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Revenant's MESMER SKIN is a bit unbalanced - BALANCE SUGGESTION


AegidiusF

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INTRODUCTION

I love Revenant and I'm looking forward to getting his Prime Version, but after the Veilbreaker update, 1 second of invulnerabilty was added each time Mesmer Skin loses 1 stack. This was supposed to fix the problem created by the introduction of Overguard (not affected by the Mesmer Skin crowd control), that was making Revenant lose all his Mesmer skin stacks extremely fast when attacked by some high fire rate Eximus.


THE PROBLEM

The problem is that now Revenant is immortal with very low cost and compensations : Nyx and Valkyr and every frame that can Shield Gate well can do the same thing, but Nyx and Valkyr need much more energy and a specific build and Shileld gating need a lot of skills and it's not that easy. On the other hand, even an unmodded Revenant can be immortal at any mission, with very low investment and energy cost. Even though Revenant still can receive damage from rare sources, he is invulnerable to almost everything in the game, no matter the faction or the level.

I'm always against nerfing things and I'm convinced that "a big pillar of Warframe is let players do what they will,  but we also don’t want it to be too crazy". (Pablo on Devstream 162). Revenant's Mesmer Skin is not (in my opinion) disruptive to other players. Revenant isn't dominant at all (even though he went from 27th to 22nd on the rank of most used frames - 1.33% on 2020 and 1.46% on 2021). And it cant't create an automated gameplay (perhaps with the exception of the self-stagger immunity).

The problem is not with Revenant, but with Mesmer Skin in itself : this ability is too much OP for the energy cost.

 

POSSIBLE SOLUTION

I would suggest, to "fix" the problem in a very simple way, just to add a casting cooldown on Mesmer Skin. This cooldown would be a bit higher than the stacks created. As an exemple : if Mesmer Skin has 15 stacks, the ability will have a cooldown of 20 seconds. The use of a cooldown to balance an ability already exists for Gyre's Cathode Grace, and for Valky's Enraged augment Mod.

As Revenant can regenerate Mesmer Skin stacks with the synergy between Enthrall and Reave, this cooldown balance will work the same way as Gyre's Cathode Grace cooldown works for Gyre. And will have the advantage to make Enthrall and Reave more impactful on Revenants gameplay. This would not break down Mesmer Skin and this ability will remain as awesome as before.

 

_________________________________

After some discussions, I think TARINunit9 is suggesting something much better than my original suggestion :

Il y a 13 heures, TARINunit9 a dit :

Late to the party, but I think the invincibility should only activate if Mesmer Skin is damage by an enemy who doesn't fall asleep. Like, picture this: Kuva Lancer, falls asleep but Revenant gets no invincible period. Heavy Gunner Eximus, doesn't fall asleep and Revenant turns invincible

 

 

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17 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

INTRODUCTION

I love Revenant and I'm looking forward to getting his Prime Version, but after the Veilbreaker update, 1 second of invulnerabilty was added each time Mesmer Skin loses 1 stack. This was supposed to fix the problem created by the introduction of Overguard (not affected by the Mesmer Skin crowd control), that was making Revenant lose all his Mesmer skin stacks extremely fast when attacked by some high fire rate Eximus.


 -THE PROBLEM

The problem is that now Revenant is immortal with very low cost and compensations : Nyx and Valkyr and every frame that can Shield Gate well can do the same thing, but Nyx and Valkyr need much more energy and a specific build and Shileld gating need a lot of skills it's not that easy. On the other hand, even an unmodded Revenant can be immortal at any mission, with very low investment and energy cost.

I'm always against nerfing things and I'm convinced that "a big pillar of Warframe is let players do what they will,  but we also don’t want it to be too crazy". (Pablo on Devstream 162). Revenant's Mesmer Skin is not (in my opinion) disruptive to other players. Revenant isn't dominant at all (even though he went from 27th to 22nd on the rank of most used frames - 1.33% on 2020 and 1.46% on 2021). And it cant't create an automated gameplay (perhaps with the exception of the self-stagger immunity).

The problem is not with Revenant, but with Mesmer Skin on itself : this ability is too much OP for the energy cost.

 

POSSIBLE SOLUTION

I would suggest, to "fix" the problem in a very simple way, just to add a casting cooldown on Mesmer Skin. This cooldown would be a bit higher than the stacks created. As an exemple : it Mesmer Skin has 15 stacks, the ability will have a cooldown of 20 seconds. The use of a cooldown to balance an ability already exists for Gyre's Cathode Grace, and for Valky's Enraged augment Mod.

As Revenant can regenerate Mesmer Skin stacks with the synergy between Enthrall and Reave, this cooldown balance will work the same way as Gyre's Cathode Grace cooldown works for Gyre. And will have the advantage to make Enthrall and Reave more impactful on Revenants gameplay. This would not break down Mesmer Skin and this ability will remain as awesome as before.

Would be a bad idea for one of the mates.

1. Some players don't use the Enthrall and Reave system to its fullest, I know my mate just recast the 2 skill when needed and just uses the 4th, so a cooldown would be a very bad option for him playing that warframe.

2. You're trying to get an idea for DE to force players to play Revenant in a certain way by using all the skills, some players just want to play their way.

I like Revenant too but a cool down would be a hindrance in some situations seeing Mesmer skin is the only way that warframe stays alive, I love reaving around the place it's also very good for travel speed.

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Before people start telling you how bad an idea about cooldowns is (too late), I'd like to expand on it a bit.

1. Most (if not all) abilities should be on cooldown. Many of them could be buffed to somewhat compensate restricted usage.

2. Killing enemies with weapons should reduce cooldown timers.

General gameplay would benefit from this: more action, more tactical thinking, less spamming.

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il y a 2 minutes, Xaero a dit :

Before people start telling you how bad an idea about cooldowns is (too late),

🤣😂🤣 The forum is an amazing place.

il y a 3 minutes, Xaero a dit :

1. Most (if not all) abilities should be on cooldown. Many of them could be buffed to somewhat compensate restricted usage.

2. Killing enemies with weapons should reduce cooldown timers.

General gameplay would benefit from this: more action, more tactical thinking, less spamming.

Yes, I agree. When I saw, just before Gyre was released, that Cathode Grace would have a cooldow, I was very surprised and I confess that I didn't like the idea. But after playing Gyre for a while (and with the previous experience of Valkyr's Enraged - and also the cooldown reduction mechanics of Lavos), I changed my mind and now I think it's a good idea to balance some very strong abilities and make it be used less brainlessy.

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3 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Before people start telling you how bad an idea about cooldowns is, I'd like to expand on it a bit.

1. Most (if not all) abilities should be on cooldown. Many of them could be buffed to somewhat compensate restricted usage.

2. Killing enemies with weapons reduces cooldown timers.

General gameplay would benefit from this: more action, more tactical thinking, less spamming.

Hmm could be interesting but then we have Larvos some players hate to play him for the cooldowns, I myself don't play him much because I'm not great with him I have to remember how to play him. 🙄

I shoot the hell out of everything now, thank you. :tongue: Oh except when I'm using Atlas. 

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13 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

The problem is that now Revenant is immortal with very low cost and compensations

That isnt a "now" problem, nor a problem for that matter. You clearly havent played Revenant much during his early days up until Steel Path was introduced since right now he practically works exactly like he did prior to the introduction of SP. What this recent change did is simply allow him to scale in the higher more dense content and deal with CC immune mods. Eximus werent the root of that issue though, he faced those CC immune issues already in Fortuna, it just took DE several years to fix it since Fortuna and other CC immune mobs werent as common as Eximus (that are everywhere). 

And your suggestion regarding a cooldown also makes it seem like you havent played Rev much overall. If you had 15 charges and a 20 sec CD it would practically result in no CD whatsoever, it would be a pointless addition. In old content, prior to SP, Rev could go full survival rotations without ever recasting Mesmer Skin, that's 5 minutes i.e 4 minutes and 40 seconds beyond your CD. In newer high density content the game already balances it, since those 15 stacks wont last even nearly as long as a full rotation in a survival. They will however last well beyond the 20sec CD you want to add, which would result in nothing.

 

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1 minute ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

🤣😂🤣 The forum is an amazing place.

Yes, I agree. When I saw, just before Gyre was released, that Cathode Grace would have a cooldow, I was very surprised and I confess that I didn't like the idea. But after playing Gyre for a while (and with the previous experience of Valkyr's Enraged - and also the cooldown reduction mechanics of Lavos), I changed my mind and now I think it's a good idea to balance some very strong abilities and make it be used less brainlessy.

Cathode Grace skill can be kept up the whole time as long as you're getting kills, unless you want it changed to a set duration then a cooldown.

p.s sorry about the 'bad idea' sentence reworded it, my mind was thinking about the main part of post.

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il y a 9 minutes, Slayer-. a dit :

1. Some players don't use the Enthrall and Reave system to it's fullest, I know my mate just recast the 2 skill when needed and just uses the 4th, so a cooldown would be a very bad option for him playing that warframe.

Yes, I know, and this is a problem : if players are using just half of the abilities in a set of four, there is a problem with those 2 abilities that are not being used. Your mate would just have to adapt and use a more tactical gameplay, just as he would have to do with Gyre or Lavos.

il y a 10 minutes, Slayer-. a dit :

2. You're trying to get an idea for DE to force players to play Revenant in a certain way by using all the skills, some players just want to play their way.

I'm just suggesting a slight balance before the heavy hammer of nerf smashes down the Mesmer Skin ability for being too much powerful.

This wont force any gameplay, people using Mesmer Skin (me includes) will be able to continue using it just as before, but they will have to pay attention to the stacks instead of just recasting brainlessy the ability.

il y a 13 minutes, Slayer-. a dit :

I like Revenant too but a cool down would be a hindrance in some situations seeing Mesmer skin is the only way that warframe stays alive, I love reaving around the place it's also very good for travel speed.

Mesmer Skin gives high survivability, but it's not the only way for Revenant stay alive. And it will still be possible to use it in the same way : it's just the energy cost + ability synergy that will balance the OP of Mesmer Skin.

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il y a 5 minutes, Slayer-. a dit :

Hmm could be interesting but then we have Larvos some players hate to play him for the cooldowns, I myself don't play him much because I'm not great with him I have to remember how to play him. 🙄

Oh ! Poor Lavos buddy 🤣 Our Orochimaru Warframe needs some love

il y a 6 minutes, Slayer-. a dit :

Oh except when I'm using Atlas. 

Atlas can surely shoot the hell out of everything. By the way, this is something I always ask myself : why is Atlas not so much used, when he is capable of making much more damage than Saryn ? Never could find an answer.

Anyway, thanks for your answers.

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3 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm just suggesting a slight balance before the heavy hammer of nerf smashes down the Mesmer Skin ability for being too much powerful.

But that is the thing, it has always been this powerful. Ever since Rev was initially released. Which is why they "buffed" it, so it could work as it was intended in all types of content.

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4 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Oh ! Poor Lavos buddy 🤣 Our Orochimaru Warframe needs some love

Atlas can surely shoot the hell out of everything. By the way, this is something I always ask myself : why is Atlas not so much used, when he is capable of making much more damage than Saryn ? Never could find an answer.

Anyway, thanks for your answers.

TBH, I play a lot of the other warframes and never really got or put the time into him (Larvos) to try and learn him, maybe one day. 

Come on now why bring a fist pounding warframe to a gunfight, that's the whole point of Atlas to pound things to dust. :laugh: 

👍

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il y a 9 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

That isnt a "now" problem, nor a problem for that matter. You clearly havent played Revenant much during his early days up until Steel Path was introduced since right now he practically works exactly like he did prior to the introduction of SP.

I almost agree with you, but the fact is that this ability do not work the same way as before : we could lose stacks very fast, as the 1 second invulnerability didn't exist. If a high fire rate mod was shooting at you, he would stop as the ability would pout it to sleep, but you would continue to lose your stacks due to other mobs attacks. You had to recast Mesmer Skin many times before to stay alive (or use the synergy between Enthrall and Reave). But With the 1 second invulnerability makes that 15 stacks is equal to 15 seconds invulnerability : much more than Rolling Guard (which has a cooldown - too long in my opinion).

Mesmer Skin has always been Revenant's base ability for survivability, but now it's just too OP.

 

il y a 15 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

And your suggestion regarding a cooldown also makes it seem like you havent played Rev much overall. If you had 15 charges and a 20 sec CD it would practically result in no CD whatsoever, it would be a pointless addition. In old content, prior to SP, Rev could go full survival rotations without ever recasting Mesmer Skin, that's 5 minutes i.e 4 minutes and 40 seconds beyond your CD. In newer high density content the game already balances it, since those 15 stacks wont last even nearly as long as a full rotation in a survival. They will however last well beyond the 20sec CD you want to add, which would result in nothing.

Yes, I am playing Revenant a lot. This last weeks, as an exemple of the OP mechanics, I did Boreal and Amar fights with Revenant (ignoring everything surrounding).

The cooldown is to make balance between the energy cost and the invulnerability. I don't have any problem with invulnerabilty. Valkyr can be invulnerable for the entire mission (even long survival runs), but this has a cost. 5 seconds is just a suggestion, because, in my opinion, within five seconds you can easily die in high level missions (specially if there are a bunch of Nullifiers around). Also, I suggested a little cooldown because in some missions you are under fire almost all the time. My goal was just to balance the invulnerability with energy cost and more tactical gameplay. I don't really want Mesmer Skin to lose all its fun factor.

 

 

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I pretty much agree, Revenant is rapidly ascending from niche meme into mainstream never-die ultimate frame you should use in all circumstances no matter what just take Revenant. He might be the replacement Wukong 🤪. Everyone will use him because he takes zero damage. Isn't that the OP dream? Take zero damage? Of course, this ventures into a discussion on shield gating abuse in general, I suppose.

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17 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm just suggesting a slight balance before the heavy hammer of nerf smashes down the Mesmer Skin ability for being too much powerful.

Given the reason why Wukong was nerfed (extremely high popularity due to ability to cheese the game with one button), I strongly doubt Revenant is in any real danger of being nerfed for Mesmer Skin. Unlike nuke-bot Wuclone, you have to actively make sure you don't let your charges melt away as well as participate actively in whatever content you're engaging with.

If anything, DE is more likely to nerf Revenant's Danse Macabre, because people gravitate towards activating it and forgetting the rest of the game exists.

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il y a 14 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

But that is the thing, it has always been this powerful. Ever since Rev was initially released. Which is why they "buffed" it, so it could work as it was intended in all types of content.

Revenant was never as OP as he is now. Before you could lose a whole bunch of stack depending on the number of enemies around : stacks were consummed by attack reflected, now stacks are consummed by attack reflected by second. It's very different. Before, if you had a great number of enemies around, you could lose all your stacks in a fow seconds (just the way it used to happen with one single Eximus, before the Veilbreaker changes). Now, the number of stacks are equal to the minimum number of seconds of invulnerability.

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il y a 6 minutes, CrownOfShadows a dit :

I pretty much agree, Revenant is rapidly ascending from niche meme into mainstream never-die ultimate frame you should use in all circumstances no matter what just take Revenant. He might be the replacement Wukong 🤪. Everyone will use him because he takes zero damage. Isn't that the OP dream? Take zero damage? Of course, this ventures into a discussion on shield gating abuse in general, I suppose.

To be honest, that's what I fear. Between 2020 and 2021, with no real changes, Revenant got an increased use of 10% (from 1.33% to 1.46%). Even though he is in the middle warframe stats, with the changes made to wukong, Revenant will berhaps take its place. And Revenant Prime will be released this year.

I don't want to see Revenant be smashed by the heavy nerf hammer just because Mesmer Skin is too OP.

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3 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Revenant was never as OP as he is now. Before you could lose a whole bunch of stack depending on the number of enemies around : stacks were consummed by attack reflected, now stacks are consummed by attack reflected by second. It's very different. Before, if you had a great number of enemies around, you could lose all your stacks in a fow seconds (just the way it used to happen with one single Eximus, before the Veilbreaker changes). Now, the number of stacks are equal to the minimum number of seconds of invulnerability.

I don't know how you play, but in all the time I've been running Revenant since he was released, he's been an unkillable god in virtually every scenario, even when fighting enemies immune to Mesmer Skin's sleep feature (new eximus, plains Bolkors, Arbitration invulnerable enemies, acolytes). If DE thought his Mesmer Skin needed nerfing, they would've done so long before they buffed it. I'd argue that shield gating was the first buff to Revenant because that one second of invulnerability after shields go down is plenty enough to recast Mesmer Skin and go back to killing.

All this buff did was make it so you spent less time babysitting the 2 button.

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il y a 13 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Given the reason why Wukong was nerfed (extremely high popularity due to ability to cheese the game with one button), I strongly doubt Revenant is in any real danger of being nerfed for Mesmer Skin.

Nyx was even less used than Revenant, and she got nerfed last year (september 2021, announced on Devstream 157, if I remember well) due to an exploit. Overall use is not the only reason to nerf a frame or its abilities.

Another exemple, CC frames were less used than DPS frames, and Overguard was a nerf to CC frames and not a nerf to DPS frames. The official reason is that CC was too OP and was ignoring the threat level of Eximus.

  

il y a 13 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

If anything, DE is more likely to nerf Revenant's Danse Macabre, because people gravitate towards activating it and forgetting the rest of the game exists.


This is true. Revenant's Danse MAcabre was use the same way AoE were used and it can be as disruptive as AoE. I think the only thing it lacks on the "Nerf questions" is the dominance.

 

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

To be honest, that's what I fear. Between 2020 and 2021, with no real changes, Revenant got an increased use of 10% (from 1.33% to 1.46%). Even though he is in the middle warframe stats, with the changes made to wukong, Revenant will berhaps take its place. And Revenant Prime will be released this year.

I don't want to see Revenant be smashed by the heavy nerf hammer just because Mesmer Skin is too OP.

Unlikely. People have always gravitated towards cheese. I can assure you that people didn't main Wukong, because of his Defy. Being a tank doesn't help you complete missions faster, nuking 3 rooms with one button does, which is why Saryn and Mesa are far more likely to be the main picks.

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Nyx was even less used than Revenant, and she got nerfed last year (september 2021, announced on Devstream 157, if I remember well) due to an exploit.

Yes. An exploit. Something Mesmer Skin isn't. In that scenario, Mesmer Skin would be nerfed if players somehow figure out a way to make sleep-immune enemies vulnerable to that effect, gain infinite charges, or something along those lines.

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il y a 5 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

I don't know how you play, but in all the time I've been running Revenant since he was released, he's been an unkillable god in virtually every scenario, even when fighting enemies immune to Mesmer Skin's sleep feature (new eximus, plains Bolkors, Arbitration invulnerable enemies, acolytes).

I played it just the same was as everybody else. Mesmer skin was never OP. People running Revenant were forced to constantly recast Mesmer Skin. People used to complain that the casting time was a problem, mostly because the previous stacks were removed on cast and you were vulnerable (you had to be fast to cast on the shield gating window). This problem was solved and it's nice. But now, the energy cost balance is lost. Revenant Mesmer Skin is much more powerful than before, it's much more powerful than shield gating with decaying dragon key equipped.

My problem is not that this ability turns Revenant into a inkillable frame, I agree, he already was, just as Nyx, Valkyr and any frame that can easily shield gate (I've said this at the first post). My problem is the cost of this immortality/invulnerability.

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il y a 9 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Unlikely. People have always gravitated towards cheese. I can assure you that people didn't main Wukong, because of his Defy. Being a tank doesn't help you complete missions faster, nuking 3 rooms with one button does, which is why Saryn and Mesa are far more likely to be the main picks.

Totally agree with you.

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il y a 2 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Yes. An exploit. Something Mesmer Skin isn't. In that scenario, Mesmer Skin would be nerfed if players somehow figure out a way to make sleep-immune enemies vulnerable to that effect, gain infinite charges, or something along those lines.

Yes, I Agree. I was just giving an exemple that shows that there are other reason than overall use that can make a warframe be nerfed.

Things changed a lot on Warframe, but in the past even Trinity, that has never been a very popular frame, got nerfed.

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8 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I played it just the same was as everybody else. Mesmer skin was never OP. People running Revenant were forced to constantly recast Mesmer Skin. People used to complain that the casting time was a problem, mostly because the previous stacks were removed on cast and you were vulnerable (you had to be fast to cast on the shield gating window). This problem was solved and it's nice. But now, the energy cost balance is lost. Revenant Mesmer Skin is much more powerful than before, it's much more powerful than shield gating with decaying dragon key equipped.

My problem is not that this ability turns Revenant into a inkillable frame, I agree, he already was, just as Nyx, Valkyr and any frame that can easily shield gate (I've said this at the first post). My problem is the cost of this immortality/invulnerability.

If cost is a concern, that hasn't been a relevant point since even before Revenant existed. Even before the buff, I've never had to be concerned about energy costs to maintain Mesmer Skin with the rare exception of an energy leech eximus sneaking into a room and eating it all away (another buff after DE changed them, now that I think about it). Ignoring pizzas, we now have Helminth (Protea's Dispensary) and Zenurik which both provide more energy than Revenant actually needs.

If anything, the Mesmer Skin buff means players who don't use Zenurik, Helminth, or pizzas will hurt less when playing with Revenant.

Casting time for Revenant is still a problem. Having to dedicate an entire mod slot just to reduce it says as much.

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