This gameplay shown by Pablo doesn’t get me excited.

[Felsagger]

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Why is a single-player, one-time-through AAA game relevant to the conversation?

First, Is it one time through? Have you played the game? NO. Buy and play the game. Don't talk about things you do NOT KNOW. 

Second, DE will be measured as an AAA developer from now on. They have 416 employees. 

Third, we are talking about current year standards. I don't expect less from DE. 

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Oh, ok, so you must have some evidence to back up that claim, right? You know, like how I cited publicly available data!

No?

And said publicly available data would also have shown that exact claim and doesn't. 

Fascinating.

Yes, this video. 

There is your evidence about the people who played Railjack at that time. 

Ok next. 

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And what about the features that they added? And all those features that are literally what you're complaining about. i.e. slow gameplay where you can't use your Warframes (specifically the first showcase where some poor guy had to sit on the Railjack to hack doors for the people actually playing the game). Or the fact that you could get trolled by anyone just deciding to turn off the engines for the lulz! 

Which features? Where is this evidence? Which features I am complaining about? Do you know what is a complaint in the first place? 

Again if you do not show evidence I can't talk about your argument. You need to be SPECIFIC. 

 

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Yeah it sucks we don't get picked up from the planets. But that would have been a gimmick at best, and saying its a 'simple' feature is probably underselling the actual work it'd take. Or maybe not. Who knows.

Thank you for proving my point. 

Moving on. 

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Also, 2017 was A: six years ago (and Tennocon 2017 was closer to 5_1/2 or 5_3/4), and B: not when Railjack was revealed. That was when Plains of Eidolon was revealed. 

And so the Railjack was there. Do you want me to quote such video? 

21:27, there. 

Moving on. 

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Doesn't magically make it relevant to the discussion.

But it does and you have to deal with it. You do not decide what is relevant or not. You do not dictate in what order topics should be discussed either. 

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Again, it's a single-player RPG with vastly more dev time. Forbidden West was released a year ago, and Burning Shores would have been in development alongside the main game (because that's how companies work). And that's what Guerilla was working on exclusively (With a partial exception for that VR game, but that's co-developed with another studio that probably did all the actual VR stuff since it's a VR studio) for six years. For those same six years, DE released mountains of constant content.

How much time DE had for Duviri? FIVE YEARS. 

How much time Guerrilla Games for the development of Horizon Burning Shores had? Almost a year and a half roughly speaking since the game was released in February 18, 2022 with other MULTIPLE projects as you mentioned above. 

The amount of content and size that Guerrilla games Released in Burning Shores is MONUMENTAL, PARAMOUNT, EVEN BIBLICAL in proportion to few warframe and some chapters in DE's game. Guerrilla Games releases a MOVIE for a game with a MOVIE OPEN WORLD size DLC for the game. 

As I said, it's even unfair to compare the sheer size of Warframe to THE BIBLICAL size of Horizon Zero franchise content. 

48 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's also able to run on a comparatively up-to-date engine (rather than the constantly-modified 15 year old evolution engine Warframe runs on), doesn't need to run on servers, is being built specifically for one platform that's been out long enough that the devs know exactly what they can get away with and has one of the biggest game companies able to pour money into it. Yeah DE has Tencent, but here's the thing - companies like Tencent don't buy small studios that already have a game like this running to put large amounts of of money in. They do it to get cheap money out because whatever DE sold for is much less than however much money they poured in to make and run Warframe for the years up to where it sold.

In short, this is a supremely false comparison.

Thank you for proving my point. You saved me all that typing. 

 

Conclusión: DE MUST UP THEIR GAME. 

I will have ZERO mercy comparing them to other AAA studio games out there. They are an AAA size industry. They have Epic and they have the Unreal Engine. 

Why I do this? Well, I'm optimistic. DE can. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

The more you describe Forbidden West, the more I dislike it... (plus I despise bows in all games I've ever played.)

I also play games MUCH differently from you, I guess... I over-level in turn based RPGs... (I got my entire team in Final Fantasy, the first one, to level 10, BEFORE facing Garland...) I like to equip my teams with gear that absorbs or nullfies the majority of enemy attacks. I like auto-regen and auto-haste and such in games like FF9...

However, I also have played games like Hollow Knight (I think I'm at 102% right now, which means, yes, I went through the palace of buzzsaws...) so I'm not entirely averse to challenge, and I'm a capable player. I just don't enjoy that type of gameplay regularly. It's not "fun" so much as something I can set as a personal goal to overcome. I rarely feel the need to do such things in videogames.

I don't think games should punish players for trying new things or failing at a task. Death penalties are just not fun in games that have those. They encourage safe gameplay that doesn't take risks, and the following of guides and metas with less chance of failure... the opposite of encouraging creativity and ingenuity.

Growing up, I think playing video games increased my reasoning and logic and helped me become a smarter and creative individual.

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

The more you describe Forbidden West, the more I dislike it... (plus I despise bows in all games I've ever played.)

Let me NOT describe it. Let me SHOW IT TO YOU. 

SPOILERS ahead. 

There. Part two and part three will be available tomorrow. Enjoy. :D

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I also play games MUCH differently from you, I guess... I over-level in turn based RPGs... (I got my entire team in Final Fantasy, the first one, to level 10, BEFORE facing Garland...) I like to equip my teams with gear that absorbs or nullfies the majority of enemy attacks. I like auto-regen and auto-haste and such in games like FF9...

Those are your likes. I can't say anything about those. I don't play them. They are not my interest. 

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

 

I don't think games should punish players for trying new things or failing at a task. Death penalties are just not fun in games that have those. They encourage safe gameplay that doesn't take risks, and the following of guides and metas with less chance of failure... the opposite of encouraging creativity and ingenuity.

But they are. Why? Immersion. If the player is not careful he gets his butt served. In life and in Chess is the same. One false move, the game is over. If you do not enjoy that type of game play then you can surely continue enjoying Warframe or any other game you like. 

That's fair. The choice is yours. 

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Growing up, I think playing video games increased my reasoning and logic and helped me become a smarter and creative individual.

Video games can be a destructive addiction of the worst kind. People throw away their lives due to NON PRODUCTIVE HOURS playing video games. 

Moderation IS the key on everything. 

[Felsagger]

This conversation is getting DEEPLY interesting. I can't wait for the next posts. 

While we are at it. LET US REVIEW our SUBJECT again. Duviri

it is safe to say that we can compare Duviri with Burning Shores. It is a SAFE COMPARISON. Both maps has similar sizes. Right or wrong? hmm. And that doesn't look bad at all. Those are fairly good graphics. 

:D

 

 

 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

9 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

snip

I don't intend to watch any more videos on that game. It doesn't interest me in the slightest. Your comments more and more seem to be contrarian just to be contrarian. I do not enjoy this back and forth, and simply wanted to put forth my stance on why the Duviri gameplay we've been shown does not get me excited... I have no interest in convincing you to play games like me, or like the same things from games... I don't see the point of most of your posts, in this regard.

In my opinion, Warframe's competition doesn't include Forbidden West games... or any single player games. Warframe's competition are free to play games, and to a lesser extent, Destiny. I don't see why that's been included in this discussion about Duviri gameplay. Duviri is direct competition to Warframe's own gameplay outside of Duviri.

 

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I don't intend to watch any more videos on that game. It doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Then you don't play the game. It's a choice you have. I am not forcing you to do it. I'm simply showing it to you. 

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Your comments more and more seem to be contrarian just to be contrarian.

That's your perception, which is fine. You have your choices and your vision about what you think. You have every right to express what you think. You can say that Horizon sucks and all of that. It's your freedom. I can't tell you what you should do with your freedom and your time.  

 

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I do not enjoy this back and forth, and simply wanted to put forth my stance on why the Duviri gameplay we've been shown does not get me excited... I have no interest in convincing you to play games like me, or like the same things from games... I don't see the point of most of your posts, in this regard.

The point is very simple. If you read you would know what I am trying to say. 

I'll make it easy for you. DE is a company that is highly competitive in the market right now. They have resources, they have the people and they have the skill. I am simply expecting more from them. 

Being a conformist is what destroys this industry. We as individual should demand a bit more and not be feed with just what any developer throws at us. It is basically a critical mind about the subjects we like and the things we do. 

I don't force you to have a critical mind. You have again that choice. 

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

In my opinion, Warframe's competition doesn't include Forbidden West games... or any single player games.

Yes, in your opinion. Again, that's perfectly fine. 

But in this world Horizon Forbidden West Burning Shores happened. I can ignore the Empire State Building or any other Museum like Louvre in France and such. Ignoring them is my choice but they exist and are there. I have to deal with them, right? 

 

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Warframe's competition are free to play games, and to a lesser extent, Destiny. I don't see why that's been included in this discussion about Duviri gameplay. Duviri is direct competition to Warframe's own gameplay outside of Duviri.

Destiny is a entirely different game. That's an FPS/action game. That's why I do not use such comparison. If you don't see why Horizon Zero is included, that's fine. I do. You are free to chose your comparisons so do I. 

 

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

First, Is it one time through? Have you played the game? NO. Buy and play the game. Don't talk about things you do NOT KNOW. 

Second, DE will be measured as an AAA developer from now on. They have 416 employees. 

Third, we are talking about current year standards. I don't expect less from DE. 

Why would I play the sequel to a game that didn't hold my attention long enough to finish it?

Horizon Zero Dawn was good, but not some excellent pinnacle of gameplay and story, at least for my tastes. Gathering was dull, combat got super repetitive with how few weapons there were and in how you'd fight any given machine. Fighting a new enemy was fun the first time, but it got too paint-by-numbers before long. 

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Yes, this video. 

There is your evidence about the people who played Railjack at that time. 

Ok next. 

No, that's public mockery, not evidence that a large number of people left the game. THESE players left the game, don't get me wrong, or at least they don't make content for the game anymore, but that's, what, four people if I'm being generous? That's not a 'Mass Exodus'. For evidence of that you need to provide evidence that Warframe's player count dropped substantially and stayed dropped. And I have already provided proof to the contrary.

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Which features? Where is this evidence? Which features I am complaining about? Do you know what is a complaint in the first place? 

Again if you do not show evidence I can't talk about your argument. You need to be SPECIFIC. 

You are one to talk about not showing evidence, but I would remind you that Archwing slingshot, Necramech implementation and hijacking crewships didn't appear until 2019, not in the original showcase. In fact, pretty much everything that hasn't shown up in said showcase has been intentionally cut, with the note that it wasn't fun. I mean. It's literally just them flying forwards for five minutes, shooting like 5 basic enemies that spawn on board and then they immediately drop into a 2013-era mission type in that original reveal. Was such a fun proof-of-concept, but that's all it was, a proof-of-concept.

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Thank you for proving my point. 

Moving on. 

Man those cherries you're picking sure do look tasty.

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

And so the Railjack was there. Do you want me to quote such video?

21:27, there. 

Moving on. 

You can't be serious.

Reread the title of that video you are oh so proudly posting as if it proves your point somehow. Specifically the part where it reads '2018' As in. This was released in 2018. Not 2017.

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

How much time DE had for Duviri? FIVE YEARS. 

How much time Guerrilla Games for the development of Horizon Burning Shores had? Almost a year and a half roughly speaking since the game was released in February 18, 2022 with other MULTIPLE projects as you mentioned above. 

The amount of content and size that Guerrilla games Released in Burning Shores is MONUMENTAL, PARAMOUNT, EVEN BIBLICAL in proportion to few warframe and some chapters in DE's game. Guerrilla Games releases a MOVIE for a game with a MOVIE OPEN WORLD size DLC for the game. 

As I said, it's even unfair to compare the sheer size of Warframe to THE BIBLICAL size of Horizon Zero franchise content. 

...My friend, perhaps you need to have your reading comprehension tested as that is literally the opposite of what I said. Guerrilla were making one project fully and co-developing another (which again, the actual game development part was likely handled by the studio that, y'know, makes VR games), and then made Burning Shores with the leftovers because that's how DLC expansions are made in the industry. Not throwing shade there, that's just economical.

DE, on the other hand, are the ones who've been releasing dozens of other projects. For reference, the update they were at when Zero Dawn came out was Banshee Prime. If we're just counting mainline updates (not events, prime releases, Tenno Reinforcements, mind you just mainline, named updates), they released Octavias Anthem, Chains of Harrow, the Plains of Eidolon, Apostasy Prologue, Shrine of the Eidolon, Beasts of the Sanctuary, The Sacrifice, Mask of the Revenant, Chimera Prologue, Fortuna, Profit-Taker/Buried Debts, Remastered the Plains, Jovian Concord, Saint of Altra, The Old Blood, Railjack, The Deadlock Protocol, The Steel Path, Heart of Deimos, Deimos Arcana, Call of the Tempestarii, Sisters of Parvos, The New War and just about squeezed in Echoes of War just a few days before Forbidden West released. Twenty Four Projects. 

Of course, all those updates were smaller, and less technically polished. Because shockingly, the amount of polish and size you can make when you're releasing a project roughly every two and a half months is not the same as a project every five years.

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Conclusión: DE MUST UP THEIR GAME. 

I mean if you're willing to wait 5 years between Updates. I'm not.

[Felsagger]

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Why would I play the sequel to a game that didn't hold my attention long enough to finish it?

You don't have to. You don't need to play video game at all. There are far better Bethe Ansatz out there like Chess. You don't have to play those either. 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Horizon Zero Dawn was good, but not some excellent pinnacle of gameplay and story, at least for my tastes. Gathering was dull, combat got super repetitive with how few weapons there were and in how you'd fight any given machine. Fighting a new enemy was fun the first time, but it got too paint-by-numbers before long. 

That is your opinion. It's perfectly fine. Objectively speaking, the game is a pinnacle of game play and THE STORY. That is one of the strongest point in it. Again this is your opinion on the game and what you think of it. You don't have to like it, you don't have to play it either. 

I do think that Warframe iis a good game too but not at the level of Horizon Zero Forbidden West, Horizon Zero Dawn, Frozen Wild, Burning Shores. Yes each story has the respective time and place. The narrative is different but objectively speaking it is unfair to compare the juggernaut of Horizon Zero with the flea market of Warframe. 

Horizon Zero are light years ahead of Warframe on EVERYTHING in terms of game design, architecture, production, programming, acting, 3D modeling, game play mechanics, illumination, physics destructibility among many other things like item management and micromanagement. 

Well, warframe does few things right and has merits on it, I recognize those merits but DE is NOT at the level of Guerrilla Games. Can they be there? Probably yes but right now, nowhere near. Remember we are speaking about game architecture and product design. 

If you don't find Horizon entertaining, that is perfectly fair. I simply give value where is due. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No, that's public mockery, not evidence that a large number of people left the game.

False

There is evidence there in the video showing the amount of people. Look deeper. Stop the video and see the evidence. The theatrical presentation is for entertainment but that is a clean critique about Rail Jack launch. 

That video is based on facts. Ever heard of that word? 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

THESE players left the game, don't get me wrong, or at least they don't make content for the game anymore, but that's, what, four people if I'm being generous? That's not a 'Mass Exodus'. For evidence of that you need to provide evidence that Warframe's player count dropped substantially and stayed dropped. And I have already provided proof to the contrary.

False. 

You never provided links or evidence in this thread. You only provided your word. Your word is of no use. in here. Evidence can be discussed and interpreted. You haven't brought anything to the table. If you want to discuss a formal subject, you must provide evidence for the discussion of the subject. These are basic posting skills that everyone knows. If you are interested in a discussion provide the evidence instead of your word. 

 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You are one to talk about not showing evidence, but I would remind you that Archwing slingshot, Necramech implementation and hijacking crewships didn't appear until 2019, not in the original showcase. In fact, pretty much everything that hasn't shown up in said showcase has been intentionally cut, with the note that it wasn't fun. I mean. It's literally just them flying forwards for five minutes, shooting like 5 basic enemies that spawn on board and then they immediately drop into a 2013-era mission type in that original reveal. Was such a fun proof-of-concept, but that's all it was, a proof-of-concept.

False. 

I provide links, videos, information when necessary. Review your posting skills. As a reminder, it is preferable to post links of what you are saying doing lists, examples by comparison, videos, statistics, quotes or any other academic material at your disposal. 

Glitches that happened during RJ launch that made it unplayable. 

1. Archwing glitches. 

2. Archwing weapons clipping. 

3. Black out screen when mounting the turrets in the railjack. 

4. Constant disconnections. 

5. Random mission fails. 

6. Camera wobbling shown in the video in RJ. 

7. RJ slingshot not working properly or not working at all. 

Evidence my brother, Evidence. 

Rail Jack Patch history. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Railjack/Patch_History

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Man those cherries you're picking sure do look tasty.

You are the one facilitating the argument for me while you shoot yourself in the foot. 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You can't be serious.

Reread the title of that video you are oh so proudly posting as if it proves your point somehow. Specifically the part where it reads '2018' As in. This was released in 2018. Not 2017.

I am serious. Proof of concept 2017. Showcase video 2018. I always come prepared. 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

...My friend, perhaps you need to have your reading comprehension tested as that is literally the opposite of what I said.

I deliberately disregarded that part of your post, there was no evidence to back that up. It has nothing to do with my reading comprehension skills. They work perfectly fine. 

Don't worry about my reading skills. Worry about your posting habits. 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Guerrilla were making one project fully and co-developing another (which again, the actual game development part was likely handled by the studio that, y'know, makes VR games), and then made Burning Shores with the leftovers because that's how DLC expansions are made in the industry. Not throwing shade there, that's just economical.

You are NOT throwing shade. That's how the economy works on these studios. But you do not know what other projects are running at Guerrilla Games studio. Remember SIE studios works in a different way than any other developers. You should do your research on such topics. 

Guerrilla Games is working in a MULTI PLAYER for Horizon Zero.

https://www.destructoid.com/guerrilla-is-officially-working-on-a-horizon-multiplayer-project/

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

DE, on the other hand, are the ones who've been releasing dozens of other projects.

And those project are? Wait....Soulframe? The beta testing that we are about to do in Duviri? Oh of course. 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

For reference, the update they were at when Zero Dawn came out was Banshee Prime. If we're just counting mainline updates (not events, prime releases, Tenno Reinforcements, mind you just mainline, named updates), they released Octavias Anthem, Chains of Harrow, the Plains of Eidolon, Apostasy Prologue, Shrine of the Eidolon, Beasts of the Sanctuary, The Sacrifice, Mask of the Revenant, Chimera Prologue, Fortuna, Profit-Taker/Buried Debts, Remastered the Plains, Jovian Concord, Saint of Altra, The Old Blood, Railjack, The Deadlock Protocol, The Steel Path, Heart of Deimos, Deimos Arcana, Call of the Tempestarii, Sisters of Parvos, The New War and just about squeezed in Echoes of War just a few days before Forbidden West released. Twenty Four Projects. 

The amount of content in Horizon Burning Shores, AN EXPANSION DLC goes over the amount of all of those contents all together in terms of complexity, time duration, replay value, acting, 3D modeling among many other assets. 

Since I don't want to spoil anything. I will leave you with this comparison. 

Compare Horus Fight with Profit taker fight doing a solo. The amount of content on that fight in Horizon Burning shores is JUST RIDICULOUSLY too much. I saw the whole boss fight. As I said, it's unfair to compare Warframe bosses with Horizon Zero Bosses. Horizon Zero bosses are on another level. 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Of course, all those updates were smaller, and less technically polished. Because shockingly, the amount of polish and size you can make when you're releasing a project roughly every two and a half months is not the same as a project every five years.

In other words you can't compare the amount of assets of Warframe with the amount of assets of Horizon Zero Forbidden West. If we do scale comparisons we are comparing Duviry with Burning Shores. 

In all honesty that is entirely unfair for DE but I'll DO the comparison anyway. 

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I mean if you're willing to wait 5 years between Updates. I'm not.

I waited for a great game in Horizon Forbidden West and got what I wanted. I waited for Burning Shores amd I'm sure I'll get what I want. I already saw many videos. It is exactly what I was waiting for and much more. 

Can you say the same for RJ? No. 

Fine, next. 

[MqToasty]

7 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I don't intend to watch any more videos on that game. It doesn't interest me in the slightest. Your comments more and more seem to be contrarian just to be contrarian. I do not enjoy this back and forth, and simply wanted to put forth my stance on why the Duviri gameplay we've been shown does not get me excited... I have no interest in convincing you to play games like me, or like the same things from games... I don't see the point of most of your posts, in this regard.

In my opinion, Warframe's competition doesn't include Forbidden West games... or any single player games. Warframe's competition are free to play games, and to a lesser extent, Destiny. I don't see why that's been included in this discussion about Duviri gameplay. Duviri is direct competition to Warframe's own gameplay outside of Duviri.

 

There are some users who either get a kick off of trolling on the forums, or simply have an axe to grind and do not mind wasting their own time just to sow discord here.  That user is a prime example of someone who is neither honest nor earnest in their posts, and ignoring them was one of the best choices I made here.

[Felsagger]

19 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

That user is a prime example of someone who is neither honest nor earnest in their posts, and ignoring them was one of the best choices I made here.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Just so you understand, and know that I do not intend to debate this as it is opinion: the reasons your posts fall flat as reasonable argument on these points, from my point of view, are numerous:

* because you put these Horizon games on some sort of pedestal that you think Warframe cannot compare to. On the other hand, I find the Horizon games completely disinteresting, and Warframe is far above any of those entries. The things you highly praise about it... don't impress me one bit.

* You choose to hold up Railjack as some sort of indictment of failure on DE's part. I understand that many features in the original reveal have never been made reality in-game. Some of that original reveal were just works in the concept stages. They hadn't even begun internal playtesting. It was a proof of concept and more of a pitch or tease of their vision. Once they did internal iterations, they said on dev streams that the things they cut were cut because they didn't fit the flow of the mode... such as altering the flow of power from engines to weapons. Some things they TRIED to implement, but the infrastructure of the game didn't serve it well... Scarlet Spear was the attempt at Squad Link... and despite how fun my friends and I found that mode, the bugs and complaints from a large section of players made them stop developing it. (Scott seemed hurt on the dev streams regarding that outcome, and had a lack of desire to get anywhere near that code in the future.) I personally still want to see the Railjack hacking enemy ship systems to aid the raiding party.

One problem with Railjack overall, was that the original release relied much on a person having a group of 3 other friends they could reliably team up with and communicate with effectively to achieve success, and it was not at all conducive to random groups.... much because you couldn't ensure that the pilot had their own ship, or even that you weren't grouped with multiple people who wanted to all be pilots. And then you had resource usage, such as ammo and such being wasted by party members on the gunnery stations... the ship owner had no control of their own ship. HOWEVER, instead of addressing these things and iterating on the concept further, they allowed the backlash and user feedback to simply force them to rework it into what we have now, and then abandoned it, essentially cutting their losses. (and Steve went on to Soulframe... Railjack was his baby.)

* You choose to compare a single player Buy-to-play game to an ongoing game-as-a-service... No single player game can compare with Warframe in the categories that convince me to play Warframe. It's just impossible, due to fundamental game concepts... such as (but not limited to) frequent content updates, new areas, new weapons, new characters, new things to do, new story, all provided for free. Single player games generally have good polish and a complete story... though this trend is lessened over the years, with more patches and bug fix releases, along with extra paid DLC being released after launch... which has been a trend I HIGHLY dislike.

Anyway, I'm heading to work now... or I'd expand on a few of those points and add others...

[Circle_of_Psi]

12 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Well tomorrow I'll get busy playing Burning Shores. I'll tell you about it on PMs. I don't want to spoil it here. 

I look forward to it, I don't own (or will ever) own a PS5, but I do have a PS4, but I barely used it for years, so feel free to tell me all about it, Story and all that 

[Felsagger]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Just so you understand, and know that I do not intend to debate this as it is opinion: the reasons your posts fall flat as reasonable argument on these points, from my point of view, are numerous:

Debate is always healthy. I do not find offensive if someone point out that I am wrong or if I miscalculated. In mathematics, physics and architecture we must amend our own mistakes and correct them. Education is this. 

I came here to simply put things into perspective. You are free to state your opinion. 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

* because you put these Horizon games on some sort of pedestal that you think Warframe cannot compare to. On the other hand, I find the Horizon games completely disinteresting, and Warframe is far above any of those entries. The things you highly praise about it... don't impress me one bit.

Correct. The quality of Horizon Zero is out of this world. It is not comparable. Horizon Zero Dawn is on another League, entirely. 

Proof: Let us compare Profit Taker, a spider and Horus, well another spider of a considerable size, Horus. 

Profit taker:

Horus boss fight Horizon Zero Dawn. (DO NOT OPEN THE VIDEO SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO PURCHASE the game) 

CASE closed. 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

* You choose to hold up Railjack as some sort of indictment of failure on DE's part.

DE made their own history. I don't need to accuse them of anything. Up to this date Railjack continues being updated due to the plethora of bugs that still exists in the game mode. Look the amount of patch fixes. 

Proof:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Railjack/Patch_History

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I understand that many features in the original reveal have never been made reality in-game. Some of that original reveal were just works in the concept stages. They hadn't even begun internal playtesting. It was a proof of concept and more of a pitch or tease of their vision. Once they did internal iterations, they said on dev streams that the things they cut were cut because they didn't fit the flow of the mode...

Then DE should not show it in an advertisement. 

Guerrilla games don't show anything until release. They are HONEST with what they disclose in public. What you see is what you get with Guerrilla Games. 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

such as altering the flow of power from engines to weapons. Some things they TRIED to implement, but the infrastructure of the game didn't serve it well... Scarlet Spear was the attempt at Squad Link... and despite how fun my friends and I found that mode, the bugs and complaints from a large section of players made them stop developing it. (Scott seemed hurt on the dev streams regarding that outcome, and had a lack of desire to get anywhere near that code in the future.) I personally still want to see the Railjack hacking enemy ship systems to aid the raiding party.

 

DE team must explore first what is possible and what is impossible without promising pies in the sky to tease an idea. Credibility matters. If the team can't achieve a goal then don't show it to the public or flaunt about it in a demo simulation. They should play test first and THEN SHOW that feature to the public when is ready and ATTAINABLE. 

DE had a lot of successes too. They exist and these successes helps build up credibility with the clients and the developer. The best strategy is to show up things that are attainable without SPECULATION. 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

One problem with Railjack overall, was that the original release relied much on a person having a group of 3 other friends they could reliably team up with and communicate with effectively to achieve success, and it was not at all conducive to random groups.... much because you couldn't ensure that the pilot had their own ship, or even that you weren't grouped with multiple people who wanted to all be pilots. And then you had resource usage, such as ammo and such being wasted by party members on the gunnery stations... the ship owner had no control of their own ship. HOWEVER, instead of addressing these things and iterating on the concept further, they allowed the backlash and user feedback to simply force them to rework it into what we have now, and then abandoned it, essentially cutting their losses. (and Steve went on to Soulframe... Railjack was his baby.)

 In theory Rail Jack is an interesting concept but in execution that project needs a lot of work many features are missing if we consider the simulation that DE showed in such Tennocon. 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

* You choose to compare a single player Buy-to-play game to an ongoing game-as-a-service...

AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. 

Unreal Engine 5 exists. DE can ramp up their graphic quality standards. 

Both mediums are different in scope but that doesn't excuse DE to improve their graphics standards. 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

No single player game can compare with Warframe in the categories that convince me to play Warframe. It's just impossible, due to fundamental game concepts... such as (but not limited to) frequent content updates, new areas, new weapons, new characters, new things to do, new story, all provided for free. Single player games generally have good polish and a complete story... though this trend is lessened over the years, with more patches and bug fix releases, along with extra paid DLC being released after launch... which has been a trend I HIGHLY dislike.

There are lots of melee weapon with redundancy. (Repeated weapons with almost no significant difference)

There are a lot of primaries with redundancy. 

There are a lot of secondary with redundancy. 

More weapons doesn't mean better. It is about quality NOT quantity. 

But again. It is a GAAS game and hence DE must make money selling Warframe and weapons. Got it. 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Anyway, I'm heading to work now... or I'd expand on a few of those points and add others...

Take your time. :D

[Felsagger]

21 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I look forward to it, I don't own (or will ever) own a PS5, but I do have a PS4, but I barely used it for years, so feel free to tell me all about it, Story and all that 

Well, these games will be available on PC. Horizon Zero Dawn is on PC. The second one is timed exclusive. Eventually these games will be in PC. 

I will not spoil the game for others. I placed spoiler alerts on the respective videos just in case. 

Anyway, I'll give Duviri a try. The world of Duviri is quite interesting. I'll be fair of playing the whole thing and probably purchasing few frames to support DE. After all I am doing this because 3D artistry and game design deserves recognition. 

My critiques are aimed to those player who holds DE on a PEDESTAL and are conformists. We must demand a bit more of quality (a fair amount). Warframe IS NOT A BAD GAME. I still play it. I am sure many other people think the same but we must put things into perspective, that's all. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

I am serious. Proof of concept 2017. Showcase video 2018. I always come prepared. 

You are refering to a reddit video from 3 years ago showing RJ during its WIP. Things that werent released publically before that. So no, RJ was not showcased until 2018 for the first time, which is barely 5 years ago. And if you knew the actual history of RJ, you'd know it was planned for the game before WF actually released to the public. Still not meaning it was showcased earlier than 2018.

Also love that you used a YouTube content creator as a reliable public source for one of your other claims. I mean, how much more rediculously silly can a person get?

[TeaHands]

Don't know what this thread has turned into, and dont know if this has been brought up, but I watched the Tennocon Duviri gameplay showcase again out of excitement for the 26th. I noticed that the boss fight at the end does show a better reaction to melee attacks than what Pablo showed. 

Enemy actually getting affected by basic melee at 18:15

It looks like at the very least he's getting staggered from having his attacks interrupted.

[Sporthand]

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

My critiques are aimed to those player who holds DE on a PEDESTAL and are conformists. We must demand a bit more of quality (a fair amount). Warframe IS NOT A BAD GAME. I still play it. I am sure many other people think the same but we must put things into perspective, that's all. 

^ This!

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I've personally been outspoken against things that DE has done or not done, many times in the past, offering suggestions and reasoning from my standpoint. It's a far cry from holding DE on a pedestal. However, I know how to keep my expectations in line with reality. I also don't expect too much from DE.

There isn't a sane reason (none that you have provided, with Horizon so often, and the company that makes that game), to hold DE to that expectation. Single player games, especially PC games, and games made for next-gen systems, not held back by older PC specs and previous gen consoles (which, if they were to discontinue support, would lose a great many paying players), can be made to have much more impressive graphics. DE is also focusing on cross-play, and eventually cross-save, and they have to deal with multiple console certification processes and timelines, all to achieve simultaneous release dates for patches so the entire playerbase is on the same page with the same updates.

While you may not think quantity of releases is important, it is the life blood of Warframe... not so much the quality. Players of games-as-a-service are always content hungry, often only playing that one online game for a majority of their playtime, again, unlike off-line single player experiences.

These are very different beasts, with different priorities, and different goals. I'm not putting DE on a pedestal (I hold their feet to the fire often enough); these games are just in different categories entirely.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, TeaHands said:

Don't know what this thread has turned into, and dont know if this has been brought up, but I watched the Tennocon Duviri gameplay showcase again out of excitement for the 26th. I noticed that the boss fight at the end does show a reaction to melee attacks more than what Pablo showed. 

Considering that Warframe does have a flinch system for most enemies already (and I'm not talking about impact procs), I'm willing to bet that the lack of response in Pablo's clip is simply due to it not being enabled in the build he was playing.

Looking at the fight shown in Devstream 168, I noticed that the hammer-wielding Dax gets staggered sideways at 38:58 by a hit from Reb even though it doesn't get an impact proc until two hits later. Overall, the impression I get is that enemies do react to hits, but only when they're not locked into an attack animation.

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are refering to a reddit video from 3 years ago showing RJ during its WIP.

That video was produced by DE and my link where the video appeared was reddit. Steve was talking about his project in it. 

Is there any problem with this? 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Things that werent released publically before that. So no, RJ was not showcased until 2018 for the first time, which is barely 5 years ago. And if you knew the actual history of RJ, you'd know it was planned for the game before WF actually released to the public. Still not meaning it was showcased earlier than 2018.

I don't know what you are trying to say here.  

Write this idea in your native language. i'll do my best using aids for the translations and interpretation. 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also love that you used a YouTube content creator as a reliable public source for one of your other claims.

 Right now I have the game Horizon Forbidden West. These videos are walk through of a game that exists. The game is exactly as was described on the videos. 

The videos don't show the entirety of the product, true. I can safely say that the amount of content, completion and artistic values deserves merit. The work done by Guerrilla Games DELIVERS. 

The quality of the game is STUPIDLY HIGH. 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, how much more rediculously silly can a person get?

The word you are looking for is ridiculously but don't worry for me is close enough. 

I do select data from the general public for game play videos, it's natural. I used a video that was produced by Guerrilla Games themselves. I don't rely only on one source alone. 

 For example when I quote videos for Duviri I may use Reddit, Youtube (content created material by the public), Vimeo or any other access. The content on that video belongs to DE. 

You can make use of these sources for your arguments. It's perfectly valid. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Well, these games will be available on PC. Horizon Zero Dawn is on PC. The second one is timed exclusive. Eventually these games will be in PC. 

I will not spoil the game for others. I placed spoiler alerts on the respective videos just in case. 

 

Fair enough, I tend to just watch other people play such games, so I don't have to grab it myself, but the new one does look way better then the other ones that came out 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I've personally been outspoken against things that DE has done or not done, many times in the past, offering suggestions and reasoning from my standpoint. It's a far cry from holding DE on a pedestal. However, I know how to keep my expectations in line with reality. I also don't expect too much from DE.

I don't hold in a Pedestal Guerrilla Games. I have the game and I know what I was about to get. What they promised is exactly what I got. Yes, the game Horizon Burning Shores is not perfect either. But I can safely say that the quality of production is astronomical. 

I never expected diving underwater with the batwing and going aerial. I never expected a chase underwater with Alloy. I never expected many game play features that changed the game entirely. For my surprise Horizon Burning shores has lots of traits and attributes found in WARFRAME. 

Great developers makes reference to Warframe as a valuable game play source. So, yeah, DE did SOMETHING right with their game. 

Again, credit where is due. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

There isn't a sane reason (none that you have provided, with Horizon so often, and the company that makes that game), to hold DE to that expectation. Single player games, especially PC games

That is your opinion. Do you want me to care if you do not consider it sane my point of view? 

I will continue doing these comparisons to make a statement. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

, and games made for next-gen systems, not held back by older PC specs and previous gen consoles (which, if they were to discontinue support, would lose a great many paying players), can be made to have much more impressive graphics.

Technology moves forward. 

 Should we halt it? 

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

DE is also focusing on cross-play, and eventually cross-save, and they have to deal with multiple console certification processes and timelines, all to achieve simultaneous release dates for patches so the entire playerbase is on the same page with the same updates.

DE wants to include CELL PHONES.....

The graphic evolution of the game will go slower, slower than a Snorlax Pokemon. 

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

While you may not think quantity of releases is important, it is the life blood of Warframe... not so much the quality. Players of games-as-a-service are always content hungry, often only playing that one online game for a majority of their playtime, again, unlike off-line single player experiences.

Somehow DE should focus only on PC and next generation consoles. They should drop the older hardwares if THEY WANT TO PROGRESS in the graphic department. 

The potential of the game is held back entirely by older software. It's going to be uncanny with cell phones included. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

These are very different beasts, with different priorities, and different goals. I'm not putting DE on a pedestal (I hold their feet to the fire often enough); these games are just in different categories entirely.

 

WHY NOT DE have a finite set of achievable goals instead of being Jack of all trades MASTER OF NONE? 

Yes these two are different beasts, correct. The lion is Guerrilla Game' Horizon Zero Dawn and the Lamb is DE's Warframe game. 

Lambs and Lions are important in this "ecosystem". 

 

 

[Felsagger]

28 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Fair enough, I tend to just watch other people play such games, so I don't have to grab it myself, but the new one does look way better then the other ones that came out 

Going back to Duviri in all this conversation. 

I did enjoy the Shadows of the Colossus style approach to the flying worm boss fight. No one spoke about that. Pablo should speak more about this because IT IS INTERESTING. The defeat of the "colossus" is always a fight that I enjoy. It's like this discourse of survival between the player and the boss. I find that interaction fascinating. 

Another outstanding detail in Duviri is the fishing where the player can use this strange orokin mechanical drone to trap fish. This farming gadget is a stroke of geniality. Makes farming interesting and even hilarious. This is the DE I love. 

When DE goes entirely savage and wild the game gets way better. Why? Because fun happens. I want DE to simply go EXTREME and wild with their own creation. I've seen them take this path WITH SUCCESS. It's here where I'm going to head next in the discussion. 

I'll use only DE's game for such discussion of Duviri. These are the corners of the game that really motivates me stay in it. It's not the farming, grinding or even the enemy engagements. It's the INTERACTIVITY and the unexpected happenings that makes me stay in the game. 

For the surprise of many I DO have a lot of POSITIVE things to say about DE, too. 

[Loza03]

"I am serious. I always post evidence I always come prepared,"

*Posts several lines of literally nothing*

10/10. Masterful Glorious. Better writing could not be done by the foremost comedic genii of our time.

 

I don't think there's anything else I can add to this. I think this just cleanly sums everything about what you're bringing to this debate.

[Felsagger]

20 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

"I am serious. I always post evidence I always come prepared,"

*Posts several lines of literally nothing*

10/10. Masterful Glorious. Better writing could not be done by the foremost comedic genii of our time.

 

I don't think there's anything else I can add to this. I think this just cleanly sums everything about what you're bringing to this debate.

Doesn't take any skill to own you. Even a 12 years old call of duty kid can do that in just few lines but that is not my purpose here. Forums are not for the behavior you are displaying now. 

You came with that attitude. I simply posted evidence, you didn't. Be responsible for your actions, I'll be responsible for mine.