AABC AABC -> ABCCCCC.. everywhere, please

[Harutomata]

I don't have that much of an issue with either AABC or ABCCCCCC rotations.
The real horrid thing is Deimos Excavation having AAAAAABBBCCC rotation so you have to spend 40-45 minutes just to get a reward from the C reward pool (and there's no bonus roll from bonus objective for some reason).

[BR31]

I'd love to see AABCCCCC or AABCBCBCBC

[iHaku]

On 2022-11-26 at 2:06 PM, Scar.brother.help.me said:

(But AABCCCCC is fine too)

just do AABBCCCC..., we already have that in arbitration.

i cant even think of any missions in the game in which you would even *want* rotation A rewards, outside of disruption. A rotation is literally being used as a punishment for doing poorly in rescue lol

[Scar.brother.help.me]

4 hours ago, iHaku said:

just do AABBCCCC..., we already have that in arbitration.

i cant even think of any missions in the game in which you would even *want* rotation A rewards, outside of disruption. A rotation is literally being used as a punishment for doing poorly in rescue lol

A and B rotations feel like punishment for playing an Endless mission for more than 20 minutes :)

[Drasiel]

On 2022-11-30 at 11:12 PM, iHaku said:

just do AABBCCCC..., we already have that in arbitration.

i cant even think of any missions in the game in which you would even *want* rotation A rewards, outside of disruption. A rotation is literally being used as a punishment for doing poorly in rescue lol

if you want to use an endless mission to farm lith relics for new prime access you need rotation A. Last PA it took me 47 rotation A's just to get the last relic I needed.

[iHaku]

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

if you want to use an endless mission to farm lith relics for new prime access you need rotation A.

please tell me you're trolling my dude. nobody farms endless missions for lith who values their own time even in the slightest, it's literally a waste of your time. just do void capture and get 1 lith in less than 2 minutes every time including loading times (unless you're on a terrible system, but even then, ingame time never exceeds 1 minute)

[Drasiel]

Just now, iHaku said:

please tell me you're trolling my dude. nobody farms endless missions for lith who values their own time even in the slightest, it's literally a waste of your time. just do void capture and get 1 lith in less than 2 minutes every time including loading times (unless you're on a terrible system, but even then, ingame time never exceeds 1 minute)

I'm not and you don't need to insult the way I play my friend. I was combining lith farming with something else I needed from interception. I don't care how efficient void captures are, they aren't fun for me and I burn out super fast on them. There are other reasons than just efficiency to pick mission types.

[iHaku]

41 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I was combining lith farming with something else I needed from interception.

so then you're not just going there for lith relics, as you've admitted yourself. for just lith farming its awefull value for time. in endless missions (regular 5min~ endless that is, not disruption), C rotations should easily just give 2 relics per rotation to even begin competing with alternatives. same goes for axi relics. why farm "highlevel" interception while lua exists? its stricly worse. just make it endless C or put 2 relics per C rotation in there.

If you would want to go to somewhere specifically for a rotation rewards (outside of bounties in which rotations are equal) then there's clearly something wrong with the reward tabel.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

I knew there would be fellas who would actually defend rotation A after minute/wave 20 no matter how pointless it is (or maybe outdated, perfaps there was a reason for it before I started Warframe, but i see no reason for it now).
It looks like this:
- DE creates endless missions
- Punishes players who want to farm 20+ minutes (at least to have less waiting and loading screens)

[Tiltskillet]

Maybe AABC first rotation to ABCC thereafter.  That way those people who are only looking for stuff from A or B don't just automatically pack up and leave a few minutes in.

Anyway, I really don't imagine DE doing ABCCCCC... without also watering down C rewards.

[Drasiel]

23 hours ago, iHaku said:

so then you're not just going there for lith relics, as you've admitted yourself. for just lith farming its awefull value for time. in endless missions (regular 5min~ endless that is, not disruption), C rotations should easily just give 2 relics per rotation to even begin competing with alternatives. same goes for axi relics. why farm "highlevel" interception while lua exists? its stricly worse. just make it endless C or put 2 relics per C rotation in there.

If you would want to go to somewhere specifically for a rotation rewards (outside of bounties in which rotations are equal) then there's clearly something wrong with the reward tabel.

You never said I had to be only farming lith, It's pretty standard procedure to bunch up overlapping farms. Why play different missions for 3 hours each resulting in 6 hours of effort when there's a mission that lets you do both things in 4 hours? There are lots of reasons not to play disruption over other endless that nothing to do with reward structure although for me not having A rotations after 4 rounds is a big reason. Other reasons people might avoid disruption

• They don't like the game mode
• They are hearing impaired (the visual sign for demolishers doesn't work, there are too many effects, it's too subtle, and most people that can't hear the beeping don't even know there is a visual sign because it's so hard to see)
• they are solo which makes it slower than other endless
• they only have time for 4 rounds so the reward change doesn't affect them

I doubt DE would double up relic rewards but I wouldn't have an issue with Tiltskillet's suggestion:

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Maybe AABC first rotation to ABCC thereafter.  That way those people who are only looking for stuff from A or B don't just automatically pack up and leave a few minutes in.

Anyway, I really don't imagine DE doing ABCCCCC... without also watering down C rewards.

 

[Scar.brother.help.me]

21 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I doubt DE would double up relic rewards but I wouldn't have an issue with Tiltskillet's suggestion:

On 2022-12-04 at 11:53 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Maybe AABC first rotation to ABCC thereafter.  That way those people who are only looking for stuff from A or B don't just automatically pack up and leave a few minutes in.

Anyway, I really don't imagine DE doing ABCCCCC... without also watering down C rewards.

I have, there is no difference for me if it's AABC or ABCC, If I stay longer - I don't want neither A, nor B at all.
It works almost perfectly with Disruptions as I mentioned before - You want Lith relic - you go to Mars, but only a few rounds, if you want Meso - you stay endless, If you want Neo - you either play short Sedna/Lua or got endless Uranus, and for the Axi you can go Sedna/Lua endless. If there was a disruprion on Earth or Mercury with only Lith to go endless - that would have been  even more consistent, but even without it it works very very good: You have a choice of 3 tiers fore 3 relics endless farm to choose from, and Lith usually drops when you "warm up" on Mars.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I have, there is no difference for me if it's AABC or ABCC, If I stay longer - I don't want neither A, nor B at all.
It works almost perfectly with Disruptions as I mentioned before - You want Lith relic - you go to Mars, but only a few rounds, if you want Meso - you stay endless, If you want Neo - you either play short Sedna/Lua or got endless Uranus, and for the Axi you can go Sedna/Lua endless. If there was a disruprion on Earth or Mercury with only Lith to go endless - that would have been  even more consistent, but even without it it works very very good: You have a choice of 3 tiers fore 3 relics endless farm to choose from, and Lith usually drops when you "warm up" on Mars.

Disruption only works perfectly for you because you don't want A rotation. Saying the rotation should be removed for everyone is extremely self focused. If someone wants to farm lith relics they shouldn't be banished to the beginning of the starchart. If someone wants to run endless missions for lith relics they shouldn't have to restart the mission every 3 rounds.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

31 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Disruption only works perfectly for you because you don't want A rotation. Saying the rotation should be removed for everyone is extremely self focused. If someone wants to farm lith relics they shouldn't be banished to the beginning of the starchart. If someone wants to run endless missions for lith relics they shouldn't have to restart the mission every 3 rounds.

the opposite - absolute most farm relics in Disruptions whenever new prime is out even if they don't really like this mode but rotations are good and reliable, worth staying (it is also the fastest if you have a good team, effort pays off).
Besides you can still get Lith relics in most of the Tier 1 Void capture (and exterminate) which is the best way to farm it. Capture literally takes around 1 minute or 2 if you chill. And here you are implying that you farm it by staying 20+ minutes/waves endless missions to get 2 lith relics every 20 minutes/waves? I mean of course u do u, no problem, but there are maybe 3,5 people like you that do the same. Isn't it selfish to leave Disruptions to the vast majority of people who value their time and keep all the rest of the endless modes to yourself just because you like wasting your time?

[Drasiel]

29 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

the opposite - absolute most farm relics in Disruptions whenever new prime is out even if they don't really like this mode but rotations are good and reliable, worth staying (it is also the fastest if you have a good team, effort pays off).
Besides you can still get Lith relics in most of the Tier 1 Void capture (and exterminate) which is the best way to farm it. Capture literally takes around 1 minute or 2 if you chill. And here you are implying that you farm it by staying 20+ minutes/waves endless missions to get 2 lith relics every 20 minutes/waves? I mean of course u do u, no problem, but there are maybe 3,5 people like you that do the same. Isn't it selfish to leave Disruptions to the vast majority of people who value their time and keep all the rest of the endless modes to yourself just because you like wasting your time?

No, because that's how those endless missions were designed to work, they don't have a "do better" parameter to increase rewards earlier so they'd either have to add completely new events to the missions types redesigning their core, shoe horn in additional challenges such as "no damage to the cryopod" which are tedious enough to encounter just in nightwave, or replace the rotation with B,B,C,C.

You don't seem to be willing to accept people want both A rewards and to be able to play higher level missions to get them. I may not like disruption but when I play it, if I'm not set solo I never see an A rotation at all so the game mode is useless to me if I want those rewards.

You also don't seem to be able to understand that "most efficient" does not mean "best" Captures are the most efficient way to farm lith relics, they are not the most fun, they are not the most enjoyable, they are nearly impossible to stack multiple farming goals with, and they are so goddamn boring after 4 runs I'd rather go clean all the trash cans in my house.

[sunderthefirmament]

I would be in favor of this change if the game were polished and stable. It’s not, though, so encouraging players to stay in missions longer is generally ill advised. Losing 20 minutes of progress due to a bug, glitch, host migration error, or soft lock is already painful enough. It sucks even more when you’ve been in a session longer. 

[iHaku]

17 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I would be in favor of this change if the game were polished and stable. It’s not, though, so encouraging players to stay in missions longer is generally ill advised. Losing 20 minutes of progress due to a bug, glitch, host migration error, or soft lock is already painful enough. It sucks even more when you’ve been in a session longer. 

I obviously cant talk for people on consoles because i never played WF on there, but in over 3k hours on steam my game only crashed maybe once or twice and i probably lost rewards in open world an equal amount of times (although i probably lost them twice as often in railjack lol)

I've done 2-3 hour endurance stuff a lot of times, especially in arbitration. the game is pretty stable, probably more stable than 90%+ of AAA titles in their first year lol

On 2022-12-06 at 4:01 AM, Drasiel said:

No, because that's how those endless missions were designed to work, they don't have a "do better" parameter to increase rewards earlier so they'd either have to add completely new events to the missions types redesigning their core, shoe horn in additional challenges such as "no damage to the cryopod" which are tedious enough to encounter just in nightwave, or replace the rotation with B,B,C,C.

they do have a "do better" parameter, just not one that gives better rewards earlier: its level scaling. that's the whole point of endless. it gets more difficult to achieve the same, required performance. that's why rotations should become better if you stay past the first 4 rotations. even just omitting one of the A rotations would do endless a huge favor (i.e.: AABCABCABCABCABC)

 

On 2022-12-06 at 4:01 AM, Drasiel said:

You also don't seem to be able to understand that "most efficient" does not mean "best" Captures are the most efficient way to farm lith relics, they are not the most fun, they are not the most enjoyable, they are nearly impossible to stack multiple farming goals with, and they are so goddamn boring after 4 runs I'd rather go clean all the trash cans in my house.

that's fair, but rewards should still be comparable. i don't like capture being the strictly speaking the best reward for time, while other game modes look like a complete waste of time by comparison. everyone does things that are more fun, despite being less efficient at times, while doing the most efficient thing at other times. but that's not excuse to not want different activities in the game to be equally rewarding, especially when they have the same rewards but different time investment.

[jessica_girlsoft]

On 2022-12-04 at 8:09 PM, Drasiel said:

You never said I had to be only farming lith, It's pretty standard procedure to bunch up overlapping farms. Why play different missions for 3 hours each resulting in 6 hours of effort when there's a mission that lets you do both things in 4 hours? There are lots of reasons not to play disruption over other endless that nothing to do with reward structure although for me not having A rotations after 4 rounds is a big reason. Other reasons people might avoid disruption

• They don't like the game mode
• They are hearing impaired (the visual sign for demolishers doesn't work, there are too many effects, it's too subtle, and most people that can't hear the beeping don't even know there is a visual sign because it's so hard to see)
• they are solo which makes it slower than other endless
• they only have time for 4 rounds so the reward change doesn't affect them

I doubt DE would double up relic rewards but I wouldn't have an issue with Tiltskillet's suggestion:

 

there's a visual sign??? i always avoid disruption cause its too hard to find the demos before they are right on top of the thing i can't hear the beeping for the life of me

[Drasiel]

16 hours ago, iHaku said:

<snip>

they do have a "do better" parameter, just not one that gives better rewards earlier: its level scaling. that's the whole point of endless. it gets more difficult to achieve the same, required performance. that's why rotations should become better if you stay past the first 4 rotations. even just omitting one of the A rotations would do endless a huge favor (i.e.: AABCABCABCABCABC)

 

that's fair, but rewards should still be comparable. i don't like capture being the strictly speaking the best reward for time, while other game modes look like a complete waste of time by comparison. everyone does things that are more fun, despite being less efficient at times, while doing the most efficient thing at other times. but that's not excuse to not want different activities in the game to be equally rewarding, especially when they have the same rewards but different time investment.

I mean the level scaling isn't really a "do better" mechanic it was put in to prevent you from playing eternally, it's certainly a challenge creating mechanic but if we're comparing to disruption which has scaling difficulty and additional challenges to improve rewards it's certainly not the same. I'd be happy to cut down on A rotations on further rounds, I just don't think it should be removed entirely. ABCC ABCC would be great for A reward enthusiasts and C focused players both..

I agree and I'm not really trying to argue against making things more rewarding, I'm saying that removing A rotations (or making them removable by performance) would make it less rewarding for some players and remove the middle option for challenge between the options of say playing on mars, playing on sedna, or playing on mars on steel path. Disruption is great if you want C rewards but you normally have to play it solo if you want/need anything from A.

10 hours ago, jessica_girlsoft said:

there's a visual sign??? i always avoid disruption cause its too hard to find the demos before they are right on top of the thing i can't hear the beeping for the life of me

Yes there is and if you have 2 or more people in your group it can be next to impossible to see. When a demolyst is within 1 maybe 2 tiles of you there is a little red arrow that shows up on the side of your hud when you can't directly see the demolyst. It's tiny, too hard see, too easy to lose in any kind of graphical effect, and has much shorter range than the beeping sound.

You can trigger it's appearance in the simulacrum by facing away from a demolyst here's what the arrow looks like, it's the tiny arrow on the right hand side:

[iHaku]

45 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Yes there is and if you have 2 or more people in your group it can be next to impossible to see. When a demolyst is within 1 maybe 2 tiles of you there is a little red arrow that shows up on the side of your hud when you can't directly see the demolyst. It's tiny, too hard see, too easy to lose in any kind of graphical effect, and has much shorter range than the beeping sound.

You can trigger it's appearance in the simulacrum by facing away from a demolyst here's what the arrow looks like, it's the tiny arrow on the right hand side:

i've been farming disruption for a pretty long time, its one of my main money makers (since its highly rewarding aswell as fun). overall i probably have like 400-500 hours of disruption and i literally didnt even know that was a thing. Personally i dont see why they wouldnt just add a guiding line between the demo and the cashe, like a nezha firewalker path, if the demo is within "2 tiles" or so range.

 

@jessica_girlsoft
regarding the sound, i actually made a post recently suggesting a seperate audio slider for demolishers. they arent hard to hear if you turn down the other sounds (unless you're in that one bugged tile with the underground passage and the small bridge, that one blocks sound from traveling for some reason)

[Drasiel]

6 hours ago, iHaku said:

i've been farming disruption for a pretty long time, its one of my main money makers (since its highly rewarding aswell as fun). overall i probably have like 400-500 hours of disruption and i literally didnt even know that was a thing. Personally i dont see why they wouldnt just add a guiding line between the demo and the cashe, like a nezha firewalker path, if the demo is within "2 tiles" or so range.

 

@jessica_girlsoft
regarding the sound, i actually made a post recently suggesting a seperate audio slider for demolishers. they arent hard to hear if you turn down the other sounds (unless you're in that one bugged tile with the underground passage and the small bridge, that one blocks sound from traveling for some reason)

Yup pretty much every time I mention the visual aid no one else knows what I'm talking about, it's probably the most secret mechanic in the entire game and that's a travesty. There are a number of better options for location of demolysts from enemy spawn and pathing behaviour changing when a demolisher takes the field to something like a firewalker line as you describe. Heck even just making the arrow Really Big would be an improvement. 

edit: I forgot to mention it does flash a bit when you are in an actual mission but that tends to make it harder to see with all the other flashing stuff.

the specific pitch of the demolisher beeping sound makes is very hard for me to pick out (and I'm not even considered hard of hearing from a medical standpoint), and I know that in my situation turning down all the other sounds doesn't help because the demolisher beep is on the sound effect slider which means warframe powers, guns, and enemy noises all drown it out completely. It's worse when there are more players because of course there are more sound effects. A seperate slider that includes secret object chimes, zariman accolades, cache chimes, and demolyst beeps would be about the only auditory solution that would work.  Basically a slider for "Attention Chimes" or some other fitting name. At the same time non auditory alternatives are always better for the hard of hearing and deaf community members.

[DroopingPuppy]

On 2022-11-26 at 11:48 AM, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Since Disruptions appeared I was hoping that all rotations would be changed the same way. Why not do it now? Look how well it works with Disruptions:

you need lith and meso relics - you go to Mars
for neo and axi - Sedna/Lua
and some in between
and if you need an item from rotation C - you just stay longer and farm it, if you need A or B u leave early.

AABC AABC is an old and outdated system and has to go (maybe many years ago it was good, but for the 4+ years I play - I never understood why is it even that way), every rotation after wave 20, minute 20, etc should remain C for as long as tenno stay.

 

Just why? Do you think that we should stay for some HOURS? Please remember that we are the human race, who needs to sleep for around 8 hours, and also needs some work, study, hobby and various things to do in our lifetime.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

6 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Just why? Do you think that we should stay for some HOURS? Please remember that we are the human race, who needs to sleep for around 8 hours, and also needs some work, study, hobby and various things to do in our lifetime.

Why HOURS? If rotations are CCCCC after first few - there is no need to stay for HOURS, but at least there is a point in staying after minute/wave 20. There are some solo tryhards (in a good way) who play lvl-cap disruptions. I don't, but it seems fun for them. For me 40-60 minutes would be enough to stay past 20. With a good team can stay longer.

I have an idea why DE keeps other endless missions with crappy rotations - they are pretty AFK-ish compared to Disruptions and they want to only reward more active gameplay, where you at least can't keep up by staying in one place. Though Defections also require running and have crappy rotations (do you see a lot of people playing this game mode?),
 

[Drasiel]

24 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Why HOURS? If rotations are CCCCC after first few - there is no need to stay for HOURS, but at least there is a point in staying after minute/wave 20. There are some solo tryhards (in a good way) who play lvl-cap disruptions. I don't, but it seems fun for them. For me 40-60 minutes would be enough to stay past 20. With a good team can stay longer.

I have an idea why DE keeps other endless missions with crappy rotations - they are pretty AFK-ish compared to Disruptions and they want to only reward more active gameplay, where you at least can't keep up by staying in one place. Though Defections also require running and have crappy rotations (do you see a lot of people playing this game mode?),
 

honestly even if defection cured cancer and had a gold bar delivered to your house every 4 rounds I don't think people would enjoy it. It's an escort mission with some REALLY bad AI pathing which is almost no ones cup of tea. that's on top of nerfing the older methods of healing defection targets while newer frames have their full effects.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

30 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

honestly even if defection cured cancer and had a gold bar delivered to your house every 4 rounds I don't think people would enjoy it. It's an escort mission with some REALLY bad AI pathing which is almost no ones cup of tea. that's on top of nerfing the older methods of healing defection targets while newer frames have their full effects.

I know, but on top of that rewards are bad and rotations are just like much more chill survival/def/interception