I want to fight max level enemies.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

good for you. now, OP and many others like myself would prefer a more accessible, non-time consuming way to spawn level cap enemies to test builds against them.

Fully agreed. I don't even care about rewards. It would just be nice to be able to spawn max level enemies or perhaps a game mode that scales extremely quickly to max level. For the sake of fun please.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

personally I'd be fine with a place to fight level cap enemies off the bat.. but I'd want it to be worth my time, so the rewards would have to be decent, and what could possibly be worth the maximum effort? sure, some people will take on the mode just for the sake of the challenge, but I'm not really one of those people.

I remember a few years back when we still had Alerts DE did actually make a joke alert - think it was April fools -  where it was level capped corpus enemies. I did it for myself, and I helped several friends through that alert, without much issue, but it still wasn't the most fun thing I'd ever done. plus with some of the frames and armor-stripping mechanics we have now, even level capped enemies would be pretty easy kills for the properly equipped.

anyway, putting my own opinion aside, DE have stated time and again that they're not looking to add any sort of endgame, so I wouldn't expect a level capped mission or mode or whatever to be added permanently.

 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Nothing in this game is p2w. You can farm for everything that has an effect on your ability to kill enemies. Farm the millions of kuva it takes to get a god roll or just stop rolling when you get a decent roll. Sell the rolls you don’t want and save up to buy the roll you desire. Farm plat and skip the some of the most grindable farms.

55 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

The issue you bring up is an issue echoed throughout the years: Players build their arsenals with the idea that their arsenals will be tested at endgame, only to realize the climax they expected doesn't exist. Even though level cap is still rather easy (in comparison to the level of challenge offered by other games), I'd still like the option myself.

Here is the harsh reality: Unlike other games of similar ilk that does offer some resistance to endgame builds, Warframe will most likely never have that - the game can't be too skill-based, because it is a f2p game that offers power for money, aka it is a p2w game and if paying doesn't all but ensure winning a readily accessible mission, then DE seems to think they aren't doing p2w right. Aside from that, having content that requires top tier gear may make the p2w aspect of the game too obvious in their opinion (most people don't even recognize this game is p2w), so although it would be nice and a part of me hopes a challenge is on the horizon, the larger part just doesn't see it happening. 

 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

I’ve heard that DE doesn’t want to incentivize playing at the level cap. They didn’t want you to run all 10 tiers of Duviri circuit all at once. I hear the game isn’t balanced with level cap in mind despite DE changing several things to make us unkillable and erasing most challenge from the game. They might as well let us hop in a mission and encounter level 9999 enemies right away.

The thing is… removing the time investment needed to reach these levels will increase the amount of players who engage with that content. This means more players will complain about the lack of challenge even at those levels. Nobody wants a second steel path because DE has ruined the game’s balance. Warframe cannot have a challenge without removing the power that was given to us or by reworking enemy AI to counter our power appropriately.

DE has shown us time and time again that difficult endgame content will never exist. We complete all content until a new release and then we grind the afk-able/leech-able content until we’ve finished. It’s just what this game is.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Skoomaseller]

15 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

I’ve heard that DE doesn’t want to incentivize playing at the level cap. They didn’t want you to run all 10 tiers of Duviri circuit all at once. I hear the game isn’t balanced with level cap in mind despite DE changing several things to make us unkillable and erasing most challenge from the game. They might as well let us hop in a mission and encounter level 9999 enemies right away.

The thing is… removing the time investment needed to reach these levels will increase the amount of players who engage with that content. This means more players will complain about the lack of challenge even at those levels. Nobody wants a second steel path because DE has ruined the game’s balance. Warframe cannot have a challenge without removing the power that was given to us or by reworking enemy AI to counter our power appropriately.

DE has shown us time and time again that difficult endgame content will never exist. We complete all content until a new release and then we grind the afk-able/leech-able content until we’ve finished. It’s just what this game is.

if they continue giving us more power and refuse to rework enemy ai so they aren't bumbling morons then no, there won't be any difficult challenge in this game.

which is... fine by me. priority, imo, should be if newer pieces of content is fun, enjoyable. there's obviously the "I derive fun from challenge" angle to consider though

[Silligoose]

43 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Nothing in this game is p2w. You can farm for everything that has an effect on your ability to kill enemies. Farm the millions of kuva it takes to get a god roll or just stop rolling when you get a decent roll. Sell the rolls you don’t want and save up to buy the roll you desire. Farm plat and skip the some of the most grindable farms.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

most people don't even recognize this game is p2w

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

it is a f2p game that offers power for money, aka it is a p2w game

 

On 2022-11-04 at 9:48 PM, Silligoose said:

 

PAY TO WIN (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary "in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others".

What is Pay-to-win? (computerhope.com) "Pay-to-win, abbreviated as P2W, describes an aspect of a game where players are allowed to get an advantage with real-world currency to purchase in-game items. The pay-to-win structure is prevalent in both multiplayer online games through DLC (downloadable content) and mobile games through in-app purchases."

What Is "Pay-to-Win" in Video Games? (makeuseof.com) "In the simplest terms, "pay-to-win" describes a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money."

P2W | What Does P2W Mean? (cyberdefinitions.com) "P2W is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win," to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters)."

P2W Meaning Explained - What Are P2W Games? (esports.net) "This means that you’ll actually be buying things like loot crates or even skins to gain an advantage over other players who haven’t purchased the items."

Pay to Win – Meaning, Origin, Usage (digitalcultures.net) "Pay to win is an expression for games that promote themselves as “free to play” but offer purchasable content that puts buyers into a favorable position over their fellow players who are playing the game freely."

What Are Pay-to-Win Games? The Best and Worst of 2022 (gamedesigning.org) "Users and players willing to shell out a few extra bucks to access features that are normally unlocked as the game progresses can give some serious advantage, especially in online games."

Seems there's always at least one. Items being farmable doesn't mean a game isn't p2w, since that has no bearing on whether a game is p2w or not. Go research the subject and use the actual definition instead of your made-up nonsense. Once you understand the business model this game has and the strategies that go with that, you'll better understand why some decisions are made.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

They should've never released steel path.. now people want titan path, diamond path etc. 

Endless cycle

Edited November 13, 2023 by (XBOX)K1jker

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

1 minute ago, Skoomaseller said:

if they continue giving us more power and refuse to rework enemy ai so they aren't bumbling morons then no, there won't be any difficult challenge in this game.

which is... fine by me. priority, imo, should be if newer pieces of content is fun, enjoyable. there's obviously the "I derive fun from challenge" angle to consider though

I’m not disillusioned by how this live service game can survive or anything but they have integrated systems like Archon Hunts, Kahl missions, Steel Path Incursions, Duviri, Steel Path Fissures, and other plat farms that are based in old content. We will be going back and playing this content even after completing Whispers in the Wall which might be integrating new game mechanics into the daily/weekly grinds. The differences in art direction, gameplay, and age between content becomes very apparent.

The AI of the new enemy faction will probably be slightly better than what we have now. The new tile sets will look more refined as technology and the art direction has been altered. When improvements like this are made with new content, it makes old content feel jank, tedious, and potentially less challenging compared to the new shiny stuff. Enemy AI will need to be addressed at some point or old content will need to be deleted. At least that’s what would happen ideally. Instead, DE is going to leave old and tedious content in to let us pay money to skip it. More efficient farms will be introduced with the new update and the players who skipped old content will still need to play it get access increase their MR.

I’m not sure what my point was supposed to be but I wrote my thoughts down here GG

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

38 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

 

Seems there's always at least one. Items being farmable doesn't mean a game isn't p2w, since that has no bearing on whether a game is p2w or not. Go research the subject and use the actual definition instead of your made-up nonsense. Once you understand the business model this game has and the strategies that go with that, you'll better understand why some decisions are made.

Definitions change and what you provided as the definition should not be what p2w means. 
 

Paying and bypassing a grind does not put you at a mechanical advantage over others in a competitive sense or over NPCs where you may not have had the same advantage when not paying for things. Sure, it lets you “win” in the sense that you’re spending less time achieving the same things as f2p but you have no advantage within the frame of the game. Even this “win” may not be a win for others who find achieving things without spending money a “win.” In this sense, money spenders are p2l (pay to lose) as you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage compared to those who benefit from playing f2p as opposed to pay to complete which is what you’re referring to. P2W is an encompassing term that is not suitable here.

You still can’t even pay to complete this game as there are items you must achieve through actually playing the game to progress and complete certain content. There is no winning here.

P2W is a concept and cannot have an actual definition as modern business practices and what it means to “win” are ever changing. You cannot “pay to win” in a live service game that has no field in which players can out perform the other with items that are unobtainable to a player who does not spend money. You are already advantageous against an NPC as you are human and the game was designed to create an advantage for you.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[TeaHands]

3 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

 

do you forum mfs spend more than 5 seconds reading the #*!%ing post? OP is obviously talking about level cap.

Its been confirmed by the Warframe devs that none of us can read 😞 worst nerf I've received so far.

[Silligoose]

10 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Definitions change and what you provided as the definition should not be what p2w means. 
 

Paying and bypassing a grind does not put you at a mechanical advantage over others in a competitive sense or over NPCs where you may not have had the same advantage when not paying for things. Sure, it lets you “win” in the sense that you’re spending less time achieving the same things as f2p but you have no advantage within the frame of the game. Even this “win” may not be a win for others who find achieving things without spending money a “win.” In this sense, money spenders are p2l (pay to lose) as you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage compared to those who benefit from playing f2p as opposed to pay to complete which is what you’re referring to. P2W is an encompassing term that is not suitable here.

 

Your issue is in bold: It means what it means and you thinking 'it shouldn't😭' won't change that. You are letting your bias override logic and you are coming up with all sorts foolishness to justify the bias. 

I've provided the information. You are playing a p2w game. It doesn't mean it is good or bad, but that is the business model used and it influences decisions made by developers. Continue in ignorance or accept reality for what it is.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

5 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Your issue is in bold: It means what it means and you thinking 'it shouldn't😭' won't change that. You are letting your bias override logic and you are coming up with all sorts foolishness to justify the bias. 

I've provided the information. You are playing a p2w game. It doesn't mean it is good or bad, but that is the business model used and it influences decisions made by developers. Continue in ignorance or accept reality for what it is.

Lol you think broad, encompassing terminology actually has unchanging definitions or even definitions that apply to every online game. Nothing about what you have written follows any logic.

 

You’re thinking the P2W model describes the model Warframe uses and it simply does not.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Silligoose]

4 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Lol you think broad, encompassing terminology actually has unchanging definitions or even definitions that apply to every online game. Nothing about what you have written follows any logic.

 

You’re thinking the P2W model describes the model Warframe uses and it simply does not.

Looks like this horse wants to waffle on about not understanding context and what "win" means instead of drinking water. Cite your sources if you feel so strongly about it.

[Skoomaseller]

2 hours ago, TeaHands said:

Its been confirmed by the Warframe devs that none of us can read 😞 worst nerf I've received so far.

damn it... me too...

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Looks like this horse wants to waffle on about not understanding context and what "win" means instead of drinking water. Cite your sources if you feel so strongly about it.

It's unlikely I'll find a source as Pay to Win was coined as internet jargon to describe a business model in its infancy.  Most sources I've recently read have differing definitions. I'd argue its definition is still being formed this very instant. It seems as you don't even understand what the word "win" means so I suggest you look it up. It's used in the context of a competition by definition and there is objectively no competition in Warframe that can be "won" by completing a transaction with Digital Extremes.

This is just semantics and we've already derailed this thread. I stand by my original case and any further discussion regarding P2W would not be on topic. If you'd like to debate further, let's DM.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[(NSW)jhj82]

SP Circuit, Disruption, Cascade can quickly reach LVL cap. 

The game doesn't have an extract at 5 mentality; it has a "let's cry about something trivial" mentality.

[Silligoose]

56 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

It's unlikely I'll find a source as Pay to Win was coined as internet jargon to describe a business model in its infancy.  Most sources I've recently read have differing definitions. I'd argue its definition is still being formed this very instant. It seems as you don't even understand what the word "win" means so I suggest you look it up. It's used in the context of a competition by definition and there is objectively no competition in Warframe that can be "won" by completing a transaction with Digital Extremes.

This is just semantics and we've already derailed this thread. I stand by my original case and any further discussion regarding P2W would not be on topic. If you'd like to debate further, let's DM.

I've laid out the facts and stick you head in the sand looking for a vein of underground copium.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

lel you should change your name to "Last Word." In fact, let's both do it

3 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I've laid out the facts and stick you head in the sand looking for a vein of underground copium.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[VibingCat]

30 minutes ago, (NSW)jhj82 said:

SP Circuit, Disruption, Cascade can quickly reach LVL cap. 

The game doesn't have an extract at 5 mentality; it has a "let's cry about something trivial" mentality.

2-4 hours is quick? lol

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I get what OP is saying but what I'm getting at is we already have SP as "new game difficulty+". To now ALSO include another version of what that does will not really benefit the game in the way OP hopes. 

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

I will say this: I don't think level cap enemies will do anything to genuinely challenge you.  Rather, they will simply reduce the number of viable builds to the subset that are capable of delivering the necessary cheese.  For offense, True Damage.  For defense, invisibility or abilities that create temporary invulnerability.  And there you have it: the foundations of designs that will trivialize even the highest content in the game.

That said, I'm not opposed to players having access to max-level enemies if that's actually what they want, as long as there are absolutely no changes to rewards.  Unless there's a compelling reason not to, let the level-cappers have their level cap at-will.

[(PSN)Unstar]

8 hours ago, (PSN)RazorsEdge6267 said:

No thanks I'd rather go up against smart enemies where you have to think before you act, you got SP so no more brain dead enemies.

You'll never get this in Warframe.  Ever.  What you're describing is a completely different kind of game.

And honestly, game AI is never truly smart.  It's always predictable, always exploitable, once you know what to look for.  If you truly want smart enemies, what you're after is PvP.

[VibingCat]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

as long as there are absolutely no changes to rewards

Why not? What about same rewards but more of them?

[VibingCat]

11 hours ago, Malikili said:

Closest mission to get you a hard boost on tough enemies for quicker level cap is the highest level of lua circulus. Level 200 starting isn’t it? Also has corrupted enemies, thorax, sentients. That’s fun for levelcap. You can also use a necramech in it too, which can be fun for “testing your limit” across all types of loadouts. 
I used that mission for the one time I did a level cap, (Gloomruda/Rolling guard/no catalyzing shields, decaying dragon key), and it was slightly faster then if I did any other survival. 

Congrats, that's cool and impressive. Our wish is to make it shorter than 8-10 hours, possibly even less than one hour because every minute before level 1000-3000 is just too easy, so that most of the challenge isn't about our patience.

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 hours ago, PsychicKitty said:

This is interesting to me in a few ways.

So i am wondering then why don't people play the assassination and arena match missions on the steal path.  Seams like i never see anyone playing them.

 

It does raise some questions.

Questions like “If someone’s build is determined to be just enough for the content (which levelcap will never be balanced content), will they keep using that exact build or will it get refined so that it’s more than enough, whatever the cost of customisation?”.

I’m often under the impression that it’s not an in-mission fight that these players are looking for, with its chances of death and things to go wrong and control to be taken out of their hands, but rather another chance at solving a build puzzle in the Arsenal screen where the solution is more power