Universal Vacuum, and a New Passive for Mag

[_Anise_]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Mag's radius is 8m

a lazy fix that would work like others said would be making it stack with similar effects, 

I think it should probably just be changed to something else, the power levels of warframe passives range from comically useless to class defining or even borderline broken! I think most frames could benefit from a complete passive rework

[Probably_Asleep]

24 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

a lazy fix that would work like others said would be making it stack with similar effects, 

I think it should probably just be changed to something else, the power levels of warframe passives range from comically useless to class defining or even borderline broken! I think most frames could benefit from a complete passive rework

It's not every day I can say that I agree with every single word in someone's post. Today is one of those days.

[Amolistic.]

On 2023-02-24 at 7:28 AM, Zahnny said:

Personally I'd love to see an Overhaul of many Warframes passive abilities.

Either turn them into something that has synergy with their kit, or just something more noteworthy.

 

Looking at Rhino. According to the wiki, it stacks with mods that do the same effect but after testing it a few weeks ago I can confirm that is false.

Made a rework concept for Rhino's passive here.

 

You know who also have the same type of passive? Revenant.

Though being a very very hardcore rhino main has me wonder how questionable this passive is...

[AegidiusF]

Le 24/02/2023 à 00:28, Zahnny a dit :

Looking at Rhino. According to the wiki, it stacks with mods that do the same effect but after testing it a few weeks ago I can confirm that is false.

The Wiki is a very nice tool to discover new things, but it is very hard to keep all the information updated. That's why you've done the right thing : always test what is said there.

To give a very simple exemple of weird things on the Wiki :

On Trinity's abilities page :

Citation

 

Players with channeled abilities active do not gain energy from Energy Vampire.

• Players channeling  Effigy and  Mend & Maim still do benefit from Energy Vampire.

 

On Chroma's abilities page :

Citation

Chroma cannot gain energy from  Energy Vampire,  Rally Point, Rift Plane's innate energy regeneration, Squad Energy Restores,  Energy Siphon and/or  Wellspring while Effigy is active.

 

About Mag's passive, if they don't want to make a new one, it should at least have the same range as Fetch and Vacuum.

Edited May 4, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2023-02-23 at 9:13 PM, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Please improve Mag's passive. It's just vacuum.

I know what you mean, I said from time ago that mag`s passive is a slap in the face, we asked for vacuum on warframes/operators but we didn`t get it but you make it a passive for a wf? really?

Now that DE has different ppl in charge we should ask for uni vac again, I'll keep saying it, Ratchet & Clank can pick up bolts, Sonic can pick up rings why the heck can`t warframes/operators do it? (and yes I know operators can but it`s only 3m).

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by (PSN)Vexx757

[AsffluffyZ]

On 2023-05-01 at 2:50 PM, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

(Not like there's a lot of competition anyway for companion mod slots in the first place)

I disagree Coolant leak is a staple of mine.

[Probably_Asleep]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

I know what you mean, I said from time ago that mag`s passive is a slap in the face, we asked for vacuum on warframes/operators but we didn`t get it but you make it a passive for a wf? really. 

Now that DE had different ppl in charge we should ask for uni vac again, i`ll keep saying it, Ratchet & Clank can pick up bolts, Sonic can pick up rings why the heck can warframes/operators do it? (and yes I know operators can but it`s only 3m).

 

I'm not sure which voices carry the most weight with the creative team, but I hope whoever has that voice will make the case. If Duviri is supposed to be also for new players, then there's going to be a rude awakening when they get into the Origin System and realize that their item collection radius suddenly goes way down.

So I'm hoping that it'll go like this:

1. Lots of new players try Duviri
2. Those players get to Origin, realized they need a mod now for something they've been taking for granted
3. Lots of complaining happens
4. DE is like "hmmm... I guess we shouldn't deprive the new players of a privilege they were given by default"
5. DE makes Universal Vacuum a thing
6. Similar to when Hildryn's Shield Gating became universal, DE will think "wait... this invalidates Mag's passive if we give it to everyone..."
7. DE finally gives Mag a good passive

That would be my 7th Heaven (I've never really watched the show so I can't tell you if that's a good reference)

I REALLY want something for energy, but I'd be happy if they take the same route they did with Hildryn. Her pasit lsive is +131% more than the universal Shield Gate. By that ratio, assuming they give everyone Mag's 8m, then Mag should get 18.5m pickup radius. I'd be fine with that.

After some testing it appears the Drifter's default radius is 7 (if I'm basing off of the marked resource number). I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually 8m just like Mag's and I'm only seeing it start to move at 7m because of some discrepancy between hit box boarder and player object center.

2 hours ago, AsffluffyZ said:

I disagree Coolant leak is a staple of mine.

I like Coolant leak in some situations, but I don't like that it alerts enemies and ruins stealth kills. (Which is a shame because I'd love for enemies to be slower when I'm approaching to murder them in "cold" blood)

[sweetrules]

I like the overshield suggestion as it would synergize with crush and just maintaining your overshields. But I'd also be all for her just having better vacuum than others if everyone gets universal vacuum. If they were to buff her like newer frames and give her two passives or more, I think both would be good, or maybe the magnetic immunity suggestion would be a nice thing as well. It'd be a nice niche thing, considering magnetic is her thing.

[Probably_Asleep]

On 2023-06-06 at 5:05 PM, sweetrules said:

I like the overshield suggestion as it would synergize with crush and just maintaining your overshields. But I'd also be all for her just having better vacuum than others if everyone gets universal vacuum. If they were to buff her like newer frames and give her two passives or more, I think both would be good, or maybe the magnetic immunity suggestion would be a nice thing as well. It'd be a nice niche thing, considering magnetic is her thing.

Ya I usually only care about keeping shields up for shield gating, and Polarize does that much quicker and without requiring a certain amount of enemies nearby. But I'd be much more inclined to use Crush if I thought of it like an investment.

[Probably_Asleep]

On 2023-02-23 at 12:13 PM, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

1. Attacks or environmental hazards that reduce energy (Like Magnetic fields, water, Eximus, Ancients, etc.) will not drain Mag's energy (but will still damage her where applicable)
2. Mag's natural vacuum stacks additively with companion loot gathering mods like Vacuum or Fetch, giving her 19.5m or 21.5m gather range respectively
3. When using Vacuum/Fetch, Mag's 8m ability upgrades to pull all objects, including Ayatan Stars/Scuptures, Index Points, Citrine Remnants, Vitoplast, etc.
4. Mag has electromagnetic sense, allowing her to see line of sight enemies more clearly, and even outlines through 8m of wall
5. Mag has a 25% chance to instantly recover all shields when fully depleted
6. Mag gains energy when taking Cold, Electric, or Magnetic Damage
7. When Mag shoots Health Orbs, an energy restoring pulse provides energy to Mag and Allies within 8m for 25% Health Orb value
8. When Mag performs a Ground Finisher, Mag gains invulnerability to Status Effects and Damage for 4s
9. Mag's shields block Toxin Damage
10. Mag generates 1 energy/second for every 100 points of Overshields active

I ended up getting to build/buy some more Mag Primes (I now have 4) and I didn't want them to go to waste, so I've been making Loadouts and Archon Shard specializations, trying to experiment with different play styles. And this diversification has got me thinking once again on Mag's only flaw: Her useless passive. (I'm sorry for saying you have a flaw, Mag) So I thought I should revisit this idea and take into account some Warframe news and future plans. (As well as add a few more Passive ideas)

1. ALL elemental frames should have this by default. Mag's 2 redirects energy. That means she could strip the event horizon off of a black hole and make a naked singularity, rewriting reality itself. NO magnetic attack should have ANY effect on her.
2. This still seems like the most sensible one. It would be very valuable for gathering resources and be a unique ability no other frame offers.
3. I'd love this for Zariman missions and Ayatan farming. I don't think it would be OP to have at least one frame help with pickups since we have a few loot dup frames.
4. This one is N/A now because it sounds like they're trying to implement this universally (probably to help with Mobile)
5. This is basically an Arcane and would help with survivability especially early game when you don't have the energy to spam abilities.
6. This would be an upgrade of Item#1, but I could see this being too hard for new players to understand. ("Why do some attacks give me energy?")
7. Similar to an existing Mod so never mind about this one.
8. I think this would be a great addition. Currently there's not much incentive to play Melee-Mag, but her Pull actually makes ground finishers possible.
9. Maybe OP, but a strong toxin enemy can wipe Mag out very fast. I feel like this would complete her kit.
10. I feel like if Mag were designed today then her Passive would be something like this.

Okay now I want to add some more ideas for her Passive now that I've got to have some fun with other styles:

• Every 100 Overshield points add +0.1x Sprint Speed
• All abilities can be charged by holding before casting, increasing Ability Strength by +5% every second (this would get rid of her #2's hold ability)
• Natural vacuum starts at 8m but is affected by Ability Range and shared with Squad members in Affinity Range
• Sliding is frictionless and generates 1 energy/meter
• No limit to her OverShields
• Touching an enemy has a 50% chance of sticking current negative statuses to enemy, clearing them from Mag
• Mag gets an extra mid-air jump every time she casts an ability while in air
• Picking up shrapnel has a 0.1% chance of obtaining a rare resource
• Base armor scales with Ability Strength
• Every 1 point of Energy spent on Abilities adds +0.1x to next Primary Weapon attack (max 20x)

 

I'd also like to point out that if DE uses one of these ideas then I will personally forgive them for putting an innocent goat under the Jackal.

[Probably_Asleep]

Just thought of another Passive option that I'd like for Mag that still goes along with her current Vacuum theme:

• Loot dropped Crates/Enemies destroyed by Mag are automatically retrieved by all squad members in Affinity Range regardless of distance

And before you go thinking that this would cause the Greedy Pull scandal all over again, The Inactivity Penalty would still behave just like normal, and the squad wouldn't automatically pick up redundant loot like from Desecrate.

[Probably_Asleep]

On 2023-02-23 at 12:13 PM, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• Walking through an enemy corpse that has been killed from Magnetic damage increases HP regeneration by +1/s (max 50 stacks)
• Applying Magnetic Procs to enemies increases parkour velocity by +5% per status for 30 seconds (max 10 stacks, stacks reset counter)
• Mag has zero friction and double slide speed
• With no Melee equipped, Ranged Weapons get +100% Magnetic Damage
• With no Ranged Weapons equipped, Mag's shields get an additional +40% Damage Reduction
• Mag gets +2% Ability Strength on next Ability cast for every 1m she falls (reset on jump)
• Crates drop double loot when Mag breaks them with Magnetic Damage
• Shooting a magnetized corpse creates an Energy Orb
• Mag gets +1.5 Punch Through in Ranged and x1.5 Follow Through on Melee
• Mag has a compass on her Map that point toward rare items when within 50m

I felt like adding to the list, but I decided I'd put it on the first post and then quote it so that people with squeaky mouse wheels could get a break.

[Probably_Asleep]

8 hours ago, (PSN)RazorsEdge6267 said:

Universal vacuum should not be tied to mods and should be put on warframes, operators/drifter, necromechs and k-drives at base.

And for the people that don`t want it, their should be a mod for it like they made for Titania's 4th ability.

Completely agree! I'd even go so far as to say it should be an Accessibility Option that can be modified at any time. Something like an "Item Attraction Distance" slider that goes between 1 and 11 meters.

And I say "Accessibility" because the amount of camera/character movement necessary when walking up to every piece of loot/ammo/orb can be a strain on people with joint or motion-sensitivity problems. (Okay I just made that up)

 

But I also think that DE knows that the players who do not want vacuum are an overwhelming minority. Mag's passive used to be attraction during bullet-jump only so players had the choice of when to and not to attract items. But with her recent rework they just made it an always-on state. DE wouldn't have made that decision if they believed there were still a good percentage of players that avoided using vacuum.

[Drasiel]

38 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Completely agree! I'd even go so far as to say it should be an Accessibility Option that can be modified at any time. Something like an "Item Attraction Distance" slider that goes between 1 and 11 meters.

And I say "Accessibility" because the amount of camera/character movement necessary when walking up to every piece of loot/ammo/orb can be a strain on people with joint or motion-sensitivity problems. (Okay I just made that up)

 

But I also think that DE knows that the players who do not want vacuum are an overwhelming minority. Mag's passive used to be attraction during bullet-jump only so players had the choice of when to and not to attract items. But with her recent rework they just made it an always-on state. DE wouldn't have made that decision if they believed there were still a good percentage of players that avoided using vacuum.

There is actually a universal vacuum distance on warframes. It's 3m which is small enough it's just barely noticeable if you pay attention. It was worse when there was none and you had to be inside the item hitbox to pick it up. The 3m innate vaccuum was added secretly and at the time it felt like Scott was trying to have a gotcha moment when he pointed out they had added it on an early devstream and no one noticed so clearly it wasn't a big deal. The problem was that people did notice, it was just so small we could never be sure. This is what 3m distance is:

 

If you were walking towards an item it was impossible to notice the vacuum at that range. I'm actually pretty sure the necramechs have the 3m universal too, but their model is so big you can't tell.

What I'd really like to see see is the Duviri base 5m loot pickup added to all operator/drifter, warframe, and necramech (although to be honest because they are so big necramech should be 8) with the vacuum mods adjusted down so total vacuum with the mods remains the same.

[Probably_Asleep]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

There is actually a universal vacuum distance on warframes. It's 3m which is small enough it's just barely noticeable if you pay attention. It was worse when there was none and you had to be inside the item hitbox to pick it up. The 3m innate vaccuum was added secretly and at the time it felt like Scott was trying to have a gotcha moment when he pointed out they had added it on an early devstream and no one noticed so clearly it wasn't a big deal. The problem was that people did notice, it was just so small we could never be sure. This is what 3m distance is:

If you were walking towards an item it was impossible to notice the vacuum at that range. I'm actually pretty sure the necramechs have the 3m universal too, but their model is so big you can't tell.

What I'd really like to see see is the Duviri base 5m loot pickup added to all operator/drifter, warframe, and necramech (although to be honest because they are so big necramech should be 8) with the vacuum mods adjusted down so total vacuum with the mods remains the same.

That's interesting! I always assumed it was always 3m. And I agree that's not enough, but wow yeah it would be brutal if you had to actually touch everything you wanted to pick up. Given the way level boundaries and object meshes are set up, there would be a lot of times when you couldn't even get to an item in that case. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be if something like a Riven Sliver or a Rare Mod fell into a crack between rubble and was impossible to get to.

I really believed after Duviri that they'd go for a universal Vacuum in the main game.

[Drasiel]

53 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

That's interesting! I always assumed it was always 3m. And I agree that's not enough, but wow yeah it would be brutal if you had to actually touch everything you wanted to pick up. Given the way level boundaries and object meshes are set up, there would be a lot of times when you couldn't even get to an item in that case. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be if something like a Riven Sliver or a Rare Mod fell into a crack between rubble and was impossible to get to.

I really believed after Duviri that they'd go for a universal Vacuum in the main game.

Oh there were definitely some bad ones, and it wasn't even just rare mods (rivens didn't exist yet) you know how you just get the warframe parts in your EOM rewards? those used to drop off of the bosses onto the ground. You can thank the older versions of the Raptor and Nova for that going away lol. Half the time you'd go to farm nova and the Free Frying Raptor would drop the part outside the bounds of the map where no one could get it. It wasn't a guaranteed drop at that time yet, if I recall correctly, either so you had to get a part to drop first then hope to hell it didn't end up in a mountain.

That had been my big hope too, clearly it was considered necessary enough that the place we can't have pets got it's own version so maybe we could just you know squeeze that into the rest of the game? Might be a few years out though there have been a lot of changes that don't fit super tightly to Steve and Scott's original vision and even though Reb is creative director of warframe and Pablo is the <title I can't remember right now here> you do have to give people time to adjust and make peace with the differing directions of the next "generation". Especially when the community response is overwhelmingly positive to those changes because managing people's pride is important even if we wish it wasn't. Human foibles you know, we all get like that.

[Probably_Asleep]

47 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Oh there were definitely some bad ones, and it wasn't even just rare mods (rivens didn't exist yet) you know how you just get the warframe parts in your EOM rewards? those used to drop off of the bosses onto the ground. You can thank the older versions of the Raptor and Nova for that going away lol. Half the time you'd go to farm nova and the Free Frying Raptor would drop the part outside the bounds of the map where no one could get it. It wasn't a guaranteed drop at that time yet, if I recall correctly, either so you had to get a part to drop first then hope to hell it didn't end up in a mountain.

Sweet golly gosh. I remember being painfully underequipped for the Raptor fight. At the time I thought I was supposed to be leveling up my weapons while completing the main Star Chart, so my weapons were all unranked with hardly any mods. It was such a long drawn out fight because I had limited ammo and had to rely on Energy Siphon to get enough energy to use my ability (I think it was 59 seconds to get enough for my 2nd) So clearly it was my fault that the fight was so hard, but if after all that time I saw the drop fall out of bounds I would have been devastated.

53 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

That had been my big hope too, clearly it was considered necessary enough that the place we can't have pets got it's own version so maybe we could just you know squeeze that into the rest of the game? Might be a few years out though there have been a lot of changes that don't fit super tightly to Steve and Scott's original vision and even though Reb is creative director of warframe and Pablo is the <title I can't remember right now here> you do have to give people time to adjust and make peace with the differing directions of the next "generation". Especially when the community response is overwhelmingly positive to those changes because managing people's pride is important even if we wish it wasn't. Human foibles you know, we all get like that.

Makes sense. And It's better to have a next generation creative team honor the past than to just trash it completely (looking at you, Disney!).
My thought during the Duviri thing was that it was designed as a dual expansion/new-player-alternative introduction. So if the new introduction had a built-in Vacuum, then maybe the old introduction would get it as well. But alas...

[Probably_Asleep]

12 hours ago, (PSN)RazorsEdge6267 said:

(also just to correct you mag never got a rework, all her abilities are the same is they did when she was released, it was a revisit which she had with volt some years back)

I halfway agree with you. Mag has always had a form of pull/magnetize/polarize/crush. Apparently though update 18.13 is seen as a shift in Mag's entire play style. (I started playing after that point though so I never got to see the Corpus-Killer Nuke)

You've got a good point calling the update 32 a "revisit." I'm on the fence about Pull's vortex. It is really useful, but I really enjoyed yeeting enemies off the map. But her play style didn't really change all that much. I'd say more so than the changes they made to her, it was the changes they made to armor-stripping that had a larger impact.

[Mag_Gaming]

Yes.

Mag Gaming.

[Famecans]

On 2023-11-13 at 7:53 PM, Drasiel said:

If you were walking towards an item it was impossible to notice the vacuum at that range. I'm actually pretty sure the necramechs have the 3m universal too, but their model is so big you can't tell.

ok probably there is a lot of code spaghetti here, I think the models are bigger to partially correct the game's floating point problems, these problems started to appear after the release of Railjack.

In short, we have some positioning of 3D pieces that don't fit perfectly into the game's three-dimensional space, you can see this in Nagantaka Prime and armor pieces losing their correct positioning with each update.

I understand very little about this subject but perhaps it can be fixed permanently through processor instructions. The DE mentioned last year that it would abandon support for processors with instructions below SSE3, these processor instructions are related to 2d and 3d spatial mathematics which can improve the game's old code.

[Drasiel]

On 2023-11-20 at 10:47 AM, Famecans said:

ok probably there is a lot of code spaghetti here, I think the models are bigger to partially correct the game's floating point problems, these problems started to appear after the release of Railjack.

In short, we have some positioning of 3D pieces that don't fit perfectly into the game's three-dimensional space, you can see this in Nagantaka Prime and armor pieces losing their correct positioning with each update.

I understand very little about this subject but perhaps it can be fixed permanently through processor instructions. The DE mentioned last year that it would abandon support for processors with instructions below SSE3, these processor instructions are related to 2d and 3d spatial mathematics which can improve the game's old code.

Honestly, if you don't assume the worst kind of spaghetti code is at fault there is actually a much simpler and potentially more likely reason the size of the model appears like it affects the radius of vacuum: The measurement is being taken from the centre of the model not the outer edge of the model's hit box. This would guarantee that no matter what model is being used the vacuum range remains mechanically the same. The problem with doing that is that from the end user's point of view they appear to be getting a much smaller effective vacuum range due to the size of the model.

[Probably_Asleep]

19 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Honestly, if you don't assume the worst kind of spaghetti code is at fault there is actually a much simpler and potentially more likely reason the size of the model appears like it affects the radius of vacuum: The measurement is being taken from the centre of the model not the outer edge of the model's hit box. This would guarantee that no matter what model is being used the vacuum range remains mechanically the same. The problem with doing that is that from the end user's point of view they appear to be getting a much smaller effective vacuum range due to the size of the model.

Hildryn: "Why is the universal vacuum so SMALL!?"

Yareli: "Really? I think it's fine."

Hildryn: "...you smol."

Yareli: "何!?"

Grendel: "What are you two talking about?"

Both: "..."

[Drasiel]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Hildryn: "Why is the universal vacuum so SMALL!?"

Yareli: "Really? I think it's fine."

Hildryn: "...you smol."

Yareli: "何!?"

Grendel: "What are you two talking about?"

Both: "..."

LMAO. Highlight of my day so far. 😂

[Qriist]

On 2023-02-23 at 4:13 PM, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

We want Universal Vacuum!

I do not. I've slowly come to the opinion that expanded vacuums are unhealthy for the game.

What I would like to see is the removal of all expanded vacuum mods coupled with enabling party-wide loot pickups (ala railjack). This makes it so people still have pay attention to the game instead of mindlessly blasting AOE through the mission, BUT a given item only has to be picked up once by any player. I think this solves multiple balancing issues at once. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Qriist

[AsffluffyZ]

9 hours ago, Qriist said:

What I would like to see is the removal of all expanded vacuum mods coupled with enabling party-wide loot pickups (ala railjack).

This is also unhealthy for the game because 3 party members can go full afk and still get all the loot from the 4th