Nerfs to abilities for more skill-based gameplay

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-10 at 4:05 AM, (PSN)blakfayt said:

Let's do a hypothetical with something entirely skill based, CS:GO. Let's say they add levels, like our enemies have in Warframe. A player that is level 10 will smoke one that's level 1. It doesn't matter if the level 1 is good at the game if a bullet does his whole HP bar instantly. The level 10 can put on an AK and go ham. This is like a frame having a full mod loadout or a grineer heavy gunner at a sufficiently high level. Example, a level 50 gunner will delete a new player with an unranked vitality mod. The newbie jumping and rolling just won't out pace enemy spray and pray. He will get hit eventually and die.

As long as this can happen, there will always be more gear than skill check. A good player might utilize shield gating in the above instance, which is a skill based system with a gear check ( hard to do without the right mods and abilities but requires skill to use.) However, as the devs want people to play all the content, the ceiling of power will always have to rise. This means the next update will implement something to help the skill-less along. To ask the game to have ANY skill based gameplay is to ask the devs to stop giving out upgrades, make content inaccessible to those that don't want to "git gud" and alienate the player base that's here for explody good times, OR streamline damage from and to enemies, cap levels and scaling properties, and change the whole basis of the game. There isn't a nerf you can think of that won't have to have SOME work around for those less capable than yourself unless the game changes as a whole.

RPG elements mean outscaling your enemies or being outscaled is possible. This would have to be changed or removed to have actual skill based gameplay, otherwise what you spend 20 minutes doing skillfully, I wait two updates, get the new frame that can fly through walls and summon an invincibility barrier to complete with ease. If you think that's not EXACTLY what would happen, remember that eidolons were originally 4 party end game bosses, until we got necramechs that can kill them from a mile off in one shot, and the focus rework gave us a new Madurai that allows even non meta amps to delete shields.

I spent a while addressing each thing you said, but I think I'm going to respond to it as a whole. From what I understood, you're basically saying that there's no point in players needing more skill, because you can just build to compensate for that, correct?

I think it's completely fine to get more power from your build. Having a good build requires less skill, but it does not remove all skill needed. The thing I don't like is, invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE require no skill.

In this hypothetical CS:GO, it doesn't matter what a your level or skill is, if you're versing someone who can go invincible, invisible or can kill you with having seen you, then you've lost! Their abilities take out any level or skill that you have, because invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE is the deciding factor.

• A level 10 player requires more skill to take down than a level 9 player, but if you can go invincible, invisible or use non-LoS AoE, no extra skill is needed.
• In a match where a level 10 verses a level 10, it does not matter if one is more skillful, as the one with invincibility, invisibility or non-LoS AoE would win.

I think it's good that your build makes things easier. I think abilities should also make things easier and not out right remove the need to do anything skillful.

• Damage reduction would make managing hits easier, but invincibility removes the need to.
• Invisibility (that breaks) would make avoiding damage easier, but normal invisibility removes the need to.
• LoS AoE would make reducing enemy threats easier, but non-LoS AoE removes any potential enemy threats.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

Play your heart out, you'll still die if your base statline isn't up to snuff. 

I don't understand this one.

Are you claiming that "up to snuff" is invincibility and invisibility?

• If so, I think it's a big stretch to say that you will die without invincibility and invisibility

Or are you claiming that you can't stay alive if you don't have a good build?

• If so, I never said you can't have a good build to help stay alive.

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

Harrow would lose a critical component

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

In Harrow's case, you might have to redo the entire Warframe, with how his kit flows in terms of synergies

How is his invincibility a critical component? and why would changing it to damage reduction make it less critical?

How does changing his invincibility change his synergies?

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

It shouldn't be balanced around that. But those situations are in the game and they are the current balancing point.

You say it shouldn't be balanced around that, but then seem fine that it's balanced around that. What do you actually think about it?

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

If you want a frame to be considered 'viable', they need to be able to compete across all content. If they can't, their usage rate is going to suffer dearly. 

So why is the solution to add invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE?

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

But constantly moving is not a lot of skill expression

At least it's more than invincibility and invisibility, which is the point of my changes.

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

Harrow, for example, has very limited control since his 1 has a very narrow path, leaving him vulnerable to attacks from the other, what, 300 degrees?

That means you would have to use your 1 more skillfully to get the most out of it, which is what I'm after.

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

And it's very ironic that you're referring to spoiler mode, since that is literally a baseline invincibility form, going against everything you're arguing for.

I think spoiler mode is fine because you can not control your Warframe while it is invincible. To say that an uncontrollable invincible Warframe is the same thing as what I'm arguing for, is nonsensical.

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

It is unclear what your exact goal is

More skill-based gameplay.

On 2022-09-10 at 6:10 AM, Colyeses said:

because it doesn't match up to what the game is

Explanation please.

 

I left out some of your other things you said because it seems that you're ignoring what I'm saying, or you're ignoring that certain parts of the game exist, which would leads me to just repeat myself or derail the point.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-10 at 9:21 AM, Ceadeus said:

will only further reinforce the most braindead OP options anybody can get their hands on to avoid having to deal with the new hurdles you'd have created

I believe that the most braindead OP options right now is invincibility, invisilibty and non-LoS AoE, which is why I want to change them!

The hurdles consist of avoiding damage and being in LoS of enemies, both things that are already being done by the player.

On 2022-09-10 at 9:21 AM, Ceadeus said:

Just making things do more damage or you take more damage or deal less damage or whatever does not create an environment of "skill" it just creates an environment that's not fun to play

Not only is fun a very subjective thing so you can't factually claim that, but it's a mindset and not a value. My changes do not take out any ability to have fun.

On 2022-09-10 at 9:21 AM, Ceadeus said:

This is a horde shooter with bullet sponge bosses.  There is no room for "skill" in that design.

How so?

[Colyeses]

15 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

Are you claiming that "up to snuff" is invincibility and invisibility?

Effectively, yes. Your frame must be either invincible or so damn tanky that it emulates invincibility.

16 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

How is his invincibility a critical component?

You use his 1 to fuel his 2, but his 2 removes all shields and effectively leaves him at 1 HP, so a stray bullet can kill him, so you use the 4 to alleviate that problem. So dropping his 4 will adversely impact his 1 and 2 as well.

18 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

You say it shouldn't be balanced around that, but then seem fine that it's balanced around that. What do you actually think about it?

What I think is that your suggestions being put into the game as it currently is would kill off the frames you listed.

19 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

So why is the solution to add invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE?

Because then you shift the burden of survivability from the base statline to the frame's kit. No matter how bad your frame's base statline is, they can't die while invincible.

20 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

At least it's more than invincibility and invisibility, which is the point of my changes

You know what? I'm actually going to contest you on that one.

What makes CTRL + Spacebar spamming more skillful than managing your energy and fulfilling the conditions required to use your invulnerability or invis? Prowl actually makes parkour difficult. Harrow must manage their downtime. Limbo can't do objectives. Hydroid and Valkyr need to maintain their energy. Inaros needs a viable target. All of them need to work around nullifiers.

So how's bullet jump spam, which is 100% unrestricted, more skillful?

25 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

That means you would have to use your 1 more skillfully to get the most out of it, which is what I'm after.

You can't 'skillful' your way into getting a 360 sweep with Penance. Any enemy you don't hit is going to kill you.

26 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

I think spoiler mode is fine because you can not control your Warframe while it is invincible. To say that an uncontrollable invincible Warframe is the same thing as what I'm arguing for, is nonsensical

Except you also marked Devour as a problem, and that also removes control of your Warframe. And Cloud Walker won't let you do anything other than move.

28 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

More skill-based gameplay.

But you are not adding to the game. You're not adding any skill expression. You're just tossing a kid into the deep and shouting 'swim harder!' at him without giving him the tools to actually swim. 

You're just stripping things away because you don't like them. 

30 minutes ago, Gorlust said:

Explanation please.

Warframe isn't skill-based. Removing things from it won't make it more skill-based.

[Chaos0Frenzy]

Please don't ruin my favorite game with these changes. This would be as bad as the wall running Stamina bar was people would quit playing in droves. This game is a power fantasy game at its core. Fealing overpowerd feels good. It's why people get addicted to this game.

[(PSN)blakfayt]

On 2022-09-12 at 8:47 AM, Gorlust said:

I spend a while addressing each thing you said, but I think I'm going to respond to it as a whole. From what I understood, you're basically saying that there's no point in players needing more skill, because you can just build to compensate for that, correct?

I think it's completely fine to get more power from your build. Having a good build requires less skill, but it does not remove all skill needed. The thing I don't like is, invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE require no skill.

In this hypothetical CS:GO, it doesn't matter what a your level or skill is, if you're versing someone who can go invincible, invisible or can kill you with having seen you, then you've lost! Their abilities take out any level or skill that you have, because invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE is the deciding factor.

• A level 10 player requires more skill to take down than a level 9 player, but if you can go invincible, invisible or use non-LoS AoE, no extra skill is needed.
• In a match where a level 10 verses a level 10, it does not matter if one is more skillful, as the one with invincibility, invisibility or non-LoS AoE would win.

I think it's good that your build makes things easier. I think abilities should also make things easier and not out right remove the need to do anything skillful.

• Damage reduction would make managing hits easier, but invincibility removes the need to.
• Invisibility (that breaks) would make avoiding damage easier, but normal invisibility removes the need to.
• LoS AoE would make reducing enemy threats easier, but non-LoS AoE removes any potential enemy threats.

In the hypothetical, it's balanced if you have a regenerating AoE shield that disables these powers within its reach (nullifiers), drones that make you immune to damage and crowd control (arby drones), and a laser guided hook that can yank the offending player on their butt for a dozen seconds, rendering most invuln times moot.

I'm going to be real with you here, as a Mastery 29 player with literally thousands of hours in the game, I die to enemies on the Zariman if I'm not playing a tank. I die to enemies on the Kuva Fortress sometimes even AS a tank. I honestly, really, DO NOT BELIEVE THAT PARKOUR GIVES ANY SURVIVABILITY OUTSIDE OF DODGE ROLLS, WHICH ARE TOO LONG AND CLUNKY TO BE USED AS ANY DECENT FORM OF DR. If you're not using shield gating, adaptation, or invincibility, once you leave level 30 content, you may as well die. I've actually died on the Zariman as Wisp, with a 300+% HP mote, all 3 motes actually, and adaptation running. Just because of how many enemies were around me in a big open space. I'm saying this because I want you to understand the position I'm replying from. You're saying, "Skill based gameplay would encourage players to use other forms of survivability" and my position is, "There aren't." You can't find a video, at least not easily, of someone doing, say, SP Void Survival without invincibility, or shield gating. In fact, the one video I found had a guy using a SPECTER and hiding behind a Volt shield and with an Ancient Healer specter to do all of his dirty work. Yeah, really easy to do no mods when you just cower behind a shield and let a glorified Wukong clone kill the level 9999 enemies for you.

Any player actually trying to do high level content without that stuff and without sheer invulnerability will simply die. You cannot parkour out of the way of a dozen enemies firing hit scan. The enemies past level 30 are overtuned as it is. Adaptation evens the playing field and you're saying that stays. Cool. That means that you can use any non-caster frame on the Zariman and Kuva Fortress, unless you build your caster like a tank. Enemies at level 100 and beyond will ANNIHILIATE anyone not abusing all the invulnerability we have. I'd like you to be reminded that most players found it impossible to play the likes of Banshee before the shield gating update because she couldn't survive, period. This is my point. Unless DE overhauls the enemy levels, damage, armor, everything, unless they rip into the guts of the RPG mechanics that are in place, you can't make the game more skill based. You can't take out the tools they've given us. If we woke up tomorrow and they removed those abilities and reverted shields, it would be a world where everyone sockets triple umbral and adaptation, again. Certain frames literally cannot take a hit, and saying that parkour mechanics fix that is bunk. Reducing the enemy AI's aim doesn't change the fact that a ramped up heavy gunner will hit you at least once before you cross the hallway to hit it. And if it doesn't the 15 other enemies in Steel Path or the Zariman, or the Fortress, will. And if you're playing Octavia with her 300|300 and invisibility that breaks, congratulations, you're just dead!

I'm not saying the changes you're talking about are impossible. I'm saying that it's ultra unrealistic that DE would invest literally millions, OBJECTIVELY MILLIONS when we're talking about manpower and time, to overhaul the ENTIRE GAME to make these changes not only work, not only implemented, but to make sure that you don't just flat out negate half or more of the 50 frames that are in the game. Keeping in mind that many players consider just about half the roster to be dead in the water as it is because of useless abilities, lack of survivability beyond gating, and generally outdated playstyles. And even if they DID change all of those things, and the playerbase DIDN'T buck harder than they have with the ammo changes, which they surely would, I guarantee that next update they'll put Necramechs in every mission so it totally invalidates ever even being inside of a frame when you can just be a walking ball of stats with an arquebex that deletes entire maps in seconds. Because they never learn.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

Effectively, yes. Your frame must be either invincible or so damn tanky that it emulates invincibility.

Stretch.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

removes all shields and effectively leaves him at 1 HP, so a stray bullet can kill him

Stretch.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

What I think is that your suggestions being put into the game as it currently is would kill off the frames you listed.

There is no goal for frames to be picked more.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

Because then you shift the burden of survivability from the base statline to the frame's kit. No matter how bad your frame's base statline is, they can't die while invincible.

Still does not explain why invincibility should be the solution, instead of damage reduction.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

What makes CTRL + Spacebar spamming more skillful than managing your energy and fulfilling the conditions required to use your invulnerability or invis?

I never claimed that energy management is not skillful.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

You can't 'skillful' your way into getting a 360 sweep with Penance

This does not relate to my changes.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

Any enemy you don't hit is going to kill you.

Stretch.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

Except you also marked Devour as a problem, and that also removes control of your Warframe. And Cloud Walker won't let you do anything other than move.

I already explained this.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

But you are not adding to the game. You're not adding any skill expression. You're just tossing a kid into the deep and shouting 'swim harder!' at him without giving him the tools to actually swim. 

The tools are still there, you just have to be better at using them because at the moment I think it takes no skill. Also, analogies don't mean anything.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

You're just stripping things away because you don't like them. 

Well, yeah.

On 2022-09-13 at 12:54 AM, Colyeses said:

Warframe isn't skill-based. Removing things from it won't make it more skill-based.

You restarted your point instead of explaining it.

 

You seem to be repeating the same points, expressing your points in an exaggerated situation where you forget you can do anything, or not relating to my changes. Sorry but I have lost a lot of interest in responding, I will not be, if your next reply is the same.

[Gorlust]

22 hours ago, Chaos0Frenzy said:

This game is a power fantasy game at its core. Fealing overpowerd feels good. It's why people get addicted to this game.

You still have that power, I'm not taking it away. You can still take heaps of damage, go invisible and AoE rooms of enemies. You just have to be more skillful in earning that power, since I think it takes no skill right now.

If the goal of the game was to be a power fantasy, would you like the game more if you were invincible, invisible and nuking all the time? Does it not feel better to earn the power, than to have it all the time without effort?

[Gorlust]

6 hours ago, (PSN)blakfayt said:

In the hypothetical, it's balanced if you have a regenerating AoE shield that disables these powers within its reach (nullifiers), drones that make you immune to damage and crowd control (arby drones), and a laser guided hook that can yank the offending player on their butt for a dozen seconds, rendering most invuln times moot.

Majority of enemies don't have these tools to fight back! Invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS is still overpowered in most situations (even more with lower levels) and it's never weaker in any situation at what it does, compared to more skillful ways. I would rather nerf the abilities, than to give every enemy a way to disable it.

6 hours ago, (PSN)blakfayt said:

I'm going to be real with you here, as a Mastery 29 player with literally thousands of hours in the game, I die to enemies on the Zariman if I'm not playing a tank. I die to enemies on the Kuva Fortress sometimes even AS a tank. I honestly, really, DO NOT BELIEVE THAT PARKOUR GIVES ANY SURVIVABILITY OUTSIDE OF DODGE ROLLS, WHICH ARE TOO LONG AND CLUNKY TO BE USED AS ANY DECENT FORM OF DR. If you're not using shield gating, adaptation, or invincibility, once you leave level 30 content, you may as well die. I've actually died on the Zariman as Wisp, with a 300+% HP mote, all 3 motes actually, and adaptation running. Just because of how many enemies were around me in a big open space. I'm saying this because I want you to understand the position I'm replying from. You're saying, "Skill based gameplay would encourage players to use other forms of survivability" and my position is, "There aren't." You can't find a video, at least not easily, of someone doing, say, SP Void Survival without invincibility, or shield gating. In fact, the one video I found had a guy using a SPECTER and hiding behind a Volt shield and with an Ancient Healer specter to do all of his dirty work. Yeah, really easy to do no mods when you just cower behind a shield and let a glorified Wukong clone kill the level 9999 enemies for you.

Since we are going on anecdotes, I will share my own side.

I have 4 accounts and my main account is legendary 1 now. Without invincibility, invisibility or non-LoS AoE:

• On my main account I can complete steel path missions without any defense mods on plenty of frames (most recently been playing Gyre).
• On my newer accounts without maxed or essential mods, I've joined my friends and completed high level content all the time <MR8.
• On one of my newer accounts, I solo farm the level 40-60 bounty at MR5.
• On my account that is aimed to have just Excalibur, I've completed tons of high level content with just him.

If I can do this, I think other players can at-least achieve the same with damage reduction, instead of using invincibility and automatically getting better results.

I die too sometimes, but I understand it's because I wasn't playing skillfully enough! If I were to use more methods of avoiding damage, I would have stayed alive in my situations. It only makes sense to me that the higher level content require you to use more, if not all (other than invincibility and invisibility) ways to avoid damage, otherwise what's the difference.

6 hours ago, (PSN)blakfayt said:

You can't take out the tools they've given us. If we woke up tomorrow and they removed those abilities and reverted shields, it would be a world where everyone sockets triple umbral and adaptation, again.

I'm not taking away the power of the abilities, you can still take heaps of damage, go invisible and AoE rooms of enemies.

I'm not asking for shields to be reverted either, and there's nothing stopping people from triple umbral and adaptation in my changes.

6 hours ago, (PSN)blakfayt said:

Certain frames literally cannot take a hit, and saying that parkour mechanics fix that is bunk.

Parkour does a lot but there are plenty more ways to avoid damage, if only one of them is being used, I expect players to die in the highest level content.

6 hours ago, (PSN)blakfayt said:

I'm not saying the changes you're talking about are impossible. I'm saying that it's ultra unrealistic that DE would invest literally millions, OBJECTIVELY MILLIONS when we're talking about manpower and time, to overhaul the ENTIRE GAME to make these changes not only work, not only implemented, but to make sure that you don't just flat out negate half or more of the 50 frames that are in the game.

Yeah I agree that these changes are unrealistic to implement right away, and all the extra time the nerfed frames would need to be buffed. But without taking time into account because it's undefinable, I think these changes will benefit the game immensely. I don't think my changes should be added just by themselves for the sake of other players, but I personally would rather play the current game with these changes in it right now.

6 hours ago, (PSN)blakfayt said:

I guarantee that next update they'll put Necramechs in every mission so it totally invalidates ever even being inside of a frame when you can just be a walking ball of stats with an arquebex that deletes entire maps in seconds. Because they never learn.

I agree with this aswell, unfortunately powercreep makes not only my changes, but more skill overall less possible :(

But until then, I believe the problem at the moment is with invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE, which is why I want them changed.

 

I really enjoyed responding to this reply.

[(PSN)Nagato_09716]

2 hours ago, Gorlust said:

You still have that power, I'm not taking it away. You can still take heaps of damage, go invisible and AoE rooms of enemies. You just have to be more skillful in earning that power, since I think it takes no skill right now.

If the goal of the game was to be a power fantasy, would you like the game more if you were invincible, invisible and nuking all the time? Does it not feel better to earn the power, than to have it all the time without effort?

Than it couldnt be a power fantasy 

[CopperBezel]

Erm, I would argue that that is, in fact, crucial to the experience of a power fantasy, because you have to feel like you've earned that power in some sense, and you need the sense that the enemy you're demolishing is in some sense a credible threat. That's also why Warframe is full of buffs that if you stop pressing buttons in the right order, you die in seconds, with the side effect that most of the skill of warframe is juggling counters and timers, and maybe some situational awareness for particular frames whose upkeep requires some strategy. (Of course, DE seems convinced that the mark of skill is the ability to make headshots quickly, which I will freely admit I'm very poor at myself.)

Gorlust, my understanding of your position on what is and isn't skill based is baffled by the fact that you approve of Nezha's Warding Halo, which is probably the simplest and least upkeep-intensive don't-die button to manage in the game at present. Doubly so when you started with Undertow and Hysteria as options for survival when they are abilities that actively slow your progress in completing mission objectives and contribute to you surviving comfortably to see the Mission Failed screen. The game was much better at killing you more often before Revised with the shield gating and other survivability changes that made a bunch of squishy casters viable again for the first time in years, which also had the clear benefit of bringing some variety to the gameplay and allowing people to play and build for frames other than the five that could previously hack it. 

I do actually think the approach DE has been taking since Melee 3.0 and Revised and things like the Focus Rework and even the ammo change now, removing arbitrary cruft and layers of bandaids to try to make the game more internally consistent, is actually making progress toward making challenges seem fair and solvable with the tools we're given without necessarily making them easy. And they of course have no problem doing that in cases like The New War and Veilbreaker where they get to decide the specific and narrow set of tools we're going to work with, it's just hard to balance anything to feel like the right level of challenge when players can encounter the same content with 50 times the firepower or 1/500 the effective health. But the more just-bad base systems they clean out, the closer they're getting. 

[(PSN)blakfayt]

5 hours ago, Gorlust said:

Majority of enemies don't have these tools to fight back! Invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS is still overpowered in most situations (even more with lower levels) and it's never weaker in any situation at what it does, compared to more skillful ways. I would rather nerf the abilities, than to give every enemy a way to disable it.

Since we are going on anecdotes, I will share my own side.

I have 4 accounts and my main account is legendary 1 now. Without invincibility, invisibility or non-LoS AoE:

• On my main account I can complete steel path missions without any defense mods on plenty of frames (most recently been playing Gyre).
• On my newer accounts without maxed or essential mods, I've joined my friends and completed high level content all the time <MR8.
• On one of my newer accounts, I solo farm the level 40-60 bounty at MR5.
• On my account that is aimed to have just Excalibur, I've completed tons of high level content with just him.

If I can do this, I think other players can at-least achieve the same with damage reduction, instead of using invincibility and automatically getting better results.

I die too sometimes, but I understand it's because I wasn't playing skillfully enough! If I were to use more methods of avoiding damage, I would have stayed alive in my situations. It only makes sense to me that the higher level content require you to use more, if not all (other than invincibility and invisibility) ways to avoid damage, otherwise what's the difference.

I'm not taking away the power of the abilities, you can still take heaps of damage, go invisible and AoE rooms of enemies.

I'm not asking for shields to be reverted either, and there's nothing stopping people from triple umbral and adaptation in my changes.

Parkour does a lot but there are plenty more ways to avoid damage, if only one of them is being used, I expect players to die in the highest level content.

Yeah I agree that these changes are unrealistic to implement right away, and all the extra time the nerfed frames would need to be buffed. But without taking time into account because it's undefinable, I think these changes will benefit the game immensely. I don't think my changes should be added just by themselves for the sake of other players, but I personally would rather play the current game with these changes in it right now.

I agree with this aswell, unfortunately powercreep makes not only my changes, but more skill overall less possible :(

But until then, I believe the problem at the moment is with invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE, which is why I want them changed.

 

I really enjoyed responding to this reply.

Anecdotally, the only reason I even bother playing WF right now is FOR the power creep. I would have deleted the game if it wasn't for archon shards. My friends have all abandoned the game as DE continues to cater towards people begging for a challenge when 3 of us in a squad on SP dies while having all the tools we have at our disposal. Where 90% of my deaths happen trying to get to cover or escape enemies. Every foe doesn't need nullification when two nullifiers and a couple of cryo moas can slow me to a crawl. When a heavy gunner can shred me out of the air mid bullet jump, sometimes mid roll.

I'd love to see a video of Gyre managing solo Steel Path without gating or defense mods, because I tried it with those and couldn't do it. Too many enemies, too much hit scan. It's not fun, it's frustrating. Everyone who argues for changes like you are just don't seem to get that this ain't fun for anyone but you. Your changes would smother the player base with a pillow. You can do these runs, great. Start a youtube channel teaching people how to solo SP without defense mods to raise the overall skill of the player base, then try again. Until then, you have to accept the fact that people are actually quitting the game NOW because of difficulty.

My friends don't want to play because Zariman and higher shreds caster frames, their favorites to play. We can't aim and be mobile, controllers suck for aiming at all in the first place. We can't even use abilities in the air since casting requires holding a trigger and pressing a button, you fall out of the air before most abilities cast. AoE weapons evened the edge out, but my last pal playing has decided to quit after the ammo changes because the only guns that let him compete with high end content are as good as dead, if not now then soon. DE doesn't care about losing, say, 5% of the player base to achieve a healthier game environment. I would guarantee taking away most forms of defense on squishier frames, like invis, would flat squash the game. Very few people are here to be skillful, especially when the game's main loop of farming stuff asks the player to go as fast as possible. Speed leads to mistakes, leads to death without safety nets, you're advocating less nets. WF wouldn't get an influx of players that suddenly want to be skillful, they already have games they like. You'd just run off the ones that like this game already.

[CopperBezel]

I kinda feel like that's a separate and equally daunting problem, that as Warframe embraces crossplay and becomes less and less an exclusively PC based game, the gameplay is showing its difficulty in translating to any input method other than a mouse and keyboard. I mean, mouse and keyboard has its limitations too, but they don't matter, because the platforming elements of Warframe's mobility are deliberately dumbed down to what you can accomplish with WASD and things like an endlessly forgiving double jump and immediate melee slam. I imagine those parkour challenges on Jupiter for opening Alad's labs could be made a hell of a lot more difficult if they were being calibrated for console input and I'd find myself having to dig out my controller pad just to get a few Captura scenes. I'd want to start asking some difficult questions like you know, what if maybe controller users got a bit of aim assist to make up for the gap...? I can't really imagine playing Warframe without depending on being able to pull absurd S#&amp;&#036; like casting, void slinging across the room, and casting a different frame ability before I touch the ground. Some abilities like Gauss's or Khora's 1 are just moves that you really-really want to have their own button, because they need to be chained in between jumps and rolls and sprints to be worth anything at all. 

[selig_fay]

59 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

what if maybe controller users got a bit of aim assist

It already exists. Crosshair movement is slowed down when an enemy is in your crosshairs. This is enough. No auto-aim.

[CopperBezel]

That's something I guess, but I don't know if "enough" exists. I've tried playing Warframe with a game pad on several brief occasions, and I don't know how anyone plays this game on a console and decides to continue playing it. I wouldn't have. 

[iHaku]

On 2022-09-09 at 7:14 PM, Colyeses said:

Well, there is Ivara for spy missions, but that's about all she does.

i mean, she's great for disruption. one of the only frames that's relatively easy to get to levelcap with. also has a very easy time in survival, tho not that good for survival resource farming.

i had an easy time doing the new archon fight with her aswell. tho sadly it seems like aerolyst dont have headshot points? maybe i just didnt hit them, but it seems that hitting the head doesnt trigger the bonus damage.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2022-08-17 at 6:26 AM, Gorlust said:

• Removed reduced recast cost 
• Changed elemental damage to viral 
• Removed damage 
• Changed all enemies to spread spores on death

Yes please. Why you would want to massively buff Saryn while demanding nerfs for everyone else is beyond me, but by all means.

[vixenpixel]

On 2022-08-17 at 6:26 AM, Gorlust said:

I feel that alot of Warframe’s missions are primarily based on your gear and how they cheese mechanics rather than your skill and how well you play. Call me a mad man, but I feel that nerfs need to be made to create a skill ceiling. Nothing will ever be challenging if you’re able to ignore all damage, avoid all danger and kill enemies you never saw.

 

Most invincibility abilities changed to damage reduction with status immunity:

• Harrow’s Covenant
• Hydroid’s Undertow
• Inaros’ Devour
• Loki’s Safeguard Switch
• Revenant’s Mesmer Skin and Reave
• Rhino’s Iron Skin
• Valkyr’s Hysteria
• Wukong’s Cloud Walker and Defy

Exceptions:

• Garuda’s Dread Mirror
• Gauss’ Kinetic Plating at max battery
• Limbo’s Rift
• Nyx’s Absorb

Why?

Being invincible takes out any challenge with managing to not get hit. So, the player still has to minimise damage taken, instead of taking every hit. This allows players to exercise their skills with staying alive. 

 

Invisibility abilities changed to break invisibility on taking damage:

• Ash’s Smoke Screen 
• Ivara’s Cloak arrow and Prowl 
• Loki’s Invisibility 
• Octavia’s Metronome’s Nocturne 
• Wisp’s passive 
• Wukong’s Cloud Walker 

Why? 

Being invisible takes out any a chance to get hit. So, the player still has to look out for hazards to not break invisibility, instead of not paying attention. This allows players to exercise their skills with map and enemy awareness. 

 

Most nuke / AOE damage abilities changed to line of sight: 

• Banshee’s Sound Quake 
• Equinox’s Maim 
• Gara’s Mass Vitrify’s explosion 
• Garuda’s Dread Mirror 
• Gauss’ Thermal Sunder 
• Grendel’s Regurgitate and Pulverize 
• Hildryn’s Balefire 
• Ivara’s Concentrated Arrow 
• Khora’s Whipclaw 
• Lavos’ Catalyze 
• Mag’s Crush 
• Mirage’s Explosive Legerdemain (LOS from Sleight Of Hand) 
• Oberon’s Reckoning 
• Protea’s Grenade Fan’s Shrapnel Vortex 
• Rhino’s Rhino Stomp 
• Saryn’s Miasma 
• Vauban’s Photon Strike 
• Volt’s Discharge 
• Vephyr’s Airburst 

Exceptions: 

• Limbo’s Cataclysm 
• Mag’s Polarize 
• Nezha’s Divine Spears 
• Nova’s Antimatter Drop 

Why? 

Killing unspotted enemies takes out any challenge of them potentially fighting back. So, the player still has to position their frame to get the most out of their ability, instead of carelessly using it anywhere. This allows players to exercise their skills with movement and timing. 

 

Other ability changes I’d like: 

Overguard is now immune to ability damage 

Magnus Elevate 

• Changed effect to 40 health/s for 30 seconds 

Zenurik’s Wellspring 

• Changed energy regen to 40% ability efficiency 

Ember’s Inferno 

• Changed comets to now summon over 5 seconds (no recast during the 5 seconds) 

E.G. Casting Inferno onto 10 enemies will make the 10 comets periodically summon over 5 seconds, instead of all at once 

Mesa’s Peacemaker 

• Reduced fire-rate, fire-rate increases over time 
• Reduced energy drain to 10/s 

Or 

• Removed camera movement 
• Reduced energy drain to 10/s 

Or 

• Added 10 second cooldown after use 

Saryn’s Spores 

• Removed reduced recast cost 
• Changed elemental damage to viral 
• Removed damage 
• Changed all enemies to spread spores on death 

Or 

• Removed reduced recast cost 
• Added a 10s duration time to each spore 

Saryn’s Miasma 

• Increase energy cost to 100 
• Changed elemental damage to corrosive (if her spores change to viral) 

Wukong’s Celestial Twin

• Reduced health, shield and armour stats to half when active 

Or 

• Add energy drain 10/s 

Or 

• *cries in Effigy* 

 

Note about me:  

Since I do not consume any Warframe socials (forums, YouTube, Reddit etc.), I might be unfamiliar with the current metas or any builds that are more powerful. I started enjoying the game alot more when I stopped looking at that stuff years ago. I’m posting to the forums right now because I feel this is the best place to get my ideas heard! Clem 

Personally, I'm of a firm belief that abilities are generally underpowered. Most abilities should be buffed or should scale better. Most abilities that do only damage are useless in high-level content, forcing the game to be mostly about gun/swordplay. I agree that the buff to revenant's mesmer skin was unneeded. If anything it should be that when it ends, there's invulnerability period. Not a complete nullification of the best ability in the game's only weakness. That makes no sense to me. Surely if you are an advocate of skill you would see that utilizing all 4 abilities and guns and movement and awareness raises the skill cap. I agree that some abilities are much better than other abilities, ie Saryn's synergy is the best in the game - which makes some other frames less interesting/balanced. Harrow's 4 is not, however. I'm sure you know that after the invulnerability period you can't recast it. So I fail to see how you can rationalize placing Harrow on your list. Hysteria's invulnerability also comes with a drawback. It's a burst instrument. In steel path you have to carefully maintain energy for survival. I don't think it belongs to your list. Inaros devour and Hydroid's undertow almost makes this feel like a troll post, to me. There are much easier ways to full heal inaros that doesn't make you sit and do nothing for a minute and undertow is basically stasis with no gain at all while you roll your thumbs. Healing warframes comes from magus repair and the other two operator arcanes, never from Inaros' worst ability. xD 

Additionally, Saryn is op but the sheer synergy of her skills make her one of the best warframe designs in the game. If anything, DE needs to rebalance the elements, make the other elements on par with viral and lower the damage buff to it.

Many of the changes you are suggesting. Like making abilities 'line of sight' will make no impact on their usage while others will be rendered a shadow of what they are. I strongly disagree with this post. I'm of the mind that, if anything, abilities need small adjustments to fit into the meta. Inaros' whole kit should be revamped akin to how other frames have been improved, for example. I think that Nidus and Inaros would be served well if their overall tankiness was lowered and replaced by shield capabilities since high level content makes these two the least tankiest frames in the game and actually makes grendel the tankiest frame, if you discount invulnerability type frames like revenant who is the real winner on the list. 

TLDR: Not a fan of your suggestions but think that some balance TWEAKS would do the game good.

[iHaku]

39 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

Surely if you are an advocate of skill you would see that utilizing all 4 abilities and guns and movement and awareness raises the skill cap.

issue is that you just can not have 200+helminth abilities be amazing. at that point, you just have to have some abilities that blow, unless you give them so much stats baseline that they completly overshadow everything else. warframes having only 2 abilities, or abilities having, you know, proper cooldowns, and energy cost that mak e more sense etc.

i think one of the main issues with abilities is that roar and eclipse just *exist*, which makes weapons scale with abilities, when without, they'd be seperated (besides grouping+aoe/PT tactics)

but at that point its a different game. being able to generate essentially infinite energy, buff weapons to do seval dozen times their regular damage, become literally invincible etc, are pretty much just how the game will always be, no matter what, i think.

[Colyeses]

On 2022-09-14 at 6:17 AM, Gorlust said:

There is no goal for frames to be picked more.

Whether you have that goal or not does not matter. Your changes will still negatively impact the game, even if -you- don't care.

On 2022-09-14 at 6:17 AM, Gorlust said:

Still does not explain why invincibility should be the solution, instead of damage reduction.

Invincibility is invincibility. Damage reduction scales off of health, armour and shields, thereby being worse on frames with low survivability statlines, thus going back to 'squishy frames bad'.

Also, what are you going to balance the DR for? If it works adequately on leve 160+, it'll be functionally indistinct from invincibility in 100+. Vice versa, and the ability is useless at 160+.

On 2022-09-14 at 6:17 AM, Gorlust said:

I never claimed that energy management is not skillful

Then your proposed changes are also missing their mark.

On 2022-09-14 at 6:17 AM, Gorlust said:

The tools are still there

They're not. That's the point.

 

On 2022-09-14 at 6:17 AM, Gorlust said:

You restarted your point instead of explaining it.

I've explained it several times. I don't know how you want me to explain it more than I already have.

[CopperBezel]

I find the argument over invincibility = bad to be a really weird one. True invincibility in Warframe is deliberately made impossible to maintain constantly because it comes from abilities that tend to prevent energy regeneration, or it's a short phase of an ability like Blood Altar, Mass Vitrify, Warding Halo, etc. where it's a window to prevent your being cheesed. Something like Iron Skin is invulnerability for the frame within its duration, but has a health bar of its own, which aligns it a lot more with something like damage reduction that requires upkeep. You still have and lose hit points, at a rate determined by enemy DPS.

Gorlust's list of bad invincibility includes all forms of invincibility without distinguishing their purpose or needed conditions, which entails a lot of those abilities with a brief window of invulnerability, including abilities that specifically gain from taking damage during that interval, like Defy. Even if the ability is something you can spam and maintain indefinitely, trying to use these abilities just to maintain invulnerability would require that you are doing nothing else while you do so. I cannot stress enough that half of these abilities have invulnerability that is difficult or impossible to maintain constantly, and they all require your full attention. There are a lot of ways to lose a mission in seconds in Warframe, and nonsensically spamming the first phase of Mass Vitrify or sitting around in a puddle will help you to lose, in every one of those situations. Meanwhile, in a typical mission, we have six revives, so death is almost always a much slower and less immediate fail condition. 

The gameplay "benefit" of having damage reduction instead of invulnerability in an ability like Defy or Mass Vitrify would be that if you were fighting enemies with damage output well outside your weight class, these abilities that leave you exposed to enemy fire by design would be unusable, and they'd be slightly more annoying to use under normal circumstances. And ... that's it, that's the only difference. So they just have 100% DR in that period instead, so that that aspect of the ability will always scale with the content no matter what, and because there's no way to meaningfully abuse that difference.

The best always-on durability powers are things like Warding Halo. It has an incidental invulnerability phase both to collect damage and to prevent being cheesed, but the thing keeping you alive is a DR ability with status immunity. Gorlust seems to be entirely approving of this ability. Improbably, it isn't on their list of "bad" invincibility but Defy, which is in every aspect a weaker rendition of Warding Halo, is. 

I can't decide whether Gorlust is imagining the situation where a player sees an incoming threat and hits Defy to absorb it, then gets on with the mission - an active and situationally aware response to game conditions - or is just ideologically opposed to the concept of invulnerability. But if you see a big threat coming and you hit a button to prevent it, and as a result you fully exempt yourself from the consequences, that is literally dodging by other means. So I'm leaning pretty hard toward the ideology interpretation.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-14 at 4:41 PM, (PSN)Nagato_09716 said:

Than it couldnt be a power fantasy 

I don't understand what this is trying to say.

There's nothing I can say more, than just repeating what this is replying to.

On 2022-09-14 at 2:20 PM, Gorlust said:

You still have that power, I'm not taking it away. You can still take heaps of damage, go invisible and AoE rooms of enemies. You just have to be more skillful in earning that power, since I think it takes no skill right now.

If the goal of the game was to be a power fantasy, would you like the game more if you were invincible, invisible and nuking all the time? Does it not feel better to earn the power, than to have it all the time without effort?

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-14 at 5:45 PM, CopperBezel said:

you need the sense that the enemy you're demolishing is in some sense a credible threat

That's a good way of putting it!

On 2022-09-14 at 5:45 PM, CopperBezel said:

Gorlust, my understanding of your position on what is and isn't skill based is baffled by the fact that you approve of Nezha's Warding Halo, which is probably the simplest and least upkeep-intensive don't-die button to manage in the game at present.

If Warding Halo is easy to keep up, I'm fine with it as it's not invincibility and still requires players to avoid damage. Even if this damage is very little, players who choose to still skillfully avoid damage will have better results than players who don't, as apposed to invincibility, where there is no need to avoid damage and the results are the same.

On 2022-09-14 at 5:45 PM, CopperBezel said:

Doubly so when you started with Undertow and Hysteria as options for survival when they are abilities that actively slow your progress in completing mission objectives and contribute to you surviving comfortably to see the Mission Failed screen.

People would still be able to use Undertow and Hysteria for survival, you just can't rely on the invincibility and still use your skills in avoiding damage.

My changes have no goal in helping players complete missions faster or to comfortably not see the Mission Failed screen.

On 2022-09-14 at 5:45 PM, CopperBezel said:

The game was much better at killing you more often before Revised with the shield gating and other survivability changes that made a bunch of squishy casters viable again for the first time in years, which also had the clear benefit of bringing some variety to the gameplay and allowing people to play and build for frames other than the five that could previously hack it. 

Although I think this is a bit exaggerated, I do agree. I think shield gating was a great addition.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-14 at 9:02 PM, (PSN)blakfayt said:

Anecdotally, the only reason I even bother playing WF right now is FOR the power creep

Even coming from the stance of liking power-creep, do you not see that invincibility, invisibility and non-LoS AoE is still a problem?

• It doesn't matter how much you upgrade your defenses, you can just substitute it with invincibility.
• It doesn't matter how much you upgrade your cc or enemy management, you can just substitute it with being un-targetable.
• It doesn't matter how much you upgrade your item's killing power, you can just kill enemies before needing to use it.

These abilities give you power by taking out any skill needed for staying alive, enemy awareness or moving and positioning.

Nothing in my changes is stopping you from constantly getting more powerful either.

On 2022-09-14 at 9:02 PM, (PSN)blakfayt said:

Everyone who argues for changes like you are just don't seem to get that this ain't fun for anyone but you.

There's a problem with you or the game if you can't have fun unless you are invincible, invisible or nuking. I don't think the solution should be to allow players to use these without effort.

On 2022-09-14 at 9:02 PM, (PSN)blakfayt said:

Start a youtube channel teaching people how to solo SP without defense mods to raise the overall skill of the player base, then try again.

I am not interested, but there is no reason to. Invincibility and invisibility could just replace the need for players to get more skillful.

On 2022-09-14 at 9:02 PM, (PSN)blakfayt said:

I would guarantee taking away most forms of defense on squishier frames, like invis

I'm not removing invisibility.

On 2022-09-14 at 9:02 PM, (PSN)blakfayt said:

Very few people are here to be skillful

Then why should we allow a way for unskilled players to complete the hardest content? Why can't certain content be aimed towards skillful players, instead of allowing a way for everyone to cheese it?

On 2022-09-14 at 9:02 PM, (PSN)blakfayt said:

especially when the game's main loop of farming stuff asks the player to go as fast as possible

This isn't relating to my changes, but I wanted to comment on this.

When playing, fun should be the focus and not completing missions really fast. I find that the reason why players quit, is because they're too burned out chasing the highest damage numbers and the fastest mission times. It shouldn't matter how long something takes, as long as that time is spend having fun. The gameplay and having fun is what people should be aiming for, not just the rewards.

[Gorlust]

On 2022-09-15 at 3:20 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Why you would want to massively buff Saryn

I asked for spores damage to be completely removed and asked for the recast to not be reduced. Do you really see this as a massive buff?