Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[FrostSpectre]

In case of this, the only solution is to play Steel Path, where enemies are far more resistant to Nuking, although nuking will be more common place there, and you need to optimize your warframes, as not having all modding points and slots unlocked, maxed mods and arcanes upgraded, makes them weaker...

 

Too bad DE decided against splitting Steel Path into 2 sections. Recall reading that one of the section was supposed to be 60+ and the other the current Steel Path 100+...

And I doubt DE would be willing to section lock certain mods.

[Paroe]

2 minutes ago, HazelMeade said:

Haha.  I remember a couple times wondering why I couldn't mount him, and the whole group thought it was bugged and left... before I read the wiki page and realized someone else had always been one-shotting the shield without me noticing.  The game is extremely poor about introducing mechanics.  (My favorite example is the drop rotation system, which AFAIK still isn't visible at all in game.)

THat was my experience too. DE is unfortunately REALLY good at making boss fights that are easy and intuitive AFTER you know what to do but are super esoteric before then. If the community were nicer it would be fine, but... Yeah.

[HazelMeade]

3 minutes ago, Paroe said:

THat was my experience too. DE is unfortunately REALLY good at making boss fights that are easy and intuitive AFTER you know what to do but are super esoteric before then. If the community were nicer it would be fine, but... Yeah.

A lot of games are like that.  I don't even necessarily mind; in fact some of the most fun I had in ESO (that other MMO) was figuring out new bosses on day 1 before there was a PTS and day 1 guides.  But you pretty much can't do that any more, there will always be at least one person in your group who has read a guide and expects everyone to know all the details cold.  (Before that I used to write guides for other MMOs.)

[SneakyErvin]

56 minutes ago, HazelMeade said:

Do you even play this game, bruh?  RJ is in general a ghost town.  SP is a ghost town except for a few specific missions that are useful for farming, and even then it's pretty much all premade groups, no pubs.  At certain times of day it takes 15-20 minutes to even get another player in Tyana Pass.  I usually play solo and have been surprised many times to finish a mission and realize I had left myself on pub but not gotten another player at all.

TL;DR: Warframe is FULL of ghost towns.

I'm refering to low levels, with the exception of RJ which is a ghost town due to the very isolated and finite nature of it in addition to the pantheon of gods acting as your personal crew. RJ practically doesnt follow the philosophy of the rest of the game, you have no reason as a high level to ever access the lower proximas. Tyana Pass is also a very isolated piece of content since it has nothing for people that are already done with it. If Tyana Pass would get added to fissures (which it might) or Arbis the activity would increase since there would be a reason to run it.

58 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Part of the reason Warframe's system is even better than that, is that other people on a player's team can situationally get MORE experience from OTHER people's kills, than their own, depending on which pieces of gear they're trying to level up at the time. This is moreso things like companions and weapons that you don't like using... generally, pets have to make their own kills to get experience, and you have to use the weapons you don't like, just to level them up... but on a team, you're sharing all the experience from everyone else's kills, regardless of you actually killing things or not. It's a novel way to address the issue, which has encouraged leeching, but overall, I'd say it's a good mechanic for Warframe, and truly keeps it a co-op game, where you're not "stealing" kills from other people and hindering their progress.

I especially like being able to bring my fully geared endgame builds in to help my friends that I introduce to the game, to act as support to them. I let them run ahead and kill everything, if that's what they want to do, and I hang back, providing cover fire on enemies that spawn in rooms behind them, and provide healing in the case of Wisp or Inaros or Oberon. I get to supervise, advise, and help, without stressing about playing the mission "with" them.

Yep! That is also a huge benefit for newer players. I always give out a "Luke. I am your father." scream when I realize I need to level a frame that has no ability that can kill and dont feel like grouping. Because it will be so horribly slow to do level solo. And at low levels the increased mob density is a massive benefit to a new player even if they cant keep up with the killing, since it gives them so much more needed materials early on in the game. I remember after my friend got back from a break and needed some materials and I told him to just group up with randoms or me with random and he was on the fence since he prefers solo or just duo. Then after the random group he was like "man I can get this much in a run!!?" and I said "yeah, obviously, more mobs, more loot".

1 hour ago, HazelMeade said:

Unless they're end gamers who stacked movement speed, in which case they're so far ahead of you you're out of affinity range.  It happens all the time to new players, and is a horrible experience.

But I already said that, and you ignored it.

That really doesnt matter since the missions that are supposed to be fast wont grant much kill affinity either, since there arent many enemies to kill, or they promote zero or next to no killing at all. You just get alot more by finishing several of them back to back, although that isnt exactly worthwhile either. I guess you could argue that fast players will steal affinity from you in spy, but someone will always be left out in the cold with their pants down (or is the pants thing just me?) there so. 🤷‍♂️

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

RJ is in a very funny spot in Warframe...

It was developed from the ground up as a team activity that nobody could do on their own. (IMO, they intentionally held back on releasing the command skill tree until later, to get people used to playing with each other, instead of relying on an NPC crew.)

This wasn't going to fly for those who didn't have friends, or didn't want to play with others... there are people like me out there with only like 1 or 2 people who I'd play with, and those people often take LONG breaks from Warframe, leaving me to solo the rest of the time.

Now, the grouping in RJ is problematic, in that you can't choose to be the captain or crew. There are no mechanics in place to ensure that YOUR pimped out, armed to the teeth RailJack gets to be the foundation of the mission. You can't be guaranteed to be in the pilot seat, in a PUG mission. Before they changed the system for creating munitions and stuff, eating away at your personal stockpile of resources, for other people to waste shots from gunnery seats, for instance, it was even detrimental to your personal progress in gathering materials to craft better RJ components, if you brought people that wasted all your stuff without even asking.

IF they made certain changes to group management in RailJack, things would get better... but as it stands, you make your crew, or you go solo... PUG is NOT where it's at. (at least from my perspective, anyway.)

 

[HazelMeade]

41 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That really doesnt matter since the missions that are supposed to be fast wont grant much kill affinity either, since there arent many enemies to kill, or they promote zero or next to no killing at all. You just get alot more by finishing several of them back to back, although that isnt exactly worthwhile either.

N*0 = 0

I mean you could argue that for leveling you should just do SO, and that is the meta.  But it basically means that new players have to choose between being a fifth wheel or soloing... in a MMO.  I used to level MR fodder guns in a single endless solo mission, but that basically doesn't even work any more because of the changes to affinity distribution, unless you're already high MR and can mod them out from the start (and even then some of them just suck).  Now you're actively incentivized to go into SO and leech.  Great game play.  But also consider, if you've reduced leveling to 3-10 minutes (depending on boosts), why even bother having a leveling mechanism at all?

Hell, just look at all the responses in this thread that amount to "just play solo".  Why would you even design a MMO that so many people actually do find more rewarding solo?  A huge fraction of players I know literally solo everything where it's not actively detrimental (i.e. fissures and meta endo/resource farm), as do I.  It's also one of the reasons I like Railjack, it's actually just better with hired crew than with real players, and I get to use my own ship that doesn't suck--and no host migrations!

There are many questionable, if not outright dumb, design decisions in WF.

Edited March 2 by HazelMeade

[Paroe]

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

RJ is in a very funny spot in Warframe...

It was developed from the ground up as a team activity that nobody could do on their own. (IMO, they intentionally held back on releasing the command skill tree until later, to get people used to playing with each other, instead of relying on an NPC crew.)

This wasn't going to fly for those who didn't have friends, or didn't want to play with others... there are people like me out there with only like 1 or 2 people who I'd play with, and those people often take LONG breaks from Warframe, leaving me to solo the rest of the time.

Now, the grouping in RJ is problematic, in that you can't choose to be the captain or crew. There are no mechanics in place to ensure that YOUR pimped out, armed to the teeth RailJack gets to be the foundation of the mission. You can't be guaranteed to be in the pilot seat, in a PUG mission. Before they changed the system for creating munitions and stuff, eating away at your personal stockpile of resources, for other people to waste shots from gunnery seats, for instance, it was even detrimental to your personal progress in gathering materials to craft better RJ components, if you brought people that wasted all your stuff without even asking.

IF they made certain changes to group management in RailJack, things would get better... but as it stands, you make your crew, or you go solo... PUG is NOT where it's at. (at least from my perspective, anyway.)

 

The only major change railjack needs is for them to stop making the railjack a taxi. 
Replace all volatile missions with effectively railjack assassination missions, where you take out one of those big (usually infiltrated) ships PURELY with the railjack. 
Then add railjack defense and survival, which are JUST railjack with no warframe mission component. You can have OPTIONAL infiltration like with crewships or have those big ships spawn as threats you need to deal with by a QUICK sabotage (none of this 5 minute+ forced mechanic with multiple phases sabo, please and thank you. Get in, get to the reactor, optionally load in the coolant or heat cell, omni out).  

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, HazelMeade said:

N*0 = 0

I mean you could argue that for leveling you should just do SO, and that is the meta.  But it basically means that new players have to choose between being a fifth wheel or soloing... in a MMO.  I used to level MR fodder guns in a single endless solo mission, but that basically doesn't even work any more because of the changes to affinity distribution, unless you're already high MR and can mod them out from the start (and even then some of them just suck).  Now you're actively incentivized to go into SO and leech.  Great game play.  But also consider, if you've reduced leveling to 3-10 minutes (depending on boosts), why even bother having a leveling mechanism at all?

Hell, just look at all the responses in this thread that amount to "just play solo".  Why would you even design a MMO that so many people actually do find more rewarding solo?  A huge fraction of players I know literally solo everything where it's not actively detrimental (i.e. fissures and meta endo/resource farm), as do I.  It's also one of the reasons I like Railjack, it's actually just better with hired crew than with real players, and I get to use my own ship that doesn't suck--and no host migrations!

There are many questionable, if not outright dumb, design decisions in WF.

I'm just saying that no one has ever gone to exterminate, capture and so on for the affinity. Endless and as you mentioned here SO is for that, neither of which is less beneficial with other players since shared affinity most often wins over self earned affinity. In those part of the game a speeded up player doesnt really matter. And while we can ask why leveling even exsists I think it is answered by the forma system. Which eventually results in hours spent on weapon leveling, which just adds to gametime spent by players. So a time sink really, just like riven challenges or farming endo/credits for leveling mods.

The game is also not an MMO, it isnt even close to one. Limited to 4 player groups (or more accurately, required to group to experience multiplayer), no dedicated servers, no "accidental" or "sporadic" player to player intereaction (tied to groups being required for any multiplayer), no persistant world and so on. An MMO would not require grouping to experience multiplayer elements, it would use dedicated servers and have a world that exsists even when we arent there. As in even if you log out, that NPC on the corner of a street would still be there when you log in 12 hours later if no one has done something to him before that. In WF when a mission ends that mission is gone, that NPC that might have still been alive by the end just vanishes with the tileset and no one else will be able to run into it. In an MMO another random tenno could have come by to cave the head of that NPC, or turn him into Corpus McNuggets with their Ignis.

It is a solo player game with optional co-op, since grouping doesnt scale either in a way that a co-op focused game would. Scaling is really of such an issue that DE went with arbitrary mechanics in order to justify "raids" requiring X amount of players to play. When raids should really be about engaging encounters, not puzzles or friend doors.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is simply due to how math works, which has nothing to do with language itself. Nerf and buff however is tied to language and came about to describe two different actions.

So it's just pedantry, then? You're taking issue with the words used and not what they mean or do. What value do you see in this?

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt though, since enemies still have the exact same eHP and mechanics that might circumvent that eHP to everything else. What has happened is the skill having recieved a nerf, which is very different since it only affects that specific skill. The enemies are still 100% the same as before.

And yet despite their EHP being 100% the same as before, they'll still be able to survive longer. That isn't the same as before.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really what I'm refering to. I'm refering to you nerf A, buff B to achieve C instead of just targetting C directly without the risk to screw something unrelated up with A and B on your way to C.

And targeting C has the same risk of screwing up A and B. Since everything is relative, there's no such thing as a change that doesn't affect other related things. When DE buffed melee weapons, that had the unintended effect of making guns feel ineffective. When DE buffed guns to make up for that, that had the unintended effect of making melee feel redundant and making AoE guns even more dominant. When DE nerfed these AoE guns with ammo changes, that has had the unintended effect of making Incarnons and their infinite ammo generation far more appealing. Any change carries inherent risk of affecting unintended things. Is that risk only wrong when I say it?

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You say "terrible in comparison", in comparison to what on the Soma P? Increase damage output on the Dera and Braton and I'd still use the Soma P due to fire rate, mag size etc.

Well, as you've pointed out in comparison to the damage output. But if you'd still use the Soma even if effectiveness were more equal, OK, well keep using it? That's fine. Knock yourself out. If you like high ROF weapons with big magazines, you do you. It's fine if you have that preference. But there'd be less of a stats deficiency, like damage, telling you not to even try using a weapon like the Dera or Braton.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You also still ignore the multitude of bland and generic weapons.

To the contrary, I seem to be the only one between us saying these weapons shouldn't be ignored. You're the one calling weapons bland or generic like it's a bad thing, and saying how you wouldn't use them even if they were good. I would. How is that "ignoring" them? 🤷‍♀️

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I personally dont use them anymore. I'm using old weapons now with mechanics that I prefer, since they recieved mechanical updates and not just blanket stat buffs.

Wonderful! Isn't it nice to have more things to play with now than just your Kuva Zarr? Wouldn't it be nice if there were even more things worth exploring?

Edited March 2 by PublikDomain

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

We got there folks!  30 pages of a general non issue mixed with a whole lot of trolling and circular arguments!

Honestly I'm impressed 

Edited March 2 by (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz

[--Leyenda-yight6]

congratulations!!!🥳

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

We got there folks!  30 pages of a general non issue mixed with a whole trolling and circular arguments!

Honestly I'm impressed 

Though I absolutely disagree that this is a "non issue". It's an issue that even DE have been trying to fix for years. They're very open about this topic, even if they're not good at solving it.

Edited March 2 by PublikDomain

[Merkranire]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I still have a hard time seeing what it is the Star Chart allows you that SP doesnt. And no one has narrowed the bands aside from you when you said Star Chart allows more options than SP, since the Star Chart is that narrow. You havent provided any unique playstyle that SC allows that SP doesnt, you have just provided run of the mill damage building.

And no, having spare capacity and mod slots does not equal a playstyle, since it doesnt do anything aside from alter your power. Things still play the same in the mission. And if you are thinking of PT and other types of stats, those work in SP aswell and are even promoted on some weapon that make use of those stats. So what unique thing is it you simply cant use in SP?

I… feel like I’m talking to someone with dementia or something who loses track of what they’re saying constantly. And who knows so little but acts like they know so much.

You kept pointing out 40-ish-and-below Starchart. Why?

[Berzerkules]

13 hours ago, HazelMeade said:

We all know that, but I will argue (and have argued) that it's bad game design.  It's especially crappy for new players who may literally not even be able to keep up and get XP.  Most games at least disincentivize end gamers from playing in the same missions, but WF actually incentivizes them to in many ways.

I've talked about exactly that in this thread a dozen+ pages ago. I've also brought it up multiple times over the years. 

There is no reason that players with years of experience should be getting matched with newer players against enemies we went up against in the first few weeks of starting the game. That's pub fissures though. It's a problem created by DE and it's not the players fault that every few months there are new primes to farm and everyone flocks to normal star chart fissures. 

If DE would actually incentivize players to run SP fissures this discussion wouldn't exist. IF there was just double gold drop chance in SP people would play SP fissures more. They could also introduce a pity system where gold drop chance increases by x% every round in endless fissures. IDK, there has to be a way to clean up normal star chart for newer players. It's not my job to figure it out though. 

[SDGDen]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

We got there folks!  30 pages of a general non issue mixed with a whole lot of trolling and circular arguments!

Honestly I'm impressed 

lets goooo! 

 

now lets see if DE actually does anything about the non-issue or general gameplay balance.

 

my bet is: not really.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So it's just pedantry, then? You're taking issue with the words used and not what they mean or do. What value do you see in this?

No it's not, it's simply what things mean. In real life (well games are real aswell) you wouldnt say your secondary car got worse or the distance between A to B got shorter because you put a slightly better engine into your primary car. No that secondary car would still be the same, just as the distance between point A and B. The primary car would be faster and go from point A to B quicker, but still travel the same distance and the secondary car would go the distance in the same time as before. And shortening the distance would make neither of the cars faster, they just wouldnt need to travel as far as before.

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And yet despite their EHP being 100% the same as before, they'll still be able to survive longer. That isn't the same as before.

That is simply just the skill being weakened, not the enemies being buffed. A buffed enemy would have a new thing added to them or directly increased. That some enemies from Deimos are immune to viral does not mean viral got nerfed, it simply means that some enemies come with unique mechanics.

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And targeting C has the same risk of screwing up A and B. Since everything is relative, there's no such thing as a change that doesn't affect other related things. When DE buffed melee weapons, that had the unintended effect of making guns feel ineffective. When DE buffed guns to make up for that, that had the unintended effect of making melee feel redundant and making AoE guns even more dominant. When DE nerfed these AoE guns with ammo changes, that has had the unintended effect of making Incarnons and their infinite ammo generation far more appealing. Any change carries inherent risk of affecting unintended things. Is that risk only wrong when I say it?

But I'm not even saying A and B is screwing up C. And you are also incorrect. We are talking about A = weapon, B = Enemy and C = weapon. Changing C does nothing for A, it wasnt intended to either. It does what it should versus B, but it doesnt alter B passively. C really only affects itself, either by being reduced in power or increased depending on whatever intent there was with the change. Changing A and B could result in C+ getting impacted when they shouldnt. Since we have hundreds of weapons, nerfing A and buffing B to help C could negatively impact several other weapon options beyond that since buffing B is so wide reaching, since it applies to everything in the whole game and not just to help C out.

Which would also lead to pointless adjustment for so many things after that, and a harder mess to clean up than if you need to adjust one thing that might have gotten overtuned up/down. If you aim to help C and you overdue it, well then you just need to re-adjust C further, either buffing it or nerfing it. If you did it to B then you wouldnt know what to adjust it to since it would be gamewide. So if your intent is to help C, modifying C is the approach since it only affects C. If your intent is to make B stronger (or weaker) across the board then you obvious modify B instead of modifying every individual weapon.

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well, as you've pointed out in comparison to the damage output. But if you'd still use the Soma even if effectiveness were more equal, OK, well keep using it? That's fine. Knock yourself out. If you like high ROF weapons with big magazines, you do you. It's fine if you have that preference. But there'd be less of a stats deficiency, like damage, telling you not to even try using a weapon like the Dera or Braton.

Because clearly there is only 1 Dera and 1 Braton version right? Who says I didnt try the family even though I owned Soma P? It was also a unique situation at the time, since I didnt jump to Soma P in the game, I got it for free along with Scindo P and Frost P. So it doesnt really point to power progression being faulty in a vertical state even. It points to you not actually considering the options and reasons as to why those weapons were skipped.

And in reality, I think you ignored that I had used MK-1 Braton, so already had a feel for the family. You also ignore the simple thing that is time, which ties into why some weapons are skipped unless someone is dead focused on MR. We again have too many weapons that are too similar. If someone isnt interested in standard assault rifles they just wont go through each and everyone unless they actually aim for MR. And since I dont aim to max MR, never have, there are plenty of weapons that will go 100% unused because I have no interest in the type or I've tried a variant already (or plan to).

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

To the contrary, I seem to be the only one between us saying these weapons shouldn't be ignored. You're the one calling weapons bland or generic like it's a bad thing, and saying how you wouldn't use them even if they were good. I would. How is that "ignoring" them?

You ignore the fact that they are bland, or maybe you just like bland. There is little that can be done to get them to see use when they are carbon copies of something else aside from their skin. And generic is a bad thing when you have so many things that are practically identical. You might enjoy it and that is fine, but most do not. It would be fine if WF weapons were practically Battlefield weapons. At that point it wouldnt matter if all weapons were practically the same, since they'd all be unique to each and every individual player. But WF weapons do not work like Battlefield weapons, WF mods do not work like Battlefield attachments and so on. So bland and generic will just be bland and generic. Though with a BF approach it wouldnt bring wide use, since you often find a weapon that handles according to your taste and muscle memory and that is it. What it would bring is diversity between players, since some would run a gun with all attachments, others with some and the rest with none. I'm for instance an attachmentless ACE user while my M249 used everything, yet the M249 used different attachment than those of some other players. And the overall pool of weapons I switched between was minimal.

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Wonderful! Isn't it nice to have more things to play with now than just your Kuva Zarr? Wouldn't it be nice if there were even more things worth exploring?

More? No, I'm pretty fine with the multitude of weapons I already enjoy using. They all feel different from eachother. I'm already using 10 times as many weapons compared to what I do in other games. If things were homogenized I'd likely strip down my total inventory quite drastically and have something like 1 weapon of each class only, since they'd be so similar. So it'd come down to the weapon with most slash very likely and the most conveniant ammo, reload, fire rate and similar mechanics.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

You kept pointing out 40-ish-and-below Starchart. Why?

Since you were adamant about the specific difference between Star Chart and SP, claiming that SP does not allow you to build how you want and hat Star Chart allows you to build however you want while still maintaining "engaging" content. Which clearly isnt true given how little it takes to even clear nearly the highest levels nekkid. So that freedom with builds while maintaining "engagement" cannot be a reality.

While SP might not allow you to go with an extreme minimal amount of mods, it allows you to face engaging content far better because you have a wider range of options to get to the point you seek because you can utilize everything the game has given you and mix and match it fully to reach that enganging sweet spot of yours. Since that seems to be your main interest, not overbuilding for things. Yet you still advocate that the weakest content allows best for that, even though it turns into a push over with minilar options and even has NPCs trivialize the enemies.

[PublikDomain]

Regarding "what things mean", you'll just have to take it up with Merriam-Webster if you disagree with how the words "buff" and "nerf" are used as verbs in the English language. 🤷‍♀️

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

In real life (well games are real aswell) you wouldnt say your secondary car got worse or the distance between A to B got shorter because you put a slightly better engine into your primary car. No that secondary car would still be the same, just as the distance between point A and B. The primary car would be faster and go from point A to B quicker, but still travel the same distance and the secondary car would go the distance in the same time as before. And shortening the distance would make neither of the cars faster, they just wouldnt need to travel as far as before.

Is a 10 day trip by horse-drawn carriage the same to you as a 3 hour trip by plane just because both cover the same distance? I would think not. Despite covering the same distance, one is clearly much faster. So no S#&$ it's the same distance. No S#&$ the secondary car covers that distance in the same time as before. No one is saying that they've changed, and obviously they haven't. But despite these things being the same, like you yourself say the primary car is now even faster than it was before, while your secondary car is now even slower in comparison to the shorter travel time that's become your new standard. Your secondary car has become a worse option in comparison to your primary car, despite neither it nor your commute changing.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That some enemies from Deimos are immune to viral does not mean viral got nerfed, it simply means that some enemies come with unique mechanics.

Right, unique mechanics which.... drum roll please!... make Viral weaker and less effective against those enemies. And to make something weaker or less effective is to do what to it?

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You ignore the fact that they are bland, or maybe you just like bland. There is little that can be done to get them to see use when they are carbon copies of something else aside from their skin. And generic is a bad thing when you have so many things that are practically identical.

Ignore? No. I just disagree that bland is some horrible, heinous, no-good thing. Bland is fine. I like bland sometimes. What's it to you? Is someone liking something different than you really such a problem?

And there's a lot that can be done to help bland weapons see more use. That's literally the reason we have Rivens! It's also why DE keeps adding augments, keeps doing reworks, and keeps adding things like Incarnons. Wukong used to be a generic stat-stick frame with a S#&$ty Exalted weapon. He was very unpopular and had almost no use. And then DE reworked him, and he's now one of the most popular frames in the game. Is he "practically identical" to Revenant? No. When DE added Incarnons for the Burston and Braton, two "bland" weapons, are they now carbon copies of each other? No. Viral used to be a niche, and Corrosive was dominant. Then DE reworked status effects and Viral became much stronger. Did that make Viral a carbon copy of Corrosive? No. When they added armor stripping to Heat procs, did that make it a carbon copy of Corrosive? No. When DE added Arcanes and Shards that at new mechanics to less-used status types, did any of those become carbon copies of Viral? No.

The game's development history is full of examples showing that underused things can be made more appealing, and that this can be done without making things carbon copies of other things. You can see this plainly as soon as you choose to not remain ignorant.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You might enjoy it and that is fine, but most do not.

And yet DE has spent considerable effort working on those "bland" weapons. Incarnons, Rivens, augments, etc. as I mentioned before. It's almost like the developer of the game sees something you don't? 🤔

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

More? No, I'm pretty fine with the multitude of weapons I already enjoy using. They all feel different from eachother. I'm already using 10 times as many weapons compared to what I do in other games. If things were homogenized I'd likely strip down my total inventory quite drastically and have something like 1 weapon of each class only, since they'd be so similar. So it'd come down to the weapon with most slash very likely and the most conveniant ammo, reload, fire rate and similar mechanics.

There's just so much to unpack here. You're still insisting on this conspiracy theory "everything would be the same" nonsense that simply isn't true. That's just your personal, irrational fear based on nothing more than your unwillingness to actually consider what I say. Just like on so many of the other topics you and I have discussed, whether it was about looter shooters or Shards or alternate Circuit rewards, you've jumped to your own wild interpretation of what I've said and stubbornly refuse to listen when I tell you that your interpretation is wrong. I've explained with examples, anecdotes, simple math, official stats, the game's historical changes, quotes from the developer, and a whole thread that explains what I personally think in fine detail... yet you seem to think that you know what I'm saying better than I do.

Which is probably why your statement here comes off as so, idk, unhinged. "If you gave me more guns to play with I'D THROW THEM ALL AWAY 😡". Ok, so throw a tantrum. There's no reason for you to do this, but if you want to plug your ears I'm not gonna stop you.

[Merkranire]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since you were adamant about the specific difference between Star Chart and SP, claiming that SP does not allow you to build how you want and hat Star Chart allows you to build however you want while still maintaining "engaging" content. Which clearly isnt true given how little it takes to even clear nearly the highest levels nekkid. So that freedom with builds while maintaining "engagement" cannot be a reality.

While SP might not allow you to go with an extreme minimal amount of mods, it allows you to face engaging content far better because you have a wider range of options to get to the point you seek because you can utilize everything the game has given you and mix and match it fully to reach that enganging sweet spot of yours. Since that seems to be your main interest, not overbuilding for things. Yet you still advocate that the weakest content allows best for that, even though it turns into a push over with minilar options and even has NPCs trivialize the enemies.

Jesus christ...

So when I said that level range is part of the picture, because there’s the whole rest of the non-SP game too, and talked about Arbitrations and Sorties and bounties, it went over your head. When I said that level range allows me to do things that SP or Sorties or even Arbitrations doesn’t, and then Arbitrations lets me do what Sorties or Star-chart levels don’t, and then building for level 40 and taking it to 50 to push that custom build or taking it to level 30 to make the build perform differently and typicaly better compared to 40 is different to building for 50 or 30, and building for a range around level 50 and taking it to level 60 is different to building for level 80, that went over your head. And when I said that the different levels and different content and different missions combined with different ways to build and loadouts to make enable different ways to play and parts of the kit get used in different ways accordingly in this game that’s not so straightforward to match the content as other simple stat games like WoW or Diablo (which I even said it was fine to not immediately grasp how to build for the content because it’s not so obvious even if it’s not as scary as people think), and when I say things like a level 140 enemy and a level 140 SP enemy are not equivalent due to the modifiers that help SP do what it’s meant to do, and a build for 140 would behave different between a 140 mission and 140 SP mission, that’s all over your head. Amongst many other things.

You got hyperfixated on that level range and completely ignored the fact that I’m roping Arbitrations, Sorties, bounties, Archons into the mix. Everything that’s not unbalanced SP, running the range of levels, the entire standard game. And then the whole game, every bit of standard content and non-standard content, contains SP which yes is worth poking around in due to how it’s a build-testing mode that scales infinitely and shortcuts you to higher-level enemies to eventually try and break your comparatively few best builds but isn’t the place to go for build and loadout variety by design because of what it’s meant to do and why it was introduced in the first place, and the modifiers that help it do its thing do not result in balanced gameplay and will never result in it so you don’t go to SP for balance or variety because of what it is

edit: And all of this ties into how squading up with other players plays out and why it plays out the way it does

Edited March 3 by Merkranire

[PR1D3]

On 3/2/2024 at 8:35 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

RJ is in a very funny spot in Warframe...

It was developed from the ground up as a team activity that nobody could do on their own. (IMO, they intentionally held back on releasing the command skill tree until later, to get people used to playing with each other, instead of relying on an NPC crew.)

This wasn't going to fly for those who didn't have friends, or didn't want to play with others... there are people like me out there with only like 1 or 2 people who I'd play with, and those people often take LONG breaks from Warframe, leaving me to solo the rest of the time.

Now, the grouping in RJ is problematic, in that you can't choose to be the captain or crew. There are no mechanics in place to ensure that YOUR pimped out, armed to the teeth RailJack gets to be the foundation of the mission. You can't be guaranteed to be in the pilot seat, in a PUG mission. Before they changed the system for creating munitions and stuff, eating away at your personal stockpile of resources, for other people to waste shots from gunnery seats, for instance, it was even detrimental to your personal progress in gathering materials to craft better RJ components, if you brought people that wasted all your stuff without even asking.

IF they made certain changes to group management in RailJack, things would get better... but as it stands, you make your crew, or you go solo... PUG is NOT where it's at. (at least from my perspective, anyway.)

 

Which is a shame cause I loved the S#&$ out of RJ pre command intrinsic. I actually ran into a few good pubs where everyone knew what they were doing. We all call out a role (I usually was engineer, so no one touched the forge but me) and we played like a well oiled cohesive unit. Had a pub where we had went through all of Veil Proxima. So much fun. And I also loved Scarlet Spear. There were a few things they could had done to make that event flow better. I still do think RJ has a place in WF. Even Ops Link too. Not only with what you suggested but really big changes that would equate to Star Chart and Mission 3.0.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Is a 10 day trip by horse-drawn carriage the same to you as a 3 hour trip by plane just because both cover the same distance? I would think not. Despite covering the same distance, one is clearly much faster. So no S#&$ it's the same distance. No S#&$ the secondary car covers that distance in the same time as before. No one is saying that they've changed, and obviously they haven't. But despite these things being the same, like you yourself say the primary car is now even faster than it was before, while your secondary car is now even slower in comparison to the shorter travel time that's become your new standard. Your secondary car has become a worse option in comparison to your primary car, despite neither it nor your commute changing.

Exactly why nerf and buff arent interchangable. Since only the target has actually changed i.e gotten buffed or nerfed. In comparison doesnt matter since 1 of the 2 has gone unchanged. So changing an enemy means that the enemy has either gotten buffed or nerfed, nothing else has since it stays the same. That something else will kill the enemy faster or slower in comparison to before doesnt matter, since it is only the enemy that recieved the actual change.

16 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Right, unique mechanics which.... drum roll please!... make Viral weaker and less effective against those enemies. And to make something weaker or less effective is to do what to it?

Viral didnt change though, since it still works the exact same. So viral wasnt nerfed, an enemy type was buffed, or well created with a special mechanic, that is it. That is what changed, viral didnt.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ignore? No. I just disagree that bland is some horrible, heinous, no-good thing. Bland is fine. I like bland sometimes. What's it to you? Is someone liking something different than you really such a problem?

And there's a lot that can be done to help bland weapons see more use. That's literally the reason we have Rivens! It's also why DE keeps adding augments, keeps doing reworks, and keeps adding things like Incarnons. Wukong used to be a generic stat-stick frame with a S#&$ty Exalted weapon. He was very unpopular and had almost no use. And then DE reworked him, and he's now one of the most popular frames in the game. Is he "practically identical" to Revenant? No. When DE added Incarnons for the Burston and Braton, two "bland" weapons, are they now carbon copies of each other? No. Viral used to be a niche, and Corrosive was dominant. Then DE reworked status effects and Viral became much stronger. Did that make Viral a carbon copy of Corrosive? No. When they added armor stripping to Heat procs, did that make it a carbon copy of Corrosive? No. When DE added Arcanes and Shards that at new mechanics to less-used status types, did any of those become carbon copies of Viral? No.

The game's development history is full of examples showing that underused things can be made more appealing, and that this can be done without making things carbon copies of other things. You can see this plainly as soon as you choose to not remain ignorant.

And rivens add power so those items perform better than others, same with augments. Yet you advocate everything to just be bland and the same, and arguing power gaps are bad, while power gaps through rivens etc. is what makes that bland weapon used. You are also now talking about the very thing I've said. Stats wont help if it means to just bring them closer, unique mechanics are needed. And wow, gee, what happens then? Oh my, the weapons are no longer bland! Like I said before, adding just the incarnon passive perks to most of those weapons wouldnt have helped them, the actual incarnon form did. Also not quite sure what the elements have to do with things when we are talking weapon stats. More than kinda proving my point that even if you bring stats up to equal, damage types will still decide which weapons dominate usage.

So why were you so hellbent on the whole bring items closer through normalized stats before? I mean I've mentioned the unique mechanics quite a few time and yet you didnt realize it until now? It's practically what I'd want to see for more weapons through incarnon, since it would both buff all variants at once plus bring new mechanics to the whole family. Same reason why I want mobs with unique mechanics instead of just stat alterations, since unique mechanics can shift things up during regular gameplay, while allowing trash to be trashy trash.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And yet DE has spent considerable effort working on those "bland" weapons. Incarnons, Rivens, augments, etc. as I mentioned before. It's almost like the developer of the game sees something you don't? 🤔

Yep, which I've mentioned several times over in this thread, that incarnons for more weapons would be a good idea. I've never been against buffs, I'm against the "bring things closer" through simply stat squashing. You would have likely seen this if you had actually quoted things in context, which would have made it harder for you to forget what the other person actually brought up. Hence why I quote your full paragraphs, so nothing is pulled out of context.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

There's just so much to unpack here. You're still insisting on this conspiracy theory "everything would be the same" nonsense that simply isn't true. That's just your personal, irrational fear based on nothing more than your unwillingness to actually consider what I say. Just like on so many of the other topics you and I have discussed, whether it was about looter shooters or Shards or alternate Circuit rewards, you've jumped to your own wild interpretation of what I've said and stubbornly refuse to listen when I tell you that your interpretation is wrong. I've explained with examples, anecdotes, simple math, official stats, the game's historical changes, quotes from the developer, and a whole thread that explains what I personally think in fine detail... yet you seem to think that you know what I'm saying better than I do.

Which is probably why your statement here comes off as so, idk, unhinged. "If you gave me more guns to play with I'D THROW THEM ALL AWAY 😡". Ok, so throw a tantrum. There's no reason for you to do this, but if you want to plug your ears I'm not gonna stop you.

You've been adamant about bringing things closer together through stats in this thread. Not until now have you actually started to talk about what I've already talked about for pages. I've already brought up incarnons early on in this convo and said that would be a good idea to bridge the gaps and naturally tighten families just as it currently does. What I refer to in the part you quoted here is if bland weapons stay bland through stat squashing, at which point keeping weapons would be pointless.

But if you actually want the incarnon approach to more items I'm fully behind that. Since I dont mind the chance to maybe find a new cool mechanic for a currently bland weapon while someone else (you for instance) might enjoy blandness and get a basic stat boost.

Also, you again bring up that you use DE quotes. But you avoid to mention that you ignore them when it doesnt suit you. Like how I pointed out that DE according to the quote you provided are of the opinion that AoE is "fixed" in the game we play now. Since what you quote is reasoning regarding changes now made to AoE. Yet you harp on about AoE being disruptive? But you just also said that DE quotes are proof of intent. But then, how can DE reason regarding changes that are now live as a fix to AoE they saw as issues while AoE is still disruptive at the same time? Did DE fix it or does the official quotes from DE really just mean nothing? Or do they only mean something when you need them to?

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Jesus christ...

So when I said that level range is part of the picture, because there’s the whole rest of the non-SP game too, and talked about Arbitrations and Sorties and bounties, it went over your head. When I said that level range allows me to do things that SP or Sorties or even Arbitrations doesn’t, and then Arbitrations lets me do what Sorties or Star-chart levels don’t, and then building for level 40 and taking it to 50 to push that custom build or taking it to level 30 to make the build perform differently and typicaly better compared to 40 is different to building for 50 or 30, and building for a range around level 50 and taking it to level 60 is different to building for level 80, that went over your head. And when I said that the different levels and different content and different missions combined with different ways to build and loadouts to make enable different ways to play and parts of the kit get used in different ways accordingly in this game that’s not so straightforward to match the content as other simple stat games like WoW or Diablo (which I even said it was fine to not immediately grasp how to build for the content because it’s not so obvious even if it’s not as scary as people think), and when I say things like a level 140 enemy and a level 140 SP enemy are not equivalent due to the modifiers that help SP do what it’s meant to do, and a build for 140 would behave different between a 140 mission and 140 SP mission, that’s all over your head. Amongst many other things.

You got hyperfixated on that level range and completely ignored the fact that I’m roping Arbitrations, Sorties, bounties, Archons into the mix. Everything that’s not unbalanced SP, running the range of levels, the entire standard game. And then the whole game, every bit of standard content and non-standard content, contains SP which yes is worth poking around in due to how it’s a build-testing mode that scales infinitely and shortcuts you to higher-level enemies to eventually try and break your comparatively few best builds but isn’t the place to go for build and loadout variety by design because of what it’s meant to do and why it was introduced in the first place, and the modifiers that help it do its thing do not result in balanced gameplay and will never result in it so you don’t go to SP for balance or variety because of what it is

edit: And all of this ties into how squading up with other players plays out and why it plays out the way it does

That wasnt what you started out with. That you changed the song and dance later on doesnt matter. You initial statement is what matters since arbis and sorties are not the star chart, which is the thing you seperated so clearly from SP. I'd also like to point out that the difference between a 140 mission and a 140 SP mission is rather minimal, since SP just means you'll do it slightly slower. The threat overall is the same, the difference between SP and a SC 140 mission really only kicks in if you play solo endless, and that is due to the density, since that is the thing that boosts threat through more enemies attacking you at once in SC.

Also it's hilarious that you include Archons (and Netracells since you claim to include the whole game) and then single SP out as imbalanced when the two are nearly identical, with Archons also imposing further penalties on things that makes SP easier in return.

And what you claim is what designed to do and why it was introduced is not true. That went out the door long before it was ever added to the game. When it went live it was practically SC 2.0 with some unique rewards and a higher payout for a higher risk. So that is the intent of the design since that is what they released. Unless you imply they released something they didnt intend. And if it was what you claim it was designed for, it would actually be the place to go for build variety, since it was at first mention intended as both a shortcut to higher endless and a replacement for testing builds in Sim. But it turned into its own mode, where you can still use a multitude of builds, it all just depends how hard or easy you want it. If you want to start early on in your progress and then progress through SP, or wait until you can farm it without a sweat. Like most high level content in other games.

[Aruquae]

One day… this thread is going to be longer than the “Last 
post Wins” thread

And it’s still going to be 3 people arguing about God knows what at this point 

[Loza03]

16 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Which is a shame cause I loved the S#&$ out of RJ pre command intrinsic. I actually ran into a few good pubs where everyone knew what they were doing. We all call out a role (I usually was engineer, so no one touched the forge but me) and we played like a well oiled cohesive unit. Had a pub where we had went through all of Veil Proxima. So much fun. And I also loved Scarlet Spear. There were a few things they could had done to make that event flow better. I still do think RJ has a place in WF. Even Ops Link too. Not only with what you suggested but really big changes that would equate to Star Chart and Mission 3.0.

As the dedicated forge guy whenever I played multiplayer, I agree. Especially since I could also generally be 'on call' for anything else that needed doing. I feel like there's more that could have been done with the forge than just making it kind of irrelevant like it is now - even if they wanted to change the Flux system, which I get the reasons for, attaching the forge to more of the tactical screen might have been good. Maybe even revive the old hacking mechanic from the first release as an optional - it would have sucked for mandatory mission stuff as it was, but consider the Corpus objectives - imagine if the Forge guy could access a console which granted access to all the air support abilities of the frames on the ship, as well as maybe access to abilities like being able to reduce the electric pulse thingies when hacking or place down beacons that players can teleport to. Transfer the Flux energy mechanic to here for the limiter instead of the player's personal supply, and the Forge gameplay is kept intact without interfering with other player's gameplay.

To me it feels like a lot of the streamlining was to prepare the game mode for more complex objectives and thus you don't have as much time to focus on any one thing... and then it just never happened. Like, with the crew - the AI pilot eventually got the ability to target mission objectives (even though they're still bugged) but there's almost never a need to do that. I've gone on record a few times discussing how interesting a defense mode where players need to defend a whole ship from waves of enemy craft and waves upon waves of boarding crews could have been. Forge guy sending down revolite drops, rearming on-board defenses, Pilot and/or gunners taking out the ships outside whilst away needs to handle enemies that make it on board and keeping the objective in one piece.

[PR1D3]

35 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As the dedicated forge guy whenever I played multiplayer, I agree. Especially since I could also generally be 'on call' for anything else that needed doing. I feel like there's more that could have been done with the forge than just making it kind of irrelevant like it is now - even if they wanted to change the Flux system, which I get the reasons for, attaching the forge to more of the tactical screen might have been good. Maybe even revive the old hacking mechanic from the first release as an optional - it would have sucked for mandatory mission stuff as it was, but consider the Corpus objectives - imagine if the Forge guy could access a console which granted access to all the air support abilities of the frames on the ship, as well as maybe access to abilities like being able to reduce the electric pulse thingies when hacking or place down beacons that players can teleport to. Transfer the Flux energy mechanic to here for the limiter instead of the player's personal supply, and the Forge gameplay is kept intact without interfering with other player's gameplay.

To me it feels like a lot of the streamlining was to prepare the game mode for more complex objectives and thus you don't have as much time to focus on any one thing... and then it just never happened. Like, with the crew - the AI pilot eventually got the ability to target mission objectives (even though they're still bugged) but there's almost never a need to do that. I've gone on record a few times discussing how interesting a defense mode where players need to defend a whole ship from waves of enemy craft and waves upon waves of boarding crews could have been. Forge guy sending down revolite drops, rearming on-board defenses, Pilot and/or gunners taking out the ships outside whilst away needs to handle enemies that make it on board and keeping the objective in one piece.

I wish man. I would had loved that. I’ve always thought that the concept of mobile defense should be escorting a target. Hell, we don’t get any new hijack nodes anymore. What you describe would be so cool. Even Corpus Proxima had cool set ups. There’s a mobile defense where as soon as you completed a set, part of the station would disconnect & explode, so you would need to climb up to the next terminal.

That reminds me of the main Scarlet Spear problem. The satellite wasn’t being attacked by enemies. The Sentients and Grineer fought amongst each other. Which made it easier for space team to get max ops link on the murexes. They ate up the codes way too fast cause that one thing made it too easy for space pubs. If people had to defend them they would had not consumed ground codes as fast.

I will aways say that Warframe’s Mission sandbox is #*!%ing amazing. They could make some amazing stuff with what they got. Bounties and even that new netracell are almost Raid-lite and they’re awesome. More of that and less of this drugged out speed run stuff.