Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[darklord122]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

Good thing it’s been beaten down, deflated, and stuffed back into solo because it takes accidental consideration before I’m able to do anything in multiplayer, all by your heroic combined efforts.

You realise someone else down the line is going to, quite validly, speak up against the status quo once more, yah?

"Speaking up against the status quo" And "I want everyone to conform to the way I want to play in a multiplayer game about building yourself however you want" Are two very different things.

[Merkranire]

5 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

"Speaking up against the status quo" And "I want everyone to conform to the way I want to play in a multiplayer game about building yourself however you want" Are two very different things.

And the thing is, after all this time, you think that I’ve been arguing about playing my way. I’ve been arguing against playing your way, because your way is the problem in that it doesn’t leave any room for either my way or anyone else’s way because your way involves hogging all the game

You heard what you wanted to hear; the only way I could illustrate anything alternative to your way is to use a different way, and since your way is the way of the masses, who am I going to draw upon for some examples?

Edited February 7 by Merkranire

[darklord122]

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

And the thing is, after all this time, you think that I’ve been arguing about playing my way. I’ve been arguing against playing your way, because your way is the problem in that it doesn’t leave any room for either my way or anyone else’s way because your way involves hogging all the game

By arguing against how we play as a majority in a game where playing the way you want is the norm, And subsequently want us to go towards your way of play is a way of trying to make everyone else conform because you have nothing to do yet everyone else does somehow.


Just finished a normal mission with my full pablo secret boss SP build, Guess what everyone still got to play and get plenty of kills and resources.

Ceres, Exterminate if you have to ask. And another one on survival. Enjoy.

Edited February 7 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

By arguing against how we play as a majority in a game where playing the way you want is the norm, And subsequently want us to go towards your way of play is a way of trying to make everyone else conform because you have nothing to do yet everyone else does somehow.


Just finished a normal mission with my full pablo secret boss SP build, Guess what everyone still got to play.

Ceres, Exterminate if you have to ask. And another one on survival. Enjoy.

Stick to SP

[darklord122]

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Stick to SP

No, Don't have to. Clearly also still works for everyone else involved.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 14 minutos, Merkranire dijo:

Good thing it’s been beaten down, deflated, and stuffed back into solo because it takes accidental consideration before I’m able to do anything in multiplayer, all by your heroic combined efforts.

You realise someone else down the line is going to, quite validly, speak up against the status quo once more, yah?

and they will tell that someone the same thing, because no matter how much that person insists, this game is not designed to please them personally.

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

No, Don't have to. Clearly also still works for everyone else involved.

Guess we’re most likely gonna have a problem then if you’re gonna bring your big-boy builds to someplace that doesn’t need it. The content isn’t designed for it, and you know it

[darklord122]

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Guess we’re most likely gonna have a problem then if you’re gonna bring your big-boy builds to someplace that doesn’t need it. The content isn’t designed for it, and you know it

The game allows it, And encourages it to go further and higher.

Killing things easier does not = Not designed for it. It just means you have gotten past the difficulty threshold of it. And any player should be happy about that.

You just arent.

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

The game allows it, And encourages it to go further and higher.

Killing things easier does not = Not designed for it. It just means you have gotten past the difficulty threshold of it. And any player should be happy about that.

You just arent.

Sure. It’s as simple as that

[darklord122]

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Sure. It’s as simple as that

Indeed it is.

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

Indeed it is.

Haha.

Anyways, I’ll see you around. You win

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Warframe is NOT designed for you to be changing your build to "level down" to sync with the level of the content.

The very fact that relics are required to be cracked from all 4 eras, including Lith, super low level missions, which are relevant content to end game players who are farming the things they can only get from these relics... shows that you bring whatever gear you want to every mission... and those missions span the entire range of the enemy levels on the star chart (and beyond, now). While people CAN go to Steel Path fissures, if they WANT that level of increased challenge, and the rewards unique to Steel Path (Steel Essence, Acolyte mods, etc), that is not the expectation, or base line, of all players to ONLY play in the missions that they are geared for.

We only have 3 build slots per Warframe. These builds are generally not built to be scaled to 3 levels of content, but around different ways to equally min-max different abilities, but all end-game viable (or at least as high as you can currently push your frame to succeed.)

It is ENTIRELY unreasonable to expect people to change their builds so that they are WEAKER than they can be, just so other players "have something to do"... they are built to succeed at mission objectives. It REALLY doesn't matter what each individual contributes, as long as the mission is successful.

(I've never once been mad at "leechers" and find that entire complaint unreasonable, because people can generally solo these missions anyway... HOWEVER, if they're just sitting at the starting location, and don't even run to extraction, forcing the timer to run out... they're truly leeching dead weight, unless a real life thing happened that forced them to leave and take care of it (as rare as that really happens)... and while this is neither here nor there... it does have tangential impact on the topic at hand.)

Anyway... yeah... I can't find any reasonable way to support your desire to have people "gear for the content" so other players "have something to do"... it just doesn't make sense in the context of Warframe.

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Warframe is NOT designed for you to be changing your build to "level down" to sync with the level of the content.

The very fact that relics are required to be cracked from all 4 eras, including Lith, super low level missions, which are relevant content to end game players who are farming the things they can only get from these relics... shows that you bring whatever gear you want to every mission... and those missions span the entire range of the enemy levels on the star chart (and beyond, now). While people CAN go to Steel Path fissures, if they WANT that level of increased challenge, and the rewards unique to Steel Path (Steel Essence, Acolyte mods, etc), that is not the expectation, or base line, of all players to ONLY play in the missions that they are geared for.

We only have 3 build slots per Warframe. These builds are generally not built to be scaled to 3 levels of content, but around different ways to equally min-max different abilities, but all end-game viable (or at least as high as you can currently push your frame to succeed.)

It is ENTIRELY unreasonable to expect people to change their builds so that they are WEAKER than they can be, just so other players "have something to do"... they are built to succeed at mission objectives. It REALLY doesn't matter what each individual contributes, as long as the mission is successful.

(I've never once been mad at "leechers" and find that entire complaint unreasonable, because people can generally solo these missions anyway... HOWEVER, if they're just sitting at the starting location, and don't even run to extraction, forcing the timer to run out... they're truly leeching dead weight, unless a real life thing happened that forced them to leave and take care of it (as rare as that really happens)... and while this is neither here nor there... it does have tangential impact on the topic at hand.)

Anyway... yeah... I can't find any reasonable way to support your desire to have people "gear for the content" so other players "have something to do"... it just doesn't make sense in the context of Warframe.

Hey, I said it was that simple and that you guys won. Game’s always been an odd one, rewarding useless stuff at high levels and powerful stuff at low, but through the lens of strictly linear progression and superglueing builds into place, it makes sense.

10 years down the track and nothing for the most powerful of vets, real shame that

[TeaHands]

Happy Star Days Everyone!

 

[Skoomaseller]

10 hours ago, TeaHands said:

Happy Star Days Everyone!

cheers. 💕

[Nira]

10 hours ago, TeaHands said:

Happy Star Days Everyone!

 

*goes to shake your hand*

Huh... neat. 

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I’m not going to accept that some grindheads with zero consideration are worth joining or even respecting. You seriously think I’m now at a point where I start going “If you can’t beat them, join them”? If anything I’m farther from that than I’ve ever been, because it’s blatantly obvious you’re not worth joining not only on principle, but also because the game itself, even for solo, doesn’t handle it well at all when I can’t step back and reconsider what I’m doing and how I’m going to achieve it. DE did something real stupid and trusted their players to identify when they’re doing something not-good and to stop doing the not-good thing which can just as easily take the form of something as simple as using a thing that wasn’t a problem until it becomes a problem and needs to at least be temporarily set aside by the player instead of straight up removed permanently. So listening to you makes for losing all round, since you only ever want me to do the not-good thing

I’m looking forward to making a Kullervo caster build and seeing how it can be tweaked and adjusted within the ever-shifting constraints of whatever various levels of content I’m doing and combinations of gear/schools/whatever I’m bringing but further customised than what you would do to still feel satisfying to use without being a problem for either myself or my teammates, because while it can be fun in moderation, it can get pretty boring if everything dies in one button press regardless of whether I’m squaded or not

That is alot of words to say that you think you are superior and your opinion is the way even though the thread shows the opposite.

Also. I did some bedtime philosphy regarding this whole "oh no ma killz haz gotted stolened!" thing for PuG, "SP builds" and so on. Well it is really a massive you issue in this case, and practically only an issue in 1 single game mode out of all in the whole game. Which is exterminate, since it is the only mission with a linear setup that requires multiple kills between DZ and EZ. No other mission will or should be a problem in a PuG, no matter the fluctuating power in builds of the memebers. I'll sum them up below.

Capture: Mode centered around reaching the target quickly to take it out. Speed is the key here, power isnt. Other mobs are not required to be killed, so no one will steal your kills no matter how poorly you are geared.

Sabotage: No killing needed whatsoever. Go from DZ to objective(s) to EZ.

Mob. Def: People will likely stick around the defense point and kill what comes close. Free to roam as you like to pick fights. Cant really steal kills here since the main point is letting the timer run out across 2-3 different locations.

Rescue: No kills needed.

Hijack: Heavy shield or health needed. Killing optional. Run off and kill all you like as the rest push the vehicle.

Rush: Enemies will converge from several locations, you should have your own spot to shoot your wet noodles at. Atleast 3 locations will have enemies pooring in, bunker, walkway and main door (leading to cannon)

Excav: Enough enemies in a full group so everyone has something to kill if killing is your only goal. I prefer to stick to the excav to make sure it is defended. King God Frost at your service. Enemies will come from all around, so you should always have a chance to pelt something with your noodle shooter or slap with your foam stick LARP sword.

Survival: Full density in a full group. Even with the best of weapons and isane KPM things will still constantly spawn. Which means if those specific weapons arent used, which they likely arent, there is more than enough for everyone in a PuG even on the SC. So feel free to engage in whatever way you like even if you arent killing fast.

Defense: Same as survival, max density in groups. Same as Excav, enemies will come from all around. Some people will stay to defend, others can chase. Both duties are needed and those defending likely wont mind not getting as many kills since they already perform a job for the mission to be a success. I'm that guy defending mostly. Again King God Frost at your service.

Interception: Well everyone has their spot. If you pull your weight or not is up to you. If not someone will likely babysit that spot too so it isnt lost as noodles are flying and LARP swords are swung by you.

Disruption: Low geared players can always kill carriers and trash, so they will have something to do that benefits the mission. Main PuG issue with disruption would be having different needs when it comes to rotational loot and not if someone has something to do or not.

Flood: Chase balls, no incentive to kill anything except a few ghastly Thraxes.

Cascade: Kill within the circles, so you should have good chance to "contribute" no matter how big the power difference in builds.

Armageddon: Turrets will likely rob everyone of a job since the mode is simply that trivial. You should probably yell at those turrets for being overgeared for the content and not considerate. Angel murdering and you providing something or not depends on the same as capture, are you fast enough?

Circuit: Game decides who has the upper hand. Maybe send some harsh letters to DE and tell them to make even worse loaner setups? DE certainly not considerate towards you.

Alchemy: Go kill where you want since we need as many throwy thingies as possible. Enough enemies for the whole block.

Mirror Defense: Go kill all you like, I'll chill at the defense point since killing isnt actually required. KGF at your service again!

Arbitration Defense: Hope to Hel that you arent running around chasing kills like an idiot here since it will likely mean the poor operative will start following you and getting killed. Find a good point as a group and everyone should likely have something to kill.

SO/ESO: No time to let you $&*^ around with an undermodded weapon/frame, even the game says so due to the efficiency mechanic. 

That should cover all modes. So again. Your problem, isolated to exterminate it is.

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That should cover all modes. So again. Your problem, isolated to exterminate it is.

I doubt they'll even read most of that to be honest.

But even if they did they aren't going to care because they don't want solutions, they don't want answers, they don't want help, they want to be angry at everyone else for not fitting precisely within a box that only they can define.

They want to be the sole arbiter of how a mission will go, they want to firmly define how strong everyone else is allowed to be so that they can feel like they contributed and should get the gold star of the mission.  They don't care what the other people in the mission want, they have their preconceived notions of how the round should go, and how dare anyone go against that!

They want it so that if you do a lith relic, because you need ducats or even a part, you go in un-modded in literally everything and don't even think about bringing anything with AoE capabilities (after all even un-modded frames will literally one-shot any lith mission), just so that they can feel like they get a gold star.  It doesn't matter how much the rest of the group just wanted to breeze through the mission quickly.  It doesn't matter why anyone else is doing the mission.  The only thing that matters is they want their gold star and to have the game played exactly how they define it to be.

They want it so that if you do an endless mode you psychically know ahead of time if you'll be matched with them, and how long they want to go, and therefore limit your mods and ability usage to just that arbitrary timestamp without taking any of your own desires into consideration.

 

They won't be happy having a corner of a survival to kill enemies in because they'll just see that everyone else has hundreds or thousands more kills then them and will be upset because they weren't able to kill an equal number of enemies, and it's so unfair that players didn't come into the PUG with exactly that idea in mind that they must all kill the same amount of enemies!
And if anyone thinks that they might be struggling in his corner, then how dare they come over with their gear and clear the enemies swarming him!  Those were their enemies to kill!  To go out and kill their enemies is just rude and unacceptable!

They won't be happy in a capture mission because everyone will just speed run the mission and leave them lagging behind until either they manage to catch up, or the extraction timer forces the mission to end because they want to go slowly through each and every tile along the way.

 

It doesn't matter if they are slowing down the defense mission, it doesn't matter if they are causing a minor life support issue in survival, all that matters is that they earn the gold star and force everyone to comply with their exacting requirements.

 

They have already shown in their replies that they don't care what anyone else thinks or wants, they have a notion of how a match should go and they have the final say in that!  And everyone else just needs to learn to be psychic and accommodate their desires when they come across him in a PUG.

They haven't shown any willingness to actually work with anyone else or compromise.

Sure they go on about "I build so that everyone can do stuff!" which is just empty air that doesn't really mean anything because they can't know what other people want.  They just want to sound like they have some moral high-ground, when they are just trying to force everyone to play to their exacting rules.

 

They are the sort of player to pretty much rag on meta strategies in literally every game they come across because their feelings get hurt when someone running a meta strategy outdoes them, which is just rude!
It doesn't matter if it's a co-op game or not, you have to play purposefully un-optimized and slowly because otherwise you'll outdo them and hurt their feelings.  It doesn't matter what you want or how you want to play, or even how the vast majority of the playerbase is wanting to play, if you outdo them then you should be kicked out.

 

 

While you're argument with them may be somewhat entertaining to watch, and may be cathartic for you to take part in, you're not going to get through their head any time soon.  You would have more luck trying to talk a brick wall into collapsing by itself then getting through their skull.

[PublikDomain]

14 hours ago, darklord122 said:

The game allows it, And encourages it to go further and higher.

Killing things easier does not = Not designed for it. It just means you have gotten past the difficulty threshold of it. And any player should be happy about that.

You just arent.

Allows and encourages doesn't mean it's designed for it. There are plenty of design decisions DE has made that actively try to counter how easy it is to kill things. What was Attenuation designed for if not literally that? What was Overguard designed for? What was the design behind SP? Or the design reason DE takes away your gear during quests like TWW and content like Kahl? Why can't you take whatever gear you want into The Circuit? Why do we have so many wait-for-the-timer modes like Mirror Defense where killing things has no impact on the mission? Why are Netracells designed the way they are? Why did DE make those AoE weapon ammo changes a while back?

Quote

3) “Is this playstyle disruptive to other players?” 
A majority of sessions are played co-op, so ideally everybody gets a chance to play. We’ve reached a point where players are asking us to change these weapons, because they leave so little for others to do.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1321162-veilbreaker-update-32

 

Quote

We understand the importance of power fantasy, but overbearing abilities can make squadmates feel ineffective by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/915093-dev-workshop-warframes-revisited/

That last quote is so old it's talking about nerfing Volt. This has been going on for years and is quite literally what the OP is talking about. People feel that they don't get a chance to play because their squadmates are allowed to make everyone else redundant and leave nothing for anyone else to do "by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow". It's not something to be happy about.

[MirageKnight]

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

That last quote is so old it's talking about nerfing Volt. This has been going on for years and is quite literally what the OP is talking about. People feel that they don't get a chance to play because their squadmates are allowed to make everyone else redundant and leave nothing for anyone else to do "by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow". It's not something to be happy about.

Finally - some common sense!

So far, this thread has been flooded with self-serving, narrow-minded rhetoric aimed at preserving an arguably broken status quo.

You know why I play solo? Because I want to be able to play the game, as opposed to trying to find enemies to kill when you have speed freaks nuking rooms ahead of you.

Granted, DE needs to make more of an effort to balance power levels so everyone gets to enjoy the gam, but tryhard players that actively go out of their way to abuse a broken system with room cleaning builds are not helping matters any. In fact, they’re only serving to frustrate and alienate normal players that just want to enjoy the game.

“I should be able to play this game the way I want to!”

Not when your way prevents other players from having fun. Because then you’re just being an inconsiderate, selfish tool with no regard for anyone else.

[darklord122]

53 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Allows and encourages doesn't mean it's designed for it. There are plenty of design decisions DE has made that actively try to counter how easy it is to kill things. What was Attenuation designed for if not literally that? What was Overguard designed for? What was the design behind SP? Or the design reason DE takes away your gear during quests like TWW and content like Kahl? Why can't you take whatever gear you want into The Circuit? Why do we have so many wait-for-the-timer modes like Mirror Defense where killing things has no impact on the mission? Why are Netracells designed the way they are? Why did DE make those AoE weapon ammo changes a while back?

 

That last quote is so old it's talking about nerfing Volt. This has been going on for years and is quite literally what the OP is talking about. People feel that they don't get a chance to play because their squadmates are allowed to make everyone else redundant and leave nothing for anyone else to do "by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow". It's not something to be happy about.

Damage reduction is encountered on every level of every mission and not just low level ones and any game like this has this basic modifier in to while not killing things too easily on respective levels you can still reach past those with proper builds. Overguard was designed as a way to counteract instant kills using warframe abilities and to subsequently increase difficulties of the at the time easiest to kill mid to end game enemies.
And while that system is in place its still a difficulty you can get over whether or not you are running normal or SP. Its a design choice to give a bigger challenge to enemies on their own respective levels and to build accordingly.

However, As long as DE keeps the system the way it is and continues to encourage people to go higher in endless missions whether they be SP or not, Killing enemies quickly is always going to be the go to in almost any mode. And unless you suggest that one of two things happen, Either A, Endgame players get gated from all subsequent normal missions and get locked into SP (even though it still happens there) Or B, You suggest having everyone deal the same amount of damage across all levels in the entire game and only increasing such damage when reaching thresholds increments with either levels or more other ways of gating.

One can still balance a game to include less of a thing and still encourage players to get stronger.

The circuit does not allow you to use gear to incentivize you to build with what you get and also to keep getting a new and fresh look at loadouts and what wacky things you can make with the choices you are presented.
Still does not stop people from getting to ludicrous levels as its just a design philosophy to make the mode harder and more interesting.

And just because AOE got nerfed does not mean the wanted to stop people from using it. Nor are Netracells a design just to be a hurdle, Its supposed to endgame so of course its going to have a challenge ramp up.

The reasons you state are for different situations of challenge that can be overcome, Kahl being a fairly poor example since its supposed to be a standalone experience cut off from the rest of the game. TWW also being a slightly poor example as even without the gear wheel it does not stop you from using everything else at hand. Its not as integral as you make it to be.


While circumstances do occur where people do not get to kill enemies to a certain extent its not as if your squadmates have been gatekeeping the modes from you and all players will eventually reach the same endpoint with enough time.

And its impossible to regulate it without either endgame becoming trivialized or making everyones hard work at higher levels not matter by grounding everyone to the same level.

So yes players should feel happy and rewarded for being able to enact their power fantasies in a game about making your own power fantasy. And while some players do suffer as a consequence there are ways to mitigate it by squading up with like-minded people and friends, And its not every mission a high end player will ruin things for the rest of the team. Its usually during specific mission tilesets where a reward needs to be attained fast or XP needs to be farmed like on hydron. Even then ive rarely seen entire maps be nuked without any chance for play.


My main point is the game is designed for you to build yourself to be the best you can be, And if your best is put down by others then how are you supposed to play a game centered around the very idea of becoming strong in thousands of different ways. Should people be penalized for it?

Some things can and always be nerfed once they get too powerful which they already have been and continues to be.

But punishing players for playing the way the game encourages you to do is asinine.

Edited February 7 by darklord122

[darklord122]

15 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Finally - some common sense!

So far, this thread has been flooded with self-serving, narrow-minded rhetoric aimed at preserving an arguably broken status quo.

You know why I play solo? Because I want to be able to play the game, as opposed to trying to find enemies to kill when you have speed freaks nuking rooms ahead of you.

Granted, DE needs to make more of an effort to balance power levels so everyone gets to enjoy the gam, but tryhard players that actively go out of their way to abuse a broken system with room cleaning builds are not helping matters any. In fact, they’re only serving to frustrate and alienate normal players that just want to enjoy the game.

“I should be able to play this game the way I want to!”

Not when your way prevents other players from having fun. Because then you’re just being an inconsiderate, selfish tool with no regard for anyone else.

The game "having a broken system" Is ultimately a false statement when DE themselves add things only for players to get stronger.
Like:
Arcanes.
Rivens.
Incarnons.
Shards, And tauforged stronger variants and fused versions. And an easier way to get them in the future.
Umbral mods and forma.
Primes which has an increase in stats compared to the normal version and advantages over the base.
Galvanized mods.
Augment mods to tailor your strengths closer to what you want or to support who you want.

These are things any player can get at basically any intervals of the game.


And unless they subsequently gut an entire system and nerf the entire baseline the system will always be according to you broken.

I can agree certain nuking warframes can be pulled back a little. But the game ultimately encourages you to build yourself stronger with almost every reward in the game.

Edited February 7 by darklord122

[Tsukinoki]

24 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

I can agree certain nuking warframes can be pulled back a little. But the game ultimately encourages you to build yourself stronger with almost every reward in the game.

The other, and just as important, issue here is that Warframe requires you to play low level missions for some rewards.

You need Kuva/requiem relics?  Do some low level kuva syphon missions.
You need endo/vitus?  Do some low level aribtrations.
You need focus?  Do some low level SO/ESO.
You need syndicate standing?  Do some low level missions.
You need arcanes?  Guess what you need to do?

And by low level I mean in comparison to what players can get to in SP and the like.
For some players arbitrations might be "high level" gameplay, but it's not really.

 

And there really isn't too many ways to go out and do that stuff at a higher level.

 

And that's if you ignore how the higher level content is largely empty because there simply isn't anything to make players spend the extra time in missions needed to clear the higher levels.
The rewards for spending a bit of extra time to do a SP exterminate fissure compared to a normal exterminate fissure is laughable.  Especially since you can do 2 normal fissures in the time it takes to do a single SP one.

And that's even if there is a good fissure at SP levels to run for what you want!
Especially considering that there are generally less SP fissures than normal fissures.  Right now for instance there are 5 SP void fissures, 1 Lith, 1 Meso, 1 Neo, and 2 Axi fissures, and 2 requiem fissures.
On the other hand there are 7 normal void fissures, 1 Lith, 2 Meso, 1 Neo, 3 Axi fissures, and 3 requiem fissures.
Gee, I wonder which version of the starchart gives players more options and doable ways to grind out prime sets?

 

The simple fact is that the vast majority of rewards that players need are only really available at lower levels!
And even for things that do have SP variants they aren't rewarding enough for the extra time it takes.
And because of that you're especially punished for trying to do SP fissures because you can't find people to group with because they don't offer a reward worth all the extra time to get through the mission.

 

So not only does the game constantly reward you with bigger and stronger and better stuff....it then turns around and goes "Ok, play in the lith sandbox for the rare part of the new prime frame that just came out!"
The game does absolutely nothing to encourage or reward players for spending the extra time in higher level missions....and then people blame the players for not playing the higher level missions.

Edited February 7 by Tsukinoki

[darklord122]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

The other, and just as important, issue here is that Warframe requires you to play low level missions for some rewards.

You need Kuva/requiem relics?  Do some low level kuva syphon missions.
You need endo/vitus?  Do some low level aribtrations.
You need focus?  Do some low level SO/ESO.
You need syndicate standing?  Do some low level missions.
You need arcanes?  Guess what you need to do?

And by low level I mean in comparison to what players can get to in SP and the like.
For some players arbitrations might be "high level" gameplay, but it's not really.

 

And there really isn't too many ways to go out and do that stuff at a higher level.

 

And that's if you ignore how the higher level content is largely empty because there simply isn't anything to make players spend the extra time in missions needed to clear the higher levels.
The rewards for spending a bit of extra time to do a SP exterminate fissure compared to a normal exterminate fissure is laughable.  Especially since you can do 2 normal fissures in the time it takes to do a single SP one.

And that's even if there is a good fissure at SP levels to run for what you want!
Especially considering that there are generally less SP fissures than normal fissures.  Right now for instance there are 5 SP void fissures, 1 Lith, 1 Meso, 1 Neo, and 2 Axi fissures, and 2 requiem fissures.
On the other hand there are 7 normal void fissures, 1 Lith, 2 Meso, 1 Neo, 3 Axi fissures, and 3 requiem fissures.
Gee, I wonder which version of the starchart gives players more options and doable ways to grind out prime sets?

 

The simple fact is that the vast majority of rewards that players need are only really available at lower levels!
And even for things that do have SP variants they aren't rewarding enough for the extra time it takes.
And because of that you're especially punished for trying to do SP fissures because you can't find people to group with because they don't offer a reward worth all the extra time to get through the mission.

 

So not only does the game constantly reward you with bigger and stronger and better stuff....it then turns around and goes "Ok, play in the lith sandbox for the rare part of the new prime frame that just came out!"
The game does absolutely nothing to encourage or reward players for spending the extra time in higher level missions....and then people blame the players for not playing the higher level missions.

Agree with basically everything here, One thing that can somewhat mitigate this is to give more rewards towards SP in general to give more incentives for high level builds.

Even then low level missions will still be one of the most go-to missions to play because basically everything you need and require is there.

[Merkranire]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is alot of words to say that you think you are superior and your opinion is the way even though the thread shows the opposite.

Also. I did some bedtime philosphy regarding this whole "oh no ma killz haz gotted stolened!" thing for PuG, "SP builds" and so on. Well it is really a massive you issue in this case, and practically only an issue in 1 single game mode out of all in the whole game. Which is exterminate, since it is the only mission with a linear setup that requires multiple kills between DZ and EZ. No other mission will or should be a problem in a PuG, no matter the fluctuating power in builds of the memebers. I'll sum them up below.

Capture: Mode centered around reaching the target quickly to take it out. Speed is the key here, power isnt. Other mobs are not required to be killed, so no one will steal your kills no matter how poorly you are geared.

Sabotage: No killing needed whatsoever. Go from DZ to objective(s) to EZ.

Mob. Def: People will likely stick around the defense point and kill what comes close. Free to roam as you like to pick fights. Cant really steal kills here since the main point is letting the timer run out across 2-3 different locations.

Rescue: No kills needed.

Hijack: Heavy shield or health needed. Killing optional. Run off and kill all you like as the rest push the vehicle.

Rush: Enemies will converge from several locations, you should have your own spot to shoot your wet noodles at. Atleast 3 locations will have enemies pooring in, bunker, walkway and main door (leading to cannon)

Excav: Enough enemies in a full group so everyone has something to kill if killing is your only goal. I prefer to stick to the excav to make sure it is defended. King God Frost at your service. Enemies will come from all around, so you should always have a chance to pelt something with your noodle shooter or slap with your foam stick LARP sword.

Survival: Full density in a full group. Even with the best of weapons and isane KPM things will still constantly spawn. Which means if those specific weapons arent used, which they likely arent, there is more than enough for everyone in a PuG even on the SC. So feel free to engage in whatever way you like even if you arent killing fast.

Defense: Same as survival, max density in groups. Same as Excav, enemies will come from all around. Some people will stay to defend, others can chase. Both duties are needed and those defending likely wont mind not getting as many kills since they already perform a job for the mission to be a success. I'm that guy defending mostly. Again King God Frost at your service.

Interception: Well everyone has their spot. If you pull your weight or not is up to you. If not someone will likely babysit that spot too so it isnt lost as noodles are flying and LARP swords are swung by you.

Disruption: Low geared players can always kill carriers and trash, so they will have something to do that benefits the mission. Main PuG issue with disruption would be having different needs when it comes to rotational loot and not if someone has something to do or not.

Flood: Chase balls, no incentive to kill anything except a few ghastly Thraxes.

Cascade: Kill within the circles, so you should have good chance to "contribute" no matter how big the power difference in builds.

Armageddon: Turrets will likely rob everyone of a job since the mode is simply that trivial. You should probably yell at those turrets for being overgeared for the content and not considerate. Angel murdering and you providing something or not depends on the same as capture, are you fast enough?

Circuit: Game decides who has the upper hand. Maybe send some harsh letters to DE and tell them to make even worse loaner setups? DE certainly not considerate towards you.

Alchemy: Go kill where you want since we need as many throwy thingies as possible. Enough enemies for the whole block.

Mirror Defense: Go kill all you like, I'll chill at the defense point since killing isnt actually required. KGF at your service again!

Arbitration Defense: Hope to Hel that you arent running around chasing kills like an idiot here since it will likely mean the poor operative will start following you and getting killed. Find a good point as a group and everyone should likely have something to kill.

SO/ESO: No time to let you $&*^ around with an undermodded weapon/frame, even the game says so due to the efficiency mechanic. 

That should cover all modes. So again. Your problem, isolated to exterminate it is.

5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

I doubt they'll even read most of that to be honest.

But even if they did they aren't going to care because they don't want solutions, they don't want answers, they don't want help, they want to be angry at everyone else for not fitting precisely within a box that only they can define.

They want to be the sole arbiter of how a mission will go, they want to firmly define how strong everyone else is allowed to be so that they can feel like they contributed and should get the gold star of the mission.  They don't care what the other people in the mission want, they have their preconceived notions of how the round should go, and how dare anyone go against that!

They want it so that if you do a lith relic, because you need ducats or even a part, you go in un-modded in literally everything and don't even think about bringing anything with AoE capabilities (after all even un-modded frames will literally one-shot any lith mission), just so that they can feel like they get a gold star.  It doesn't matter how much the rest of the group just wanted to breeze through the mission quickly.  It doesn't matter why anyone else is doing the mission.  The only thing that matters is they want their gold star and to have the game played exactly how they define it to be.

They want it so that if you do an endless mode you psychically know ahead of time if you'll be matched with them, and how long they want to go, and therefore limit your mods and ability usage to just that arbitrary timestamp without taking any of your own desires into consideration.

 

They won't be happy having a corner of a survival to kill enemies in because they'll just see that everyone else has hundreds or thousands more kills then them and will be upset because they weren't able to kill an equal number of enemies, and it's so unfair that players didn't come into the PUG with exactly that idea in mind that they must all kill the same amount of enemies!
And if anyone thinks that they might be struggling in his corner, then how dare they come over with their gear and clear the enemies swarming him!  Those were their enemies to kill!  To go out and kill their enemies is just rude and unacceptable!

They won't be happy in a capture mission because everyone will just speed run the mission and leave them lagging behind until either they manage to catch up, or the extraction timer forces the mission to end because they want to go slowly through each and every tile along the way.

 

It doesn't matter if they are slowing down the defense mission, it doesn't matter if they are causing a minor life support issue in survival, all that matters is that they earn the gold star and force everyone to comply with their exacting requirements.

 

They have already shown in their replies that they don't care what anyone else thinks or wants, they have a notion of how a match should go and they have the final say in that!  And everyone else just needs to learn to be psychic and accommodate their desires when they come across him in a PUG.

They haven't shown any willingness to actually work with anyone else or compromise.

Sure they go on about "I build so that everyone can do stuff!" which is just empty air that doesn't really mean anything because they can't know what other people want.  They just want to sound like they have some moral high-ground, when they are just trying to force everyone to play to their exacting rules.

 

They are the sort of player to pretty much rag on meta strategies in literally every game they come across because their feelings get hurt when someone running a meta strategy outdoes them, which is just rude!
It doesn't matter if it's a co-op game or not, you have to play purposefully un-optimized and slowly because otherwise you'll outdo them and hurt their feelings.  It doesn't matter what you want or how you want to play, or even how the vast majority of the playerbase is wanting to play, if you outdo them then you should be kicked out.

 

 

While you're argument with them may be somewhat entertaining to watch, and may be cathartic for you to take part in, you're not going to get through their head any time soon.  You would have more luck trying to talk a brick wall into collapsing by itself then getting through their skull.

Sorry Ervin, you got here too late. Your friends beat me black and blue and stuffed me back into solo.

What can I say? It’s that simple, you hit the nail on the head. Whatever you think is simple, it’s as simple as you think it is

 🤔 Really wish DE realised they were making WoW with guns, because after 10 years the best they’ve done is SP and specifically said they weren’t balancing around it at the start, begging the question what are they balancing for because the core elements of the mode, unbalanced spawnrates and armourscaling, have not been changed since except at the very start when they made the mode easier

But I digress. You won! 🎉 Though you probably won’t like the victim card I’m about to play next, because it’s for you.

There’s nothing special about your build, I’ll end up with the same exact components in due time, probably make the same exact build accidentally, and then decide it’s not for me or not what I want to use for multiplayer, and boom, it’s set to the side if not broken apart. No muss, no fuss, my team isn’t sidelined and I’m playing the game instead of wondering why the extraction point in a randomly generated tileset is 700 metres away instead of 400 because 400 gives me optimal grind speed. And that’s the key part; I’m not limited. Invigorations, Arbitration bonuses, those little cracks on the wall in Lua, Relic buffs, every mod, companion, weapon, Warframe, school, gearwheel item, every combination of everything has a place to use it, and I’m not having to sit around not moving due to Too Much Powah destroying my teammate’s gameplay because I know how much powah is too much and can just make a different build that I want to use, and I’m doing everything you can do on top of it.

You see why I’m playing the victim card on your behalf? Because I look at you, and think “My god, I’m glad I’m not like you, because that sounds miserable and not very fun”. Amongst all that frustration of dealing with you and your buddies, there’s pity. And you can spin that however you like, at the end of the day, the only limit anyone imposes on me is when you steal the game away, and I didn’t even want to match with you in the first place, so a mere filter will top everything off