Expect swarms of "PLZ NERF X DUVIRI ENEMY/BOSS" when the update releases

[LordOfThePovos]

I hope the new bosses are hard. I really hope DE doubles down on the right thing for once and goes "Git Gud" to everyone who complains the bosses are too hard. They are bosses for a reason, they are supposed to be a challenge and not something you can beat in 30 seconds first try. I really was sad when they removed the increased night time difficulty from the plains of eidolon and the difficulty from the frost Spector junction (rip getting insta frozen when you tried to melee him) and probably a bunch of other things I can't remember at this moment. At least we still got the steel path haemocyte, but he's just more of a bullet sponge

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

19 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

If you think that's wild, wait for this:

Warframe isn't the only game I can think of with both casuals and hardcore players, it's just the only game I can think of that consistently fails to make them both happy because the developers won't ever experiment with offering difficulty levels or try anything other than a homogenized experience ^^;

My only pushbacks on this is that we are not taking about a short term game and, just like any game, hard becomes easy with enough time. As for the difficulty levels, we do have the base star chart levels, sortie levels and SP levels. Ramping up further would be pointless because players will adapt over time and, at some point, the whole purpose of the game would be lost.

[Felsagger]

Excuses. 

Example: Horizon Zero Forbidden West difficulty setting. 

[cute_moth.npc]

53 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

My only pushbacks on this is that we are not taking about a short term game and, just like any game, hard becomes easy with enough time. As for the difficulty levels, we do have the base star chart levels, sortie levels and SP levels. Ramping up further would be pointless because players will adapt over time and, at some point, the whole purpose of the game would be lost.

I can think of a lot of games where hard never gets easy so I don't really believe you? ^^;

Levels also aren't difficulty, they're just levels. A level 180 lancer is exactly as slow, dumb and capable as a level 30 one and just has more math.

They would need to try something other than levels. To be fair, they have tried, just in depressingly low intervals and with basically no follow through when a mode isn't quite right.

Also to be honest, I don't think they ever really will at this point.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

12 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I can think of a lot of games where hard never gets easy so I don't really believe you? ^^;

Levels also aren't difficulty, they're just levels. A level 180 lancer is exactly as slow, dumb and capable as a level 30 one and just has more math.

They would need to try something other than levels. To be fair, they have tried, just in depressingly low intervals and with basically no follow through when a mode isn't quite right.

Also to be honest, I don't think they ever really will at this point.

Can you give a few example of these games that are difficult? How does changing the difficulty settings makes them harder? Is there any forced restrictions that deem these games difficult?

[cute_moth.npc]

54 minutes ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Can you give a few example of these games that are difficult? How does changing the difficulty settings makes them harder? Is there any forced restrictions that deem these games difficult?

Sure!

In XIV you can go and do raids and they're for both casual and hardcore players?

The normal version will show you "telegraphs" where you can see the spots you want to avoid standing, the patterns are simpler, and failing to complete the mechanics will usually not kill you in one hit. These are still fun to play, but they're not brutal. They're for story and fun.

The Savage version is drastically different. The telegraphs will be pulled away from the player, patterns become strikingly more complex, the bosses have time limits and the fights are very hard.

They also have difficulty levels in between those two extremes. XIV is capable of giving casual and hardcore players both what they want because of it.

In XCOM your enemies progress through their own development faster as the game goes on and the player is much more challenged to keep up at higher difficulty levels? Missions have shorter timers, too.

Enemies in Cyberpunk are less aggressive on lower difficulty levels and give the player breathing room, on hard and very hard they will try and advance on you, using grenades, charging you, etc.

In Warframe they basically never get faster, smarter, get new abilities, enemy variety is virtually the same, parameters for victory never get tighter, etc? There are exceptions like Arbitration where some of the mission parameters actually do get harder, it's kind of too bad that arbi was never fixed but it's one of the closest examples of an actual difficulty level that Warframe has.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 31 minutos, cute_moth.npc dijo:

Sure!

In XIV you can go and do raids and they're for both casual and hardcore players?

The normal version will show you "telegraphs" where you can see the spots you want to avoid standing, the patterns are simpler, and failing to complete the mechanics will usually not kill you in one hit. These are still fun to play, but they're not brutal. They're for story and fun.

The Savage version is drastically different. The telegraphs will be pulled away from the player, patterns become strikingly more complex, the bosses have time limits and the fights are very hard.

They also have difficulty levels in between those two extremes. XIV is capable of giving casual and hardcore players both what they want because of it.

In XCOM your enemies progress through their own development faster as the game goes on and the player is much more challenged to keep up at higher difficulty levels? Missions have shorter timers, too.

Enemies in Cyberpunk are less aggressive on lower difficulty levels and give the player breathing room, on hard and very hard they will try and advance on you, using grenades, charging you, etc.

In Warframe they basically never get faster, smarter, get new abilities, enemy variety is virtually the same, parameters for victory never get tighter, etc? There are exceptions like Arbitration where some of the mission parameters actually do get harder, it's kind of too bad that arbi was never fixed but it's one of the closest examples of an actual difficulty level that Warframe has.

I would like to see boss fights that are challenging, but as long as there are weapons like incarnon and kuva/tenet, they will die in one hit.

[cute_moth.npc]

13 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I would like to see boss fights that are challenging, but as long as there are weapons like incarnon and kuva/tenet, they will die in one hit.

At this point, I would be exhilarated if they even wanted to give me a mission with some actually impactful modifiers, guest appearance enemies and maybe just have something evergreen to play that TRIED to be spicier.. I don't even expect that after 10 years of not doing it though. They kind of have advertised that they're just not interested in trying.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Sure!

In Warframe they (the enemy) basically never get faster, smarter, get new abilities, enemy variety is virtually the same, parameters for victory never get tighter, etc? There are exceptions like Arbitration where some of the mission parameters actually do get harder, it's kind of too bad that arbi was never fixed but it's one of the closest examples of an actual difficulty level that Warframe has.

Somehow in some forums there is a general allergy against common sense. In some parts of the world is forbidden the use of common sense. In other parts of the world it is considered a strange talent. Such allergy reached pandemic levels in 2023. 

 

 Are you sure you are posting on the right forum? :p

Edit: Be careful, driving under the INFLUENCE of common sense can save your life endless times. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2023-04-13 at 6:56 PM, trst said:

Because they didn't go and gut New War for the crymoaners I doubt they'd go and do much at all with such complaints for Duviri.

10 hours ago, LordOfThePovos said:

I hope the new bosses are hard. I really hope DE doubles down on the right thing for once and goes "Git Gud" to everyone who complains the bosses are too hard.

I hope so too, the amount of "crymoaners" that are already complaining that they can't bring their AFK Wukong in the Duviri really makes you think, all they care about is being able to use their Frame in the Open World, cuz they want to switch off their brains and nuke with a single keystroke (or macro).

Duviri is about the Drifter, not your Warframe and it should stay like that, forever. Hell, if I was DE I'd not even allow Warframe to be used at all, outside of that Warframe Made Gamemode.

[PR1D3]

On 2023-04-16 at 1:35 PM, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I would like to see boss fights that are challenging, but as long as there are weapons like incarnon and kuva/tenet, they will die in one hit.

Exactly. This is why there's a subset of the player base, myself included, have pointed out how damage 'levels' are all over the place and things have to be reigned in with a unified vision/scale. We have stuff that can only do so much cause they were designed back almost 6 - 7 years ago that were made to work with the parameters of the game during that period, and then there's the current that just dunks all over that numbers wise. They know it's bonkers. It was supposed to be addressed all the way back with the PoE and Khora with Damage 3.0.

And honestly, who thought it was a good idea to include something like the Devouring Attrition Node in the Incarnon weapons? They had to have known what can of worms they were opening. 

On 2023-04-16 at 1:50 PM, cute_moth.npc said:

At this point, I would be exhilarated if they even wanted to give me a mission with some actually impactful modifiers, guest appearance enemies and maybe just have something evergreen to play that TRIED to be spicier.. I don't even expect that after 10 years of not doing it though. They kind of have advertised that they're just not interested in trying.

Actually, based off of the few posts, the yearly survey responses, and off hand comments on streams I think there is a desire to actually do it. And I do genuinely think that they have the ability to do it. That being said, overall do they have the balls to actually do it and tell the parts of the community that loves the dysfunction that the dysfunction is going the way of the dodo? Nah. Hell no. The fallout when they fix/nerf small amounts of obviously broken, insane cheese scares the living crap out of them. And to do an undertaking that would see large quantities of it removed? They would just do the path of least resistance and just try to come up with wacky ways of attempting to make everyone happy but it's creating a clown fiesta where no one, including them, is not really happy.

On 2023-04-16 at 2:13 PM, Circle_of_Psi said:

I hope so too, the amount of "crymoaners" that are already complaining that they can't bring their AFK Wukong in the Duviri really makes you think, all they care about is being able to use their Frame in the Open World, cuz they want to switch off their brains and nuke with a single keystroke (or macro).

And I want to be Frank for a min. This is why we can't have and will never have these things or anything worth anything. Cause the type of player Circle is describing is going to flip their lids at any sort of gameplay that is not so easy to trivialize with their cheese. They will flip their lids at any balancing attempts. It's why the enemy difficulty was lowered at Fortuna's launch, its why Arbitrations' perma death was removed, its why Railjack's teamwork components were stripped and it's why this post exist in the first place. We know who they are. We know they will *@##$, DE will comply to their demands and lobotomize what they're complaining about. And they'll talk mad trash about how the game is too easy for them, meta this, meta that, Adaptation, etc. afterwards.

[-Moctezuma-]

27 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

And I want to be Frank for a min. This is why we can't have and will never have these things or anything worth anything. Cause the type of player Circle is describing is going to flip their lids at any sort of gameplay that is not so easy to trivialize with their cheese. They will flip their lids at any balancing attempts. It's why the enemy difficulty was lowered at Fortuna's launch, its why Arbitrations' perma death was removed, its why Railjack's teamwork components were stripped and it's why this post exist in the first place. We know who they are. We know they will *@##$, DE will comply to their demands and lobotomize what they're complaining about. And they'll talk mad trash about how the game is too easy for them, meta this, meta that, Adaptation, etc. afterwards.

Sad but true, the crymoaner gatekeeping loud part of this community will no doubt make its presence be known at Duviri release if the enemies aren't the equivalent of babies throwing bubbles at them

[Circle_of_Psi]

18 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

Sad but true, the crymoaner gatekeeping loud part of this community will no doubt make its presence be known at Duviri release if the enemies aren't the equivalent of babies throwing bubbles at them

Agree with both of you.

I really hope that this update doesn't cater to such people in any way or form, I want the gameplay to remain as it was in the Demo, Drifter & Meele, along with the Sirocco Amp to be the entire Duviri experience, even the Undercroft looks limited and I am so glad of that and the bite-sized jump to go into a Warrame (Of random) is something I want to stay in the game. (by looks of things, it lasted about 20 secs give or take) and as far I know, you have to unlock it even as well, to begin with, so I might not even unlock mine.

All the other content, like the new Void thing weapons, and the other new reg warframe content, will be likely ignored, the Undercroft (that you can choose from the start menu) and all the AFK Wukong stuff can be enjoyed the exact people we talk about here, I hope the Wrom Boss and overall enemies are difficult to fight and require skill and tactics to be beaten, not mindless Marco spamming (that IMO should be banned outright)

My take on it, if Duviri is exactly as the Demo showed and stays like that forever, I may just actually enjoy the update

[Felsagger]

36 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Agree with both of you.

I really hope that this update doesn't cater to such people in any way or form, I want the gameplay to remain as it was in the Demo, Drifter & Meele, along with the Sirocco Amp to be the entire Duviri experience, even the Undercroft looks limited and I am so glad of that and the bite-sized jump to go into a Warrame (Of random) is something I want to stay in the game. (by looks of things, it lasted about 20 secs give or take) and as far I know, you have to unlock it even as well, to begin with, so I might not even unlock mine.

All the other content, like the new Void thing weapons, and the other new reg warframe content, will be likely ignored, the Undercroft (that you can choose from the start menu) and all the AFK Wukong stuff can be enjoyed the exact people we talk about here, I hope the Wom Boss and overall enemies are difficult to fight and require skill and tactics to be beaten, not mindless Marco spamming (that IMO should be banned outright)

My take on it, if Duviri is exactly as the Demo showed and stays like that forever, I may just actually enjoy the update

You can count with the right amount of morons for such complaint. Many will go full crybaby if the enemy fights back in a fierce way. That's why the game is so boring doing enemy engagements. 

Something tells me that the AI will be the first victim in all of this. This game is notorious for the dumbest AI ever. The technicality of taking down enemies in Horizon Burning Shores at least shows enemies giving a fight. In here the AI waits to be clubbed or peppered. This game should increase the difficulty for experienced players. If this game insist pampering casuals then what's the point of playing it, right? 

 

[Kaiga]

On 2023-04-13 at 12:26 AM, ant99999 said:

Some players just aren't gonna put up with any of that "learning" of yours.

Instead of hand waiving the people who want to use their builds they've been refining, grinding for, and working on for the past years of content (which, is the point of the game) as being entitled children or whatever the outrage label is these days, please consider something:

The gameplay shown off is not Warframe.

It's EldenDrifterSouls or whatever the developers got inspired by after the new war, with the most inspired leaving to go make a whole new game based around this trend.

Crapping on people for not being excited another content island that doesn't let you wield your accumulated power is a very whack take.

The game is called WarFRAME not DrifterSouls.

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

The gameplay shown off is not Warframe.

It's EldenDrifterSouls  

I'm laughing so hard because it is ENTIRELY true. 

 

Literally, ROFL. 

[ant99999]

24 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Instead of hand waiving the people who want to use their builds they've been refining, grinding for, and working on for the past years of content (which, is the point of the game) as being entitled children or whatever the outrage label is these days, please consider something:

The gameplay shown off is not Warframe.

It's EldenDrifterSouls or whatever the developers got inspired by after the new war, with the most inspired leaving to go make a whole new game based around this trend.

Crapping on people for not being excited another content island that doesn't let you wield your accumulated power is a very whack take.

The game is called WarFRAME not DrifterSouls.

Oh boy, so much to unpack with your reply here.

Well, first of all, I didn't label anyone as entitled children or anything, you just did I guess. The only thing I said is that some people will prefer to whine on forums for long enough to have DE retroactively change the game to satisfy them, rather than actually learn how to play it, or you know just don't play it at all. Remember the "EldenDrifterSouls" (what the hell that even supposed to mean) will have an entirely warframe dedicated gamemode to it.

Secondly, for every time you try to use "BuT tHaT's NoT wArFrAmE" arguement, try finding any gameplay videos of Warframe from like 2014, and tell me that game is exactly the same as we have right now with a straight face. This arguement is invalid by default, because the game has already changed more than whatever difference there is between "True Warframe" and Duviri.

Thirdly, uhh, I'm just tired of all those souls-like comparisons. Do you even believe them yourselves' honestly? Did you perhaps not ever actually play a souls-like to make this comparison? Idk, but that's getting old very quick.

And, finally

24 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Crapping on people for not being excited another content island that doesn't let you wield your accumulated power is a very whack take.

I'm not excited for content islands either, you know. I'm even less excited for people assuming a bunch of things and then presenting it to me as a fact.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 34 minutos, ant99999 dijo:

Thirdly, uhh, I'm just tired of all those souls-like comparisons. Do you even believe them yourselves' honestly? Did you perhaps not ever actually play a souls-like to make this comparison? Idk, but that's getting old very quick.

now anything that presents a minimum difficulty is a souls, it must be something that is fashionable.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

3 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

now anything that presents a minimum difficulty is a souls, it must be something that is fashionable.

(puts in Battletoads for NES) Damn this game is as hard as Dark Souls.

[rhoenix]

Does this mean the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for the NES was a Souls-like?

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 30 minutos, (PSN)jaggerwanderer dijo:

(puts in Battletoads for NES) Damn this game is as hard as Dark Souls.

that is the souls of souls.

[Felsagger]

8 hours ago, ant99999 said:

Remember the "EldenDrifterSouls" (what the hell that even supposed to mean) will have an entirely warframe dedicated gamemode to it.

 

DE seems to be the trendy kid who enjoys doing the classical copy paste flavor of the exciting poster child that performs the catwalk in Beverly Hills so he gets a scoop of the attention that the poster child is getting. 

 

This poster child is obviously Elden Ring. The kid that is getting the attention. Now it's shifting towards Horizon Zero Burning Shores. :3

 

I prefer if DE sticks to their original ideas without getting trendy. Just imagine Horizon Burning Shores has a similar damage system that is found in Warframe. It uses elements and enemy altering behavior. 

 

[ant99999]

3 hours ago, Felsagger said:

-snip-

You know, actually the whole forums are a bit like the Soulsborne series, and you in it is a bit like Micolash, Host of the Nightmare, because you keep running around the point in circles and everyone only bears with your presence because there are others here besides you who are genuinely interesting to interact with.

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, ant99999 said:

You know, actually the whole forums are a bit like the Soulsborne series, and you in it is a bit like Micolash, Host of the Nightmare, because you keep running around the point in circles and everyone only bears with your presence because there are others here besides you who are genuinely interesting to interact with.

Can I snip your post? :3

Maybe?...^^

I don't have the habit of being a douchebag, it's not on my genes. I simply cope with it. If you are not interested, simply don't post. Some people share your ideas, others don't. Tough world isn't it, son? 

 

[ant99999]

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Can I snip your post? :3

Yes, I don't mind that whatsoever. In fact I would encourage that if I wrote a particularly lengthy wall of text.

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

I don't have the habit of being a douchebag, it's not on my genes. I simply cope with it. If you are not interested, simply don't post. Some people share your ideas, others don't. Tough world isn't it, son? 

I wholeheartedly believe you do not have such intentions. Although judging by one particular thread about Duviri gameplay it is really damn hard to arrive at any conclusion arguing with you, which is why I will try my best not to do that.