We need an URGENT rework of trading system

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

Not only the current trading system requires a use of warframe.market, it's still extremely inconvenient as in order to trade you not only need a dojo, you also need to be physically present in the dojo and a lot of times when people join my dojo, I can't even see them, so it's real buggy. Not to mention that I can't even go do something else while I'm expecting people to message me, because if I'm in a mission, I have to either make them wait or leave and rush to dojo which is insane.

Trade chat in this game is dumb, everyone knows that. It must be deleted.

[quxier]

12 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

Not only the current trading system requires a use of warframe.market,

No. You can use trading chat.

12 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

t's still extremely inconvenient as in order to trade you not only need a dojo,

NO, you can trade in Maroo's bizarre... I mean bazar or maybe even in relays (?).

14 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

you also need to be physically present in the dojo and a lot of times when people join my dojo,

That's honestly what makes me not trade too much when I had old pc (laggy, need to load dojo because it freezes game etc). With new pc it's much faster but I would like to have some kind of "you want to trade" message OR at least invite to my ship to trade.

 

[MutoManiac]

All good points, yes, please DE, just do it. I want to trade and get some goodies, but I prefer spending my time playing. Waiting around a trading console hoping someone from wfmarket will message me is not going to happen. 

Going to go blow up the New Year now. 🥳

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

19 minutes ago, quxier said:

No. You can use trading chat.

You'll waste lots of time before actually getting what you want.

 

20 minutes ago, quxier said:

NO, you can trade in Maroo's bizarre... I mean bazar or maybe even in relays (?).

People can't find you there for 20 minutes.

[BowserNC]

33 minutes ago, quxier said:

No. You can use trading chat.

NO, you can trade in Maroo's bizarre... I mean bazar or maybe even in relays (?).

That's honestly what makes me not trade too much when I had old pc (laggy, need to load dojo because it freezes game etc). With new pc it's much faster but I would like to have some kind of "you want to trade" message OR at least invite to my ship to trade.

 

Yup there's nothing else to say. Trading system doesnt really need a rework, just some minor adjustments perhaps

[DarkSkysz]

54 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

use of warframe.market, it's still extremely inconvenient

Now you only need to say that using google to search is too hard for you. 

For real... the site even prepare the message for you to copy/paste.

[Birdframe_Prime]

So.

Context?

Why is Trading like this in the first place?

Two things:

First is because DE are apparently keeping it as policy that they will never introduce any way to be offline and Trade with others.

Second is because DE's systems were previously easily exploitable. Players could use code injection to cause a slew of issues, from duplicating items by simultaneously cancelling and confirming a trade, so that both players got the result, all the way through to simply acquiring things in a trade that the other player didn't even own, let alone trade to them.

So.

There are a few requirements that DE put in to prevent exploitation of their system; For example, by forcing both players to connect to a server that DE can monitor (Maroo's Bazaar or the Dojo) they can enforce the trade itself, making sure that the players both own the things they're trading and that players receive the things they traded for. (They can't enforce trades for favours, but actual trades? Actual trades they can monitor and even reverse for the players if there's a dispute.)

Basically the rules are as follows:

1. Players must actually communicate. The bare basics.

2. Players must be in a server that can be monitored by DE's system to verify, track and archive the trade itself.

That's it.

Considering these two, there are some things they could do to improve the Trading system. However... given the policy of no Offline or AFK trading, and given the requirement for both players to verify their inventories by entering a Server together... Those improvements are going to be limited to things like the UI and Chat improvements ^^

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

13 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

Now you only need to say that using google to search is too hard for you. 

For real... the site even prepare the message for you to copy/paste.

This isn't the point. The point is that I have to stay in dojo, and even then it's not guaranteed to work because it's extremely buggy, sometimes you literally can't see the player in both game and trading post.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

4 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why is Trading like this in the first place?

It's quite obvious that if there is no official server in charge of the trade then it's going to be abused. It's DE's fault for not understanding this.

[quxier]

20 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

53 minutes ago, quxier said:

No. You can use trading chat.

You'll waste lots of time before actually getting what you want.

Sure, but I just want to clear misconceptions that you need 3rd party software to trade.

20 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

53 minutes ago, quxier said:

NO, you can trade in Maroo's bizarre... I mean bazar or maybe even in relays (?).

People can't find you there for 20 minutes.

What are they doing for 20 minutes? Asking every person "Have you seen X"? It's far from perfect but you can make it work.

2 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

There are a few requirements that DE put in to prevent exploitation of their system; For example, by forcing both players to connect to a server that DE can monitor (Maroo's Bazaar or the Dojo) they can enforce the trade itself, making sure that the players both own the things they're trading and that players receive the things they traded for. (They can't enforce trades for favours, but actual trades? Actual trades they can monitor and even reverse for the players if there's a dispute.)

Basically the rules are as follows:

1. Players must actually communicate. The bare basics.

2. Players must be in a server that can be monitored by DE's system to verify, track and archive the trade itself.

That's it.

Considering these two, there are some things they could do to improve the Trading system. However... given the policy of no Offline or AFK trading, and given the requirement for both players to verify their inventories by entering a Server together... Those improvements are going to be limited to things like the UI and Chat improvements ^^

I wonder if it's possible to make 2nd invisible to players. Like you 2 players want to trade, you invite another person. You make "shop window" (e.g. like in Maroo's way), another player clicks X (to accept), you get trading windows... and everything else is like your usual trading.

Player see that as going to another player's ship to trade. However from DE side it would be creating "servers that monitors trade". Would that be "easily" possible?

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

Just now, quxier said:

Sure, but I just want to clear misconceptions that you need 3rd party software to trade.

What are they doing for 20 minutes? Asking every person "Have you seen X"? It's far from perfect but you can make it work.

I wonder if it's possible to make 2nd invisible to players. Like you 2 players want to trade, you invite another person. You make "shop window" (e.g. like in Maroo's way), another player clicks X (to accept), you get trading windows... and everything else is like your usual trading.

Player see that as going to another player's ship to trade. However from DE side it would be creating "servers that monitors trade". Would that be "easily" possible?

It's dumb that you need to see other player in person in order to trade. It's a space ninja game, we could exchange resources via cosmis transportation.

[quxier]

Just now, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

It's dumb that you need to see other player in person in order to trade. It's a space ninja game, we could exchange resources via cosmis transportation.

Sure, something like messaging "/trade-with <username>" would be fine I guess.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

3 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sure, something like messaging "/trade-with <username>" would be fine I guess.

An entire new interface for trading, basically a warframe.market in game.

[Merrcenary]

if you think that trading system in WF is bad then i suggest you to ctry to play and trade in ESO. sure you can put your items on sale in guild vendors, but all trading ecosystem divided into billions of small marketplaces for each guild. trying to buy that specific style page? good luck running around all major cities and checking every guild vendor
after playing this game for few month i actually started thinking that wf system much much better

[Nekomian]

15 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

There are a few requirements that DE put in to prevent exploitation of their system; For example, by forcing both players to connect to a server that DE can monitor (Maroo's Bazaar or the Dojo) they can enforce the trade itself, making sure that the players both own the things they're trading and that players receive the things they traded for.

I wouldn't think that's necessary at all, they can just check the players' account inventory for validation before a trade occurs. If the trade call has to run on their servers and checks both inventories for the listed items it doesn't really matter what the client receives via injection (i.e. "forcing" the trade to be a certain mod on the client side). The database itself would correct the inventory discrepancy and overwrite the client's listed items since they were never synced or obtained legitimately. You'd only need account authentication and a trading request, which don't necessarily need to happen only in game.

That said, I get they implemented it in such a way to avoid things like automation or bots for trading items, and it does serve that purpose (though you could track those things in other methods too, like frequency / speed of trades). It does still feel a bit archaic in implementation, as even just allowing players to set items "for sale" in game (still requiring trades to be done entirely as is in game currently) and alerting them when buyers are interested (so they can hop on or communicate with the buyer) would be way better. Right now it takes a lot of coordination (both parties have to be in-game / online, whispered in-game / accepting whispers and invites, and not be in a mission and load to a specific place to physically meet), which is why tools like WFM even exist to uncomplicate this mess.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

15 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

if you think that trading system in WF is bad then i suggest you to ctry to play and trade in ESO. sure you can put your items on sale in guild vendors, but all trading ecosystem divided into billions of small marketplaces for each guild. trying to buy that specific style page? good luck running around all major cities and checking every guild vendor
after playing this game for few month i actually started thinking that wf system much much better

I don't think it's bad, but it doesn't mean there is no room for improvement.

10 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

I wouldn't think that's necessary at all, they can just check the players' account inventory for validation before a trade occurs. If the trade call has to run on their servers and checks both inventories for the listed items it doesn't really matter what the client receives via injection (i.e. "forcing" the trade to be a certain mod on the client side). The database itself would correct the inventory discrepancy and overwrite the client's listed items since they were never synced or obtained legitimately. You'd only need account authentication and a trading request, which don't necessarily need to happen only in game.

That said, I get they implemented it in such a way to avoid things like automation or bots for trading items, and it does serve that purpose (though you could track those things in other methods too, like frequency / speed of trades). It does still feel a bit archaic in implementation, as even just allowing players to set items "for sale" in game (still requiring trades to be done entirely as is in game currently) and alerting them when buyers are interested (so they can hop on or communicate with the buyer) would be way better. Right now it takes a lot of coordination (both parties have to be in-game / online, whispered in-game / accepting whispers and invites, and not be in a mission and load to a specific place to physically meet), which is why tools like WFM even exist to uncomplicate this mess.

And what's wrong with automated trading? Especially since we have limited number of trades per day.

Edited December 31, 2023 by NorthernDarkIceSoul

[Nekomian]

3 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said:

And what's wrong with automated trading? Especially since we have limited number of trades per day.

Nothing on its own, but it opens the window for a lot of problems with bot accounts (or hacked accounts) that queue up a ton of trades and attempt to make confusing chains of bad plat or mask trades by acting as a proxy. The existing system is just not set up to handle the many issues it could cause is all, it would need a lot of consideration.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

What we have now is good enough. We don't need an automatic trading system.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

5 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

Nothing on its own, but it opens the window for a lot of problems with bot accounts (or hacked accounts) that queue up a ton of trades and attempt to make confusing chains of bad plat or mask trades by acting as a proxy. The existing system is just not set up to handle the many issues it could cause is all, it would need a lot of consideration.

Well yes, as I said trading needs a rework.

[NorthernDarkIceSoul]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

What we have now is good enough. We don't need an automatic trading system.

It's not nearly good enough, you don't know how much warframe.market did to be able to function. Not only DE does not provide a way to verify that you own a specific in-game username, they also fight forum "bots" that warframe.market uses for verification. That's why verification on warframe.market is so annoying and barely works.

Edited December 31, 2023 by NorthernDarkIceSoul

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

While it's great to see more and more posts about this, I still don't think DE will ever update or improve player trading. It's awful but functional and that's good enough for them.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

"if enough people bang their heads on a wall together for long enough, it will come down" - Loid.

Keep headbutting, i'm sure a crack will appear in the wall any day now...

[Circle_of_Psi]

[trst]

The most I could ever see DE doing is implementing a WF Market type system in game but leaving all the other steps in place. And even then since WF Market already exists DE doesn't really have any pressing need to do anything. Plus there's even less of a reason for them to change it since players still actively engage in trade so the lack of any "improvements" isn't detracting from engagement.

And anything beyond that though should be a hard never. The game lacks the systems necessary to allow a proper game economy to function causing value to be propped up by the artificial scarcity created by necessitating being online and not doing anything else in-game. Anything that automated/streamlined parts of the trade process is just going to hurt the value of anything that isn't actually rare like some Arcanes and Rivens. Which just harms far more players than it helps.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

Ah, another auction house post. Let's see if this discussion is any different to the myriad of many other similar posts...

DE have stated several times they do not want any sort of automatic trading system. So in all honesty, we may as well not even bother to entertain the idea. 

If you have some ideas to improve warframe.market, that's perhaps something worth discussing. However, in my trading experience, the website works quite well. Although there are currently some potential issues, I have yet to see any indication that there's anything that needs to be fixed. It certainly would be nice if DE allowed some sort of API to help confirm user accounts and that you actually have the item for sale, but I just don't see there being any sort of widespread issue that needs to be addressed (happy to be proven wrong of course).

 

For arguments sake, here's my thoughts on auction house:

Let's consider some of the possible outcomes; increase supply may lead to lower prices (note, it won't affect every item equally, but loosely speaking this would occur for the more common items). Good for buyers (including anyone who chooses to buy plat), but bad for sellers (including F2P players, I.e. most players, and new players in particular).

New players would likely be negatively affected, as their items are typically the lower value and common items. It could take longer for a new player to acquire plat in order to then buy slots etc. If it were to take 2-3 times longer (or even more) to buy slots, could this lead to lower player retention.

However, what if there were something SIMILAR, but only for rivens. Trash rivens for popular weapons might drop a little in price. "Groll" rivens might stabilise in price. It could work... but this is all completely theoretical.