Corrupted Holokey Ergo Glass QOL PLEASE

[(NSW)Paladin0]

Dear DE PLEASE, I beg you, improve the drop rate for Corrupted Holokeys.  Or add the Ergo Glast Tenet weapons to the Sisters weapon pool.  Today I literally farmed for almost 6hrs with no drops.  Add that I'm on Switch, this was a brutal ordeal of load times and host migrations.  And this is only 1 or many farm runs over the last couple months.  Between the drop rates, and the element rotation, it's not fun anymore.  I'm an old school MMORPG player, so I'm very patient with long farms, but this is almost torture.This might be one of the worst weapon farms in the game.  Low drop for keys + 40/weapon + waiting on the element to come into rotation (praying its a good %).  Pleeeeeaaaaase QOL these weapons

[Pakaku]

They did buff holokeys in the past, but only the quantity, not the drop chances. The exact opposite of what people were asking for. Safe to say I’m not going back to that grind anytime soon

[(NSW)Paladin0]

Yeah, I'd rather have a 100% at 4 vs 30% at 10.  There is a fine line when even hard-core grind players throw up their hands and admit that time sink is just too much, especially with all the other stuff in the game we need to farm.  At least some of those have Plat options for those that don't have the time to farm (or just don't want to).  Put them in Sister pool as an alternative

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Paladin0 said:

Yeah, I'd rather have a 100% at 4 vs 30% at 10.  There is a fine line when even hard-core grind players throw up their hands and admit that time sink is just too much, especially with all the other stuff in the game we need to farm.  At least some of those have Plat options for those that don't have the time to farm (or just don't want to).  Put them in Sister pool as an alternative

You do get holokeys from sisters... Granted you get a whopping 1 for finishing your sister... but you can get them from sisters. 

Personally I don't think holokeys need changed. The tenet melee weapons are a PITA to grind but DE puts stuff like this in the game to gatekeep completionism behind significant time barriers (which encourage long-term spending habits since each major update comes with multiple purchase options). 

[Pakaku]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

You do get holokeys from sisters... Granted you get a whopping 1 for finishing your sister... but you can get them from sisters. 

Personally I don't think holokeys need changed. The tenet melee weapons are a PITA to grind but DE puts stuff like this in the game to gatekeep completionism behind significant time barriers (which encourage long-term spending habits since each major update comes with multiple purchase options). 

A couple of people completing things too quickly is never a valid reason to limit the rate everyone else can complete things, if they ever can thanks to abysmal RNG

[Leqesai]

Just now, Pakaku said:

A couple of people completing things too quickly is never a valid reason to limit the rate everyone else can complete things, if they ever can thanks to abysmal RNG

This is not what I am saying, at all.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Personally I don't think holokeys need changed. The tenet melee weapons are a PITA to grind but DE puts stuff like this in the game to gatekeep completionism behind significant time barriers (which encourage long-term spending habits since each major update comes with multiple purchase options). 

The problem with that philosophy is that the game is developed to abandon the last update as they move to the next. Holokeys weren't as bad to farm when it was what everyone was farming, but now as older content, it's a slog for recruitment and reliably earning drops.

The whole system of Holokeys and being detached from Sisters of Parvos really is the problem with them to begin with. Void Storms already have Sevagoth to give them a shred of relevancy, and Railjack is basically abandoned now anyways, so they can safely streamline those melee weapons (and Ferrox) for Sisters. I don't think DE should be looking to just push players through content, but that can definitely be a positive side effect with the main goal just being experience improvements and streamlining mechanics.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

The drop rate is fine. The reward pool however needs to change. Holokeys needs to be in it's own seperate reward pool from all those relics.

[Leqesai]

34 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The problem with that philosophy is that the game is developed to abandon the last update as they move to the next. Holokeys weren't as bad to farm when it was what everyone was farming, but now as older content, it's a slog for recruitment and reliably earning drops.

The whole system of Holokeys and being detached from Sisters of Parvos really is the problem with them to begin with. Void Storms already have Sevagoth to give them a shred of relevancy, and Railjack is basically abandoned now anyways, so they can safely streamline those melee weapons (and Ferrox) for Sisters. I don't think DE should be looking to just push players through content, but that can definitely be a positive side effect with the main goal just being experience improvements and streamlining mechanics.

I certainly don't disagree with you here. I think it would do DE good to reassess their business model to bring in new players rather than continuously stack time-gates. But c'est la'vie. 

[quxier]

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

6 hours ago, (NSW)Paladin0 said:

Yeah, I'd rather have a 100% at 4 vs 30% at 10.  There is a fine line when even hard-core grind players throw up their hands and admit that time sink is just too much, especially with all the other stuff in the game we need to farm.  At least some of those have Plat options for those that don't have the time to farm (or just don't want to).  Put them in Sister pool as an alternative

You do get holokeys from sisters... Granted you get a whopping 1 for finishing your sister... but you can get them from sisters. 

Personally I don't think holokeys need changed. The tenet melee weapons are a PITA to grind but DE puts stuff like this in the game to gatekeep completionism behind significant time barriers (which encourage long-term spending habits since each major update comes with multiple purchase options). 

The problem is that even 1 weapon can take 1 hour to even days/weeks IN GAME TIME. There are huge grinds. This and few others are just horrible if you are unlucky. Many grind at least let you buy it for plat or other resources (e.g. Citrine or Voruna). This got nothing, except another horrible 1 holo per Sister.

2 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

The drop rate is fine. The reward pool however needs to change. Holokeys needs to be in it's own seperate reward pool from all those relics.

It doesn't matter where you get Holos (separate or not from rellics & co). The problem is drop rate. They can show ~37% with just 2 itemes (holos & something else) and you still could farm for hours like OP because somethign is broken.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2023-09-18 at 3:17 AM, Voltage said:

being detached from Sisters of Parvos really is the problem with them to begin with

Yeah, there is a reason for that, though, beyond the obvious: DE didn't have the ability to rig the Sisters to use these weapons properly, because unlike guns, it would require them to have specific animations and interactions that the enemy AI currently doesn't have.

It's, funnily enough, one of the same reasons that the Kuva Liches can't be gunners or pilots on RJ; their skeletons aren't rigged for the interaction with the pilot/gunner chairs.

Takes too much time, and there's now a shop in place that means they can ignore taking the time, so...

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, there is a reason for that, though, beyond the obvious: DE didn't have the ability to rig the Sisters to use these weapons properly, because unlike guns, it would require them to have specific animations and interactions that the enemy AI currently doesn't have.

It's, funnily enough, one of the same reasons that the Kuva Liches can't be gunners or pilots on RJ; their skeletons aren't rigged for the interaction with the pilot/gunner chairs.

Takes too much time, and there's now a shop in place that means they can ignore taking the time, so...

I'm really not interested in any excuses for why the system exists in the current form. If the goal for Corrupted Holokeys was to be player-friendly, they could and would function as follows:

1. The Ergo Glast weapon rotations only change elemental at 60%; no randomized percentages.
2. Elementals rotate daily every 24 hours.
3a. One Sister of Parvos contract = one fraction of a weapon from Ergo Glast (guaranteed).

• Example: One Sister (Converted or Vanquished) = 1/5th of an Ergo Glast weapon (8 Corrupted Holokeys and a weapon purchase = 40 Corrupted Holokeys).

3b. Corrupted Holokeys only drop from Veil Proxima Void Storm missions (given this gear is higher end) as a guaranteed drop equal to a percentage of the weapon where the fraction is calculated based off the time it takes for completing a Sister of Parvos contract. 

• Example: One Veil Proxima Void Storm = 1/8th of an Ergo Glast weapon (5 Corrupted Holokeys and a weapon purchase = 40 Corrupted Holokeys). 

If we go with statement 1, 2, and 3a, the excuse of needing the shop due to rigging limitations still remain, but the system is only bound to Sisters, and they have guaranteed progress with finite grind. This also creates these truths regarding the system:

1. Farming for the Tenet melee or Tenet Ferrox is still farming for Ephemeras and vice versa.
2. Trading for, or Converting a Sister of Parvos still makes progress towards Tenet melee and Tenet Ferrox.
3. Progression is guaranteed, more scalable in the future, and less randomized/gated through Ergo Glast's shop. 
4. The player no longer needs to sit on 400 Corrupted Holokeys waiting for specific rolls from the shop, and instead can farm 200 Corrupted Holokeys with a similar time investment, but healthier progression.
   • 400 Corrupted Holokeys based off 5 x 40 x 2 (number of weapons (5) x Corrupted Holokeys per purchase (40) x 2 purchases (one purchase for preferred elementals and one purchase of progenitor roll with a percentage at or exceeding 54.6%).

If you want to go with option 3b to keep Corrupted Holokeys mainly from Void Storms, change the progression so that it's less randomized. This wasn't well received when it came out, and it didn't age well either.

I really don't care what kind of excuses there are for keeping Corrupted Holokeys or Ergo Glast around, but the system can feel way more complimentary to the Sisters of Parvos system than it does now. Currently Ergo Glast offers Tenet weapons that are entirely separated from Sisters of Parvos as an acquisition method. The progress that Sisters give towards a Tenet purchase is laughable given the circumstances and randomization from the shop itself. 4 or 5 Sisters of Parvos contracts should absolutely equal a 60% Tenet Ferrox or Tenet melee of your choice.

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, Voltage said:

I'm really not interested in any excuses for why the system exists in the current form.

Should be.

The reasons they exist in the first place are the basis of what changes will happen in the future. And these reasons are often the exact ones why changes do not happen, due to the limitations not having changed and/or DE's options for overcoming them being the exact same as they were originally.

And what's with the 'if' they were designed to be player friendly?

Of course they weren't.

The Holokey grind was designed for a very specific reason; to force engagement with a system to attain the specific rewards. No other reason. The weekly rotation was to ensure 'gold rush' grinds when a preferred Element was available, to produce reliable data so that they could predict what trends the player base will follow both now and in the future. The drop rate was specifically to keep players from any form of guarantee. There is no guarantee in Warframe unless the reward is inconsequential or the cost is Premium Currency.

It's all deliberate.

So all of the 'they should do this' is kind of meaningless. Of course they should do that. They won't.

Just like you should care about initial reasonings for the existing situations. But... 

[(NSW)Paladin0]

Wow, I wasn't expecting this to trigger an extended conversation.  Glad I'm not the only one passionate about this.

To slightly add on to my previous entries I am NOT looking for a "gimme" grind, I'm more than happy to put the time in.  It's the nature of tge RNG that gets me.  And I actually enjoy Railjack (for what content there is) but the draw for others isn't always there, so finding groups can be a task.

Whether it's a leaner loot pool, separate rolls, or guaranteed drops, the Holokey grind hurts.  They don't even have to add the Glast weapons to the actual Sisters, but give a guarenteed 10 or 20 Holokeys per sister.  

Thanks for all the supportive, and even counter arguments.  I enjoy seeing everyone's ideas on how the player experience could be improved.  More posts means a higher chance it'll catch DE attention. :)

[_COY_]

On 2023-09-17 at 10:59 PM, (NSW)Paladin0 said:

Today I literally farmed for almost 6hrs with no drops

Maybe this is the worst RNG I ever heard from this game, or you do it differently than me.

With a 3-4ppl group, the skirmish missions on Saturn take 3-5 minutes for the possibility of 6 holo keys.
Yes, 3minutes is possible - 1pilot, 1 in the crew-ship-kill-seat and 1(or 2) flying around and do the tasks on the ships/stations.
Lets say 5 minutes with breaks, so you can do 10 runs/hour.
6hours = 60runs with no drop - that's possible, but very unlikely.

Give it a try, build a group in recruiting channel and set the roles beforehand.
You can even do it with a group of 2, but that way it took us ~8minutes per try.

-c0y

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, _COY_ said:

Maybe this is the worst RNG I ever heard from this game, or you do it differently than me.

Also agreed.

The only way that, I feel, OP could be spending so much time without a drop is that they misunderstand where and when the drop happens (as in, thinking they drop from Rotations instead of from End of Mission), and so are spending too much time in the individual missions. Even Solo the average longest time I take is eight minutes in a mission, three at most to get into the main ship, with five to complete the first Rotation.

Point of opinion; I've actually had a lot more fun completing the lower-rank Void Storms solo because while the drops are lower, the space missions are shorter and the enemies easier, so I can pay less attention to what I'm doing. Maybe watch Netflix on a second monitor.

[quxier]

On 2023-09-22 at 9:32 AM, _COY_ said:

6hours = 60runs with no drop - that's possible, but very unlikely.

On 2023-09-22 at 12:40 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

On 2023-09-22 at 9:32 AM, _COY_ said:

Maybe this is the worst RNG I ever heard from this game, or you do it differently than me.

Also agreed.

The only way that, I feel, OP could be spending so much time without a drop is that they misunderstand where and when the drop happens

Taking time per mission (e.g. I do like 4 missions per hour, depending on difficulity, there is lots of lags with my low-end old pc etc) but some people have bad luck. Unless it's as @Birdframe_Primesaid that they are doing something wrong, everyone that complains about low or non existent Holo drops are such people (people that have very bad luck).

So during 6 hours I would do ~24 runs. Within such number I had at least 1 drop. I got more but I don't really count. With many weeks (sometimes e.g. 1-2 hour(2) per day some 1-2 missions) I got only 5 melees. And I got 30 holos from the Stream. So yeah, drops are not great FOR ME. YMMV. But is OP lying or doing something wrong? Not necessary. They can do things near @_COY_ time yet still get 0 drop. I got personally 2 weeks of no Gyre drop (from Zariman bounties). So I believe that it could happen.

 

[(NSW)Paladin0]

On 2023-09-22 at 12:32 AM, _COY_ said:

Maybe this is the worst RNG I ever heard from this game, or you do it differently than me.

With a 3-4ppl group, the skirmish missions on Saturn take 3-5 minutes for the possibility of 6 holo keys.
Yes, 3minutes is possible - 1pilot, 1 in the crew-ship-kill-seat and 1(or 2) flying around and do the tasks on the ships/stations.
Lets say 5 minutes with breaks, so you can do 10 runs/hour.
6hours = 60runs with no drop - that's possible, but very unlikely.

Give it a try, build a group in recruiting channel and set the roles beforehand.
You can even do it with a group of 2, but that way it took us ~8minutes per try.

-c0y

 

On 2023-09-22 at 3:40 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Also agreed.

The only way that, I feel, OP could be spending so much time without a drop is that they misunderstand where and when the drop happens (as in, thinking they drop from Rotations instead of from End of Mission), and so are spending too much time in the individual missions. Even Solo the average longest time I take is eight minutes in a mission, three at most to get into the main ship, with five to complete the first Rotation.

Point of opinion; I've actually had a lot more fun completing the lower-rank Void Storms solo because while the drops are lower, the space missions are shorter and the enemies easier, so I can pay less attention to what I'm doing. Maybe watch Netflix on a second monitor.

Nope, that's exactly how I run.  Full group, tried several different nodes. I specifically target Exterminates u less I feel like mixing it up a little and will run the occasional Skirmish.   And yes, I do understand how the drop happens, it's not rotation it's a bonus at the end.  

 

And yes, I understand how RNG works also. Now, that being said, sometimes I do luck out and get  a couple drops back to back.  However, from the original farm, I really don't think DE's 8ntention is to have players farm 6hrs with no drops at all.  Again, RNGesus can be an unforgiving loot god, but how many casual, even some regular players, are going to want to return to a farm that might waste 6hrs for nada?  I'm used to the grind, so I will for a time, but everyone has their limits.

I'm just suggesting a re-evaluation of some RNG rates, and maybe a balance.  Even like 1-3 guaranteed (depending on which Proxima), then just keep the same rate of bonus.  Players are at keast getting something they want for their time, and encouraged to return for the chance of a fatter bonus drop.