What are the maths behind helminth WEAPON invigoration damage buffs?

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

I have tried multiple buffs - x% crit chance buff, y% melee damage z% secondary damage etc - and NEVER notice any difference.

On the other hand all the WF buffs (range, energy, power strength) are obvious and effective

 

So is it (modded damage) + (buff*base damage)?  - in other words completely negligible?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

51 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

hmm seems odd - why would it be disabled in simulacrum and I wonder if (maybe just on console?) if it is accidently disabled in missions too - because I really never see any difference on any weapon invigoration bonuses in missions.  and (using the previous weapon as an example) a 3k -> 4.7k dmg differnce should be noticeable - as should many of the crit bonuses i've attempted to test in the past.

 

You would have to be more specific on which mission, which weapon, faction, modding etc.

 

[Tiltskillet]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

 

Have tested a bit more - seems if I apply invigoration, then immediately run out and do mission it doesn't apply - but it applied later - not entirely sure if it was after logging out/in, or changing to a different frame and back, or just looking at stats in arsenal.  A bit like when  I get a coupon as login reward sometimes i have to log back out and in to see it take effect iin the market.

 

When I tested the invigoration yesterday I didn't log out between activating it and using it in a mission.  However I did have a few transitions from ship to relay to sim first.  If there is a bug with damage invigorations registering in mission, maybe that's enough to work around it.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

 

Have tested a bit more - seems if I apply invigoration, then immediately run out and do mission it doesn't apply - but it applied later - not entirely sure if it was after logging out/in, or changing to a different frame and back, or just looking at stats in arsenal.  A bit like when  I get a coupon as login reward sometimes i have to log back out and in to see it take effect iin the market.

 

[(PSN)shann_cz]

18 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

...

So is it (modded damage) + (buff*base damage)?  - in other words completely negligible?

If you have +dmg mods and you use +dmg warframe skill then the difference is less noticable. Because invigoration damage goes only to base dmg.

BUT I always check Invigoration for "+crit_chance, +crit_damage". If you equip crit based weapon you will definitely notice.

(I got recently +250% crit_chance on primary and immeditelly saw high red dmg numbers!)

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Is this a "I don't feel the change much in general" sort of thing, or "I have documented and recorded the results multiple times, and the results show no change" thing? 

Like I personally took a few weeks to notice the Stacking/Decay bug that still exists with consoles. I thought some weapons felt a bit less impressive than usual, but maybe my aim was off or I was having an off day and just not as effective. I swap builds around a lot. That being said, when it was pointed out and honed on that specifically, I did notice, especially when I started to pay more attention. 

With Invigoration weapon buffs, I haven't used one in a while, but they use to definitely work. I would often make a new mode set up to take advantage, and some weapons, depending on the buffs, are going to see more noticeable results. Like if its extra crit invigoration, some hybrid weapons start getting pretty potent, especially if they used hunter munitions. Its hard not to notice the extra slashes. If its a high crit gun, well then the frequency of high tier red crits increases by a bit. If its the Phantasma then... So can depend on the buff, and the weapon and how you mod. Damage for example can be a bit deceptive. Reload speed is super noticeable on certain weapons like Trumna... 

Using the in game arsenal screen can be handy, as far as thresholds that you might value, as far as different weapons strengths/weaknesses. 

[MutoManiac]

47 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Eclipse is multiplicative with base damage mods like Invigorations, so it's one of the best ways to get more out of all those base damage multipliers.

Ah, good to know, thanks.

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

Don't know about the math, but using Eclipse with 481% damage increase and the 250% from invigoration is shredding steel path up to about level 170.

Eclipse is multiplicative with base damage mods like Invigorations, so it's one of the best ways to get more out of all those base damage multipliers.

[MutoManiac]

Wukong never came up for me for invigoration until a few days ago. 250% primary damage and 75% parkour velocity. Man am I having fun and noticed a substantial difference. Don't know about the math, but using Eclipse with 481% damage increase and the 250% from invigoration is shredding steel path up to about level 170. I don't do endurance so after about 30 mins, I stop, but could probably go for a while longer. The parkour velocity is also so much fun in a larger room. Enjoying my monkey before the nerf 🙂

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

hmm seems odd - why would it be disabled in simulacrum

I think it's to exclude buffs one can't easily get rid of and might forget about.  The same thing happens with relay damage buffs.  Probably shields too, but I don't know for sure. 

I may just be reading into it though.  I'm biased because I do a lot of sim testing and already get confused by results not matching from session to session because I forgot about one factor or another.   (Not to mention actual simulacrum bugs and oddities.)

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

if it is accidently disabled in missions too - because I really never see any difference on any weapon invigoration bonuses in missions. 

Could be a bug, although I think the simplest explanations are user-based.  If one isn't paying close attention to damage popups, not using exactly the same build against the same enemies, not accounting for other buffs, not playing solo, etc., it can be easy for even larger bonuses than these to get lost in the gigantic pit of overkill we have available.

I just ran missions with and without the secondary damage bonus invig and that was definitely working.  Same enemies, same build, solo, and looking at popups.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

13 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Invigoration weapon damage bonuses don't work in the Sim  but still show up in the arsenal screen.  I think the disabling is intentional, and the arsenal issue is the bug.

(I'd hope that other invigorations are disabled in the Sim too, but I don't  know.)

hmm seems odd - why would it be disabled in simulacrum and I wonder if (maybe just on console?) if it is accidently disabled in missions too - because I really never see any difference on any weapon invigoration bonuses in missions.  and (using the previous weapon as an example) a 3k -> 4.7k dmg differnce should be noticeable - as should many of the crit bonuses i've attempted to test in the past.

 

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

in the simulacrum the weapon does the exact same damage using a non-invigorated frame as when I use an invigorated frame.

Invigoration weapon damage bonuses don't work in the Sim  but still show up in the arsenal screen.  I think the disabling is intentional, and the arsenal issue is the bug.

(I'd hope that other invigorations are disabled in the Sim too, but I don't  know.)

[(PSN)isbergen]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

the same behavior i see when i get a weapon crit chance buff - no noticeable difference in USE.  

Because 1) diminishing returns and 2) weapons are already OP AF if you have the right mods maxed out. For CC though if you use a weapon with high base CC it's possible to to move to another crit tier with an invigoration. At the very least you will see the another tier more often.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

54 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Once the buff is active, you can see it on the arsenal modding screen....

It's up to you to actually take advantage and properly mod.

Damage has diminishing returns, so don't stack a bunch of damage with a helminth damage buff, and instead take a Serration off and use a Primed bane mod for example.

If you get a critical weapon invigoration, maybe use it with a critical chance arcane to get to 200 crit easier, and use a warframe or teammate that buffs crit chance as well. Just depends how you build your team or arsenal.

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

They work like mods.
Base damage * Buff %

I actually never noticed that the weapon damage numbers change in the arsenal (admittedly i never looked) but now that I am looking - yes i see the damage on the mod screen so for example my melee with a 250% invigoration damage buff shows:
4745.7 total damage
when I equip a frame that is NOT invigorated it shows:
3035 total damage

but when I do missions i see NO noticeable dps increase.
in the simulacrum the weapon does the exact same damage using a non-invigorated frame as when I use an invigorated frame.

the same behavior i see when i get a weapon crit chance buff - no noticeable difference in USE.  

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

So is it (modded damage) + (buff*base damage)?  - in other words completely negligible?

The weapon damage invigs are additive with base damage mods/effects. So secondary damage invig + fully stacked merciless = 610% = 7.1x.  

Even with GunCO on top I wouldn't call it negligible, but it depends on context.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

On the other hand all the WF buffs (range, energy, power strength) are obvious and effective

Because those have smaller bonuses available before invigorations and they lack multipliers on top of those bonuses.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Once the buff is active, you can see it on the arsenal modding screen....

It's up to you to actually take advantage and properly mod.

Damage has diminishing returns, so don't stack a bunch of damage with a helminth damage buff, and instead take a Serration off and use a Primed bane mod for example.

If you get a critical weapon invigoration, maybe use it with a critical chance arcane to get to 200 crit easier, and use a warframe or teammate that buffs crit chance as well. Just depends how you build your team or arsenal.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

They work like mods.
Base damage * Buff %