Next Prime after Garuda?

[nslay]

29 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

I'd rather have a usable melee weapon.

I'd rather have a useable and performant Khora.

Until Exalted melees are more powerful than normal melees, asking for exalted Whipclaw is a HUGE nerf and would ruin the frame outright.

[sunderthefirmament]

8 hours ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

They possibly needed more time to make Khora's exalted whip work.

At least that's my hope - stat sticks are an outdated concept, and releasing another prime that depends on it would be a great loss.

I really hope you're right.  Khora is powerful, but her optimal gameplay loop boils down to statstick abuse and spamming 1 on repeat.  She's not interesting to play.

[arstrd]

gauss pls

[Jarriaga]

56 minutes ago, nslay said:

I'd rather have a useable and performant Khora.

Until Exalted melees are more powerful than normal melees, asking for exalted Whipclaw is a HUGE nerf and would ruin the frame outright.

 

25 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I really hope you're right.  Khora is powerful, but her optimal gameplay loop boils down to statstick abuse and spamming 1 on repeat.  She's not interesting to play.

Khora existed before Accumulating Whipclaw. If builds resolve around a specific mod so a WF becomes "usable" there's a fundamental flaw with the WF's design, or with the mod's design.

Spamming should not be encouraged. That's the exact same reason why I don't like Mesa.

[sunderthefirmament]

14 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Khora existed before Accumulating Whipclaw. If builds resolve around a specific mod so a WF becomes "usable" there's a fundamental flaw with the WF's design, or with the mod's design.

Spamming should not be encouraged. That's the exact same reason why I don't like Mesa.

Even without Accumulating Whipclaw, her gameplay loop would still largely be 1, 1, 1, 1, 1... to maintain combo, and also because the rest of her abilities don't really need to be used much. 

 

I know that current exalteds tend to be a downgrade to statsticks in terms of DPS, but there's no reason why a Khora touch-up couldn't put her in a similar state to Baruuk's exalted.  Not Wukong's.  There are some good exalteds in this game.  Baruuk, Titania, and Mesa come to mind.  And if Khora gets a proper exalted, then she could bring a full loadout into missions and be more interesting to use than she is now.

 

I'm hoping that Khora Prime's delay has more to do with time for changes than it does with lining up a popular frame for a Tennocon release.

[nslay]

24 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Khora existed before Accumulating Whipclaw. If builds resolve around a specific mod so a WF becomes "usable" there's a fundamental flaw with the WF's design, or with the mod's design.

Ah, but we're not talking about Accumulating Whipclaw. Go back and read my posts.

[nslay]

10 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Even without Accumulating Whipclaw, her gameplay loop would still largely be 1, 1, 1, 1, 1... to maintain combo, and also because the rest of her abilities don't really need to be used much. 

 

I know that current exalteds tend to be a downgrade to statsticks in terms of DPS, but there's no reason why a Khora touch-up couldn't put her in a similar state to Baruuk's exalted.  Not Wukong's.  There are some good exalteds in this game.  Baruuk, Titania, and Mesa come to mind.  And if Khora gets a proper exalted, then she could bring a full loadout into missions and be more interesting to use than she is now.

 

I'm hoping that Khora Prime's delay has more to do with time for changes than it does with lining up a popular frame for a Tennocon release.

The irony of complaining about Khora's more sophisticated and intricate playstyle that exploits the melee combo system, synergies, companions and energy management... you mention Mesa as having a "good" exalted weapon.

If you think Kora's gameplay loop is boring what with her all setup and synergies, what do you think of Mesa's aimbot gameplay loop where you just press a button and hold LMB down... sometimes refresh and press it again? Can you even go below boring?

[sunderthefirmament]

Just now, nslay said:

The irony of complaining about Khora's more sophisticated and intricate playstyle that exploits the melee combo system, synergies, companions and energy management... you mention Mesa as having a "good" exalted weapon.

If you think Kora's gameplay loop is boring what with her all setup and synergies, what do you think of Mesa's aimbot gameplay loop where you just press a button and hold LMB down... sometimes refresh and press it again? Can you even go below boring?

"Good" as in powerful in the current game.  I used Mesa to trivialize Scarlet Spear.  I use Mesa for void defense when it shows up in a sortie or incursion.  Beyond that, I don't really use her at all.  She's not terribly engaging to play, and if I ever gave the impression that I thought her gameplay was sound, then my apologies for the miscommunication.  Mesa is a mess too.  She's a different type of mess than Khora, though they are both quite strong.  Mesa's mess is that she's a boring egg-timer buff frame with a dead first ability and a fourth ability so powerful it carries the rest of her kit.

[nslay]

9 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

"Good" as in powerful in the current game.  I used Mesa to trivialize Scarlet Spear.  I use Mesa for void defense when it shows up in a sortie or incursion.  Beyond that, I don't really use her at all.  She's not terribly engaging to play, and if I ever gave the impression that I thought her gameplay was sound, then my apologies for the miscommunication.  Mesa is a mess too.  She's a different type of mess than Khora, though they are both quite strong.  Mesa's mess is that she's a boring egg-timer buff frame with a dead first ability and a fourth ability so powerful it carries the rest of her kit.

I used Khora to trivialize Scarlet Spear. But I definitely agree that Mesa is a way to cheese Defense (cause Defense is boring! Fight boring with boring, right?)

Here's how engaging Khora is (this was back when you could use Helios with Gladiator). Every single part of my build does something (except primary/secondary)... and I could pull a solo run of ESO with no energy problems before Helminth even existed. No Zenurik or anything! Every ability, companion, and the melee weapon did something valuable.

Spoiler

 

This was made back when people thought Xoris made Khora more powerful. Tell me that's not awesome!

I don't have any other Warframe where all 4 abilities, companions, and the melee weapon all intricately fit and work together like that! Do you honestly believe that's boring? Look how cool that is!

I guess post Helios nerf, Dethcube is the one to use with its augment. And put some Gladiator mods on the melee weapon (e.g. Organ Shatter for Gladiator Might or whatever it was).

EDIT: I don't remember if I use Ensnare when I was playing Khora during this time. But I do use Ensnare at the beginning of ESO waves to ball up enemies to build combo fast!

[sunderthefirmament]

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

I used Khora to trivialize Scarlet Spear. But I definitely agree that Mesa is a way to cheese Defense (cause Defense is boring! Fight boring with boring, right?)

Here's how engaging Khora is (this was back when you could use Helios with Gladiator). Every single part of my build does something (except primary/secondary)... and I could pull a solo run of ESO with no energy problems before Helminth even existed. No Zenurik or anything! Every ability, companion, and the melee weapon did something valuable.

  Hide contents

 

This was made back when people thought Xoris made Khora more powerful. Tell me that's not awesome!

I don't have any other Warframe where all 4 abilities, companions, and the melee weapon all intricately fit and work together like that! Do you honestly believe that's boring? Look how cool that is!

Seeing an awful lot of 1 spam.  It's the same animation, same sound effect, same result every time.  It's not interesting.  I'm not going to call it weak, though.  It's obviously very strong.  But it's a singular ability.  Yes, it's propped up by a statstick system that is murky for newer (and experienced) players.

 

I do hope that if Khora's 1 gets replaced with a proper exalted, it will still retain its synergies with rest of her kit.  I should give Khora some credit.  Her 1 does interact with her other abilities.

[nslay]

Just now, sunderthefirmament said:

Seeing an awful lot of 1 spam.  It's the same animation, same sound effect, same result every time.  It's not interesting.  I'm not going to call it weak, though.  It's obviously very strong.  But it's a singular ability.  Yes, it's propped up by a statstick system that is murky for newer (and experienced) players.

 

I do hope that if Khora's 1 gets replaced with a proper exalted, it will still retain its synergies with rest of her kit.  I should give Khora some credit.  Her 1 does interact with her other abilities.

So first of all... you do understand that there's no Energizing Dash in there. I have no guaranteed free energy! And you do see me using syndicate effects (compounded by building combo), right? And you see how the companions are proccing Synth mods to feed Equilibrium and Health Conversion, no? And you know that Helios' Gladiator mods are enhancing Whipclaw?

I think you need to try playing Warframe with an energy-hungry frame without using Helminth or Zenurik.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

So first of all... you do understand that there's no Energizing Dash in there. I have no guaranteed free energy! And you do see me using syndicate effects (compounded by building combo), right? And you see how the companions are proccing Synth mods to feed Equilibrium and Health Conversion, no? And you know that Helios' Gladiator mods are enhancing Whipclaw?

I think you need to try playing Warframe with an energy-hungry frame without using Helminth or Zenurik.

I'm not really sure why you're talking about energy at all, though I will say that I do like using Rakta Dark Dagger for my particularly thirsty builds.  Synoid Gammacor too.

 

But to get back to what this post is supposed to be about, let me reiterate.  I hope that Khora Prime's delay is due to some changes in her kit.  The most complex part about playing Khora currently is setting up a statstick.  After that, it's 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, and done.  In all likelihood, I expect the delay is due to Khora being far more popular than Garuda, thereby making her a better fit for a Tennocon release.  I fully expect her kit to remain intact.  But I've been wrong before!  The changes to Garuda were welcome, and they completely caught me by surprise.

[nslay]

9 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I'm not really sure why you're talking about energy at all, though I will say that I do like using Rakta Dark Dagger for my particularly thirsty builds.  Synoid Gammacor too.

 

But to get back to what this post is supposed to be about, let me reiterate.  I hope that Khora Prime's delay is due to some changes in her kit.  The most complex part about playing Khora currently is setting up a statstick.  After that, it's 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, and done.  In all likelihood, I expect the delay is due to Khora being far more popular than Garuda, thereby making her a better fit for a Tennocon release.  I fully expect her kit to remain intact.  But I've been wrong before!  The changes to Garuda were welcome, and they completely caught me by surprise.

What I am saying is... there's a lot more happening in that gameplay than you realize or acknowledge. And energy management is KEY when you have no guaranteed source of energy. And it's really quite something to be able to walk through 8 zones of ESO like that.

When you're playing Naramon (like in that video) and in a constrained environment like ESO (no pizzas), the most complex part about playing Khora is energy management. It's rendered laughably easy now with Helminth, but that video predates Helminth. Rakta is providing a redundant source of energy, Synth mods and Equilibrium provide redundant sources of energy, and Arcane Energize helps if you can get an Energy Orb (sometimes). The most reliable fallback is Rakta Dark Dagger augment's syndicate effect.

EDIT: There isn't a single Warframe I have where so many moving parts play important roles. And all 4 abilities are useful (well, just Venari's existence, really). Even the Helios was important (and beyond Vacuum)!

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

If the order is maintained should be khora. To get an idea of what primes when go every 3 months. 2 males them 2 females in the general order of their original release.

[Voltage]

On 2022-03-30 at 1:45 AM, Tiltskillet said:

There's speculation that's exactly why they were switched.   Khora would make a bigger splash for Tennocon.

It's half speculation and half obvious business decision.

[PollexMessier]

It's Khora guaranteed (likely her mele Dual Keres, and secondary Histrix along with her). Then it will be Revenant and Baruuk, Hildren and Wisp, then Gauss and Grendel. The order beyond that is difficult to predict because one of the next two frames in line is Xaku

Their release pattern is pretty well documented at this point. M,M,F,F oldest first with the chance of two being flipped only if they're the same gender.

Xaku is a weird outlier to this rule set though. Being made of multiple frames and not having a defined gender they might not get a prime. If I were in charge I'd slot xaku in between a male and female release instead of replacing one of them but that's just me. That or not prime Xaku at all.

[sunderthefirmament]

15 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Xaku is a weird outlier to this rule set though. Being made of multiple frames and not having a defined gender they might not get a prime. If I were in charge I'd slot xaku in between a male and female release instead of replacing one of them but that's just me. That or not prime Xaku at all.

They will absolutely get a prime.  

 

Varzia Dax revealed that some primes were primed from the start.  Others had to earn it.  This simple line opens the door to any frame, regardless of lore, being primed.

[V2lkyr]

2 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Xaku is a weird outlier to this rule set though. Being made of multiple frames and not having a defined gender they might not get a prime. If I were in charge I'd slot xaku in between a male and female release instead of replacing one of them but that's just me. That or not prime Xaku at all.

I think they'll just release Xaku alongside Protea and say it's for the sake of the release date and not their gender.

[Tiltskillet]

8 hours ago, Voltage said:

It's half speculation and half obvious business decision.

It's easy to think of other reasons. And there might not only be one reason. 

Good question for the next Q&A, I guess, lolzzz.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Personally I think khora prime should get a prime whip melee weapon it would roll well with her theme.

All frames will get a prime eventually. My guess is they may as well fit zaku in with the 2x female release. Simply because the frames made from parts of 2 females and 1 male frame. Plus the design comes off as more feminine especially the early concept art.

I refer to fashion my zaku as a female. They could be really fancy with the prime. Each time you use the alt and reform have the completed frames in their original predestroyed forms. Could literally give zaku 3 distinct forms.