How the Mod System Failed Us, and a Suggestion

[CrownOfShadows]

If you think about archon shards... they're basically doing the job mods were meant to.

For example, does anybody actually use Natural Talent anymore? I doubt it, shards are doing that mod's job now. Increase ability power? Not mods anymore, now it's shards. Increase hp, armor, energy, shield? Shards, not mods. 1 blue armor shard is more armor than a maxed Steel Fiber (depending on the frame ofc since mod is % not flat). And you can put 5 of them in. And they can be tau.

But it's not just shards, it's also arcanes. Arcane Blessing = 1200 hp. How many maxed Vitalities is that? Arcane Guardian is 900 armor... how many Steel Fibers is that?

Now, I'm not saying that having 3 or 4 different systems that are all accomplishing the same thing is bad - in fact from a design standpoint I can imagine that it's useful - but I am saying that this really highlights how the mod system has failed us.

I think that what the mod system really needs is to have a core section and specializations that branch off of it. What I mean by this is that there should be a core section where all mods compete with each other for premium space (ala 'build diversity'), and then a specialization section for each area, like defense area, an ability area, a resistance area, a utility area, etc. Within these specialized areas mods of the same type would compete with each other rather than with EVERY MOD IN THE GAME>

For example, in the defense area, all the armor mods would compete with each other for the available space. So Steel Fiber, Armored Agility, Health Conversion, Gladiator Aegis, Mecha Pulse, Jugulus Carapace, Amar's Hatred, Carnis Carapace, etc would all compete for space in the defense tree (obviously probably not at full strength - the core section would be full strength and the side trees would have modifiers or something, or there could even be full strength, half strength, quarter strength sections, or sections that are 'corrupt' and pit mods against each other or 'valence' sections that hybridize mods [like FF7 materia ha] - just spitballing).

The point is, it doesn't matter if we get new armor mods, new health mods, etc... if they're not better than the current top-tier they will never make it into any build. With a specialization system like this we can use mods, retain build diversity, and only introduce minor power creep, as well as create deep 'skill tree' type of builds on frames. What do you think?

[Pakaku]

Shards are a late-game system, and the mods you're claiming they replace are far more accessible earlier in the game. It is totally fine to make progress in the game and unlock more options and ways to mod.

Plus what if the way I mod isn't compatible with what you're proposing? I don't build all of my warframes defensively, for abilities, for utility, etc. and having an open unpartitioned table is far more versatile.

[(NSW)Greybones]

I think the mod system is a solved problem when combined with the fact that the rest of the game happens across every level for the sake of every build we can make and perpetually rewards things that can be taken elsewhere or leveraged to expand our options. Plenty of times there’s not even any need for something like survival mods, so no need to force us into a category that’s not necessary for what we’re doing, thus enabling build diversity in the first place (whether players take advantage of build diversity is another matter)

Edited October 17, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[CrownOfShadows]

6 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Shards are a late-game system, and the mods you're claiming they replace are far more accessible earlier in the game. It is totally fine to make progress in the game and unlock more options and ways to mod.

Plus what if the way I mod isn't compatible with what you're proposing? I don't build all of my warframes defensively, for abilities, for utility, etc. and having an open unpartitioned table is far more versatile.

Well I'm not saying get rid of shards. And my proposal still includes an 'open unpartitioned versatile table' as it's core. Also I didn't specify where in the progression such a hypothetical mod specialization tree might occur, it could easily also be an end-game pursuit.

Edited October 17, 2023 by CrownOfShadows

[(NSW)Greybones]

Haven’t we talked before, crown, about build diversity and how you need the game to force you to use alternative builds?

[(NSW)Greybones]

I think I pseudo get what you’re going for, but the mod system is an extremely distilled version and surprisingly simple to grasp because of it.

Do I need Armour? No? Something else then. Damage? No? Something else then.

The problem you’re trying to solve though, build diversity, is not a problem in this game designed around the notion (and incidentally is why most of the focus has been happening somewhere outside the range of your most Meta of players). Instead it’s a problem of players who think that there’s such thing as using one build to solve every problem and tweaking and refining it until it’s the best possible build and then living in that build despite it having worn out its welcome long ago because they can’t stomach setting their baby aside, even temporarily. Players who don’t treat builds as the means to facilitate the gameplay that they want, but rather as challenges to figure out the singular optimal one (which diversity isn’t a concern, because of the key word “Singular”).

I’m still chewing on the concept, but one of the glaring questions I’d ask of any player-submitted change is “Will it survive players who aren’t chasing diversity”?

edit: Also there’s some nonsense about “Mandatory mods” even if someone’s not the most Meta of chasers, which is just a self-fulfilling prophecy of loss of diversity if it’s anything

Edited October 17, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[taiiat]

yes, Archon Shards added more Mod Slots.

it's an overcomplicated way to go about it perhaps, but whatever. we got it anyways. so we got the easier freedom of choice anyways.
adding more Slots is the simplest way to 'solve' such a problem, and that's what the game did, it added more Slots. any other solution that does it a different way is more complexity without any actual realized benefit, frankly.

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The point is, it doesn't matter if we get new armor mods, new health mods, etc... if they're not better than the current top-tier they will never make it into any build. With a specialization system like this we can use mods, retain build diversity, and only introduce minor power creep, as well as create deep 'skill tree' type of builds on frames. What do you think?

i don't follow that. it sounds like you're saying all Armor Mods or w/e would compete in the same space against each other, and be dedicated to that space.
isn't that making Mods compete against each other for their Stats more than they are now, if anything? if you were allowed to have like, uh, 3 Armor bonuses or something - doesn't that mean that now Armor Mods are competing against each other even more than they are now, since you're allowed to have less of them Equipped?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

While I kinda see what you mean, I also think it would stifle diversity. While we currently can mod whatever we like, therefore we can equip all the best in class mods, it also allows for more freedom and flexibility. Whether or not people choose to do this for whatever reason might be a different conversation but this freedom is one of the few reasons I still play Warframe.

[CrownOfShadows]

14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't follow that. it sounds like you're saying all Armor Mods or w/e would compete in the same space against each other, and be dedicated to that space.

isn't that making Mods compete against each other for their Stats more than they are now, if anything? if you were allowed to have like, uh, 3 Armor bonuses or something - doesn't that mean that now Armor Mods are competing against each other even more than they are now, since you're allowed to have less of them Equipped?

This would depend on the exact implementation, number of slots and number of competing mods. If hp mods are also included in the 'defense tree' then that expands the competition, or there are other functional systemic possibilities like I mentioned corruption and valence. It is a danger, I agree, but not an unmanageable one. It's a balance between too much competition and not enough competition.

Jugulus, Amar & Carnis mods were mostly DOA because everyone's builds are trying to cram ability range, strength, efficiency, power in with shields, armor, hp, shield recharge (soon) energy economy, augments, etc. Minor mods just never stand a chance of getting into a build. You could fully archive 2/3 or 3/4 of all warframe mods and nobody would notice, or like 9/10 of all exilus mods. The idea is to provide space for these to compete, and to create that by lowering the competition. I suppose you could also divide mods into two categories and only allow 'specialty' mods in the specialized section, not sure, that might be good, might not be.

You mentioned the bonuses, and actually I think the bonuses are the bigger problem. Even if the stats are muted in the specialized section, there's no way to mute the bonuses, so there could be bonus overload (depending on implementation). An inelegant solution would be to disable all bonuses in the extended trees, but idk if that's the best way to go about it. Maybe have certain slots in the trees that allow bonuses - an interesting idea actually - as that would prioritize a mod for its bonus rather than its main stats.

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

While I kinda see what you mean, I also think it would stifle diversity. While we currently can mod whatever we like, therefore we can equip all the best in class mods, it also allows for more freedom and flexibility. Whether or not people choose to do this for whatever reason might be a different conversation but this freedom is one of the few reasons I still play Warframe.

Well, the idea is that we keep the diversity basically as it is, we just add trees for people to put all the other dozens of mods that are never used. Basically a way for minor mods to compete - not with the big boy mods, but more with each other.

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

If you think about archon shards... they're basically doing the job mods were meant to.

Wrong assumption. You can build anything on that. And it will be pointless.

Archon shards were not meant to do what mods were meant to do. Archon shards are a meaning to achieve your build goals (breakpoints) easier or to achieve builds not possible on modding only (eg. adding crit damage to pseudo-exalted). They work on top of mods. 

I have seen a topic like this before, it even started with the same assumption fallacy as yours. Let me check if I can find it.

I found one, but I do not think it is the one:

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Zakkhar

[PublikDomain]

41 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

While I kinda see what you mean, I also think it would stifle diversity. While we currently can mod whatever we like, therefore we can equip all the best in class mods, it also allows for more freedom and flexibility. Whether or not people choose to do this for whatever reason might be a different conversation but this freedom is one of the few reasons I still play Warframe.

On the other hand, is it really "diversity" when it's the exact same builds you, me, and everyone else uses to squash the game? If there are a thousand choices but only ten of them are actually chosen, is that really a diverse outcome? The freedom to choose anything means some people do exactly that and choose only the strongest builds, and either you choose the same things to keep up or you choose something weaker and get left behind.

Edit: To be pithy, necessity is the mother of all invention. Right now the modding system doesn't reward invention. You can take all the Gale Kicks and Gun Glides you want and make the whackiest most inventive builds no one has ever seen, but it's just going to get trounced by the generic Slash/Viral/Heat hybrid build everyone uses for everything.

Edited October 18, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

On the other hand, is it really "diversity" when it's the exact same builds you, me, and everyone else uses to squash the game? If there are a thousand choices but only ten of them are actually chosen, is that really a diverse outcome? The freedom to choose anything means some people do exactly that and choose only the strongest builds, and either you choose the same things to keep up or you choose something weaker and get left behind.

Edit: To be pithy, necessity is the mother of all invention. Right now the modding system doesn't reward invention. You can take all the Gale Kicks and Gun Glides you want and make the whackiest most inventive builds no one has ever seen, but it's just going to get trounced by the generic Slash/Viral/Heat hybrid build everyone uses for everything.

I fully agree the modding system doesn't push fot diversity and most people will choose the "best" option. That doesn't change the fact other options are fully available and can be taken. Just because people choose not to does not mean that option isn't there.

[PublikDomain]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I fully agree the modding system doesn't push fot diversity and most people will choose the "best" option. That doesn't change the fact other options are fully available and can be taken. Just because people choose not to does not mean that option isn't there.

I don't think the option simply being there is what makes something diverse. It might on paper, but it's a hypothetical diversity. Which is more diverse? A system where there are 1,000 choices and 10 actually get chosen, or a system with 500 choices and 100 actually get chosen? For me I'd say the latter. Even though there are fewer total choices on paper, there are far more actually being explored and made use of. Having more choices doesn't matter if no one chooses them.

Edited October 18, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

I don't think the option simply being there actually makes something diverse. It might on paper, maybe, but it's a hypothetical diversity. Which is more diverse? A system where there are 1,000 choices and 10 actually get chosen, or a a system with 500 choices and 100 actually get chosen? I'd say the latter. Even though there are fewer total choices on paper, there are far more actually being explored and made use of.

The simple act of there being freedom isnt really something you can argue against. Any type of restriction would just reduce the amount of freedom we have. 

[taiiat]

49 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

This would depend on the exact implementation, number of slots and number of competing mods. If hp mods are also included in the 'defense tree' then that expands the competition, or there are other functional systemic possibilities like I mentioned corruption and valence. It is a danger, I agree, but not an unmanageable one. It's a balance between too much competition and not enough competition.

what i forsee is that either you don't have enough Slots of a particular type and so you don't gain any choices any may even gain less - or, we have plenty/too many and you don't have to choose and we just inflate all of our Stats since we can now have a pile of everything without having to make any cost analysis. 

50 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Jugulus, Amar & Carnis mods were mostly DOA because everyone's builds are trying to cram ability range, strength, efficiency, power in with shields, armor, hp, shield recharge (soon) energy economy, augments, etc. Minor mods just never stand a chance of getting into a build. You could fully archive 2/3 or 3/4 of all warframe mods and nobody would notice, or like 9/10 of all exilus mods. The idea is to provide space for these to compete, and to create that by lowering the competition. I suppose you could also divide mods into two categories and only allow 'specialty' mods in the specialized section, not sure, that might be good, might not be.

most of these Mods in question just aren't individually that useful anyways, it's to be expected. if there's something else you could choose instead, you'd probably choose that since it'll be more effective/useful.

we Equip some Set Mods at times, because those are useful enough to bother. but most of them aren't actually very useful. that's the fault of the Mod, i'd say. even in a vacuum they still wouldn't be that useful.
if the effects of a Mod are very minor, competition or not it's still very minor and so it doesn't matter if you Equip it, it still didn't really do anything.

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

The simple act of there being freedom isnt really something you can argue against. Any type of restriction would just reduce the amount of freedom we have. 

Publik was addressing diversity though.   You can't have diversity without freedom, but freedom doesn't produce a lot of diversity when choices aren't vaguely balanced.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

39 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Publik was addressing diversity though.   You can't have diversity without freedom, but freedom doesn't produce a lot of diversity when choices aren't vaguely balanced.

This thread was about diversity by altering the modding system. OP didn't suggest balancing mods only which ones we can equip simultaneously. Restricting mod choice doesn't create diversity, it removes it. Not sure what you are trying to correct me on.

Edited October 18, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[S2Weak]

The problem is balance. Not every mod is born equal.

 

And not all attributes are equal, too.

For example, Shield has 50% DR now when you need 300 Armor for HP to do the same.

And there's Shield Gating. It would be a waste of space for like half of all frames to put on a steel fiber.

You can't solve this even if you add some slots for survival mods only.

Edited October 18, 2023 by S2Weak

[Qriist]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

does anybody actually use Natural Talent anymore?

My Harrow and Octavia both use Natural Talent. Admittedly, that's mostly due to lack of yellow shards.

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, Qriist said:

My Harrow and Octavia both use Natural Talent. Admittedly, that's mostly due to lack of yellow shards.

Interesting thing about Harrow: casting speed mods affect the energy per second of Thurible and not jut the initial animation, whereas casting speed shards either don't or have a much reduced effect.  Or didn't...I haven't checked in a long time.  Anyway, if that's still the case,  NT is still useful on builds that want to maximize his energy economy, even with plenty of yellow shards available.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[CrownOfShadows]

Put together a visual to help stimulate the neurons:

and also a possible example of how such a thing might work in practice as best I could

[CrownOfShadows]

Note that everything here is just a guess. There might be 10 slots per tree (enough to get into deeply unused mods), or 2. There might be 3 slots with bonuses active allowing you to put in the full gladiator set or augur set, or instead of dropping the power so low it might never go below half. It's all adjustable.

Things like equilibrium and flow might be classified under abilities idk.

The ability tree is unfortunately still very stacked and also the most dangerous, but there's also a lack of interesting "sub-par" ability mods.

The corrupted idea is problematic but interesting. It would be hard to create counters and maybe it's just a pool of generic counters rather than targeted ones idk.

Note that I've combined exilus and augments in the same tree like of course should be done xD

*also I included steel fiber here which was a mistake - it's mutually exclusive with umbral fiber so something else would have to be in that slot

Oh and also - I'm completely ignoring capacity for this example, but capacity limits could be a real thing to deal with in such a scenario. Whether or not each tree would have it's own capacity idk.

Oh and forma, this could also be a forma hog, depending on said capacity limits

Edited October 18, 2023 by CrownOfShadows

[L3512]

6 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Put together a visual to help stimulate the neurons:

and also a possible example of how such a thing might work in practice as best I could

Problem with this is I want to use more mods for abilities. little for utility and none for resistance. Just because useless mods exist in the game I do not want to be forced to use the bloody things.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Put together a visual to help stimulate the neurons:

and also a possible example of how such a thing might work in practice as best I could

Some of this just looks like strict permanent upgrades, sort of like what players are doing with their “Mandatory Mods”, but actually designed with the idea of superglueing mods onto slots instead of it being some weird personal limit players are imposing on themselves

edit: Not gonna lie, when lazy players complain that the current incarnation of the mod system is too complicated and therefore they have an “excuse” to not experiment and the game itself needs to tell them what to do and how to play, I can only imagine this would be way more… odd. I’m guessing that this isn’t going to stop players finding their optimal build and then living in it?

Edited October 18, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Tsukinoki]

13 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The point is, it doesn't matter if we get new armor mods, new health mods, etc... if they're not better than the current top-tier they will never make it into any build.

So please tell me:
What stops your system from falling into the exact same problem?

Once people fill up these "dedicated trees" with the BIS mods, why would anyone bother with any other build or attempting to put anything else into those slots?  After all they would just be competing against the current BIS for those given trees.

 

Sure you now have increased the number of mods that people use!
But you really haven't done anything to help with actual mod diversity because now you just have "This is the 100% BIS setup for the ability tree!" and then watch 99.99999999% of players copy that exactly for literally every single frame in the game because that is what players tend to do.

Once one person comes up with "This is BIS according to some math" then it's done and over.  The experimentation phase is done and everyone glomps onto that one superior build.  Then when new mods come out they are either better the current BIS, in which case they are put into the trees, or they are not and therefore never make it into any of the builds.
After all why would players put something that wasn't BIS into those slots?

 

This doesn't solve the issue you want to solve in any meaningful way, it merely kicks the can down the road a bit.
And it won't take long for players to catch up with the can again.
The only thing that this idea will achieve is a bloat in player stat numbers.  That's it.  More power creep with higher stats and with nothing to show for it.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Tsukinoki