We need to start pushing Pablo harder about stat sticks (respectfully, of course)

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Your arguments to absurdity are a joke.

No, this is a real consideration that's completely applicable to games in practice. If you kill an enemy in one shot of your weapon, and you also have Spores deal 50% of the health of each enemy in damage by the time you get to shoot it, you might think your Spores did half the work, but in reality your Spores did nothing.

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Things can be intended and still be abused , it's the scope , frequency and intent of the (ab)user that can help classify it further.

Atlas I rarely see , khora on the other hand.

And I really dont see the abusive part in using the system here as intended with the options presented to us by DE. It's like saying you abuse Baruuk by running 13% duration to easily utilize his restraint mechanic in order to keep his Serene Storm active 24/7. Plus Khora isnt miles above other frames either by building all out for her whip with the best options available, she is still a moderately used frame. It is just that those options actually makes her whip work, more notably together with her augment. Which isnt much unlike other frames building to utilize a high damage skill. But for some reason, because Khora (and Atlas) need a stat stick to get any form of damage out of those skills it is uhm abuse? Even when we have frames that doesnt need stat sticks to pull off massive damage with their skills? Or are we abusing them aswell by just adding run of the mill mods to increase their numbers of death and destruction? I'd say Khora and Atlas make use of a crutch since without their stat sticks they are cripples.

What we see or not doesnt really matter. I go on what I can experience solo with the frames. If I went on what I see in groups, neither Atlas or Khora exsist in the game.

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, this is a real consideration that's completely applicable to games in practice. If you kill an enemy in one shot of your weapon, and you also have Spores deal 50% of the health of each enemy in damage by the time you get to shoot it, you might think your Spores did half the work, but in reality your Spores did nothing.

Congratulations, you just decribed 99% of the skills in the game.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[0_The_F00l]

48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I really dont see the abusive part in using the system here as intended with the options presented to us by DE. It's like saying you abuse Baruuk by running 13% duration to easily utilize his restraint mechanic in order to keep his Serene Storm active 24/7. Plus Khora isnt miles above other frames either by building all out for her whip with the best options available, she is still a moderately used frame. It is just that those options actually makes her whip work, more notably together with her augment. Which isnt much unlike other frames building to utilize a high damage skill. But for some reason, because Khora (and Atlas) need a stat stick to get any form of damage out of those skills it is uhm abuse? Even when we have frames that doesnt need stat sticks to pull off massive damage with their skills? Or are we abusing them aswell by just adding run of the mill mods to increase their numbers of death and destruction? I'd say Khora and Atlas make use of a crutch since without their stat sticks they are cripples.

i dont know if the examples suit the context of what i was trying to say. You also cant gauge the intent by looking at the stats. You need to see the actual gameplay and how it is utilized to make a judgement on whether its abusive or not.

Also you dont need to have the most powerful damage output to be abusive ,notice i never used the power as a reference for what i was describing.

Do i feel they are a Crutch? sure , i dont like crutches either.

[Kancelas]

It's about time we leave stat sticks behind for good. Some players will be pissed that stat sticks will be going away, with the thousands of plat spent on a now useless riven or in the worst case scenario, multiple rivens, but it's the right decision for the long term health of the game. 

[SneakyErvin]

24 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

i dont know if the examples suit the context of what i was trying to say. You also cant gauge the intent by looking at the stats. You need to see the actual gameplay and how it is utilized to make a judgement on whether its abusive or not.

Also you dont need to have the most powerful damage output to be abusive ,notice i never used the power as a reference for what i was describing.

Do i feel they are a Crutch? sure , i dont like crutches either.

If you arent looking at the power then what are you looking at? Since power is really the only metric we can go on since it is what makes the building with sticks included comparable to building normal skills. The sticks doesnt take them above and beyond, they help them reach a useful state and then improve them to a great state with better sticks used. Not unlike how regular modding makes a skill good and then great modding makes the skill great.

I mean, if we arent looking stats nor power to gauge intent, then what are we looking at? And what do you mean by looking at gameplay to make the judgement? It isnt whipclaw that is abusive if you look at her in groups, it is Strangledome which hogs all enemies and slows down the pace of the mission, more so now when Whipclaw requires LoS. Whipclaw itself is no more or less abusive than a AoE gun, with the downside of having to build up combo and augment before actually dealing comparable damage. With Strangledome it does alot more, but then again we have other frames that do the same through synergy and without a need for a stat stick. So what exactly is the abuse with Khora?

[0_The_F00l]

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you arent looking at the power then what are you looking at? Since power is really the only metric we can go on since it is what makes the building with sticks included comparable to building normal skills. The sticks doesnt take them above and beyond, they help them reach a useful state and then improve them to a great state with better sticks used. Not unlike how regular modding makes a skill good and then great modding makes the skill great.

I mean, if we arent looking stats nor power to gauge intent, then what are we looking at? And what do you mean by looking at gameplay to make the judgement? It isnt whipclaw that is abusive if you look at her in groups, it is Strangledome which hogs all enemies and slows down the pace of the mission, more so now when Whipclaw requires LoS. Whipclaw itself is no more or less abusive than a AoE gun, with the downside of having to build up combo and augment before actually dealing comparable damage. With Strangledome it does alot more, but then again we have other frames that do the same through synergy and without a need for a stat stick. So what exactly is the abuse with Khora?

The repeated use of it over anything else? Doing the same thing over and over irrespective of how it affects the rest of the squad?

It is indeed the combination of strangledome and whipclaw that i find abusive when used in a way that sucks the life out of anyone elses game.

There are indeed other frames that can be just as abusive.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is completely faulty thinking. You can deal 1 damage to a million enemies, that's technically a million damage, but in practice it has absolutely zero value.

11 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

If you kill an enemy in one shot of your weapon, and you also have Spores deal 50% of the health of each enemy in damage by the time you get to shoot it, you might think your Spores did half the work, but in reality your Spores did nothing.

So you're literally just going to ignore the rest of the explanation, Traum?

You're just going to ignore the original context of the comments you started arguing?

I pointed out that the point of 200k seeming like a lot to a person was kind of a bad take because it doesn't do much to an enemy with over 5 million EHP. Meaning that you need to be doing that 200k to that enemy 26 or so times before they're dead.

That's not wrong.

And I then pointed out that Saryn can actually deal the equivalent level of damage out, not just because they can scale up, but because they have utility with it. Being the right element, a functional status type, and also ticking that damage every second while you're not even doing anything.

The how you deal that damage is more important than the amount of damage you deal.

Because 200k damage to an enemy with only 20% of the armour they had before, is suddenly a lot more damage in effect. A Heavy Gunner at level 190 with the millions of effective health? Is suddenly down to under 800k effective health in just a few ticks.

With that, the damage is then relevant. And it can kill enemies.

Because Spores didn't do nothing. It allowed your gun that you've modded to deal 1 million damage per shot to actually kill that enemy that normally would have 5 million EHP in only one shot instead of 5 shots.

How have you played this game for so long and not realised this kind of basic force multiplier?

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because Spores didn't do nothing. It allowed your gun that you've modded to deal 1 million damage per shot to actually kill that enemy that normally would have 5 million EHP in only one shot instead of 5 shots.

No, I disagree with everything you say. First of all, Landslide does not deal 200k damage but a lot more than that. A lot more. Second, we have Slash procs so Corrosive procs aren't really relevant unless you use sub-par weapons in the first place.

No matter how you twist and turn it, Landslide deals vastly more damage than Spores do.

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

[...]

Here, some random build I cobbled together with 139 ability strength:

The enemies kept dying before I could get the 4x Landslide combo because the damage was too high. And I used no riven, no Incarnon weapon (their evolutions work on Landslide), etc. - in other words, you can easily deal 20 times that damage. But then again even at level cap, enemies only have about 3m HP which this already oneshots.

Compare with Spores, dealing 10 damage, and then another +14 damage per second, reaching 100k after a minimum of 2 full hours (a bit less if you have more strength) yeah, your whole argument doesn't make any sense. Like at all.

[Lord_Drod]

Why would DE ever do this though, when they make a lot of money off plat and rivens for these stat sticks?  So they are just going to remove them and what will fill that void?  There's quite a lot of trading surrounded purely on stat sticks.

[Berzerkules]

On 2023-11-24 at 11:00 PM, Hexerin said:

 To give an example, I'd personally like to be able to use Dual Keres on Khora (because they're literally her melee weapon). However, because stat stick mechanics, I'm forced to use Ceramic Dagger (w/ incarnon).

This sounds like something someone that doesn't play Khora would say. If you actually played the frame you would know that you can use literally any weapon without a riven to scale way past the point that most players reach. Ceramic dagger incarnon is not necessary, it might be bis but the Dual Keres primed or not will work just fine with or without a riven. Khora was whipping the **** out of everything w/o a riven way before incarnon weapons were a thing. 

While I don't really like the idea of stat sticks I know that DE will totally scuff whatever they implement to replace them. And if they did change stat sticks any frame that "requires" one would be left in a nearly unplayable state for an undetermined amount of time. 

It really doesn't matter to me either way because I don't even play Khora anymore since the los thing, the thrill is gone. It sure would suck for those that do though. 

[Hexerin]

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

This sounds like something someone that doesn't play Khora would say.

But on a more serious note. No, I don't really play Khora. Her frame design is not to my tastes (too many angles, rigid idle stance, Prime skin is just impossible to work with, etc), and her kit is just kind of boring to me ultimately. I just used her as the example, because the only other frame with a pseudo exalt that I use is Gara.

In Gara's case, the stat stick isn't technically mandatory, because you don't use the pseudo exalt as a weapon. You'll scale slower if you don't use a proper stat stick, but Gara scales so ludicrously hard that it's fine (generally). Her pseudo exalt isn't used as a weapon, it's a tool to channel the stats of your melee weapon into Shatter Shield damage output. So long as you don't screw up and lose your Shatter Shield, you can get away with not using a stat stick. To be fair though, that's easier said than done.

[Lord_Drod]

10 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Here, some random build I cobbled together with 139 ability strength:

The enemies kept dying before I could get the 4x Landslide combo because the damage was too high. And I used no riven, no Incarnon weapon (their evolutions work on Landslide), etc. - in other words, you can easily deal 20 times that damage. But then again even at level cap, enemies only have about 3m HP which this already oneshots.

Compare with Spores, dealing 10 damage, and then another +14 damage per second, reaching 100k after a minimum of 2 full hours (a bit less if you have more strength) yeah, your whole argument doesn't make any sense. Like at all.

Ah Yes, Atlas, the DPS King.  Teach us your ways.  Atlas, the level cap destroyer, who also needs a macro to even play this style.  Showing some pointless damage numbers again to prove some irrelevant point that is missed by most of the community who thinks Atlas sucks.  Most of us just aren't on your level of expertise.

[Berzerkules]

28 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

But on a more serious note. No, I don't really play Khora. Her frame design is not to my tastes (too many angles, rigid idle stance, Prime skin is just impossible to work with, etc), and her kit is just kind of boring to me ultimately. I just used her as the example, because the only other frame with a pseudo exalt that I use is Gara.

In Gara's case, the stat stick isn't technically mandatory, because you don't use the pseudo exalt as a weapon. You'll scale slower if you don't use a proper stat stick, but Gara scales so ludicrously hard that it's fine (generally). Her pseudo exalt isn't used as a weapon, it's a tool to channel the stats of your melee weapon into Shatter Shield damage output. So long as you don't screw up and lose your Shatter Shield, you can get away with not using a stat stick. To be fair though, that's easier said than done.

Do you even play Gara that much? I just don't get the point of pushing DE to change things that you don't even use regularly or have any real outcome on how you play the game.

In Khora's case why would you even use a melee weapon when whipclaw is a better melee with 20m range and a 10m aoe? If her whipclaw gets borked by DE removing stat sticks for pseudoexalted abilities she's going to have no reliable way to deal with enemies in her dome. This effectively gives her 2 worthless abilities. Now she's left with ensnare and venari which is near worthless already since it's her passive. So, 1 real ability left. 

It would be nice if DE could simultaneously remove stat sticks and fix the abilities to preform similarly but we know that's not how DE works. You're asking for DE to effectively kill a frame that you admittedly don't even play because her aesthetics don't appeal to you. 

[Hexerin]

48 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Do you even play Gara that much? I just don't get the point of pushing DE to change things that you don't even use regularly or have any real outcome on how you play the game.

In Khora's case why would you even use a melee weapon when whipclaw is a better melee with 20m range and a 10m aoe? If her whipclaw gets borked by DE removing stat sticks for pseudoexalted abilities she's going to have no reliable way to deal with enemies in her dome. This effectively gives her 2 worthless abilities. Now she's left with ensnare and venari which is near worthless already since it's her passive. So, 1 real ability left. 

It would be nice if DE could simultaneously remove stat sticks and fix the abilities to preform similarly but we know that's not how DE works. You're asking for DE to effectively kill a frame that you admittedly don't even play because her aesthetics don't appeal to you. 

Ah, so you're not actually interested in a good faith discussion. Good to know, I'll be dropping responses to you here.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The repeated use of it over anything else? Doing the same thing over and over irrespective of how it affects the rest of the squad?

It is indeed the combination of strangledome and whipclaw that i find abusive when used in a way that sucks the life out of anyone elses game.

There are indeed other frames that can be just as abusive.

 

And this is far from Khora being a special case and has very little to do with stat sticks. You are more or less describing every damage dealing frame or loadout carrying an AoE.

Also, is it really abuse to bring an AoE option to modes where AoE is promoted and expected?

13 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Here, some random build I cobbled together with 139 ability strength:

The enemies kept dying before I could get the 4x Landslide combo because the damage was too high. And I used no riven, no Incarnon weapon (their evolutions work on Landslide), etc. - in other words, you can easily deal 20 times that damage. But then again even at level cap, enemies only have about 3m HP which this already oneshots.

Compare with Spores, dealing 10 damage, and then another +14 damage per second, reaching 100k after a minimum of 2 full hours (a bit less if you have more strength) yeah, your whole argument doesn't make any sense. Like at all.

But those arent even remotely comparable skills. Spores is more or less map wide, Landslide hits enemies within 2-6m at base, likely somewhere between 3-10m with some range modding. Obviously Landslide needs to do alot more damage due to the far lower uptime and need for constant use. Spores should be compared to other far reaching AoE, which we dont have very many with massive damage output. We however have plenty that can be compared to Landslide, either mobile or stationary. And this is if we completely ignore the actual reason for spores, the corrosive debuff, which again is more or less map wide. So whenever you eventually get to the targets afflicted by spores they'll have far less armor to stop your weapons.

And it doesnt stop there, since you need to consider the kit as a whole. Saryn effectively has something to handle every single faction very effectively. Her skills are also not designed around direct killing, her skills are designed around buffing weapons she uses while debuffing the enemy so those weapons deal more damage, while the skills also serve well to wipe out trash (or everything but ancients if we face infested).

If we are to compare kit vs kit you suddenly end up with a full useful kit for Saryn and 2 skills for Atlas, where you can potentially salvage his 4 aswell by replacing 2 with Nourish in order to turn Rumblers into living viral spreaders.

[0_The_F00l]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And this is far from Khora being a special case and has very little to do with stat sticks. You are more or less describing every damage dealing frame or loadout carrying an AoE.

Check my original comment. I never said it was only khora and her stat stick that does it.

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, is it really abuse to bring an AoE option to modes where AoE is promoted and expected?

Depends on how you choose to use it and impacts the rest of the squad.

[SneakyErvin]

24 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Check my original comment. I never said it was only khora and her stat stick that does it.

Depends on how you choose to use it and impacts the rest of the squad.

I mean the post I answered to in a thread about stat sticks did say...

On 2023-11-26 at 4:56 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

An argument between khora abusers and most other players

It is kinda hard to take it any other way at that point. And the way you answered me after that didnt really help clarify what you supposedly ment either. Then you went on and said it wasnt about power and stats etc. Which kinda also makes it even more vague, since how exactly does the Khora then abuse through her damage if it isnt about the power of it resulting in killing enemies before others have a chance? I mean we have plenty of frames abusive in lower level content, but the higher we get the easier it is to play around them since they no longer 1HK. So stats and power must clearly have something to do with it, or?

[0_The_F00l]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean the post I answered to in a thread about stat sticks did say...

It is kinda hard to take it any other way at that point. And the way you answered me after that didnt really help clarify what you supposedly ment either. Then you went on and said it wasnt about power and stats etc. Which kinda also makes it even more vague, since how exactly does the Khora then abuse through her damage if it isnt about the power of it resulting in killing enemies before others have a chance? I mean we have plenty of frames abusive in lower level content, but the higher we get the easier it is to play around them since they no longer 1HK. So stats and power must clearly have something to do with it, or?

Did you read the rest of it and have any issues about the comments specifically to stat sticks and their abilities ? No you chose to  specifically argue about the frame and a comment not directed at anyone in particular.

You made it up in your head that it was targetting you perhaps ? Or that anyone that uses a khora abuses her ? Neither of which was what was implied nor was it true. If you wanted clarity on what was implied you could have asked. 

As the thread seems to be having clear camps of those that use stat stick mostly in conjunction with khora and those that use other frames as well, that was here the statement came from.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Landslide hits enemies within 2-6m at base, likely somewhere between 3-10m

That's ridiculous. If you mod Saryn for 150% range she's not going to work at all.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

the actual reason for spores, the corrosive debuff

This debuff has absolutely zero effect on Slash procs, which is the preferred way of killing enemies. So the most this can do is make bad weapons usable, but not in any way increase the damage of already good weapons.

I was simply responding to the claim that Spores deal comparable damage to Landslide, and this claim was made by pretending that Landslide deals 200k damage (which I have proven false), and that the spread out chip damage that Spores do among all enemies should be considered equal to damage that can directly kills enemies (which is just objectively false on principle).

Edited November 28, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's ridiculous. If you mod Saryn for 150% range she's not going to work at all.

This debuff has absolutely zero effect on Slash procs, which is the preferred way of killing enemies. So the most this can do is make bad weapons usable, but not in any way increase the damage of already good weapons.

I was simply responding to the claim that Spores deal comparable damage to Landslide, and this claim was made by pretending that Landslide deals 200k damage (which I have proven false), and that the spread out chip damage that Spores do among all enemies should be considered equal to damage that can directly kills enemies (which is just objectively false on principle).

Wow! You dont say!? I'm getting a Lloyd-ish "we've landed on the moon!" vibe here. What on earth does Saryns modding have to do with Atlas modding? You just fail more and more at your absurd comparisons. Two widely different frames that rely on different modding and different approaches to killing enemies.

You'll still deal damage from your weapons and the skill still deals damage to the mob so less slash procs need to work if you feel some odd need to slot slash on Saryn that is. It also improves how much damage your Lash will deal through your weapon by facing less armor. Honestly I cant recall the last time I actually used slash on a single weapon outside of Garuda through Seeking Talons.

It does deal comparable damage since it deals it to the whole map, resulting in less time needed per mob when you get to dealing with them. You have to remember that Spores is nearly fully passive and deals damage to everything if affects each second while Landslide is used instead of your weapon through manual use and "melee". Saryn has access to weapons as Spores deal their damage and debuffs aswell. Now if Spores locked out weapon use, sure you'd have a point since then Saryn would all of a sudden also rely on killing through skills, but that isnt even remotely the case. It is in the end a game where KPM matters the most and while Atlas can pull of high KPM, Saryn will do it better since she does it over long distances across rooms.

47 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Did you read the rest of it and have any issues about the comments specifically to stat sticks and their abilities ? No you chose to  specifically argue about the frame and a comment not directed at anyone in particular.

You made it up in your head that it was targetting you perhaps ? Or that anyone that uses a khora abuses her ? Neither of which was what was implied nor was it true. If you wanted clarity on what was implied you could have asked. 

As the thread seems to be having clear camps of those that use stat stick mostly in conjunction with khora and those that use other frames as well, that was here the statement came from.

I did read them all, and few of them are actually bringing up Khora specifically. Some do, most dont. Talk is generally about stat sticks and with comparisons to exalteds etc. Yet for some reason, you whom obviously also read it all I assume, got it to something about Khora? And no clearly it wasnt about me, I was more questioning how stat sticking is abuse since the general context of the thread has been about stat sticks overall and exalted as the other "mod frame skills" option.

Also why should I have asked about something that would mostly come natural from someone if someone else misinterprets what they ment? Instead you went on to add further confusions to what you now claim you actually ment, instead of just simply saying in your first reply to me "oh no, that isnt what I ment" at which point I would have gone "cool cool".

What posts show you some clear Khora vs others camp? I see generic comments, quite sensible overall with no specific "zomg mah Khorawawawa!" or similar. I see mostly "just removing stat sticks wont help" and some that seem to think just removing them and doing nothing else will work and leave the frames fine (do those people even play any of those frames?). I'm all for a removal of stat sticks and modding baked into the skills similar to exalteds, with stats reworked to make them all actually useful and fairly balanced to eachother.

[Traumtulpe]

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

[...]

You're being ridiculous, acting as if Atlas can't have more than 150% range while at the same time assuming >200% range on Saryn (because her Spores are not passive as you say with insufficient range).

Your claim that you never use Slash procs from weapons just as much. So you never use Hunter Munitions? This only proves further that you have no clue what you are doing/talking about.

There is no use arguing with you if you are going to make the most ridiculous and unrealistic assumtions, just for the sake of arguing.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[0_The_F00l]

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I did read them all,

I meant my comments highlighting changes to ability stats or allowing weapon modding it in my first post in this thread.

This part specifically:

On 2023-11-26 at 9:26 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

I personally hate stat sticks as a concept , and would be very happy to see them removed from the game.

This may need one of two things to happen , 

The base abilities that depend on such things to be changed ,

Or 

There be a moddable weapon that gives all the bonuses you expect.

We already have weapons that are not exalted and still modded seperately , so the second option is not that far off as a possibility.

 

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

and few of them are actually bringing up Khora specifically. Some do, most dont. Talk is generally about stat sticks and with comparisons to exalteds etc. Yet for some reason, you whom obviously also read it all I assume, got it to something about Khora? And no clearly it wasnt about me, I was more questioning how stat sticking is abuse since the general context of the thread has been about stat sticks overall and exalted as the other "mod frame skills" option.

I guess i was not clear about what i meant if that is your inference. When it comes to stat sticks it usually invites Khora players , like bees to unpollinated flowers, and those that abuse her tend to be the most vocal and defensive about any changes and would probably be the majority. It was more about what i expect the discussion to be driven by than anything else.

I do admit it has been relatively civil so far. And my original assumption has been rather off regarding the same (though it is still vocal in certain instances and defensive for completely different things).

36 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also why should I have asked about something that would mostly come natural from someone if someone else misinterprets what they ment? Instead you went on to add further confusions to what you now claim you actually ment, instead of just simply saying in your first reply to me "oh no, that isnt what I ment" at which point I would have gone "cool cool".

Because you started with the questioning of the term abuse and did not try to get the context in which the original statement was made. My reverts were mostly related to what is termed as abuse after that. Which i still stand by ,but now in hindsight the confusion could probably have been avoided.

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What posts show you some clear Khora vs others camp? I see generic comments, quite sensible overall with no specific "zomg mah Khorawawawa!" or similar. I see mostly "just removing stat sticks wont help" and some that seem to think just removing them and doing nothing else will work and leave the frames fine (do those people even play any of those frames?). I'm all for a removal of stat sticks and modding baked into the skills similar to exalteds, with stats reworked to make them all actually useful and fairly balanced to eachother.

This is a fair admonishment , there are far fewer of those than i expected after the first few posts. and the discussion is actually fairly balanced out (with some outliers) .

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

The enemies kept dying before I could get the 4x Landslide combo because the damage was too high. And I used no riven, no Incarnon weapon (their evolutions work on Landslide), etc. - in other words, you can easily deal 20 times that damage. But then again even at level cap, enemies only have about 3m HP which this already oneshots.

Compare with Spores, dealing 10 damage, and then another +14 damage per second, reaching 100k after a minimum of 2 full hours (a bit less if you have more strength) yeah, your whole argument doesn't make any sense. Like at all.

[Clears throat for extreme British Sarcasm]

Yes, because there's absolutely only ever 20 enemies in a Survival mission that all spawn in the same place.

And Spores totally only scales up over 2 hours instead of 2 minutes because the damage scaling absolutely isn't affected by both Strength and the number of spores that are active so that it definitely can't scale at hundreds or even more than a thousand per second once you're in an enemy dense area.

And things other than Bleed are totally not affected by Corrosive procs allowing you to take builds that deal different kinds of damage and make them relevant at higher levels. Because that scaling to 3 million health is certainly only affected by Bleed instead of by every other form of damage when you take off the armour. Armour which, I might add, definitely doesn't make a basic Steel Path Heavy Gunner have more than 5 million EHP at level 120.

I definitely haven't taken Saryn to multiple-hour Survival runs to test the reworks in turn to Spores, the Corrosive status effect, and the enemy Armour Scaling changes that were applied over time, so absolutely cannot attest directly to its effectiveness at killing enemies effortlessly as long as you remember to shoot those enemies with Toxic Lash active.

[/British Sarcasm]

My friend, you're arguing that one of the most comprehensively scaling damage abilities in the game isn't in any way comparable to Atlas' Landslide, which, no matter how many funny numbers you throw onto the screen, simply does not apply those numbers to the enemies as effectively, and requires some form of Stat Stick to even reach those numbers. Saryn's Spores still are, to this day, one of the easiest ways to scale through missions that actually require incredibly fast ramp-up like Sanctuary Onslaught, frequently reaching thousands of damage per tick, per spore, within 2 minutes. All you need is a gun or melee, any one, not even modded.

It's like you're purposefully, and blindly, refusing to see how an ability works just to try and prove something that isn't even the point of the thread.

The entire discussion that we're having came from the simple point that damage isn't about what numbers you deal, it's about how you deal that damage.

Saryn is easier, wider affecting, requires minimal input compared to Atlas, and both the damage and the status enable other damage and status. Atlas can reach high numbers over a short combo, but can't apply it to the same number of enemies and has to keep pressing the button over and over to maintain it.

These two things are not the same, and one is clearly more functional than the other.

And more specifically to the point of the thread, one of them relies on a janky and unclear system of a stat stick, and should be good without it.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

23 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Here, some random build I cobbled together with 139 ability strength:

The enemies kept dying before I could get the 4x Landslide combo because the damage was too high. And I used no riven, no Incarnon weapon (their evolutions work on Landslide), etc. - in other words, you can easily deal 20 times that damage. But then again even at level cap, enemies only have about 3m HP which this already oneshots.

Compare with Spores, dealing 10 damage, and then another +14 damage per second, reaching 100k after a minimum of 2 full hours (a bit less if you have more strength) yeah, your whole argument doesn't make any sense. Like at all.

Yeah, no. As an Atlas main this is really nowhere near a fair example.

Atlas reaches those fairly high numbers through odd combinations, like you having Rubble fully stacked with his Augment, a fully maxed Arcane and Crit help from an Adarza Kavat on top of some other buffs I'm not recognizing currently. I'm not really sure why you're even bringing up Power Strength with Atlas either, ironically it isn't nearly as important as it is for other Warframes because he has so many outside things to help Landslide scale. Usually, just making Landslide Crit alone is enough to wipe out most content in one or two punches. For raw initial damage, of course Landslide is going to be better, it's scaling from Melee for crying out loud. That's not how the game works though, even as you conveniently ignore additional damage from things like Viral and Corrosive not really applying to Atlas since Landslides status is dogwater. If you're going to allow Atlas to constantly spam his punch, then I would expect Saryn to consistently spam Spores and reach him fairly quickly. Three rooms away, while being able to just stand still and make a sandwich.

Here's the problem though, you're comparing Atlas' "everything and the kitchen sink" mentality to Saryn. The Warframe who has literal infinite scaling AoE damage through mods like Acid Shells with Toxic Lash (something she can do with not even half of the effort Atlas requires), better DPS overall thanks to her massive range and more powerful elemental effects, she can even have more versatility in her builds for allies or herself with damage from her own weird combos like Ability Cast Speed affecting Spore tick rate. If you're going as far as using multiple items to scale one ability better while still acting as if Saryn and her entire kit can't do the same thing and push out much higher numbers, let alone with Spore damage calculation, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Dealing higher raw damage as Atlas to a small group is just a drop in the bucket, even with as much Range as possible, you're hardly clearing out as many enemies as Saryn is without extra help from grouping abilities and the like.

Atlas requires far more effort and time investment just to reach semi-comparable damage in a much smaller area. You have constant upkeep costs to juggle and all Saryn has to do is ... play the game normally. Then, if Saryn feels like juggling, she can easily outpace 99% of the roster because her scaling is still absurd. Without needing a lot of specific things to help her work faster.

Edited November 28, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog