Thermal Sunder Garuda...

[Seele]

7 hours ago, Stafelund said:

For those who doesn't say they rarely encounter this, try going on Asia servers. This is the new wukong+zarr combo and I personally hope they don't nerf this because for number one their nerfs seem to be as widespread as a fired pellets from a shotgun that it affects other stuff that shouldn't have been nerfed lately, either that or the nerf they do can be disproportionate.

Number two, I don't mind it, it's pve and they're still contributing kills and giving me affinity, focus in the long run. Plus I still end up getting kills from time to time. This was my reason for partial indifference in the Wuclone trick but these players still move around because an enemy can potentially ruin them if they happen to be hit at their lowest hp. I'm pretty sure these guys are macroing it and if anything DE should probably crack down on that lane because this combo, when done manually, as clever and amusing as it is it is tiring to the fingers. The only reason it's effective because it's being done in an automated manner which is actually beyond going with the mechanics. 

I think that would be the best approach honestly. It's one thing to use macro for melee and accessbility, and there's this. 

However, I do mind the visual ****ery it does, combined with Eximii and the thermal sunder spam there's too much going on the screen and I can't see what's ahead. Stuff from behind the death circle can still shoot, and I don't like not being able to see them clearly.

EDIT: I don't really get people crying about when there's something so strong, they cry about it because their teammate gets more kills than them. This ends up nerfs happening to stuff people worked on and min-maxed with and understood how the game mechanics work. Sure you may get less affinity on the weapon you want to level up, but you get affinity anyways. You get the items your teammates killed. The only thing that happens is that your teammate will mostly get the small "500 kills" at extract, and that doesn't even make a dent of a difference, just a small recognition on the end screen, as well as their profile.

If Warframe rewards players with more kills, and players who get less kills are left in the dust with nothing, then sure, I'd understand. But Warframe doesn't work that way. Pretty much, most, if not all games when a player does something it's a benefit for everyone in the team. There's no point in being too competitive with numbers. That's why I don't see any P2W in this game, because in the end, what they'll have will help the players besides them whenever they utilize what they've got. After learning that the devs wanted Warframe to be a power fantasy, and combined with this sentiment with players crying over strong combos but nothing is affecting them in the end, I adamantly more oppose nerfing in this game. I can't help but think players who wish this are suffering from a "crab-in-a-bucket" mentality.

If it's a stupidly easy to make combo, I'd be fine with the nerfs, but nah. And no, if you mention buying gear with plat to make said combo achievable, then that is automatically irrelevant.

First part I largely agree with. From EDIT onwards, no.

I am not "crying" that another player is getting more kills than me. I am complaining that other people are completely invalidating the game and not even engaging with the game to do so. They are, as you suggest, very likely automating the process. I have no issue whatsoever when another player, playing the game, outdoes me. I've even occasioned to ask overperforming players about their builds. Thermal Sunder Garuda is the very epitome of the phrase "optimizing the fun out of the game".

I don't play Warframe (just) for rewards. I find that the most agonizing, mind-numbing way to engage with Warframe is to do whatever is most efficient and/or easiest. Hydron all your new gear to 30, use weapons that don't require aiming, use AoE map nuke spam, do everything in your power to not have to try at all. Because you'll still get the rewards. Not my thing! I like to use the game's mobility system and 3PS mechanics and do cool stuff with my cool little pretend-Bionicles. Being reward-driven in this game is a direct path to burnout, because as a LR3 player, let me tell you -- there's nothing all those rewards you're farming are leading up to. No promised land, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It very seriously is just more of the same. The fun of Warframe has to be in the gameplay loop, and rewards are supposed to help drive that loop, not dominate it.

What I lament is not that these people are denying me any items (because they aren't), XP (because they aren't), or post-game stats screens (because I don't care), but my experience while playing the game. I'm 30 with a full-time job. I only get so much time to play, so when I do, I like to... you know. Actually play. Not watch the game win itself while horrendous sound effects are blared into my ears.

[Traumtulpe]

Out of curiosity; I have suggested a 1 second cast delay on Thermal Sunder in another thread, would you agree with it?

My thinking was that this would not impair the abilities legitimate uses (on Gauss or when farming fissures), but due to the nature of the ability - multiplicative 3x scaling with every cast - even a one second delay should utterly destroy it's damage output in the scenario this topic is about.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, Seele said:

First part I largely agree with. From EDIT onwards, no.

I am not "crying" that another player is getting more kills than me. I am complaining that other people are completely invalidating the game and not even engaging with the game to do so. They are, as you suggest, very likely automating the process. I have no issue whatsoever when another player, playing the game, outdoes me. I've even occasioned to ask overperforming players about their builds. Thermal Sunder Garuda is the very epitome of the phrase "optimizing the fun out of the game".

I don't play Warframe (just) for rewards. I find that the most agonizing, mind-numbing way to engage with Warframe is to do whatever is most efficient and/or easiest. Hydron all your new gear to 30, use weapons that don't require aiming, use AoE map nuke spam, do everything in your power to not have to try at all. Because you'll still get the rewards. Not my thing! I like to use the game's mobility system and 3PS mechanics and do cool stuff with my cool little pretend-Bionicles. Being reward-driven in this game is a direct path to burnout, because as a LR3 player, let me tell you -- there's nothing all those rewards you're farming are leading up to. No promised land, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It very seriously is just more of the same. The fun of Warframe has to be in the gameplay loop, and rewards are supposed to help drive that loop, not dominate it.

What I lament is not that these people are denying me any items (because they aren't), XP (because they aren't), or post-game stats screens (because I don't care), but my experience while playing the game. I'm 30 with a full-time job. I only get so much time to play, so when I do, I like to... you know. Actually play. Not watch the game win itself while horrendous sound effects are blared into my ears.

I see, apologies, I kinda got off on a tangent there considering recently the things that are nerfed, both Eximus Overguard and ammo nerfs has some questionable parts on them. Overguard being janky and not taking certain frames into account, as well as some few stuff on the game.

More stuff about nerfs in general:

Spoiler

For ammo, it was mostly AOE but others were affected, which fittingly caused an uproar. And at that time, there were plenty of people crying for AOE being too powerful. Now, I'm not going to wash myself away of AOE because back then, I thought differently with Eximus and thought AOE was a problem before instead of CC abilities, but in the end I realized lately that it's pretty much important on this game after realizing how truly the game is about which is a relentless, hectic-at-times looter shooter. I think the game could maybe need a healthy mix of those.

But one thing that people seem to overlook and DE themselves seem to had have too as well is, many people worked on making their Kuva and Tenet weapons powerful and viable for steel path. We spent time for it. Getting those weapons, forma-ing them, gathering and fusing the needed mods. Then poof, you see those weapons being overshadowed by plenty because of the nerf that was all over the place.  I'm seeing people saying it's easier to get. For an older player of course they're easy to get. But what about players who started this recently, who had to work on their own? We played by the game's rules and mechanics, and strategized on it to power ourselves up. I understand the WuClone thing because it goes against what Warframe is and what DE , and the playerbase wants people to do is to play the game by yourself, that means no AFK, no automation; play with the game directly. There's a definitely a feeling of being cheated there. And now to go back on the Garuda spam topic...

The Garuda one is definitely similar to WuClone, since players can actually use macro on the game without getting banned (and sometimes getting banned, even for this is a gray area iirc), I'm sure people are using it too because I think I've seen them do the same routine over and over for +15 minutes, for endless missions. That is bound to be tiring without macro software, and I think instead of nerfing it unless DE knows how to exactly nerf it, it's better off to have those reportable for botting/automation because the macro is being used for something else that's more than necessary to play the game without hurdles. That, or to make thing simple, just make Macros bannable and have DE set up accessibility options on their own end, as well as ask users what they use Macros for convenience and have DE add it if it's within reason.

The combo, otherwise is lackluster if you look at how it's used anyways without macro, and requires multi management and precise key presses. If they can keep doing that with the same output as I see during my playthroughs and on some videos in this very forum without macro, then I think that deserves a leeway because the combo is pretty much elaborately setup which is emphasized by the routinely key pressing you'll have to do.

I heard DE hates toggleable options and if that's true, that's not really a good approach to have with accessibility settings.

14 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Out of curiosity; I have suggested a 1 second cast delay on Thermal Sunder in another thread, would you agree with it?

My thinking was that this would not impair the abilities legitimate uses (on Gauss or when farming fissures), but due to the nature of the ability - multiplicative 3x scaling with every cast - even a one second delay should utterly destroy it's damage output in the scenario this topic is about.

That could actually work and I would be more in favor of it if it only applies if it's a subsumed ability and for Gauss it works as usual. If I'm not mistaken certain subsumable abilities are weaker already and it logically makes sense for me. Though disallowing Macro on it would certainly work too, and I'm pretty sure that would slow things down as well.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Stafelund

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

That could actually work and I would be more in favor of it if it only applies if it's a subsumed ability and for Gauss it works as usual.

You could be more specific and only add a one second delay after fire Thermal Sunders (so Gauss could cast cold back to back, or cold+heat to strip armor).

[Stafelund]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You could be more specific and only add a one second delay after fire Thermal Sunders (so Gauss could cast cold back to back, or cold+heat to strip armor).

With Gauss I don't see people spamming Thermal Sunder that much that badly compared to Garuda where every half a second there's a dubstep clap. I think that in a form of affecting subsumes can definitely work if we really have to go that route, it won't be the first since Protea's dispensary has some duration reduction when subsumed.

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

it won't be the first since Protea's dispensary has some duration reduction when subsumed

I see your point, and I agree that changing only the subsumed version would be an effective solution - I just really dislike abilities being nerfed in the Helminth. Like Dispensary having half the duration, what even is the point? It just makes the ability crappy.

Helminth wasn't supposed to be "put half of another warframe's ability on your frame of choice".

Edited July 22, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Stafelund]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

I see your point, and I agree that changing only the subsumed version would be an effective solution - I just really dislike abilities being nerfed in the Helminth. Like Dispensary having half the duration, what even is the point? It just makes the ability crappy.

Helminth wasn't supposed to be "put half of another warframe's ability on your frame of choice".

I do see what you mean, I don't certainly like that as well and personally I still think that cracking down on macro being used on this in particular is the best solution. Though there isn't much of a negative here, because on Gauss it still works well and him getting the 1 second delay too just feels, eh. Or we can go the extreme, do a selective nerfing and have that second delay trigger on Garuda when the Garuda has that setup, arcane and Thermal Sunder and all. I think certain games have done this.

[Seele]

A Helminth-diminished refire delay should be a suitable fix, yes. Though I do on occasion see Gauss get overzealous with thermal sunder, Gauss is not capable of Garuda's energy economy and should, in theory, eventually run out of energy. I also strongly dislike base frames being punished for other frames abusing their abilities via Helminth, so it's a rather good idea, if a bit of a new precedent since currently Helminth diminishments affect only base stats. Knowing DE as we do, I don't have the highest of hopes that they would break their current mold to address this issue.

And unfortunately, if they don't, simply nerfing any of the base stats of TS would do little if anything to address the problem; currently its damage comes from heat procs, which it would continue to do even with lesser base power, and duration and energy economy are of absolutely no concern. Range would hit it the hardest, but mod range power is already absurd. If DE were to stick to their guns and not try a new means of diminishing a Helminth ability, Range would be the best bet.

[GPrime96]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I see your point, and I agree that changing only the subsumed version would be an effective solution - I just really dislike abilities being nerfed in the Helminth. Like Dispensary having half the duration, what even is the point? It just makes the ability crappy.

Helminth wasn't supposed to be "put half of another warframe's ability on your frame of choice".

And we have abilities that’s at full power from the frame it came with and works better on a different frame than the main frame it came from, Gloom being one of them.

[Frendh]

On 2023-07-05 at 5:43 PM, Drachnyn said:

Does anyone do that outside of lvl 20 defense missions?

I have one, I was entertaining the idea of using it on SP circuit. I have not tried it yet though.

[Seele]

Took a bit of a break from Warframe, saw the dev notes and decided I'd pop on and catch up on some nightwave, maybe grab another incarnon adapter.

Nightwave challenge for doing steel path missions. Lo and behold, first mission, thermal sunder garuda, thermal sundering all the way through. Nothing left for me to fight but eximus corrupted bombards.

[Tiltskillet]

Ran into my first one of these yesterday, in SP Circuit of all places. Definitely an obnoxious experience for my ears, but there were still plenty of things to kill for the rest of the squad.  

I did a bunch of void fissures too, and saw a few Sunder Titanias.  These were wiping out maps of paper thin enemies very easily.

The Titania thing has been around forever, but I rarely see them in SP.  I can imagine Garuda scaling far better.

[Seele]

Let's try and get that Skana incarnon.

Joined the Circuit

Two teammates equip Garuda and start spamming Thermal Sunder in Teshin's cave

Left the Circuit

[Neoronial]

After seeing some comments, I had the idea of leaving East Asia to play. Garuda using Thermal Sunder and Gauss are all over the place here.

Anywhere...even Steel Path...

clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, ...

The continuous cast sound effect is so annoying...

Originally, I thought everyone used this skill just to quickly open the relic. I don't object to this behavior at all.

I understand that some newcomers don't understand the game mechanism and how to make themselves stronger, so they copied the lazy configuration from some video sites.

But in endless quest, I can't beat this Garuda high damage output ratio and kills, even with a lot of explosive weapons—because their damage area is so wide and so fast, I can't find a second one like this Tumor skills.

When evacuating, their skill use count: 10k+😅 And they don't even need to move and aim much.

Of course, it’s not necessary to compete with each other, but as a player who likes action shooting games, I can’t experience anything in the same team as this kind of person.

 

I don't understand why some people are so resistant to nerfing a super high use skill, this is obviously a SUPER DIVERSE GAME, I love it so much because of the variety of weapons and skills in this game.

 

[Seele]

6 hours ago, Neoronial said:

After seeing some comments, I had the idea of leaving East Asia to play. Garuda using Thermal Sunder and Gauss are all over the place here.

Anywhere...even Steel Path...

clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, ...

The continuous cast sound effect is so annoying...

Originally, I thought everyone used this skill just to quickly open the relic. I don't object to this behavior at all.

I understand that some newcomers don't understand the game mechanism and how to make themselves stronger, so they copied the lazy configuration from some video sites.

But in endless quest, I can't beat this Garuda high damage output ratio and kills, even with a lot of explosive weapons—because their damage area is so wide and so fast, I can't find a second one like this Tumor skills.

When evacuating, their skill use count: 10k+😅 And they don't even need to move and aim much.

Of course, it’s not necessary to compete with each other, but as a player who likes action shooting games, I can’t experience anything in the same team as this kind of person.

 

I don't understand why some people are so resistant to nerfing a super high use skill, this is obviously a SUPER DIVERSE GAME, I love it so much because of the variety of weapons and skills in this game.

 

I agree that the strength of Warframe is in its item diversity. A lot of care was put into making hundreds upon hundreds of different Warframes and weapons for us to use, and many introduce fun and exciting new ways to play, but sadly players tend to gravitate to the same boring things over and over. Not boring because they are popular, but rather popular because they are boring, it would seem; I don't see people slaying massive mobs using Mecha Pulse and a sniper rifle, although it is quite potent, no, they do whatever requires the least thought and execution on their part, sometimes to the point that it's quite easy to suspect they are botting. We went through the same thing with World on Fire and Maiming Strike Atterax.

I should be on record as saying the players cannot be blamed for using what's too good, it's the responsibility of the developers to balance the choices available to the player with one another. I don't mind there being builds that make the game hilariously easy and let the player turn their brain off... on low level content. Need to farm orokin cells and want to just listen to music or otherwise chill out while you do it? Sure. Go nuts. But for anything Steel Path or equivalent, the player's attention and presence should be a strict requirement. I hope the devs make it that way soon.

[jeepio]

and now I quit mission every time I hear thermal sunder sound. 

[Oldskool_Plebe]

Bumping this thread.

This must be more prevalent on the Asia server. I am getting absolutely tired of seeing all of the Thermal Sunder Garuda's just standing there, dry-humping the air. I really believe that this has become the new AFK move for the Asia server, and I seriously hope that DE does something about Thermal Sunder. I used to think that TS Titania was bad ( and I still do), but this has become worse. It's on the same level that AFK Wukong was on this server before the nerf. I've never blocked any player, but I am getting close to blocking any Garuda player spamming TS (and they are typically players in the teens or low 20s in MR).

[AegidiusF]

I've met today Thermal Sunder Garuda's Brother : Thermal Sunder Harrow : the big difference is that Thurible regens energy on kills and Harrow can cast Thermal Sunder continuously. It was on an Archon Hunt (first mission), so low level enemies. 

I think this shows that the problem is only Helminth Thermal Sunder, that is balanced to work with Gauss original ability kit, but not balanced to work with other frames kits.

[FightingTAKA]

Sorry for Google translation.

The really broken part of TS is the part that checks DPS when the Fire proc hits and treats it as if it's twice the damage of the previous hit. As a result, the damage of TS will increase by 2x → 4x → 8x → 16x → 32x → 64x → 128x → 256x by hitting repeatedly. If you attack 10 times in a row, you will receive 1024x damage. If the initial DPS is 500, the final damage will be 512,000. If you keep hitting it repeatedly, FlameProc's DPS will easily exceed 1000k. This is a process not seen in normal flame status abnormalities. This effect drives out other flames.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

👏

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 4 heures, FightingTAKA a dit :

Sorry for Google translation.

The really broken part of TS is the part that checks DPS when the Fire proc hits and treats it as if it's twice the damage of the previous hit. As a result, the damage of TS will increase by 2x → 4x → 8x → 16x → 32x → 64x → 128x → 256x by hitting repeatedly. If you attack 10 times in a row, you will receive 1024x damage. If the initial DPS is 500, the final damage will be 512,000. If you keep hitting it repeatedly, FlameProc's DPS will easily exceed 1000k. This is a process not seen in normal flame status abnormalities. This effect drives out other flames.

This is very interesting. I didn't knew Thermal Sunder worked like this.

If I'm not wrong, when cast os enemies that already have a heat proc, Thermal sunder will make it's normal damage plus the damage of the previous heat proc (heat has only one cululative instance). In addition to this, enemies inside the area will receive additional damage over thime from the ability (cap of 4 AoE for each TS element). Also, Heat status does not have a cap and can grow linearly indefinetly.

There may be something working wrong on how the procs are cumulating.

Thanks for these informations👍.

[Seele]

No word on an intended adjustment to this for the upcoming update, but I suppose "nerfs" are rarely advertised for mainlines. Fingers crossed! I haven't played WF in a long time and hope that the new update captures my attention for a while, and that is unlikely if I have to play solo the whole time. The social aspect of Warframe is important.

[iKLuTcHiTz]

Well, like yall always tell me. Play solo than.

[FightingTAKA]

It is possible to reproduce not only Helminth's TS but any frame as long as you have the energy. A frame with excellent energy recovery means.
For example, Citrine, Gara, Grendel, Gyre, Nekros, Protea, Styanax, Trinity. They are not as good as Garuda or Harrow.
Ember is difficult to do because other flame effects get in the way.
Nekros can be used at the same time as Drop and Nuke (so far, I haven't met anyone online other than me who used it for testing)
There is a big problem with TS itself.

[Windy_Wind]

I came back to the game after 4 years and now everywhere I go, I keep hearing thermal sunder banging in the corner. This is basically excal javelin spam of the old day but with worse sound effect. I just sit there and did nothing, let the other 3 garuda spam thermal sunder until there is nothing left. I felt asleep in every single public game and I wonder why I reinstalled the game just to...not play the game?. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Windy_Wind