway.

[Numerikuu]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Relying on your Arsenal more isn’t a bad thing if the frames abilities directly benefit using weapons (like Citrine). But Hydroids abilities do not.

Agreed there, which is why it would be nice if his passive was changed to reflect that. Have his weapons deal more damage to enemies trapped/primed by his abilities perhaps.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

15 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Agreed there, which is why it would be nice if his passive was changed to reflect that. Have his weapons deal more damage to enemies trapped/primed by his abilities perhaps.

That'd be a copy of Vauban's passive. I think Tentacle Swarm needs the same type of damage linking feature that Undertow has (see below), although that feature should probably be buffed.

Spoiler

• Allied players can shoot into Undertow to contribute 50% of their total damage from weapons and abilities, distributed evenly to all submerged enemies.

For Hydroid's passive: Assuming that spawning a tentacle on slam isn't ever going to be useful, I could see Hydroid getting some kind of effect tied to pickups; maybe a heal or weapon buff. It'd be a pretty unique effect condition that ties into Hydroid's roots as a plundering pirate.

[PsiWarp]

Hydroid's passive... should be forming small puddles. Puddles form over time when it rains, gradually and passively. Makes sense.

So have all of his powers form puddles, like in the middle of a Tempest Barrage, where you cast Tidal Surge and where you crash, and one around the Kraken. All of which use Undertow's mechanics (damage build-up from time and enemy count, damage and status distribution)... then let Hydroid puddle-hop by reforming himself inside any one of them for his tactic relocation.

[Numerikuu]

Bumping for Pablo, since he's requesting people's feedback via Twitter 👀

[Zabyr]

5 часов назад, Numerikuu сказал:

Bumping for Pablo, since he's requesting people's feedback via Twitter 👀

Thank you for the information. I have replied to Pablo, hopefully he will reply to me 🤞