Improving Archon Shards system with Archon Crystals

[PublikDomain]

The Archon Shard system has some outstanding issues that have become increasingly apparent as the weeks roll by. It's certainly not an exhaustive list, but:

1. The acquisition of Tau Shards is completely RNG-based. There is no way to get them aside from getting lucky, and the odds are against you. You may go months without seeing one.
   • ✅ Addressed with Citrine's Last Wish!
2. The acquisition of Tau Shards takes a very long time. Even with average luck, it will take on average 32.5-62.5 weeks to get 5 Tau Shards of the desired type for just one frame. For comparison, regular Shards take only take 2.5-7.5 weeks and offer 2/3rds the stats.
3. Not all Shard colors are equally valuable. Some players will find more use from some colors over others.
4. Shards will experience drop dilution if new Shards are added. Each new Archon and colored Shard DE might add in the future will add an extra week to the rotations.
5. Shards are incompatible with configs. While you can quickly and conveniently change your builds using configs, you cannot have different Shards for different configs.
6. Shards are destroyed when the Warframe they are installed on is destroyed. This can happen when selling a Warframe or feeding it to Helminth, and while rare there are already posts about this happening.
7. Shards are finite content. A Warframe can only hold a finite number of Shards, and there are a finite number of Warframes. You will eventually run out of places you'll want to put your Shards, and will eventually run out of places you can put your Shards.

Broadly speaking, these issues fall into one of two categories: usage and acquisition. The above issues can be addressed by focusing on those two areas.

Usage

Addressing config incompatibility, potential loss of Shards, and their finite nature is conceptually simple and can be done with one change: separate Shards from Warframes. If Shards could be equipped in a slot like Mods or Arcanes then they would work with configs, wouldn't be lost when the Warframe is destroyed, and you could have multiple per Warframe - meaning you could always find somewhere to put your Shards even if you only ever played a single Warframe.

Separating Shards from Warframes isn't a very big change. Instead of installing a Shard into a Warframe directly, Shards could instead be bundled together and then installed on a Warframe as a group. You could make as many of these bundled Shards as you wanted and could equip them on your configs however you like. These bundled Shards would still be locked to a specific Warframe type, like an Augment or Legacy Arcane Helmet, so there would be no practical difference with the current Shards unless you kept multiple copies of each Warframe - in which case good for you, now you won't need duplicates for your duplicates.

There are several actions that could be performed on these bundled Shards:

• Start a new bundle for a Warframe type using 1 Shard.
• Add 1 Shard to an existing bundle.
• Remove 1 Shard from an existing bundle for some resource cost.
• Break a bundle apart entirely for some resource cost.

Acquisition

Addressing the Shard color inconsistencies and potential for dilution is simple: allow players to pay some resource to cycle a Shard from one color to the next. Players will get the colors they want eventually anyways, so why not let them put in some additional effort to get where they want to be sooner?

Coming in the Citrine's Last Wish update will be a "pity system" for Tau Shard drops, but this alone doesn't address all of the issues. A method of upgrading Shards into Tau Shards would still be beneficial, and would ensure that regular Shards retain value even when a player has moved on to Taus. The most straight-forward way to do this is by letting players combine Shards into Tau Shards. With the pity system in Citrine's Last Wish and a 3:1 conversion rate, acquisition rates go from:

• 5 weeks for 5 Tau Shards for the most lucky
• 25 weeks for 5 Tau Shards with average luck
• Infinite weeks for 5 Tau Shards for the least lucky - they will never drop

To, with Citrine's Last Wish:

• 5 weeks for 5 Tau Shards for the most lucky
• 12.5 weeks for 5 Tau Shards with average luck
• 25 weeks for 5 Tau Shards for the least lucky

To, with both Citrine's Last Wish and a 3:1 fusion system:

• 3.75 weeks for 5 Tau Shards for the most lucky
• 5.36 weeks for 5 Tau Shards with average luck
• 6.25 weeks for 5 Tau Shards for the least lucky

The main difference, aside from the lower overall acquisition time, is that it is more fair. With Citrine alone, the least lucky player will earn half as many Tau Shards over a given period of time as the average. With 3:1 fusion, the least lucky player still gets ~6 Tau Shards for every 7 earned by the average.

And lastly, if you can combine Shards to make Tau Shards, why not let you do the opposite and break Tau Shards into Shards?

Altogether, these could be supported by adding three more actions that can be performed on Shards:

• Cycle a Shard of one color to the next for some resource cost (Crimson → Azure → Amber → Crimson).
• Combine 3 Shards into 1 Tau Shard for some resource cost.
• Separate 1 Tau Shard into 3 Shards for some resource cost.

But if you can create a Tau Shard using three Shards and vice-versa, are Tau Shards even necessary?

Implementation - Archon Crystals

The above features and improvements can be implemented by retiring Tau Shards and adding new Archon Crystals.

Crystals would be formed using Shards, be tied to a Warframe type like an Augment or Legacy Arcane Helmet, and be equipped in a new Archon Crystal slot unlocked by visiting Helminth after installing the Archon Shard Crystal Orbiter Segment. Preparing a Warframe to accept an Archon Crystal would have a one-time cost in place of the current one-time cost you'll need to pay when you migrate Shards to a new Prime Warframe. The slot for Archon Crystals would just go with your Arcanes.

Crystals could be manipulated in several ways:

• Forge a Crystal for a Warframe type using 1 Shard. Starts with 1 stat picked depending on the color of the Shard being used.
• Add a stat to a Crystal using 1 Shard (up to 5 stats total). The pool of stats that can be picked depends on the color of the Shard being used.
• Upgrade a stat by +25% using 1 Shard of the same color (up to twice per stat, capping out at +50%).
• Replace a stat with a different stat within the same color.
• Remove a stat for a cost, refunding 1 Shard of that color (or up to 3 Shards if the stat has been upgraded).
• Shatter the Crystal for a cost, refunding all Shards.

Tau Shards are redundant in this system and can be retired since the same results can be achieved by upgrading a stat in situ. This is the same end result as if you removed a Shard, upgraded it to Tau using additional Shards, and then reinstalled it - just with fewer clicks. Because Tau Shards are now redundant, installed Tau Shards can be refunded as three Shards of the same color, installed Shards can be returned, and any Warframe with an Archon Shard already installed can have the slot unlocked automatically.

To tell them apart, Crystals can have different icons depending on the number of stats, and could reflect the overall colors and upgrade status:

Crystals with upgraded stats still have the appearance of Tau Shards in the two related Ephemera.

The additional color cycling option can also be added. This would cost the same kinds of resources as removing Shards or shattering Crystals.

Cycling could alternatively be done using a crafting recipe in the Foundry.

These options can also be accessed with a shortcut built into the Arsenal menu where Crystals are selected.

So far the mock-ups have featured the Lotus as the one to manage Archon Crystals. This is for a few reasons. The first is that it'd be cool to finally have a way to visit the Lotus ingame. Players have been asking for something like that since there's been a Lotus, and this would add a practical use to her throne room. The second is that it just makes more sense:

Spoiler

In The New War the Lotus is revived by absorbing Archon Shards, and this is a major plot point.

She is a Sentient, was able to use Archon Shards on herself, knows about the Archons and how they were created, and is the one to direct us in our fights against them.

It just seems more fitting that she would manage this instead of some wall goo. In this case the player would be able to visit the Lotus at her throne room and her Tau Forge on Lua (or wherever), and the resource required to destructively modify Crystals or cycle Shards would be Narmer Isoplasts instead of Bile. Isoplasts are already used for crafting Archon weapons and the Sentient Warframe, so using them to manipulate Archon Shards seems more fitting. This has the dual role of reducing the Bile costs and adding a reason to continue playing Narmer content, which is currently a ghost town. Helminth still has a role as the one to prepare our Warframes to accept Crystals, which also preserves a reason to have the current Archon Shard Crystal Orbiter Segment.

Alternatively, all of these features can be added to Helminth instead of the Lotus. This would be quicker to do and require less effort, though it would be far less cool.

TL;DR:

• The improvements coming in Citrine's Last Wish are good - but don't fix all of the problems with this system.
• Bundling Shards into an equippable item instead of installing them on individual Warframes would be good:
  • Works with configs.
  • Always have somewhere to put your Shards, even if you only play few frames. You can have as many on your frame as you want.
  • Won't lose your Shards if you accidentally sell your frame or feed it to Helminth.
• Making Tau Shards accessible by combining Shards would also be good:
  • Won't take 3 months per frame.
  • Always have a use for Shards to use for upgrading.
• Both together can be achieved with Archon Crystals.
  • Use 1 Shard to make 1 Crystal with 1 stat, which goes on the frame it's built for. Nova Crystals go on Novas, Titania Crystals go on Titania, etc.
  • Add 1 Shard to add 1 stat, up to 5 total.
  • Add 1-2 Shards to upgrade 1 stat to +25-50%. There are no more Tau Shards, you just use Shards. Random Hunt Tau Shard just becomes a bundle of 3 Shards.
  • Can remove stats one at a time for a refund.
  • Can break the whole Crystal all at once for a refund.
  • Same features we have now.
  • Same results as a 3:1 conversion rate for Shards into Tau Shards, just simpler.
• Plus some nice new features:
  • Cycle the color of a Shard (Crimson → Azure → Amber → Crimson).
  • Visit the Lotus at her Tau Forge on Lua.

Thanks to @(XBOX)DragonMan 2700 for hashing this out with me.

Edited July 13, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

lmb (🔥_lllll🔥) dml  hell yeah, the feelings mutual  @PublikDomain  I would agree the back and forth between us has made the overall proposal for the improvement of Archon Shard Crystal system greater as a whole, great job on the post👍 and here's hoping DE accepts. 🤞 

 

 Also, since I just gotta be knuckle head, imagine this "Lotus" asking, are you ready tenno :> lul.

[TenTonneSkeleton]

I don't have a whole lot to add to this post since you cover most of the concerns with the system that I had also. I think you did a fantastic job writing this up and your visual mock-ups are excellent. Clearly you've put a lot of time and thought into this. Well done.

I especially like the Archon Crystal idea and it makes a ton of sense. I think it's a system I would enjoy using. 

I think the only thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way is that each crystal would ideally be tailored toward a particular frame and build. Means you would still need to farm absolute truck ton of these to get the level of customization you would want. I guess thats really no different than the current system since you would need the same amount of shards (other than the fact you can now transmute them). Only difference is you could make a "one size fits all" crystal to be shared as a generally good upgrade across all frames (if im understanding your system correctly, the crystals would act just like mods and arcanes in that they can be shared) Probably a good middle ground between the current system and having each shard be sharable. I'll have to stew on this a bit and see if I can think of any further refinements I would like to see in the system.

I also LOVE the idea of Lotus exclusively handling all the Archon Shard stuff in a special "Tau Forge" in her throne room. Makes way more sense than the Helminth.

 

 

I guess the only thing I feel is missing from your proposal is the actual Archon hunts themselves. In their current state they are just reskins of sorties. Revisiting some locations from the New War, like Unums tower. I wish that acquisition of the shards felt more unique and fun to do every week. We've been doing sorties for years and the last thing I wanted was to keep doing them under a reskin. Feels lazy and boring. I feel that the archon hunts really should be true endgame content and test our builds and skills in every aspect of the game from frame to weapon to railjack to necramech.

The boss fights themselves are ok I think but could be improved also. One thing that makes me sad is that DE tends to dump half baked content on us, and then move on to the next shiny thing without much thought of sustainability and staying power of that content. Something to break the tedium a bit would be appreciated.

We get plenty of intact sentient cores from these missions, so that could easily be a resource when it comes to manipulation of archon shards. Gathering other resources for shard and crystal forging during the archon missions would feel rewarding.

I would like the ability to fuse an augment or an augment mod slot to the Archon Crystal somehow (might even be able to design a whole new system where you can augment each ability simultaneously with a "perk"). I know this is a whole separate topic, but these crystals are meant to "augment" specific frames in specific ways and it could be an opportunity to tackle the augment problem. I still struggle to find space for most augments on my builds. since most of them fall into the category of being "nice but not necessary" There could be a balanced way to do this, but i'm not entirely sure on the specifics. Perhaps some augments can be infused but not all. There is a 10-15% category of augments that add a certain level of power to a frame where they actually justify a mod slot.

Perhaps you could forge a GREEN archon shard variant using an augment mod and some specific set of resources that coincide with that associated frame specically. This could be a big resource dump and give us a reason to use some of those dead resources. For example Frost could take some combination of the following: Frostleaf, Cryotic, Asterite, Goblite Tears (whatever). The Archon shard would be apply a modified perk to the frame via the Archon Crystal augmenting that particular ability. Associated augments couldn't be run alongside their shard versions for obvious reasons. This would give DE a chance to balance the augments to be used for this new system.

Each Archon Crystal gets slots for 4 green shards, alternatively the green shards just get their own crystal.

 

On that note of power creep I'm still surprised the archon shard system exists at all since it's the very definition of power creep. I would like to see a lot of dead resources go into archon shard forging and for the whole system to really feel like endgame content. Archon hunts themselves should be much more difficult and involved I think so we have a purpose for our overpowered builds.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by TenTonneSkeleton

[PublikDomain]

Hey, thanks for the kind words! And thanks to the mod that helped move this thread out of the locked subforum!

11 hours ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

I think the only thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way is that each crystal would ideally be tailored toward a particular frame and build. Means you would still need to farm absolute truck ton of these to get the level of customization you would want. I guess thats really no different than the current system since you would need the same amount of shards (other than the fact you can now transmute them). Only difference is you could make a "one size fits all" crystal to be shared as a generally good upgrade across all frames (if im understanding your system correctly, the crystals would act just like mods and arcanes in that they can be shared) Probably a good middle ground between the current system and having each shard be sharable. I'll have to stew on this a bit and see if I can think of any further refinements I would like to see in the system.

They could always add more ways to get Shards or give more of them if that ended up being an issue. For example, maybe in the future they add a Tau open world where there are daily Sentient world bosses or something, or add them to a Sentient-themed Raid, or a revamped Invasion system that rewards Stock and a raised weekly purchase limit in Chipper's store. I don't know how critical increasing the acquisition rate is, though, and I suspect having multiple Crystals would end up being either A) spoiling your mains or a flex or B) limited to a few frames that would really benefit from it (like Nova, being able to support both Speedva and Slowva builds). Luckily the solution, if it does end up a problem, is pretty simple.

11 hours ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

I guess the only thing I feel is missing from your proposal is the actual Archon hunts themselves.

That's true, lol. This only focuses on the Shards and how they're used/acquired.

11 hours ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

On that note of power creep I'm still surprised the archon shard system exists at all since it's the very definition of power creep. I would like to see a lot of dead resources go into archon shard forging and for the whole system to really feel like endgame content. Archon hunts themselves should be much more difficult and involved I think so we have a purpose for our overpowered builds.

At this point I wouldn't say I'm shocked, maybe more confused than anything lol. They're not much different than Galvanized Mods causing the AoE meta to boil over, which they're still trying to deal with. The problems with powercreep are really only when it isn't being managed, or can't be managed, and making your players super unpredictable is a good way to ensure you're unable to balance anything and counteract powercreep's negative effects. Shards and Taus are yet another layer of powercreep that can't be assumed or predicted on top of all the other layers we've already got. And we really don't need them since we already lack a place to use the vast power we've got, let alone even more. But getting rid of them isn't a realistic option, so at the very least I feel that they should be made consistent and accessible so it can just be assumed that a high-level player is going to use them. Then high-level content can be balanced assuming they're being used, and if a player doesn't have them then they will at least have a clear, reliable path to getting there within a reasonable amount of time.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

On 2022-11-30 at 11:14 AM, TenTonneSkeleton said:

I especially like the Archon Crystal idea and it makes a ton of sense. I think it's a system I would enjoy using. 

Put another line on the chalk board we got one more believer in Archon Crystal's Whoooo! 😎🤘

[Skaleek]

So I still only have 1 tauforged. This system makes me feel so bad that I just stopped playing Warframe. I've been playing since 2013, and I even grit'd my teeth through the initial lich release and played through it. But this system... Oh man, I think its the straw for my back. I just find myself not even willing to log on due to the sour feelings I get when i do anything with archon shards. I even heard Lua's prey is a solid update but i just can't login anymore. I've never stopped/uninstalled warframe in the almost 10 years Ive been playing it and I think this is the thing. The thing that finally got me to get the #*!% outta here because its such a poorly implemented system.

This sucks:

 

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Skaleek

[Voltage]

@PublikDomainThis is a fantastic idea. ^{I'll take anything at this point.}

This system is absolutely horrendous at the moment. I am moderately lucky and I am still just as upset about how these work as the unlucky ones. I have no desire to slot any Shards either until they allow us to make even a dent in our overall arsenal and allow us to tether stats to specific configs. Not every modding configuration has the same opportunity cost for these bonuses.

[Frendh]

On 2022-11-26 at 7:19 AM, PublikDomain said:

The Archon Shard system has some outstanding issues that have become increasingly apparent as the weeks roll by. It's certainly not an exhaustive list, but:

1. The acquisition of Tau Shards is completely RNG-based. There is no way to get them aside from getting lucky, and the odds are against you. You may go months without seeing one.
2. The acquisition of Tau Shards takes a very long time. Even with average luck, it will take on average 25-75 weeks to get 5 Tau Shards of the desired type for just one frame. For comparison, regular Shards take only take 2.5-7.5 weeks and offer 2/3rds the stats.
3. Not all Shard colors are equally valuable. Some players will find more use from some colors over others.
4. Shards will experience drop dilution if new Shards are added. Each new Archon and colored Shard DE might add in the future will add an extra week to the rotations.
5. Shards are incompatible with configs. While you can quickly and conveniently change your builds using configs, you cannot have different Shards for different configs.
6. Shards are destroyed when the Warframe they are installed on is destroyed. This can happen when selling a Warframe or feeding it to Helminth, and while rare there are already posts about this happening.
7. Shards are finite content. A Warframe can only hold a finite number of Shards, and there are a finite number of Warframes. You will eventually run out of places you'll want to put your Shards, and will eventually run out of places you can put your Shards.

 

1. Not a problem.  It is not the players' right to get Taus.

2. Not a problem.

3. Not a problem. Same goes for all items in the game. Weapons, mods, arcanes, warframes etc.

4. Might be a problem. I doubt it though.

5. Not a problem. Make your choice. If you cannot stick by one choice then invest in more frames.

6. Problem.

7. Not a problem. This already happened to a lot of items. If you mean that you want to be able to have a use for spare shards, like selling for  credits or endo, then you need to be clear about it.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Frendh said:

1. Not a problem.  It is not the players' right to get Taus.

2. Not a problem.

3. Not a problem. Same goes for all items in the game. Weapons, mods, arcanes, warframes etc.

4. Might be a problem. I doubt it though.

5. Not a problem. Make your choice. If you cannot stick by one choice then invest in more frames.

6. Problem.

7. Not a problem. This already happened to a lot of items. If you mean that you want to be able to have a use for spare shards, like selling for  credits or endo, then you need to be clear about it.

What?

If you don't see these as problems, great! But other people do. Are you harmed in any way by such a system being implemented? I don't see how you could be. Why comment like this? Please be constructive.

[Frendh]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

What?

If you don't see these as problems, great! But other people do. Are you harmed in any way by such a system being implemented? I don't see how you could be. Why comment like this? Please be constructive.

Explaining why you have an opinion is being constructive.

I did not post to help you. Post to show DE I do not support your ideas.

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Explaining why you have an opinion is being constructive.

I did not post to help you. Post to show DE I do not support your ideas.

What does "not a problem" explain, though? Why don't you support these ideas? Beyond just "nuh"?

[Frendh]

4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

What does "not a problem" explain, though? Why don't you support these ideas? Beyond just "nuh"?

Are you asking for details on 2. ?

There is already precedent for a large scale on time for procuring items in the game.  There is nothing surprising or wrong by having a powerful item on the farthest end of that scale. This is part of the core of warframe, I assumed it did not need explaining. Some people can cope with long wait times and other people cannot. Entirely subjective matter.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Frendh

[PublikDomain]

21 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Are you asking for details on 2. ?

There is already precedent for a large scale on time for procuring items in the game.  There is nothing surprising or wrong by having a powerful item on the farthest end of that scale. This is part of the core of warframe, I assumed it did not need explaining. Some people can cope with long wait times and other cannot. Entirely subjective matter.

All of them, really. "Not a problem" doesn't give me much to go on. Not a problem why? For example, a piece of content being finite and no longer having value after a period of time seems to me like it would certainly be less desirable than the alternative.

There's also a lot of precedent for these kinds of things being addressed. RNG-protection (1) has been added to the game many, many times. Lua's Prey just introduced RNG-protection for the drops, and DE praised this on the devstream before its release. There's also the RNG-protection on Lich/Sister weapon rolls. Excessive time investments (2) have also been addressed before. Lich Ephemera drop rates were increased post-launch, and systems like Valence were added which reduced the time investments for Lich weapons and Railjacks. Or making more content equally valuable (3), like DE's balancing of AoE weapons, guns vs melee, balancing Focus Schools, Rivens, etc. Drop table dilution (4) was one of the reasons for the introduction of the Prime Vault, and was a major issue back in the day. Frustrations with dilution is also why we got RNG-protection systems for Lich/Sister weapons in the first place. Incompatibility with configs (5) were addressed when Arcanes were removed from cosmetics and given their own config slots, and is the reason Helminth allows you to swap abilities per-config. Not needing duplicate items (also 5) has precedent as well: you don't need duplicate mods to share between your frame and companion anymore, and systems like limited frame slots, Helminth, and the ability to buy additional config slots encourage getting rid of old frames and having just one copy.

And while this topic is absolutely subjective, I have to ask: if you're not negatively impacted by a change intended to fix a problem that other people are experiencing, why say no? If something about this would harm your experience then I could understand resistance, and in which case I'd like to find a better-fitting solution, but if you wouldn't be affected then why be a roadblock for an issue that affects others?

Edited December 5, 2022 by PublikDomain

[Frendh]

53 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And while this topic is absolutely subjective, I have to ask: if you're not negatively impacted by a change intended to fix a problem that other people are experiencing, why say no? If something about this would harm your experience then I could understand resistance, and in which case I'd like to find a better-fitting solution, but if you wouldn't be affected then why be a roadblock for an issue that affects others?

With exaggeration, giving out things like candy ruins the experience. Warframe is a grinding game. Has been since it went public.

People complain about almost all things in game. Luckily most of it goes ignored. We can't have the game constantly being shaped by the consumers.

1. Had explanation.

2. Dealt with.

3. Had explanation.

4. Does it really need an explanation? You are speculating.

5.  Had explanation.

6. Does not need explanation.

7. Had explanation.

[PublikDomain]

12 minutes ago, Frendh said:

With exaggeration, giving out things like candy ruins the experience. Warframe is a grinding game. Has been since it went public.

People complain about almost all things in game. Luckily most of it goes ignored. We can't have the game constantly being shaped by the consumers.

1. Had explanation.

2. Dealt with.

3. Had explanation.

4. Does it really need an explanation? You are speculating.

5.  Had explanation.

6. Does not need explanation.

7. Had explanation.

Okie dokie, then.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

no idea how you think the content is finite. just for the current number of frames, if you get both shards per week, you're looking at 2 and a 1/2 years to fully fill all 51 frames.

the whole thing of people deleting your shards, just don't put them in frames that you know have a prime or have an upcoming one. no idea why you would put shards into those.

[PublikDomain]

 

49 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

the whole thing of people deleting your shards, just don't put them in frames that you know have a prime or have an upcoming one. no idea why you would put shards into those.

People make mistakes, man, and you can already find posts about this happening on the forums. It's real easy to dismiss things when they haven't happened to you yet. Anyone with Shards in their Baruuks are going to have to be extra vigilant upgrading to Baruuk Prime around the new years.

47 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

no idea how you think the content is finite. just for the current number of frames, if you get both shards per week, you're looking at 2 and a 1/2 years to fully fill all 51 frames.

And after 2.5 years? It's really more like 3 years, since DE will likely add another half a year worth of frames for regular Shards in that time. At that point you'll have more Shards than there are slots to install them, unless you have duplicate frames for some reason, so there won't be a reason to collect regular Shards anymore. That means that Chipper's store Shard will no longer have value and Taus will be the only type of Shard that can be used. 3 years really isn't that far away. With the ability to install more than just 5 total Shards per frame, which Crystals would allow, not only would the value of Shards be preserved forever - you'd also gain all of the other benefits like config compatibility and that extra layer of security when managing your frames.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to come up with a possible solution to The Tau Archon Shard Roulette Wheel of Shame.  I personally just wish the Tau Shard was  removed from the equation to make things simple, but that is highly unlikely and anything to change the current system to be more equitable for all, is step in the right direction! 

At the bare minimum maybe DE will actually say SOMETHING about it, as its alarming how much they are ignoring the topic like it was Covid.  Keep up the good work, as it seems like a decent enough solution. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

PS
Ignore the players who poo poo your idea and say everything is fine the way it is.  They are just too lazy to stop and think about the flaws with the current system and try to provide any ideas to improve it. 

[(PSN)crow5716]

This is a fantastic post. I would love to see your ideas implemented in to the shard system.

I have done every Archon Hunt since it was added to the game and have not received a Tau Forged yet. 😭

[PublikDomain]

18 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

PS
Ignore the players who poo poo your idea and say everything is fine the way it is.  They are just too lazy to stop and think about the flaws with the current system and try to provide any ideas to improve it. 

I'm actually ok with some poo-pooing. If there's something about this proposal someone doesn't like and they can articulate it in an understandable way, then I'd like to hear it. If I can make this proposal more inclusive to more viewpoints then that's even better, and hopefully everyone could walk away from it benefiting in some way. For example, there are some who say they find "excitement" in the RNG for Tau Shards, so this proposal still includes the RNG along with RNG protection for those who don't feel the same way.

Unrelated to that, I did want to mention that a neat benefit of this system is that it's compatible with a lot of other ideas. There's room to add new types of Shards and new Archons to fight, and room for new places to acquire them like in this suggestion:

Raising the weekly allotment from 2-3 to 3-4 Shards would be no big deal if we had more places to put them and more ways to use them. Same with other ideas like trade.

Edited December 6, 2022 by PublikDomain

[Xylena_Lazarow]

A lot of the negativity would go away once there's a Warframe option for the weekly 2nd Shard. Kahl is polarizing and divisive.

[Cerenax]

On 2022-11-26 at 3:19 AM, PublikDomain said:

Shards are finite content. A Warframe can only hold a finite number of Shards, and there are a finite number of Warframes. You will eventually run out of places you'll want to put your Shards, and will eventually run out of places you can put your Shards.

To be honest of all the problems with shards this is realistically the only one that no player is ever going to run into.

[PublikDomain]

4 minutes ago, Cerenax said:

To be honest of all the problems with shards this is realistically the only one that no player is ever going to run into.

It's way more realistic than it seems, actually.

There are currently 51 Warframes, which means there are 255 total slots (unless you have duplicate frames for some reason). You get 2 Shards a week, so you'll run out of slots in 127.5 weeks. That's just under 900 days - less than the 1,000-day Daily Tribute system. So regular Shards are already on timescales we've seen in the game before. In that time DE will inevitably add more frames, but even then it's going to be "only" about 3 years or so before players catch up and run out of slots they can fill.

And that's only if you want to fill every slot on every frame! Most players aren't going to like every single frame in the game and have a burning desire to completely kit them out. I have only 4 frames I play regularly, so for me I'm already done. All of the frames I actually play already have all of their slots filled with what I want to install, and I've already got a surplus of a dozen spare Shards I don't have anywhere to use.

[Steel_Rook]

I have an alternate proposition for upgrading Shards to Tau. Allow players to "level up" their Shards through play, similar to Focus. Equip a Shard on a Warframe, then play that Warframe. The Shard would acquire XP and eventually progress into a Tau-Forged version, or whatever else we might want to call it ("empowered" maybe)? This does two things. Firstly, it cuts down on redundant currencies only usable for a single activity. Secondly, it prevents players from stockpiling currency in anticipation of new releases. It means DE don't have to keep inventing currencies for every new Shard type release.

As to converting Shards between colours... I honestly don't know of a good way to do that without a new currency or a lot of additional UI work. Although I could see the addition of ONE new type of Shard - a "blank". The player would be able to equip a "blank" shard, choose any bonus from any colour, then play the game and earn experience. Eventually, that Shard would attain the colour representing the bonus that the player chose. No bonus would be given until this process is complete.

I doubt this will happen, though. DE like their RNG lootboxes, and something like this is far too deterministic.

[PublikDomain]

Citrine's Last Wish will come with a pity system for Taus. Each week that a Tau doesn't drop from an Archon Hunt, the chance of the Shard dropping from the next Hunt will increase by 20% up to a guaranteed drop after 5 weeks. I wanted to show some comparisons between that and fusion/fusion-adjacent systems like Crystals.

Here are the outcomes for different fusion rates for a fusion system with the current 20%-only drop chance:

For 5 Taus	Best Luck	Average Luck	Worst Luck
Fusion Rate	(weeks for 5 Taus)	(weeks for 5 Taus)	(weeks for 5 Taus)	Average Weeks Per Tau	Average:Worst Luck Ratio
1:1	2.50	2.50	2.50	0.50	1:1
2:1	3.33	4.55	5.00	0.91	~10:9
3:1	3.75	6.25	7.50	1.25	6:5
4:1	4.00	7.69	10.00	1.54	~9:7
5:1	4.17	8.93	12.50	1.79	7:5
6:1	4.29	10.00	15.00	2.00	3:2
7:1	4.38	10.94	17.50	2.19	8:5
8:1	4.44	11.76	20.00	2.35	~12:7
9:1	4.50	12.50	22.50	2.50	9:5
10:1	4.55	13.16	25.00	2.63	~17:9
11:1	4.58	13.75	27.50	2.75	2:1
12:1	4.62	14.29	30.00	2.86	~19:9
13:1	4.64	14.77	32.50	2.95	11:5
14:1	4.67	15.22	35.00	3.04	~16:7
15:1	4.69	15.63	37.50	3.13	12:5
N/A	5.00	25.00	NaN	5.00	NaN

And here are the average outcomes for the new pity system coming with Citrine:

Number of Weeks	Chance For Tau	Chance To Reach	Taus Per 100	Total Weeks Per Tier For 100
1	20%	20.00%	20	20
2	40%	32.00%	32	64
3	60%	28.80%	28.8	86.4
4	80%	15.36%	15.36	61.44
5	100%	3.84%	3.84	19.2

And here's how that breaks down over time compared to the current system:

For 5 Taus	Best Luck	Average Luck	Worst Luck
Fusion Rate	(weeks for 5 Taus)	(weeks for 5 Taus)	(weeks for 5 Taus)	Average Weeks Per Tau	Average:Worst Luck Ratio
Current System	5.00	25.00	NaN	5.00	NaN
New Pity System	5.00	12.55	25.00	2.51	~2:1

So the new pity system offers the same rate of acquisition as a 9:1 fusion rate, and the same equity as a 11:1 fusion rate. So while not perfect, it is a pretty big step up from having the chance to get zero Taus ever.

However, this pity system falls short in several ways. Of the issues outlined in the OP, these remain:

Quote

• Not all Shard colors are equally valuable. Some players will find more use from some colors over others.
• Shards will experience drop dilution if new Shards are added. Each new Archon and colored Shard DE might add in the future will add an extra week to the rotations.
• Shards are incompatible with configs. While you can quickly and conveniently change your builds using configs, you cannot have different Shards for different configs.
• Shards are destroyed when the Warframe they are installed on is destroyed. This can happen when selling a Warframe or feeding it to Helminth, and while rare there are already posts about this happening.
• Shards are finite content. A Warframe can only hold a finite number of Shards, and there are a finite number of Warframes. You will eventually run out of places you'll want to put your Shards, and will eventually run out of places you can put your Shards.

The most important being the last one. This pity system does nothing to add value to regular Shards, which will still end up as junk. With the addition of Citrine, players will have more Shards than slots to put them in after 130 weeks of Hunts and Kahl missions - exactly 2.5 years. After that point the player will have more Shards than slots to use those Shards in, so the only type left to obtain will be Taus. Since Kahl's Garrison only offers regulars, and regulars have no other use, regulars will begin to lose value as an evergreen reward. 2.5 years is shorter than the main track of the Daily Tribute system, so this is not an unheard of amount of time for Warframe.

A fusion system would prevent this by always ensuring that regular Shards can be used for something. And as before, a system for separating Shards from Warframes with an intermediary item would add the missing compatibility with the config system, eliminate accidental loss, and prevent Shards from ending up a finite system.

However, there may be a new problem created by the pity system from Citrine's Last Wish. Because the chance increases for each failed attempt, and players won't have a way to choose where that increase counts towards, players that want a specific color Tau Shard will be encouraged to skip content to save their drop bonus for a Hunt they prefer. Even an optimal approach involves skipping content:

Edit: as of 2/6, it's been clarified that the pity system is per each individual color so the above issue will no longer occur. However, there would still be no reason to do content for Shard colors players don't care for, so while pity won't be potentially harmful it will still leave some content as undesirable.

A system for cycling colors would prevent that by ensuring that players can always find value in the Shards they collect, and as before would prevent the negative effects of drop dilution that will arise from the addition of new Shard colors.

Luckily, a fusion system can work alongside the pity system coming in Citrine's Last Wish. Here are the outcomes of thew new pity system with Shard fusion on top:

For 5 Taus	Best Luck	Average Luck	Worst Luck
Fusion Rate	(weeks for 5 Taus)	(weeks for 5 Taus)	(weeks for 5 Taus)	Average Weeks Per Tau	Average:Worst Luck Ratio
1:1	2.50	2.50	2.50	0.50	1:1
2:1	3.33	4.17	4.55	0.83	~10:9
3:1	3.75	5.36	6.25	1.07	~7:6
4:1	4.00	6.26	7.69	1.25	~11:9
5:1	4.17	6.96	8.93	1.39	~9:7
6:1	4.29	7.52	10.00	1.50	~4:3
7:1	4.38	7.97	10.94	1.59	~11:8
8:1	4.44	8.35	11.76	1.67	~7:5
9:1	4.50	8.68	12.50	1.74	~13:9
10:1	4.55	8.95	13.16	1.79	~13:9
11:1	4.58	9.19	13.75	1.84	~3:2
12:1	4.62	9.40	14.29	1.88	~3:2
13:1	4.64	9.59	14.77	1.92	~14:9
14:1	4.67	9.75	15.22	1.95	~14:9
15:1	4.69	9.90	15.63	1.98	~11:7
New Pity System	5.00	12.55	NaN	2.51	NaN

A 3:1 fusion rate would be similar enough to the originally-proposed 2:1. In that case, instead of upgrading your Crystal from regular to the +50% stat you'd add 2 Shards instead of just 1. Alternatively, and maybe more intuitively, each additional Shard could just add +25%.

Edited February 7, 2023 by PublikDomain