Kullervo subsume choices

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

On 2023-07-06 at 12:43 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

1) Lycaths hunt - pair with health conversion and equilibrium and we got a very effective health tank that can spam (almost) non stop.

Good one, I thought I needed an armor strip ability like tharros strike for to maximize his damage output but everything dies with Corufell buffed by his first ability, there is no need.

On 2023-07-06 at 11:46 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I think Silence

I would use Silence if the Deafening field didn't break the theme, I like all my Warframes on theme, Yes I know, i'm weird 

[Leqesai]

42 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I would use Silence if the Deafening field didn't break the theme, I like all my Warframes on theme, Yes I know, i'm weird 

Silence is ultimately what I have gone with instead of gloom.

Kullervos kit is pretty energy hungry and I found the cc from gloom to be mostly irrelevant on him due to the immense damage he can output. Also, the life gain is mostly negligible since his kit already has life gain mechanics and the overguard invalidates life gain to a degree.

[Tiltskillet]

I'm sticking with his full kit for now, but I've been eyeing some standard choices--Ensnare, Shooting Gallery, Breach Surge, Nourish--and a few non-standard ones: Vial Rush, Blood Altar, and Defy.   Those last two are particularly intriguing to me since I've never injected them into any frame and they might work really well in this case.  Although I'll have some testing to do on that. 

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm sticking with his full kit for now, but I've been eyeing some standard choices--Ensnare, Shooting Gallery, Breach Surge, Nourish--and a few non-standard ones: Vial Rush, Blood Altar, and Defy.   Those last two are particularly intriguing to me since I've never injected them into any frame and they might work really well in this case.  Although I'll have some testing to do on that. 

Nourish was one I tried and it has counter synergy with his kit. The thorns doesn't work with it. The extra viral damage is also negligible given the damage output potential. The energy gain is significant though.

But if going for a subsume for energy gain I would probably choose citrine over grendel in this case. Citrine kind of doubles down on the damage components in kullervos kit while easing the energy costs.

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Nourish was one I tried and it has counter synergy with his kit. The thorns doesn't work with it. The extra viral damage is also negligible given the damage output potential. The energy gain is significant though.

Three  things about it are appealing to me: energy, a viral proc, and some passive CC.  I'd be replacing Recompense, so no explicit counter synergy.  (Which has got to be a bug anyway.)  I was thinking about Fractured Blast too, but it's not as (absurdly) large  a bundle of useful things as Nourish.

Frankly I'm enjoying his full kit though. 

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Three  things about it are appealing to me: energy, a viral proc, and some passive CC.  I'd be replacing Recompense, so no explicit counter synergy.  (Which has got to be a bug anyway.)  I was thinking about Fractured Blast too, but it's not as (absurdly) large  a bundle of useful things as Nourish.

Frankly I'm enjoying his full kit though. 

Yeah if you do nourish instead of recompense it is a solid option for sure.

The overguard from recompense is pretty solid for my uses though. Not as strong as iron skin or something but easily refreshed for 20k+ oveeguaed on my setup.

[Ksape9901]

Depends on what you want to do with him and how you want to play him.  My recommendations for what to replace are his 1, 2, or 4.

Wrathful Advance: Replace this if you're not doing any high lvl content.  A regular heavy attack will do the work just as well.  Bleed proc will kill everything.

Recompense: I usually caution against replacing this ability.  Even before the buff.  Everyone was saying how he's a health tank, and it's only 5k EHP.  This is true, but it also can fully heal the 20k+ EHP behind that 5k EHP overguard in a single button press.  Note, this is before the upcoming changes to provide a small immunity when overguard falls off.  But if you're fighting lower level enemies (sub 300 SP) the above reason really doesn't matter.

Storm of Ukko: For higher level play this is unnecessary.  It's good area control, but generally you have other things, so once again, depends on play style and what you want to do.  I generally lose the storm as I'm looking at higher level.

 

#1: Nourish: My recommendation for high level play is Nourish (unless you want to run Equilibrium, then you have other choices).  But the bottom line is you need energy to spam abilities (lvl 300+ SP).  Your 2 will keep you alive, generally I replace 4 with it as I'm usually killing everything by rotating 3 -> 2 -> 1.   If running equilibrium you get the option of Fractured Blast, Lycanth (though this makes you a discount Voruna), etc.

#2: Pull: If playing on lower end, you're going to keep your 4, it's your mass AE nuke.  Use pull to get things into it more quickly, sacrifice either your 1 or your 2.  Hope you and people in your group have energize and you have energy pads to keep this up long term, but it's fun standing in the rain.  Link things with 3 and enjoy the death.

 

Gloom / Silence / Shooting Gallery: If not using either of the above options, you have choices for survivability such as Gloom / Silence, but once again you will hit an energy issue at a point.  If you're playing on the lower enemy level side, then you don't really need Gloom / Silence anyway as you want things to get to you quicker so you can play / kill.

Tharros / Terrify: If you're keeping your 1, and you're actually using ANY weapon that has a force slash proc on it's heavy attack, armor strip is useless to you.  Initial hit will most definitely not do much / not kill the target.  At the same time, the slash procs will very shortly after.  Now there is some interesting synergy right now that if you link 2 enemies, and 1 is armor stripped and 1 is not and you hit the armor stripped one it seems to do full damage to both via curse.  I'm still testing.  But it might make both of these abilities much more interesting.  Main issue is it comes back to the energy.  Equilibrium becomes a requirement in the build, and getting unlucky can lead to you dying quickly.  

 

Honorable Mentions:

Spellbind: Status immunity.  If you don't want to think and just move.  

Any damage buff: Higher numbers I guess?

 

[Leqesai]

On 2023-07-08 at 9:39 AM, Ksape9901 said:

Depends on what you want to do with him and how you want to play him.  My recommendations for what to replace are his 1, 2, or 4.

Wrathful Advance: Replace this if you're not doing any high lvl content.  A regular heavy attack will do the work just as well.  Bleed proc will kill everything.

Recompense: I usually caution against replacing this ability.  Even before the buff.  Everyone was saying how he's a health tank, and it's only 5k EHP.  This is true, but it also can fully heal the 20k+ EHP behind that 5k EHP overguard in a single button press.  Note, this is before the upcoming changes to provide a small immunity when overguard falls off.  But if you're fighting lower level enemies (sub 300 SP) the above reason really doesn't matter.

Storm of Ukko: For higher level play this is unnecessary.  It's good area control, but generally you have other things, so once again, depends on play style and what you want to do.  I generally lose the storm as I'm looking at higher level.

 

#1: Nourish: My recommendation for high level play is Nourish (unless you want to run Equilibrium, then you have other choices).  But the bottom line is you need energy to spam abilities (lvl 300+ SP).  Your 2 will keep you alive, generally I replace 4 with it as I'm usually killing everything by rotating 3 -> 2 -> 1.   If running equilibrium you get the option of Fractured Blast, Lycanth (though this makes you a discount Voruna), etc.

#2: Pull: If playing on lower end, you're going to keep your 4, it's your mass AE nuke.  Use pull to get things into it more quickly, sacrifice either your 1 or your 2.  Hope you and people in your group have energize and you have energy pads to keep this up long term, but it's fun standing in the rain.  Link things with 3 and enjoy the death.

 

Gloom / Silence / Shooting Gallery: If not using either of the above options, you have choices for survivability such as Gloom / Silence, but once again you will hit an energy issue at a point.  If you're playing on the lower enemy level side, then you don't really need Gloom / Silence anyway as you want things to get to you quicker so you can play / kill.

Tharros / Terrify: If you're keeping your 1, and you're actually using ANY weapon that has a force slash proc on it's heavy attack, armor strip is useless to you.  Initial hit will most definitely not do much / not kill the target.  At the same time, the slash procs will very shortly after.  Now there is some interesting synergy right now that if you link 2 enemies, and 1 is armor stripped and 1 is not and you hit the armor stripped one it seems to do full damage to both via curse.  I'm still testing.  But it might make both of these abilities much more interesting.  Main issue is it comes back to the energy.  Equilibrium becomes a requirement in the build, and getting unlucky can lead to you dying quickly.  

 

Honorable Mentions:

Spellbind: Status immunity.  If you don't want to think and just move.  

Any damage buff: Higher numbers I guess?

 

I agree with most of what you said but the sentiment about kullervo being a tank (of any variety) is incorrect imo.

Kullervo is a dps frame through and through. He has above average ehp but this is countered by a "must actively push 2" alternative to naturally regenerating shields. Even at 20k the overguard is a side grade to normal shields. It has no damage reduction, cannot benefit from adaptation and requires energy to sustain. 

I get why people jump on the "he is a tank" bus because rhino and nezha have similar mechanics and are widely regarded as tanks but I think many people are jumping the gun here. Kullervo certainly isn't paper thin, but I wouldn't call him a tank either. 

[(XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL]

FYI : 

(Health Conversion)

Energy Orbs picked up while using  Equilibrium do not provide armor stacks.

Edited July 9, 2023 by (XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL said:

FYI : 

(Health Conversion)

Energy Orbs picked up while using  Equilibrium do not provide armor stacks.

Are you saying the mod that specifically says "health orbs" doesn't proc when not picking up health orbs?

Color me surprised.

Equilibrium grants health when picking up energy orbs. It doesn't magically make energy orbs health orbs.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Leqesai

[0_The_F00l]

15 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Are you saying the mod that specifically says "health orbs" doesn't proc when not picking up health orbs?

Color me surprised.

Equilibrium grants health when picking up energy orbs. It doesn't magically make energy orbs health orbs.

 

Yeah , only lavos can do that :D

[Leqesai]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yeah , only lavos can do that :D

Burn the witch!

Edited July 10, 2023 by Leqesai

[helioth137]

I've been thinking Xata's whisper, Thanos Strike, Blinding Flash are good replacements for 3 or 4  at higher level play

[ToKeSia]

I always use roar because 12x hate incarnon with 1 tap second ability then you always 12x