We need an URGENT rework of trading system

[Slayer-.]

12 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

These items are already worthless, you don't realize how much stuff is produced in China. You don't realize how many players made 100K+ platinum on selling overpriced stuff.

Source for the platinum amount? I've heard a rumour that they also use bots to do actions over there regarding trading, not sure about that though.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

54 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Source for the platinum amount? I've heard a rumour that they also use bots to do actions over there regarding trading, not sure about that though.

Of course they use bots, for afk farming and Warframe market 

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

This is bullS#&$. If you work at DE, it means you're a professional developer with 100K+ salary, there is no way you don't understand such a basic thing.

Pfftt....

HahahahahhahHAHAHAH!

DE, when developing Warframe, was a nearly dead studio. Warframe was their hail mary play, it's a fully documented thing with years of interviews. 100K salaries? They barely had the lights on.

Before doing Warframe all they'd worked on was Dark Sector and contributed to other studios during their game dev cycles.

If you don't even know the basics, don't make sweeping statements. They make you look ridiculous.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Pfftt....

HahahahahhahHAHAHAH!

DE, when developing Warframe, was a nearly dead studio. Warframe was their hail mary play, it's a fully documented thing with years of interviews. 100K salaries? They barely had the lights on.

Before doing Warframe all they'd worked on was Dark Sector and contributed to other studios during their game dev cycles.

If you don't even know the basics, don't make sweeping statements. They make you look ridiculous.

You lack intelligence my fellow, DE is more than 30 years old.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-01-02 at 4:51 PM, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Dear ECHOSIERRA with 7 posts who just joined Warframe on December 22, 2023

warframe.market is already an auction house, I am only asking for quality of life

And what is wrong with automation? Trading is automated IRL, why would it not be automated in game? What's wrong?

Dear mister condescending over a (probable) bug.

I mean let's start with the fact my glyph is from mesa prime access, which dropped december 18th 2018. I suppose a devil's advocate could argue that with prime resurgence being a thing, that *maybe* that doesnt prove i was around at least that far back, but come on.

I have thousands of hours on this game. I have alot more than 7 posts. And i joined alot earlier than december 2022. Im guessing something involving cross save is bugged with the forum. 

So good job being condescending about assumptions that aren't even true.

 

But even if they were true, that's irrelevant.

You dont need thousands of hours of time in the game or however many forum posts to realize basic principles of economics apply to the game just like they would anywhere else. 

My points arent wrong, and you did absolutely nothing to even *try* to actually address them.

Also. 

If warframe market is "already an auction house" then we already have an auction house and there's no point in adding one is there?

 

Unless of course, you mean to tell me, that warframe market isnt the same thing afterall.

 

"I wanna be able to use an in game auction house to dump all my things in and then come back to free plat without effort on my part" is a seductive pipe dream. 

Edited January 4 by ECCHOSIERRA

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

On 1/1/2024 at 3:15 AM, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

 it's still extremely inconvenient 

They will never make trading more convenient,   That would mean they would make less money,   Believe it or not there’s a lot of players who don’t engage with the trading system but instead spend money,   There’s just no business sense in improving it,   DE are not the saints of video game development trust me.   or we still wouldn’t be dealing with build time gates,       
 

They are a business.  And as a free to play a game, their model is still okay,   Even though literally everything in the game is monetised.  It’s still mostly paid to skip,  pay for convenience,   And after looking at Diablo 4s cash shop

I really can’t complain.  

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

16 hours ago, (PSN)SolarPhantom82 said:

They will never make trading more convenient,   That would mean they would make less money,   Believe it or not there’s a lot of players who don’t engage with the trading system but instead spend money,   There’s just no business sense in improving it,   DE are not the saints of video game development trust me.   or we still wouldn’t be dealing with build time gates,       
 

They are a business.  And as a free to play a game, their model is still okay,   Even though literally everything in the game is monetised.  It’s still mostly paid to skip,  pay for convenience,   And after looking at Diablo 4s cash shop

I really can’t complain.  

What's the deal with Diablo 4 cash shop? I uninstalled after completing the story.

 

17 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

"I wanna be able to use an in game auction house to dump all my things in and then come back to free plat without effort on my part"

I want this

[Aruquae]

17 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

You lack intelligence my fellow, DE is more than 30 years old.

Most people are more than 30 years old, and they’re in crippling debt with unstable lives. What’s your point?

Edited January 4 by Aruquae
*they’e

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

41 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Most people are more than 30 years old, and they’re in crippling debt with unstable lives. What’s your point?

Most trees are more than 30 years old. How is this related to DE being 30 years old?

Edited January 4 by NorthernDarkIceSoul

[Aruquae]

11 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Most trees are more than 30 years old. How is this related to DE being 30 years old?

Ahhh… wait, you don’t get it? 
The example is used to show years don’t mean money if you’re not able to make said money. 

[sly_squash]

I'll always upvote an auction house thread.

Trading improvements are literally the only updates I care about.  If not full-fledged auction house at least fixes and improvements to the many, many trading bugs and issues are sorely needed.  Every patch that doesn't improve trading is a failure afaic.  :>

Praise be to the one fix we got:  a dojo spawn pad so people would stop spawning in railjack and stalling the trades even longer than they already take.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

9 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

I want this

Yeah, and aside from how lazy and entitled that is joke would be on you when instead of "only" having to compete with whoever is online and in trade chat at the specific moment you want to sell something, youd have to compete with *everyone* who has whatever youre trying to sell period, online or not, on wf market or not.

 

It would be *harder*, not easier, for you to get "free" plat. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

You lack intelligence my fellow, DE is more than 30 years old.

Yeah, and they never worked with Peer to Peer networked games before.

And the company being more than 30 years old doesn't change the facts I mentioned; they worked as a support studio for other developers, and on Dark Sector. And when they were pitching Warframe they were only one chance away from shuttering the studio permanently.

It's been in, like, three different documentaries from different news outlets for its remarkable return to strength from nearly nothing a little over a decade ago.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

I'll always upvote an auction house thread.

Trading improvements are literally the only updates I care about.  If not full-fledged auction house at least fixes and improvements to the many, many trading bugs and issues are sorely needed.  Every patch that doesn't improve trading is a failure afaic.  :>

Praise be to the one fix we got:  a dojo spawn pad so people would stop spawning in railjack and stalling the trades even longer than they already take.

A lot of those improvements can be fixed by players. 

People with PCs from 1998 shouldn't be complaining. 

And a simple "fast travel" to literally any location in a dojo with make the person appear on the trading list at the trade console.

[makaloff95]

On 2023-12-31 at 6:31 PM, quxier said:

No. You can use trading chat.

NO, you can trade in Maroo's bizarre... I mean bazar or maybe even in relays (?).

That's honestly what makes me not trade too much when I had old pc (laggy, need to load dojo because it freezes game etc). With new pc it's much faster but I would like to have some kind of "you want to trade" message OR at least invite to my ship to trade.

 

trading chat is garbage and you will get scammed essentially since people sell for overprice and buy for underprice, warframe market is the go to if you want a actual good experience with trading.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

18 minutes ago, makaloff95 said:

trading chat is garbage and you will get scammed essentially since people sell for overprice and buy for underprice, warframe market is the go to if you want a actual good experience with trading.

That's more the individual not having the ability to say "nty" or actually know the price of something.

If I gave you a multiple choice question about the price of a frame and one answer said "220 to 350 plat"....your reaction as a functioning sapien should be "it's clearly not that answer...."

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

A lot of those improvements can be fixed by players. 

People with PCs from 1998 shouldn't be complaining. 

And a simple "fast travel" to literally any location in a dojo with make the person appear on the trading list at the trade console.

Do you know how many people know about fast travel fix? 1 or 2. I get like 10 people a day complaining about me not sending trades or people who cannot even join my dojo. You know nothing about trading and you are a console player. Why would you even post in this thread defending DE? Makes no sense whatsoever.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, and they never worked with Peer to Peer networked games before.

And the company being more than 30 years old doesn't change the facts I mentioned; they worked as a support studio for other developers, and on Dark Sector. And when they were pitching Warframe they were only one chance away from shuttering the studio permanently.

It's been in, like, three different documentaries from different news outlets for its remarkable return to strength from nearly nothing a little over a decade ago.

Warframe is not a "peer-to-peer" game, all state is on DE's servers. Learn something before making a post.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

31 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Do you know how many people know about fast travel fix? 1 or 2. I get like 10 people a day complaining about me not sending trades or people who cannot even join my dojo. You know nothing about trading and you are a console player. Why would you even post in this thread defending DE? Makes no sense whatsoever.

Warframe is not a "peer-to-peer" game, all state is on DE's servers. Learn something before making a post.

Player ignorance isn't an excuse. The options button is easily accessible and pressable, and fast travel is the 2nd option at the top of the menu.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Player ignorance isn't an excuse. The options button is easily accessible and pressable, and fast travel is the 2nd option at the top of the menu.

Lack of knowledge and ignorance are different things, and it's supposed to be DE's responsibility to fix bug, not to have players find workarounds and use them.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

8 hours ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Do you know how many people know about fast travel fix? 1 or 2. I get like 10 people a day complaining about me not sending trades or people who cannot even join my dojo. You know nothing about trading and you are a console player. Why would you even post in this thread defending DE? Makes no sense whatsoever.

Warframe is not a "peer-to-peer" game, all state is on DE's servers. Learn something before making a post.

>warframe is not peer to peer. 

 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Host_Migration#:~:text=Multiplayer sessions in WARFRAME are,to the host player's machine.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

9 hours ago, makaloff95 said:

trading chat is garbage and you will get scammed essentially since people sell for overprice and buy for underprice, warframe market is the go to if you want a actual good experience with trading.

>be me 

>go to walmart 

>see so many things for so many prices

>no idea what anything is worth 

>go home and rage about not knowing what anything is worth and call the whole thing a scam

>we should hold auctions for groceries instead

[makaloff95]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

That's more the individual not having the ability to say "nty" or actually know the price of something.

If I gave you a multiple choice question about the price of a frame and one answer said "220 to 350 plat"....your reaction as a functioning sapien should be "it's clearly not that answer...."

or i could just get a quick price going to warframe market instead of having to negotiate with people who want to price gouge as much as possible. People rock up prices way more than what they are worth, thats why trade chat in general is terrible beacuse getting a good deal is quite a hassle.

 

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

>be me 

>go to walmart 

>see so many things for so many prices

>no idea what anything is worth 

>go home and rage about not knowing what anything is worth and call the whole thing a scam

>we should hold auctions for groceries instead

you completly missed the point. People mark up the prices in trade chat in attempt to price gauge you, why risk ending up paying way more than needed instead of just going over to the market where i can see the market trend, stable prices and people not trying to price gauge me? not to mention having to negotiate with people is a hassle and waste of time.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

1 hour ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

>warframe is not peer to peer. 

 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Host_Migration#:~:text=Multiplayer sessions in WARFRAME are,to the host player's machine.

it's unrelated to trading

28 minutes ago, makaloff95 said:

you completly missed the point. People mark up the prices in trade chat in attempt to price gauge you, why risk ending up paying way more than needed instead of just going over to the market where i can see the market trend, stable prices and people not trying to price gauge me? not to mention having to negotiate with people is a hassle and waste of time.

especially the acolytes arcanes are the most shameless, they are literally 10 pl maxed and people still sell them for like 200 pl in trade chat

[Packetdancer]

57 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

>warframe is not peer to peer. 

To elaborate, probably at greater length than necessary...

Many people use peer-to-peer as a term as though it means "there's no dedicated server out there being just a server, you're connecting to another client." This is not correct.

Peer-to-peer in actual technical terminology refers to a system in which there is no server at all. It's that "at all" that's key; Warframe is not P2P because there still always is a server... it's just that outside of relays/social hubs, the server happens to also be one of the clients.

In a client-server system, all the clients connect to the server. Ideally the server also serves as the authority; in other words, what it says is what every other node—the clients—must accept as reality. (I mention this as it is relevant for trading.)

In a network with no server, the nodes connect to each other rather than to a central point, making a sort of web. There's no one thing all traffic goes through; they're all peers. (Hence the name peer-to-peer.)

Often these networks have no central source of authority, which is fine for downloads (where you can have a server give you a checksum outside of the P2P portion for whatever you're downloading, thus validate the data your peers are giving you), but not great for gameplay (where if you choose to implicitly trust the player's copy of a game, you are potentially asking for trouble in the form of exploits). Hence why some games will have a launcher that does use peer-to-peer networking to download the game's patch files, but the game itself is still client-server once you connect.

ANYWAY.

Warframe's architecture is client-hosted; there still is a server for every mission, but that server is actually one of the participating clients rather than a dedicated server.

This is all relevant because for a trading system to work without being exploited it needs to sort of function like an escrow agent, at least conceptually. So you give that agent the things you're giving me and they hold onto them. I give them what I'm giving you. The agent looks at this all and goes "yep, these were what was agreed-upon" and hands us each the things we're supposed to get.

Escrow works because you go through a trusted third party. In an online game, you should generally not implicitly trust the client with things like this; even if folks who will exploit things are a minority, you really need to design your architecture with that in mind from the beginning. This is the whole "what has authority" thing I mentioned.

So, given that part, trades must go through DE servers... and the easiest way to do that is to require you to be on a relay/dojo server. That all makes sense; it's easy to see why DE wants trades to happen on a trusted server. To let that server act as escrow.

Similarly, almost any game with a market board that lets sellers sell without interacting with the buyers invites bottling; we've all seen it on MMOs and such, and DE have made it clear they don't want to open that door. This one you can agree or disagree with them on, but they have stated their position pretty clearly in the past.

My giant blob of text about net authority and metaphorical escrow aside, you could still improve the trading experience dramatically. Imagine if you could go create WFM-style listings in game that other players could search. While you were online, if someone saw your listing and wanted it, they click on it... and it can say "X is in a mission. Would you like to still send a purchase request?"

And if the prospective buyer said yes, the seller gets a little HUD indicator for a pending trade. They could decline it, or send a "I'll be out of mission soon", or if they were out of the mission they could click "open trade" and it would pull both players to a "trade relay", basically spinning up a very simple dojo-like structure (to act as trusted escrow).

If the seller was taking too long to respond, the prospective buyer could cancel the trade request and look at the listings again.

Moreover, when you were offline or had run out of trades for the day, it would automatically de-list your offer.

This is still not as convenient as an auction house or market board, but it doesn't break the constraints we're operating in right now. And it does arguably improve the experience by removing certain frustrations, like not knowing if a seller hasn't replied to you because they missed your /w or because they're in a mission and can't type or even tabbed out of the game and then got distracted and forgot they were still logged in. Or whatever.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, after all; there are incremental improvements that can be made.

(...anyone remember what the base energy drain to cast "Wall of Text" is?)

[sly_squash]

4 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

Would you like to still send a purchase request?"

And if the prospective buyer said yes, the seller gets a little HUD indicator for a pending trade. They could decline it, or send a "I'll be out of mission soon", or if they were out of the mission they could click "open trade" and it would pull both players to a "trade relay", basically spinning up a very simple dojo-like structure (to act as trusted escrow).

I don't understand why you think an "escrow server" needs to require both player avatars to be in the same virtual space at the time of the trade.

When I DM you, it's not like Warframe needs to transport us to some autogenerated mutual virtual location so we have an escrow server through which we can exchange chat messages.  It just works--and works stably-- because I send a message to the server and it relays it to you.  I don't need to know anything about you, much less be able to connect to you directly.

There's zero technical reason trading can't be as stable and location-independent.  The workflow you described (which I've described numerous times in the past) is reasonable and an improvement over the existing workflow; however, there's no reason I can't just right click your name and invite you to trade--stably-- without the need to transport anyone anywhere.

I have to believe the only reason for this artificial requirement of both players needing to be in the same virtual location--usually a dojo-- is just to give dojos some actual purpose and exposure.  As it stands, if not for trading most people would only visit a clan dojo to grab some bp's and maybe check out a few decorations one time and never go back.  If trading through dojos was fast, reliable, and stable I would be somewhat OK with this needless requirement, but we've given DE like a decade now and it's as slow and buggy as it's ever been.

We're well past time to cut out the fat and just initiate trade requests directly with other players.  I'd like to go even further, but as you mention this type of streamlining is cheap to implement and in-line with the existing workflow.