Why no hydroid rework?

[Skoomaseller]

31 minutes ago, Zabyr said:

The meaning of the word "Useless" - Not bringing the desired result.

If Hydroid was useless, then it wouldn't be able to do anything. I showed in the article, and in the screenshots, that you are mistaken. The hydroid does its job, and it doesn't take much effort.

  

 

 

semantics. I understand you're not a native english speaker, but you're taking my words a little too literally. Here's another word to describe Hydroid: obsolete.

Okay. Low level farming, sure why not. But who scales harder? Who has an easier time doing endurance runs? Who is easier to build for? Who kills more?

Yeah. 

I'm not trying to crap on you for playing Hydroid, just so we're clear. If you enjoy Hydroid, then good! More power to you. What you like matters more than what's best after all. I mean look, I play Yareli.

[Zabyr]

1 час назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

semantics. I understand you're not a native english speaker, but you're taking my words a little too literally. Here's another word to describe Hydroid: obsolete.

Hmm, I get it...
Google Translate cannot translate your emotions into Russian, like my language it translates into English badly.
I want to be clear, I'm not angry that you write. I'm calm, but I want you and the others to understand that the Hydroid is normal. It doesn't matter if it's outdated or not. They can be played without tension, without any problems, even on the Ordinary Star Map, even on the Steel Path, even in the M33 Galaxy.

 

1 час назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

But who scales harder?

Who scales the most? - I already wrote, Hydroid does not need strength, you have a weapon. Strength is not the main thing, the main thing is that the enemies shoot at you as little as possible, and you can do whatever you want with them.

(Digression: In all games, I play tanks-healers one way or another. Hydroid is the only exception, although I turned him into a tank. But it turned out that control can be more effective and not inferior to tanking and dealing damage.) The main thing is that control is needed so that you and your comrades do not die from crowds of enemies.
You can say as much as you like that damage is the best control, but you can’t keep track of everything and, one way or another, you will get a one-shot in the face, and control very well reduces this possibility. Control + tanking is generally wonderful.

I hope I answered this question for you.

 

1 час назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

Who has an easier time doing endurance runs?

Both.

 

1 час назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

Who is easier to build for?

It is easier to build Hydroid and cheaper to buy Hydroid Prime. Thanks to the efforts of the community, Hydroid Prime is very cheap, which is good for a beginner.
In the article about Hydroid, I wrote everything, who and what knocks out easier. Read it again.
I can only add that even in the store, Khora is more expensive than Hydroid.

 

1 час назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

Who kills more?

Kill more? Khora will kill more to drop resources at its 65% chance. Me (Hydroid) need to kill fewer enemies to get the same amount of resources as her.
I wrote this in the article. Read it again.

 

1 час назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

I'm not trying to crap on you for playing Hydroid, just so we're clear.

1 час назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

I mean look, I play Yareli.

I don't care about that, the main thing is that they don't climb to the Hydroid.
I'm glad you're playing Yareli, honestly.

[Skoomaseller]

16 minutes ago, Zabyr said:

Hmm, I get it...
Google Translate cannot translate your emotions into Russian, like my language it translates into English badly.
I want to be clear, I'm not angry that you write. I'm calm, but I want you and the others to understand that the Hydroid is normal. It doesn't matter if it's outdated or not. They can be played without tension, without any problems, even on the Ordinary Star Map, even on the Steel Path, even in the M33 Galaxy.

I think everyone in this thread knows that Hydroid can be used on the Star Chart – just like any other frame.

The problem is that the investment needed versus output is just pretty bad. His abilities are quite lackluster too.

I'll put it this way: Khora and Hydroid want to walk to a certain destination. Regardless of what they do, they WILL reach their destination. Hydroid needs 5 steps to reach his destination. Khora does it in 1 step.

That's why you've got people like me saying Hydroid is in desperate need of a rework.

He can, in theory, scale infinitely, because from level 1 to 9999, CC will work the same on trash mobs, and you can use your weapons to finish them off. But the same can be said for any other frame with CC, and other frames offer so much more than just CC and disruption. Some offer damage, some offer buffs, tanking, etc. Some a combination of these things. All of which Hydroid lacks.

A frame having a combination of these things is infinitely more useful than one that only offers pure CC, because they can help the team more.

23 minutes ago, Zabyr said:

It is easier to build Hydroid and cheaper to buy Hydroid Prime. Thanks to the efforts of the community, Hydroid Prime is very cheap, which is good for a beginner.

When I say "build for," I mean who is easier to mod for. Khora has no need for strength investment, she just needs range, armor & hp, a melee with a standard light attack combo build, and her augment(s). Boom. CC, tankiness, sustain, damage, and will still be able to use her weapons. Hydroid with the same build will only be able to CC and use his weapons. Even a maximum strength investment will only tickle the tankiest of Grineer. You can armor strip, sure, but Khora doesn't need to do that at all.

Your statement is also false. Right now (as of March 13 3:09am +8 GMT) on warframe.market, Hydroid Prime set is double in price (~100 plat) compared to Khora Prime set (~50 plat). This price fluctuates, depending on who was recently unvaulted.

You are right however that base Hydroid is easier to obtain for newbies. But once they get their hands on Khora (Prime), they have no reason to continue using Hydroid, unless they absolutely love the frame, which I cannot fault anyone for. But speaking from a perspective purely about usefulness, there really isn't a good reason to run Hydroid anymore once you have Khora.

46 minutes ago, Zabyr said:

Kill more? Khora will kill more to drop resources at its 65% chance. Me (Hydroid) need to kill fewer enemies to get the same amount of resources as her.

I wrote this in the article. Read it again.

Can your weapons kill as fast as a 0.25s cast time ability that one-shots everything in a LARGE area, even up to Steel Path? 

Your test is a bit flawed. In the first place you shouldn't have a kill limit – this obviously favours Hydroid, as Pilfering Swarm's drop chance is 100%. A more accurate test would be time limit, and with a proper farming squad (not necessary) with no kill restriction. I have a good feeling that, with proper build, Khora will end up farming more. 

[EinheriarJudith]

15 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

Khora will end up farming more

it just flat out takes less investment for khora to be viable. i run a naramon khora. i dont even use whipclaw augment and i laugh at even archon missions. steel path? no investment needed at all. hydroid on the other hand? pretty ridiculous what hoops you have to jump through to make him even viable on SP.

Edit: not even nova needs the same kind of investment to be viable on SP. can just use Molecular Prime and Proboscis Cernos.

[TKDancer]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:13 PM, Zabyr said:

Because Hydroid is fine.

man's drowning in the copium

[Skoomaseller]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

it just flat out takes less investment for khora to be viable. i run a naramon khora. i dont even use whipclaw augment and i laugh at even archon missions. steel path? no investment needed at all. hydroid on the other hand? pretty ridiculous what hoops you have to jump through to make him even viable on SP.

Edit: not even nova needs the same kind of investment to be viable on SP. can just use Molecular Prime and Proboscis Cernos.

Yup agreed.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

12 hours ago, Zabyr said:

-snip-

You posting those screenshots like you're showing off is only making it look like you don't know how to build.  Especially if you think weapons are going to out-damage khora.  That part is funny enough that I'm wondering if this is just an elaborate troll.

Of the frames that are supposed to kill with abilities, Hydroid isn't even on the list, because his abilities just don't scale well enough.  Of the frames that do crowd control, he's at the bottom of the barrel.  Of the loot frames, he is also the worst, because the tentacles suck at killing things past mid level enemies, and have such awful AI that they barely even attack anything after the first enemy they grab eventually dies.  The enemies they do grab are flailing around, making them hard to kill with weapons, unless you're spamming AOE, which is also going to kill non-grabbed enemies, which doesn't net you extra loot.  

I've got 5 forma on him.  I've tried several builds, both my own and other people's alleged "super good, totally SP quality" builds.  He is so far behind nearly any other frame that it's laughable.  Not good at damage.  Bottom tier for crowd control.  Sucks at tanking, unless you want to count AFKing in his puddle.  And that puddle kills slower than almost anything at high levels.  

Oh, and OP?  The real reason that he hasn't gotten a rework yet is because he's a loot frame.  I'd bet real money that he'll either never get a rework, or if he does get one, it will not be one that makes him better at killing.  DE does not like any decrease in grind.  You can see that by any number of things they do.  Like how few resource booster weekends and booster weekends in general we get now, as opposed to several years ago.

[(PSN)B3ardeDragon311]

12 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

tbh I'd actually say yareli is better than nezha

fun > meta

please watch this video

 

I actually seen this vid. Wade is one of my favorite Warframe tubers he is entertaining

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Hydroid hasn't received an actual rework since his release, and he actually got nerfed even more after the status corrosive rework

Hydroid is quite honestly the worst Warframe in the game, worse than Limbo and Yareli and they keep neglecting him while giving other Warframes cool and intricate reworks and abilities.

he's not only the worst Warframe to date he's the most neglected Warframe by DE surpassing Loki.

I don't get why they do that, Yareli was known as the worst warframe ever released and she got a rework not long after

Grendel was hated by many and he got blessed by Pablo himself

 

what does it take for DE to notice Hydroid? how long will it take? will the game shut down before we get a Hydroid rework? 

[Zabyr]

Sorry for taking so long to answer, translating into languages is difficult. 😔

 

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

The problem is that the investment needed versus output is just pretty bad.

Hydroid does not need much investment. All the mods that I put in the build are not exclusive to Hydroid, with the exception of the "Pilfering Swarm".
Personally, I wanted to make a tank build and I did. Everything else that Hydroid offers can be left as standard and it won't stop you from playing comfortably. You can remove the strenght and make a radius if you go to Defense, Mobile Defense and Excavation.

190% radius and mobs are all mine 😈

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

His abilities are quite lackluster too.

You only have strength on your mind. 

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

I'll put it this way: Khora and Hydroid want to walk to a certain destination. Regardless of what they do, they WILL reach their destination. Hydroid needs 5 steps to reach his destination. Khora does it in 1 step.

Provide examples. I showed you the proofs of my words. Provide and you, otherwise these are empty words.

 

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

When I say "build for," I mean who is easier to mod for. Khora has no need for strength investment, she just needs range, armor & hp, a melee with a standard light attack combo build, and her augment(s). Boom. CC, tankiness, sustain, damage, and will still be able to use her weapons. Hydroid with the same build will only be able to CC and use his weapons. Even a maximum strength investment will only tickle the tankiest of Grineer. You can armor strip, sure, but Khora doesn't need to do that at all.

The hydroid doesn't need strength, I'm telling you again. Zone, armor, health and augments are also needed by the Hydroid. Boom! CC, tankiness, farm, support (augments), damage (177% strength + 60% Arcane Enhancement is enough for you to SP) and you can still use your weapon. No extra measures are needed for him. Stop making up fairy tales already and look soberly.

You and I have different playstyles, different experiences - I get it when people like (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan say they can't play Hydroid. Yes, it happens. But, if it didn’t work out for you, and the other one did it, this does not mean that the Warframe is bad.
I couldn't get Volt to play SP. I do not need other people's builds, I have my own, but even after trying a few, nothing happened. But that doesn't mean the Volt sucks. He, and his gameplay, do not suit me. Hydroid came up, for many reasons, I already wrote this in another topic, far from this one. And I did not tear the veins so that he could lead me through the whole game. If Hydroid doesn't suit you, don't play. 52 Warframes (damn…maybe enough?), there are plenty to choose from..

 

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

You can armor strip, sure, but Khora doesn't need to do that at all.

Why do I need to take off my armor when my weapon kills everyone quickly + tentacles have true damage, ignore armor and shields.

 

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

Your statement is also false. Right now (as of March 13 3:09am +8 GMT) on warframe.market, Hydroid Prime set is double in price (~100 plat) compared to Khora Prime set (~50 plat). This price fluctuates, depending on who was recently unvaulted.

Yes indeed. I haven't looked at prices for a long time, I took it from memory. 😰

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

Can your weapons kill as fast as a 0.25s cast time ability that one-shots everything in a LARGE area, even up to Steel Path? 

Not so fast. In just 1-5 seconds.

 

20 часов назад, Skoomaseller сказал:

Your test is a bit flawed. In the first place you shouldn't have a kill limit – this obviously favours Hydroid, as Pilfering Swarm's drop chance is 100%. A more accurate test would be time limit, and with a proper farming squad (not necessary) with no kill restriction. I have a good feeling that, with proper build, Khora will end up farming more.

Have you read the IBreedBagels article?
I just added that under equal conditions, Hydroid farms better because of his 100% chance than Nekros (54% (82%) and Khora (65%). Khora needs to kill one and a half to two times more mobs than Hydroid. The only way Khora is better than Hydroid is that it produces more Oxium (?).

But, perhaps later, I will supplement it.

 

=========================

19 часов назад, TKDancer сказал:

man's drowning in the copium

 

=========================

14 часов назад, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

You posting those screenshots like you're showing off is only making it look like you don't know how to build.

I'm not boasting, but confirming my words with evidence in the form of screenshots, gifs and videos.

It's called proofpick. Proofpick - is an image that confirms what you have said.

My knowledge is enough for me, don't worry about me.

Skoomaseller talked about control and the whip, I gave him the proof. Previously, when people said something, they provided links to evidence for their words or thoughts. Unfortunately, now society is accustomed to speaking without supporting its words with sources.

Speaking of dying control - 

14 часов назад, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

That part is funny enough that I'm wondering if this is just an elaborate troll.

No.

14 часов назад, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

Of the frames that are supposed to kill with abilities, Hydroid isn't even on the list, because his abilities just don't scale well enough.  Of the frames that do crowd control, he's at the bottom of the barrel.  Of the loot frames, he is also the worst, because the tentacles suck at killing things past mid level enemies, and have such awful AI that they barely even attack anything after the first enemy they grab eventually dies.  The enemies they do grab are flailing around, making them hard to kill with weapons, unless you're spamming AOE, which is also going to kill non-grabbed enemies, which doesn't net you extra loot.

Go read it, I wrote it all. I won't repeat myself.

 

14 часов назад, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

I've got 5 forma on him.  I've tried several builds, both my own and other people's alleged "super good, totally SP quality" builds.  He is so far behind nearly any other frame that it's laughable.  Not good at damage.  Bottom tier for crowd control.  Sucks at tanking, unless you want to count AFKing in his puddle.  And that puddle kills slower than almost anything at high levels.

It's not enough to just insert modifiers and builds from the net, you also need to learn how to play Frame. If you can't play Hydroid, then it doesn't suit you.
I see a lot of people who play on Arbitrage - Cora, Sarina, Rhino, Nidus, Revenant - and they die all the time. When I ask why so, almost all write that they took these Frames, because they are the top, builds also from the network, but they do not know how to play them. Maybe they do not suit them, or they think that took a cool Frame and that's it, all roads are open, but no. This is not how it works, you need to think with your head, or take that Warframe, which suits you.
The Hydroid didn't suit you. The Hydroid suited me and I have no problem with it. To each his own.
"There are no bad Warframes, there are lazy players."

 

15 часов назад, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

never get a rework

It would be nice if it were.

 

 

[TKDancer]

5 hours ago, Zabyr said:

raw unfiltered copium snipped

my man just give up, hydroid is bad, this is the community consensus based on him simply being bad, outdated and power creeped

his passive might as well not exist

his 1 does bad dmg, corrosive status is not reliable post status rework due to 80% cap + having a duration instead of being permanent, if CC is the goal theres also many better options, protea's grenade fan comes to mind as it constantly stuns enemies AND deals constant slash procs so it can scale for longer(specially with her passive) AND can be used to grant everyone super shields, all from just 1 ability.... also why does barrage need to be charged for full effectiveness? blegh

his 2 is a meh movement/grouping skill that does neither very well, a relic of the pre bullet-jump era, but hey at least it cleanses statuses..?

his 3 is the funniest ability in the kit, theoretically infinitely scalng dmg, in the form of a puddle, thrilling gameplay, i really feel like the oceans wrath given form lmao, it also deals impact dmg so its TTK becomes consistently worse vs high level armor so despite being able to do infinite dmg its incredible inefficient at doing so

and his 4 is just bad, tentacles that spawn in grab enemies and flail them around doing negligible non-scaling dmg while having to be charged for full power, being actively detrimental as it makes enemies harder to shoot as the tentacles swing their bodiess around, its only purpose is as a loot ability which requires an aug but a khora does that job better while having a much better overall kit

khora's CC is also superior via either ensnare or strangledome, hell, most grouping abilities are vastly superior to any CC he can provide, many frames have better scaling dmg with more engaging gameplay compared to sitting in a puddle occasionally pressing r2/left click to pull enemies into said puddle + the occasional barrage cast

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

6 hours ago, Zabyr said:

I'm not boasting, but confirming my words with evidence in the form of screenshots, gifs and videos.

I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this, but you've misunderstood my meaning, probably due to English being a second language.  There are plenty of people where English is their only language that don't understand how English works either, so it's no big deal.  I did not actually say that you were boasting.  I said that the way you posted the pictures was done in a manner that felt like you would be trying to boast, or to prove your point, as if you were saying "hah!  Here is my evidence."  The implication there is that I don't see evidence of a good frame, because I know what a good frame can do.  To be direct, the point I was making is that the capability I see in those pics and gifs is not one that I would ever post as evidence, because it's not good.  

For one thing, you have a ton of enemies alive.  That means less enemies dying, less loot dropping, less life support dropping, etc.  Crowd Control is so that you don't die while you're killing the enemies.  I also see tons of enemies running around, outside of your control.  That's because tentacles suck for CC.  9 times out of 10 they go after one enemy, then proceed to uselessly slap the ground, not grabbing anything else.  They're also limited in how many can be grabbed at once.  None of that is good.  For crowd control there are a dozen better frames.  For damage there's any number of frames or weapons that would have wiped that huge stack of enemies off the map, with or without the crowd control.  So, like I was trying to say, all you're demonstrating is that Hydroid is bad.  Like, look at the hilariously low kill speed those tentacles have on just a handful of enemies.  Most of what they've killed have been butchers, which have the lowest armor rating of any grineer unit.

 

7 hours ago, Zabyr said:

I wrote it all. I won't repeat myself.

We're in this thread.  I'm not going to read the opinion fluff piece that you keep pushing that's an entirely separate thread, and I don't need to.  I see what your "evidence" looks like, and it's bad.  And since I will repeat myself, I've tested tons of builds with Hydroid.  He does not have the kill speed or the crowd control to match any other frame.  

Even with the augment, and 200% power strength, each impact of Barrage does less than 1k damage, a corrosive proc or two and a knockdown, in an untargeted pattern in an area of your choosing.  It's extremely inconsistent, low damage, and yet still has to be charged in order to hit those numbers.  Compare that to an ability with a similar effect, Inferno, which does far more damage and is directly targeted, and has a lasting DOT/AOE, and also causes a fire proc that removes a good bit of armor for the same duration.  It is more expensive depending on enemy count, but also does no require charging.  I could take nearly any non-meta crappy auto-rifle and get the exact same effect with more consistency in a shorter time that this ability provides.

Tidal Surge is a crappy movement ability with poor damage with an augment that should be part of the main ability.  I have amps with greater damage potential.  Bullet jumping is more controlled, and unless you've jacked your duration way up, the speed isn't even anything to write home about.  It's themed appropriately, and that's IT.

His puddle is energy hungry if you have a bunch of enemies (which is the only way to stack damage faster), and because it's insanely slow (outside of spending more energy to use Tidal Surge to move around.) and can't pick up drops while you're in it, extremely clunky.  You can't even pick up energy orbs until you come out of it, they just sit there on top of the puddle, crowding the screen.  And even though it's technically scaling damage, it happens so slowly and is in the form of impact damage, that it just cannot kill with any reliable speed at any level.  By the time you've moved close enough to enemies to grab them, they're dead from your team.  It's slow, and only serves as a place people can hide and AFK in.

The tentacles, even in your "proof" pics are super slow at killing and bad at CC.  Look at all those enemies running around loose.  Your pics speak for themselves, just not how you wanted them to.

Literally anything that he does, a bunch of other frames do much better.  Even the niche he fills where he's supposed to have some damage and some CC and some loot bonuses are far, FAR outclassed by Khora.  Khora could have that entire room locked down and dead in seconds.  Meanwhile, you've got a couple enemies CC'd, a couple dead and a bunch running around alive like you've done something amazing.

[Zabyr]

В 14.03.2023 в 03:08, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

For one thing, you have a ton of enemies alive.

Where's the ton? Point your finger, please, where a ton of enemies.

В 14.03.2023 в 03:08, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

I also see tons of enemies running around, outside of your control.  That's because tentacles suck for CC.  9 times out of 10 they go after one enemy, then proceed to uselessly slap the ground, not grabbing anything else. 

Is two or four enemies a lot? From a large crowd of enemies, two-three-four mobs, it's not bad. I have not written anywhere that Hydroid control is the best in the Solar System, but that it is good.
A good one implies that there may be enemies who did not get into the tentacles, who were not touched by the tempest and were not dragged away by the surge.

В 14.03.2023 в 03:08, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

They're also limited in how many can be grabbed at once.

Yes, there are limits, up to 3 enemies, but if a "Tidal Surge" drags it in, it won't be there.

В 14.03.2023 в 03:08, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

Like, look at the hilariously low kill speed those tentacles have on just a handful of enemies.  Most of what they've killed have been butchers, which have the lowest armor rating of any grineer unit.

In fact, the tentacles ignore armor and shields, and the Butcher armor. On the photo and gifs, the strength is reduced to 40%, for the sake of the range. 

В 14.03.2023 в 03:08, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

We're in this thread.  I'm not going to read the opinion fluff piece that you keep pushing that's an entirely separate thread, and I don't need to.  I see what your "evidence" looks like, and it's bad.  And since I will repeat myself, I've tested tons of builds with Hydroid.  He does not have the kill speed or the crowd control to match any other frame.  

Are you suggesting that I rewrite the entire article in a comment, or will it be easier to throw a link? Also, it is directly related to this topic, because it is also about the Hydroid, and explains why he is normal.

 

В 14.03.2023 в 03:08, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan сказал:

Even with the augment, and 200% power strength, each impact of Barrage does less than 1k damage, a corrosive proc or two and a knockdown, in an untargeted pattern in an area of your choosing.  It's extremely inconsistent, low damage, and yet still has to be charged in order to hit those numbers.  Compare that to an ability with a similar effect, Inferno, which does far more damage and is directly targeted, and has a lasting DOT/AOE, and also causes a fire proc that removes a good bit of armor for the same duration.  It is more expensive depending on enemy count, but also does no require charging.  I could take nearly any non-meta crappy auto-rifle and get the exact same effect with more consistency in a shorter time that this ability provides.

Tidal Surge is a crappy movement ability with poor damage with an augment that should be part of the main ability.  I have amps with greater damage potential.  Bullet jumping is more controlled, and unless you've jacked your duration way up, the speed isn't even anything to write home about.  It's themed appropriately, and that's IT.

His puddle is energy hungry if you have a bunch of enemies (which is the only way to stack damage faster), and because it's insanely slow (outside of spending more energy to use Tidal Surge to move around.) and can't pick up drops while you're in it, extremely clunky.  You can't even pick up energy orbs until you come out of it, they just sit there on top of the puddle, crowding the screen.  And even though it's technically scaling damage, it happens so slowly and is in the form of impact damage, that it just cannot kill with any reliable speed at any level.  By the time you've moved close enough to enemies to grab them, they're dead from your team.  It's slow, and only serves as a place people can hide and AFK in.

The tentacles, even in your "proof" pics are super slow at killing and bad at CC.  Look at all those enemies running around loose.  Your pics speak for themselves, just not how you wanted them to.

Literally anything that he does, a bunch of other frames do much better.  Even the niche he fills where he's supposed to have some damage and some CC and some loot bonuses are far, FAR outclassed by Khora.  Khora could have that entire room locked down and dead in seconds.  Meanwhile, you've got a couple enemies CC'd, a couple dead and a bunch running around alive like you've done something amazing.

All this is in the article, the opinion of which you do not care.

I wanted to write a response to your comments, but I didn't. I will write you mine, you will write me yours and there will be no consensus. I'm ready to listen to you, but you obviously don't want to listen to me. I understand that I cannot convince you that the Hydroid is normal, because you are chasing "efficiency", and everything that does not fall into this category is bad.
I'm not chasing "efficiency" like a huge number of "nerds" (in a good way). I don't care if my weapon deals billions of red crit damage in one second. The main thing is that the enemy dies, and how and at what speed, I don't care. I also don't want to wait 100500 hours for the enemy to die, but 5-15 seconds is a normal indicator for me. Hydroid control, of all the Warframes I've tried, is and still is the most fun and convenient, complementing weapon damage.

I will tell you why the Hydroid is not being redone - everything is simple, because there are people like me who: play with a Hydroid every day, going through any missions, of any complexity; they just appreciate and love a Hydroid who gives them pleasure.

You don't understand it, but it's true - the Hydroid is normal, because he can do everything, like everyone else, without any difficulties. All the "difficulties" are in your head or the Hydroid just doesn't suit you.

I'm not the best example, in your opinion, but there are a lot of people on the web who shoot videos about a Hydroid and kill crowds of enemies very quickly. Hydroid can be effective, you just don't want to notice it.

 

[EinheriarJudith]

@Zabyr sorry you invalidated any arguments you have with that last video. you subsumed in breach surge. khora literally doesn't have to subsume ANY abilities for viability.

you've once again proved that hydroid needs a rework.

[Zabyr]

1 час назад, EinheriarJudith сказал:

@Zabyr sorry you invalidated any arguments you have with that last video. you subsumed in breach surge. khora literally doesn't have to subsume ANY abilities for viability.

you've once again proved that hydroid needs a rework.

What difference does it make where the abilities come from? They are there, and their use is included in the build. Helminth is the same modification as Arcanes and Mods.
According to this logic, if the Rhino's "Roar" is constantly put on the Visp (to strengthen the "Reservoirs"), then it's time to rework the Visp.
Well, then, if Sarina (instead of "Molt") and Nekros put "Gloom", then it's time for Saryn and Nekros to rework.
Why are there Saryn and Nekros, everyone who puts Mods and Mystifiers should go to the dump - if a Warframe without mods and mystifiers at lvl 9999 cannot stand (without an Operator), then it is bad. So?

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

3 hours ago, Zabyr said:

Where's the ton? Point your finger, please, where a ton of enemies.

You're either blind or playing dumb.  I can see your minimap, dude.  There's a huge amount of enemies running around.

 

3 hours ago, Zabyr said:

In fact, the tentacles ignore armor and shields

Yes, I am aware that there is a very pitiful amount of True type damage to go along with the magnetic damage.  But it is only that damage that ignores shields, armor and DR.  And it's pitiful.

 

22 minutes ago, Zabyr said:

What difference does it make where the abilities come from?

Maybe you're not playing.  You're arguing that Hydroid is a good frame while needing another frame's ability to do anything worthwhile.  "Hydroid doesn't need a rework because other frames exist."  Got it.  

[quxier]

On 3/11/2023 at 1:08 PM, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Yes, De, why?

After recent "anti horny" topics it gets different meaning.

On 3/11/2023 at 4:28 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

3. Screw the fans. If the frame sucks it deserves to be made good. So what if 2% of the players whine about it.

Why not both? Please the fans AND new players? Like for example Xaku's Grasp of lohk. They make 4th stop time for Grasp of Lohk to hold guns (which is good) but they may make him recast/disarm enemies even for full guns.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Please the fans AND new players?

That's just it.  It's entirely possible to make his kit function very similarly as it is now, while also not being laughably bad. 

• Put straight defense strip on the 1, remove the charge function, make it work as if it's always charged, leave the rest alone.  Make the augment spit out random status procs on every hit.  Now it's strong utility that calls back to its current function, and can be used as a wide range primer.  
• Make his 2 part of his 3, with a tap/hold function, since they're intertwined anyway.  Replace his 2 with a timed squad buff that increases multishot, sticking with the pirate theme and pirates carrying a brace of pistols.  Thematic, useful.  Buffs allies that know the frame well enough to shoot into it while there's enemies inside.
• Increase the damage numbers on his 3.  The puddle is only useful for AFKing right now.  Using the grab function should send tentacles out to grab anything within range and LOS.  With his 1 and the added mobility of putting surge in with puddle, He'd end up being one of the best point defense frames in the game, like he used to be.  Everything is castable from puddle, with the same benefits and synergies that are currently there.
• Level scaled damage on the tentacles, for the True damage portion.  Better AI so that they reliably grab a new enemy after the first one dies, and don't flail around uselessly.

Same basic kit.  Competes with other point defense frames, rather than lagging behind them.

[quxier]

45 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Make his 2 part of his 3, with a tap/hold function, since they're intertwined anyway. 

You could just join 2+3 with just "on tap". When in ability, frame is underwater getting enemies udner water. Tap roll to do current 2nd. Jump or tap ability key again to deactivate.

You would need to change "energy spent per meter traveled" because it's horrible. It is even worse than old Grendel. Put Lavos' Vial rush and see how much energy it takes. Change it to something like "energy spent per enemy" but capped at e.g 10 or 20 like Sevagoth/Gloom.

50 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

 

• Put straight defense strip on the 1, remove the charge function, make it work as if it's always charged, leave the rest alone.  Make the augment spit out random status procs on every hit.  Now it's strong utility that calls back to its current function, and can be used as a wide range primer.  

IMHO, you don't need to remove tap/hold function. Tap function could be quick, instant but short defense strip. Hold could have long duration but you need to charge it.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

You could just join 2+3 with just "on tap". When in ability, frame is underwater getting enemies udner water. Tap roll to do current 2nd. Jump or tap ability key again to deactivate.

yes this is ok too.

 

1 hour ago, quxier said:

IMHO, you don't need to remove tap/hold function. Tap function could be quick, instant but short defense strip. Hold could have long duration but you need to charge it.

there is no reason for this. this is just repeating the same problem it currently has. charge should be removed from both 1 and 4.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

12 hours ago, quxier said:

After recent "anti horny" topics it gets different meaning.

Why not both? Please the fans AND new players? Like for example Xaku's Grasp of lohk. They make 4th stop time for Grasp of Lohk to hold guns (which is good) but they may make him recast/disarm enemies even for full guns.

I think the original intention of Grasp of Lohk was to have it be something you keep recasting to keep up the duration. And honestly, that’s a much better design than having it lean on the 4’s duration pause.

[quxier]

15 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

IMHO, you don't need to remove tap/hold function. Tap function could be quick, instant but short defense strip. Hold could have long duration but you need to charge it.

there is no reason for this. this is just repeating the same problem it currently has. charge should be removed from both 1 and 4.

Not exactly. Current version has just longer duration.

7 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

After recent "anti horny" topics it gets different meaning.

Why not both? Please the fans AND new players? Like for example Xaku's Grasp of lohk. They make 4th stop time for Grasp of Lohk to hold guns (which is good) but they may make him recast/disarm enemies even for full guns.

I think the original intention of Grasp of Lohk was to have it be something you keep recasting to keep up the duration.

Whatever intention was, letting it disarm enemies wouldn't cause problems. They could even cap it at e.g. 5 enemies if they didn't want to make it like Loki's.

Blocking such new feature like Xaku or Styanax (blocked casting of abilities during 4th, recasting 4th) makes it just worse for the sake of it. For example I don't remember good reason for Styanax' nerfs.

[TKDancer]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

For example I don't remember good reason for Styanax' nerfs.

as far as i know the casting mid javelin barrage thing was simply unintended, ergo animations breaking

so it was less a nerf and more a bug fix, that made him weaker nonetheless

should just leaned into it imo

[quxier]

30 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

For example I don't remember good reason for Styanax' nerfs.

as far as i know the casting mid javelin barrage thing was simply unintended, ergo animations breaking

As fair I remember it was to prevent casting repeatably Javelins (4th) and staying in the air for infinity.

[TKDancer]

17 minutes ago, quxier said:

As fair I remember it was to prevent casting repeatably Javelins (4th) and staying in the air for infinity.

oh that, yeah that was a direct nerf, cant stay in the air forever! anyways pls ignore zephyr, ivara, titania...