Inaros "Rework" Lackluster

[Ceadeus]

Now I'm gonna start this out by stating 2 things. 1. I know they said this rework wasn't going to be very intense so to expect anything huge is already just having unrealistic expectations.  2. I also know that Inaros is "strong" in his high survivability and that makes up a large part of the value of his kit.  However, even with both of those things in mind, I feel like I'm not alone in saying what was shown on today's Devstream 177 was pretty underwhelming for a frame that has needed attention for SO long.

Inaros' state has been such an issue for such a long time that the game has evolved around him to actually invalidate most of what little case existed against his need for change which was always his survivability.  Back when Inaros came out that was a huge trait that had a lot of helpful scenarios, but as the game has moved on, all the frames have become more and more tanky or gained access to better and better survival tools to the point that with skilled play you can easily become functionally immortal anyway, leaving Inaros' main function to just be a skill gap bandaid.  This issue is further compounded by the fact that Inaros definitely has the most boring kit of all the frames in the game, with his live iteration centering almost exclusively around slow, single target, low damage, stationary, or mediocre effectiveness CC abilities that hold next to no value in the modern state of the game.  Now the proposed rework does a little bit to fix this issue with the reworked sandstorm and scarab swarm being faster-paced and covering a little more ground, but those still definitely aren't competing with a lot of the newer frame designs that do what those abilities are doing better, faster, farther, in addition to other things at the same time, not to mention things like his 1 centering around a pure flavor gimmick like finishers that most people don't really do in the fast pace of missions and the fact that his new 3 is just a chopped off part of his existing 4.

It's just really sad to see an awesome concept like Inaros with such rich potential for cool abilities and interactions in his lore and theme get relegated to a dust bunny filled with mildly annoying bugs, especially to know that the fact he got any attention at all means he's effectively shoved to the back of the line again for any potential future changes as well.  I'm not going to ignore his survivability or act like his abilities don't have niche uses, but I still feel like those are wildly overshadowed by the potential of almost any other frame these days.  I hope we can see a bit further iteration on these concepts in the near future.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Ceadeus said:

like his 1 centering around a pure flavor gimmick like finishers that most people don't really do in the fast pace of missions

It's still CC. For 25 energy it's ok. It's not like you have to do finishers. They are here for you IF YOU NEED. Then his 2 will heal so less need for it.

The problem is the augment. It's nice concept but bad implementation. Here is more:

 

1 hour ago, Ceadeus said:

I hope we can see a bit further iteration on these concepts in the near future.

To be honest I think it's pretty decent concept, at least 2-4 + passive. DE/Pablo changed what was horrible (tornado and static suck) and put some flavors to abilities. It hasn't removed "interesting" parts like with the case of Hydroid (well, unless you find slowly sucking enemies with current 2nd good/interesting).

I feel like we will get only small tweak.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Inaros hasn't needed a "look into for so long". Folks only started consistently complaining about him when Overguard came in. He barely needed a change and so barely got one.

In the meantime frames like Trinity have 4 outdated powers, and Caliban released with either bad or already outdated powers making up his 4, and no news at all about them being looked at among others. 

[Ceadeus]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

It's still CC. For 25 energy it's ok. It's not like you have to do finishers. They are here for you IF YOU NEED. Then his 2 will heal so less need for it.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

To be honest I think it's pretty decent concept, at least 2-4 + passive. DE/Pablo changed what was horrible (tornado and static suck) and put some flavors to abilities. It hasn't removed "interesting" parts like with the case of Hydroid (well, unless you find slowly sucking enemies with current 2nd good/interesting).

I feel like we will get only small tweak.

I'm aware, like I said, it's not like he's worse or completely useless, he's just not good either.  The CC isn't great comparatively with other frames and the finishers break up the flow of gameplay too much to be worth anything.  Inaros' main positive has always been his insane survivability, but as already point out, even that's completely overshadowed by other frames that also do infinitely better in both CC and damage departments.

But Hydroid is also a prime example of a rework done right.  Hydroid went from one of the worst frames in the game who really only served as a mediocre lootboost gimmick or a single extremely slow paced synergy between puddle and barrage's augment to one of the strongest non-room-nuke frames with much more effective abilities, much better synergy between the rest of his kit, and an insanely good passive.  So while the loss of puddle is tragic and it would've been cool to see it kept alive somehow, nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff at least.
 

34 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Inaros hasn't needed a "look into for so long". Folks only started consistently complaining about him when Overguard came in. He barely needed a change and so barely got one.

In the meantime frames like Trinity have 4 outdated powers, and Caliban released with either bad or already outdated powers making up his 4, and no news at all about them being looked at among others. 

I don't know what game you've been playing or how new you are but people have been talking about Inaros' need for a rework for years, LONG before overguard was ever a thing.  Inaros was invalidated well before then and really only exists for players who didn't have the mechanical skill/reactions to sustain the multiple other forms of immortality available to them.  His kit is just conceptually very boring and ineffective.  He was designed in a time where the maximum enemy density you'd be fighting at one time was typically about 6 and just hasn't evolved to keep up with the pace of the game at all and even in his prime he was really more of a glorified healthbar than a frame that actually had any effective abilities.

As for Trinity, her abilities are actually pretty good, they just suffer from the fact that there's virtually no content in the game where a medic or energy battery is really necessary because of the nature of the previously mentioned immortality methods for every frame in addition to the ever-growing focus towards mass extinction events being a baseline expectation for frames.  Caliban is at least conceptually interesting (with the exception of his 1 which is for some reason just a copy of Revenant's 4) but just really weak with no form of proper scaling (which Inaros also suffers from btw) so I'd still say he needs less drastic changes than Inaros to be in a decent spot.

Edited February 24 by Ceadeus

[(PSN)MYKK678]

49 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

I'm aware, like I said, it's not like he's worse or completely useless, he's just not good either.  The CC isn't great comparatively with other frames and the finishers break up the flow of gameplay too much to be worth anything.  Inaros' main positive has always been his insane survivability, but as already point out, even that's completely overshadowed by other frames that also do infinitely better in both CC and damage departments.

But Hydroid is also a prime example of a rework done right.  Hydroid went from one of the worst frames in the game who really only served as a mediocre lootboost gimmick or a single extremely slow paced synergy between puddle and barrage's augment to one of the strongest non-room-nuke frames with much more effective abilities, much better synergy between the rest of his kit, and an insanely good passive.  So while the loss of puddle is tragic and it would've been cool to see it kept alive somehow, nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff at least.
 

I don't know what game you've been playing or how new you are but people have been talking about Inaros' need for a rework for years, LONG before overguard was ever a thing.  Inaros was invalidated well before then and really only exists for players who didn't have the mechanical skill/reactions to sustain the multiple other forms of immortality available to them.  His kit is just conceptually very boring and ineffective.  He was designed in a time where the maximum enemy density you'd be fighting at one time was typically about 6 and just hasn't evolved to keep up with the pace of the game at all and even in his prime he was really more of a glorified healthbar than a frame that actually had any effective abilities.

As for Trinity, her abilities are actually pretty good, they just suffer from the fact that there's virtually no content in the game where a medic or energy battery is really necessary because of the nature of the previously mentioned immortality methods for every frame in addition to the ever-growing focus towards mass extinction events being a baseline expectation for frames.  Caliban is at least conceptually interesting (with the exception of his 1 which is for some reason just a copy of Revenant's 4) but just really weak with no form of proper scaling (which Inaros also suffers from btw) so I'd still say he needs less drastic changes than Inaros to be in a decent spot.

Might want to pump the brakes on your condescending replies or your thread won't last long.

As for the matter being discussed, I said consistently for a reason. An inaros rework thread popping up once every few months isn't consistent, nor does it somehow make it needed. And before Overguard was added that's what we had, one popping up every few months, because Inaros' 8k - 9k health pool, which turned into 10k with his prime, did the job.

And no, trinity doesn't have great powers. 2 of her powers place an enemy floating or stunned in one spot in order to give out health or energy. In a game which has been heading in a "run & gun" direction for the last few years. (And yes, this should probably be that moment when you regret bringing up if someone has been playing the game, yet you yourself can't see the problem with 2 powers holding singular enemies in one spot while everyone runs past them, contributing nothing)

The other 2 powers are nearly useless. One is supposed to either pass off damage to enemies or armour strip them, but of course you don't get to choose which 3 enemies it is so you have to go chasing whichever ones the power picks, like a dog. The other was so forgettable, that when Helminth Released nobody noticed a better version of it was one of the Helminths Innate powers.

And I'll try yelling "conceptually interesting" into my controller next time I'm using Caliban, maybe that weird point to bring up will make a difference. In the meantime he's easily now the new (old) Hydroid, and Reworks should be chosen from the bottom up.

[Dax-Kriegor]

3 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

I'm aware, like I said, it's not like he's worse or completely useless, he's just not good either.  The CC isn't great comparatively with other frames and the finishers break up the flow of gameplay too much to be worth anything.  Inaros' main positive has always been his insane survivability, but as already point out, even that's completely overshadowed by other frames that also do infinitely better in both CC and damage departments.

But Hydroid is also a prime example of a rework done right.  Hydroid went from one of the worst frames in the game who really only served as a mediocre lootboost gimmick or a single extremely slow paced synergy between puddle and barrage's augment to one of the strongest non-room-nuke frames with much more effective abilities, much better synergy between the rest of his kit, and an insanely good passive.  So while the loss of puddle is tragic and it would've been cool to see it kept alive somehow, nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff at least.
 

I don't know what game you've been playing or how new you are but people have been talking about Inaros' need for a rework for years, LONG before overguard was ever a thing.  Inaros was invalidated well before then and really only exists for players who didn't have the mechanical skill/reactions to sustain the multiple other forms of immortality available to them.  His kit is just conceptually very boring and ineffective.  He was designed in a time where the maximum enemy density you'd be fighting at one time was typically about 6 and just hasn't evolved to keep up with the pace of the game at all and even in his prime he was really more of a glorified healthbar than a frame that actually had any effective abilities.

As for Trinity, her abilities are actually pretty good, they just suffer from the fact that there's virtually no content in the game where a medic or energy battery is really necessary because of the nature of the previously mentioned immortality methods for every frame in addition to the ever-growing focus towards mass extinction events being a baseline expectation for frames.  Caliban is at least conceptually interesting (with the exception of his 1 which is for some reason just a copy of Revenant's 4) but just really weak with no form of proper scaling (which Inaros also suffers from btw) so I'd still say he needs less drastic changes than Inaros to be in a decent spot.

Hydroid was great at fine tuned control, he just was unpopular because he wasn't a DPS, and even in missions where hydroid shined, generally the way that people play(kill everything even if that's not beneficial or is actively detrimental to the mission) nullified any utility he had, making hydroid a really great solo frame but even less used than inaros.. and that's why hydroid got reworked. He wasn't truly bad, he just got a class change so that people would play him more.

I could argue that hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff, given that he is significantly worse at control now than he was, which was his primary role before, and his powers aren't any more synergistic than they were, as well as how his new 4 disables powers that target enemies so for instance ash can't use his ult if hydroid is using his, because hydroids new 4 completely negates bladestorm making him worse in cooperative play at the same time as losing much of his control as a tradeoff for being stronger and stripping enemy defenses, while still being significantly worse in solo play at the missions ye previously excelled at. But when you said, "nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff" I'm guessing you meant that you're not interested in any such argument so I'll leave it alone. Nobody really wants to hear it anyway I know. But as unpopular as he was, I played hydroid a lot, until his newest rework. Now I don't use him hardly at all.

Also, finishers are capable of dealing massive damage when used well, and I wouldn't call them gimmicky, but inaros doesn't do finishers as well as other frames that have powers based around them..

As for inaros only existing for players that don't have the mechanical skill etc.. I've seen some inaros players fare better in sp than Revenants and Octavias.. not saying that makes inaros better than either of them, and he's not, but that's kind of my point.. those players were far more skilled than meta frame users. Because inaros mains HAVE to be more skilled, or at high levels they'll die.

On the other hand, conceptually interesting though he is, I've never seen a Caliban in sp..

I do agree that inaros' kit is boring and not very helpful, though. And frames that are capable of "extinction level events" are much more popular, though I'm not entirely certain whether that's a good thing. I'd agree that inaros needs a good rework to his kit. I don't play inaros though, so I haven't really got good suggestions for how that should be handled..

Just my thoughts on the matter

Edited February 24 by Dax-Kriegor

[SweetAnubis]

14 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

especially to know that the fact he got any attention at all means he's effectively shoved to the back of the line again for any potential future changes as well.

pls remember zephyr went through a similar sitch and her rework was considered bad enough they had to give her a second one mere months later.

 

that said as long as the numbers stack up his new rework has a ton of potential. a strong armor strip ability, added mobility, increased survivability and good tweaks to his two best skills as well.

[SweetAnubis]

8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

As for inaros only existing for players that don't have the mechanical skill etc.. I've seen some inaros players fare better in sp than Revenants and Octavias.. not saying that makes inaros better than either of them, and he's not, but that's kind of my point.. those players were far more skilled than meta frame users. Because inaros mains HAVE to be more skilled, or at high levels they'll die.

wait inaros can die? on a more serious note inaros is actually good for me because i have nerve damage that prevents alot of those reaction based builds, that being said he still takes his own skill in knowing how to build him and how to use his build. I cant tell you how many times ive seen people bash me for using inaros saying he's useless and then watching their supposed replacement tank frames get butchered in SP much like you said while i just sit there in a mob of enemies not even going below half health, and then they tell me i lose out on dps because inaros skills arent great, but frankly i always got better dps from melee no matter what frame im playing.

Edited February 24 by SweetAnubis

[Dax-Kriegor]

15 minutes ago, SweetAnubis said:

wait inaros can die? on a more serious note inaros is actually good for me because i have nerve damage that prevents alot of those reaction based builds, that being said he still takes his own skill in knowing how to build him and how to use his build. I cant tell you how many times ive seen people bash me for using inaros saying he's useless and then watching their supposed replacement tank frames get butchered in SP much like you said while i just sit there in a mob of enemies not even going below half health, and then they tell me i lose out on dps because inaros skills arent great, but frankly i always got better dps from melee no matter what frame im playing.

It's a popular mentality for people to trash the frames they don't play as.. since everyone likes to pretend pvp is toxic, they all just pvp with their words instead. 

Maybe you'll enjoy knowing that my first successful run against the hidden challenge boss, the only other player that joined was an inaros. We trounced the fragmented one, so it's hard to argue that inaros isn't usable in endgame, but it is true that he's less popular than most frames

[SweetAnubis]

1 minute ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

It's a popular mentality for people to trash the frames they don't play as.. since everyone likes to pretend pvp is toxic, they all just pvp with their words instead. 

Maybe you'll enjoy knowing that my first successful run against the hidden challenge boss, the only other player that joined was an inaros. We trounced the fragmented one, so it's hard to argue that inaros isn't usable in endgame, but it is true that he's less popular than most frames

i think alot of it is because people want flashy and fancy. its like how those older ford trucks may have been small and plain looking but are still running strong while these shiny fancy flashy oversized ones seem to die every other week. also people forget that the game is more than just the frame.... yo also have weapons, an operator, arcanes, companion etc. people forget about overall synergy far to often and focus only on the fancy flashy skills a frame has.

[Dax-Kriegor]

1 minute ago, SweetAnubis said:

i think alot of it is because people want flashy and fancy. its like how those older ford trucks may have been small and plain looking but are still running strong while these shiny fancy flashy oversized ones seem to die every other week. also people forget that the game is more than just the frame.... yo also have weapons, an operator, arcanes, companion etc. people forget about overall synergy far to often and focus only on the fancy flashy skills a frame has.

Very true, and another aspect of synergy is being able to play cooperatively as a team, and many Warframe players are bad enough at that their only recourse is to mod their frames to be God tier so that the rest of the sqd doesn't matter in their eyes. But building a full load out synergistically takes effort and working together isn't flashy or fancy. Both are very effective though

[Demigirlboss]

I think this post is kind of asking for Inaros to be reworked into something that people who aren't already playing Inaros would want to play, which I think misses the point of a rework. A rework is generally one of two things. Either it takes a Frame that sees next to no use due to an extremely subpar kit, and elevates them to something more of the playerbase wants to bother with (a la Hydroid), or it takes a Frame that already has some amount of a userbase, and refreshes it for more modern content or to make it a bit more well-rounded while still retaining the core of why that Frame had a userbase in the first place, such as Vauban or Titania.

This Inaros rework is absolutely the latter. The aim here wasn't to make Inaros insanely good so everyone would want to play him (though Nyx desperately needs such a thing), it was to update him to be more useful and to enable greater build variety by freeing up mod slots previously spent on just catching up to newer content. But it still fundamentally retains the core of what makes people wanna play Inaros, which is "I like being hilariously tanky and utterly unkillable." This rework still retains that, while also making him no longer need an augment for functionality that is pretty fundamental to a tank frame.

[SweetAnubis]

16 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

Very true, and another aspect of synergy is being able to play cooperatively as a team, and many Warframe players are bad enough at that their only recourse is to mod their frames to be God tier so that the rest of the sqd doesn't matter in their eyes. But building a full load out synergistically takes effort and working together isn't flashy or fancy. Both are very effective though

i mean tbh building a tank frame in the style of game that warframe is does kinda one a selfish player who doesnt need a squad.....

[quxier]

13 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

15 hours ago, quxier said:

To be honest I think it's pretty decent concept, at least 2-4 + passive. DE/Pablo changed what was horrible (tornado and static suck) and put some flavors to abilities. It hasn't removed "interesting" parts like with the case of Hydroid (well, unless you find slowly sucking enemies with current 2nd good/interesting).

I feel like we will get only small tweak.

I'm aware, like I said, it's not like he's worse or completely useless, he's just not good either.  The CC isn't great comparatively with other frames and the finishers break up the flow of gameplay too much to be worth anything.  Inaros' main positive has always been his insane survivability, but as already point out, even that's completely overshadowed by other frames that also do infinitely better in both CC and damage departments.

His survivality sounds interesting. I have to play it before saying too much but it's not like "1 tap (almost) immortality like Revenant" nor +1 live every ~minute (Voruna). And it's not ability made into passive (Dagath).

13 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

But Hydroid is also a prime example of a rework done right.  Hydroid went from one of the worst frames in the game who really only served as a mediocre lootboost gimmick or a single extremely slow paced synergy between puddle and barrage's augment to one of the strongest non-room-nuke frames with much more effective abilities, much better synergy between the rest of his kit, and an insanely good passive.  So while the loss of puddle is tragic and it would've been cool to see it kept alive somehow, nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff at least.

It depends what you like. "PUddle gimmick" were something not great BUT INTERESTING. Now we have "get armor" (afair). I don't think it's fair tradeof. Is it stronger? Sure. Is it better? Not for me.

2 hours ago, SweetAnubis said:

10 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

As for inaros only existing for players that don't have the mechanical skill etc.. I've seen some inaros players fare better in sp than Revenants and Octavias.. not saying that makes inaros better than either of them, and he's not, but that's kind of my point.. those players were far more skilled than meta frame users. Because inaros mains HAVE to be more skilled, or at high levels they'll die.

wait inaros can die? on a more serious note inaros is actually good for me because i have nerve damage that prevents alot of those reaction based builds, that being said he still takes his own skill in knowing how to build him and how to use his build. I cant tell you how many times ive seen people bash me for using inaros saying he's useless and then watching their supposed replacement tank frames get butchered in SP much like you said while i just sit there in a mob of enemies not even going below half health, and then they tell me i lose out on dps because inaros skills arent great, but frankly i always got better dps from melee no matter what frame im playing.

I think I've died in Archon hunt. People were telling about this issue. Not sure about current situation.

[Waeleto]

14 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Inaros hasn't needed a "look into for so long". Folks only started consistently complaining about him when Overguard came in. He barely needed a change and so barely got one.

In the meantime frames like Trinity have 4 outdated powers, and Caliban released with either bad or already outdated powers making up his 4, and no news at all about them being looked at among others. 

couldn't agree more, inaros never REALLY needed a rework

[CrownOfShadows]

I'm mostly reserving judgement until I can actually play it, but it seems completely fine as far as power and playstyle goes.

As far as survivability goes - I get the feeling he's still going to die a lot at high levels because there's no overgaurd in his kit - he has zero gates. That said the biggest thing going for him with survival i think is actually going to be the new eclipse (haha!)

As far as theme goes, I halfway agree - like I had my own big dreams for how an awesome mummy frame should be - but DE basically didn't want to make a whole new frame and so they just tweaked things, and I think that's perfectly fair. It's not the dream, but it's a practical and fast update that is going to make him way more playable.

[Waeleto]

29 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I'm mostly reserving judgement until I can actually play it, but it seems completely fine as far as power and playstyle goes.

As far as survivability goes - I get the feeling he's still going to die a lot at high levels because there's no overgaurd in his kit - he has zero gates. That said the biggest thing going for him with survival i think is actually going to be the new eclipse (haha!)

As far as theme goes, I halfway agree - like I had my own big dreams for how an awesome mummy frame should be - but DE basically didn't want to make a whole new frame and so they just tweaked things, and I think that's perfectly fair. It's not the dream, but it's a practical and fast update that is going to make him way more playable.

Level cap is irrelevant when balancing and no warframe should be judged by the ability to do level cap, Inaros already can survive for a couple of hours into the sp and will be able to do it better

Inaros mains myself included never wanted him to get overguard or shields because that defeats his whole purpose, he's to health what hildryn is to shields and he does it greatly 

[CrownOfShadows]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

couldn't agree more, inaros never REALLY needed a rework

ALL of his abilities sucked. He definitely needed attention. Don't even try to defend any of them, they all sucked and you know it. Could you use them? Sure. They still sucked. Or if you feel you have to die on that meaningless hill we can go through them and I can explain how they all sucked individually and then you can deny it all again anyway 🙄

2 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Level cap is irrelevant when balancing and no warframe should be judged by the ability to do level cap, Inaros already can survive for a couple of hours into the sp and will be able to do it better

Inaros mains myself included never wanted him to get overguard or shields because that defeats his whole purpose, he's to health what hildryn is to shields and he does it greatly 

IDK what you're trying to communicate here. Are you trying to say that Inaros had no problems surviving? If so I'd have to press X to doubt on that and ask about your playstyle, specifically if you are relying on rolling gaurd, gloom, quiver, etc. Because he definitely struggles in the upper SP and the other high level content DE is making these days. I never said anything about level cap, that's an entirely different metric built primarily on cheese.

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

IDK what you're trying to communicate here. Are you trying to say that Inaros had no problems surviving? If so I'd have to press X to doubt on that and ask about your playstyle, specifically if you are relying on rolling gaurd, gloom, quiver, etc. Because he definitely struggles in the upper SP and the other high level content DE is making these days. I never said anything about level cap, that's an entirely different metric built primarily on cheese.

Yes i'm saying he never had problems surviving in any content that matters, i have done up to level 3000 in sp with him before 

I'll say the only time i died with him or got one shot is one i went into the fragmented one blindly 

[Ceadeus]

20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Might want to pump the brakes on your condescending replies or your thread won't last long.

Nothing about what I said was condescending.

20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

As for the matter being discussed, I said consistently for a reason. An inaros rework thread popping up once every few months isn't consistent, nor does it somehow make it needed. And before Overguard was added that's what we had, one popping up every few months, because Inaros' 8k - 9k health pool, which turned into 10k with his prime, did the job.

Hydroid was the same way but still got his.  It also really only emphasizes my point that people have wanted this for so long that people have already beaten that dead horse enough to not be in the limelight.  Naturally, the forums are going to be primarily filled with comments about modern issues, not a near-decade-old frame.  And yes, his healthpool USED to prop him up, but even then people were still unhappy with the lackluster state of his kit, and as I pointed out, that healthpool has become entirely irrelevant given the state of survival tools.  Hence, seeing him get such a minimal rework is sad.

20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

And no, trinity doesn't have great powers. 2 of her powers place an enemy floating or stunned in one spot in order to give out health or energy. In a game which has been heading in a "run & gun" direction for the last few years. (And yes, this should probably be that moment when you regret bringing up if someone has been playing the game, yet you yourself can't see the problem with 2 powers holding singular enemies in one spot while everyone runs past them, contributing nothing)

I literally addressed the fact that they were just out of place in the game.  But, no, despite your personal grievances, those abilities are still really good.  Being able to refill energy and health completely on demand is very strong.  They're just not needed because of the focus on killing things in the blink of an eye anyway.  Inaros' abilities on the other hand are both unfitting for the game AND weak.  Inaros doesn't fill an untapped niche like Trinity, he just has a weak and outdated kit, period.

20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

The other 2 powers are nearly useless. One is supposed to either pass off damage to enemies or armour strip them, but of course you don't get to choose which 3 enemies it is so you have to go chasing whichever ones the power picks, like a dog. The other was so forgettable, that when Helminth Released nobody noticed a better version of it was one of the Helminths Innate powers.

Link was literally a major staple in extremely broken builds for a while there before it got nerfed.  Blessing is also a full heal plus temporary immortality and status immunity, so now you're contradicting yourself by claiming that Inaros' survivability is enough to prop him up alone but that when Trinity provides the best survivability in the game at the press of a button to her whole team it's somehow "nearly useless".

20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

And I'll try yelling "conceptually interesting" into my controller next time I'm using Caliban, maybe that weird point to bring up will make a difference. In the meantime he's easily now the new (old) Hydroid, and Reworks should be chosen from the bottom up.

You whine about me being condescending but then think this isn't?  Well regardless of your weird double standards when having your points countered, I disagree, with the exception of game-breaking issues and the "feedback window" after an update, reworks for content should be prioritized first by how long content has been in need of an update, then by the severity of the problem.  For Inaros, that's basically since he dropped almost a decade ago vs Caliban just closing out 2 years.  Hydroid also follows that precedent where Hydroid had niche uses, just like you're claiming Inaros does, but he had also been suffering for so long that he deserved the attention.

 

17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

Hydroid was great at fine tuned control, he just was unpopular because he wasn't a DPS, and even in missions where hydroid shined, generally the way that people play(kill everything even if that's not beneficial or is actively detrimental to the mission) nullified any utility he had, making hydroid a really great solo frame but even less used than inaros.. and that's why hydroid got reworked. He wasn't truly bad, he just got a class change so that people would play him more.

Well no, because even Hydroid's control wasn't all that good.  Tempest Barrage had unreliable targeting and just knocked stuff down, not terrible but not that good either, Tidal surge threw things all over the place, which was inconvenient, Tentacle Swarm also thrashed their targets around making them hard to deal with vs a normal CC, and Puddle while funny, literally brought the game to a crawl.  Hydroid's main niche function was as a lootbooster, but he was also overshadowed in that regard too.  THAT'S why he got a rework.  He became a DPS because that's just the way of the game anymore.  Raw CC just isn't valuable in the fast-paced, kills-per-minute-based meta.  Even the best "CC frames" also have some form of damage in their kit anymore.

17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

I could argue that hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff, given that he is significantly worse at control now than he was, which was his primary role before, and his powers aren't any more synergistic than they were, as well as how his new 4 disables powers that target enemies so for instance ash can't use his ult if hydroid is using his, because hydroids new 4 completely negates bladestorm making him worse in cooperative play at the same time as losing much of his control as a tradeoff for being stronger and stripping enemy defenses, while still being significantly worse in solo play at the missions ye previously excelled at. But when you said, "nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff" I'm guessing you meant that you're not interested in any such argument so I'll leave it alone. Nobody really wants to hear it anyway I know. But as unpopular as he was, I played hydroid a lot, until his newest rework. Now I don't use him hardly at all.

I'll gladly discuss it if you think it's worth discussing I'm just not sure I agree.  Tempest Barrage has better targeting and automatically casts at its previous max strength without any hold to charge, making it more reliable for control in addition to having the previous augment included and the base ability and the augment converted into a better one also making it better for damage, so all net positives there for both control and damage.  Tidal Surge now drops enemies at your feet instead of flinging them away, making that better for control.  The loss of puddle could be argued as a loss of control, but again it was more of a cheeky gimmick than a truly effective CC tool or ability.  Tentacle Swarm also got better targeting, no longer thrashes enemies around, and now recaptures enemies who enter the area after cast so it's also better for control there.  I don't know of any removed interactions with other abilities from its previous iteration so if you've noticed any I think that might be a bug rather than an intended change.  And the only other "control" Hydroid had was his old passive of spawning a single tentacle, which I think we can both agree wasn't really doing much for him anyway.

17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

Also, finishers are capable of dealing massive damage when used well, and I wouldn't call them gimmicky, but inaros doesn't do finishers as well as other frames that have powers based around them..

They are, but so are any number of other sources that don't require you to be locked in place for a long animation.  If they were a guaranteed kill then maybe, but if you start trying to do finishers in high-level content you're just gonna wind up tickling the enemy and getting shot to Hell.  It's interesting to have extra effects on finishers, but just not viable to have them be the focus of a playstyle unless they're going to do something utterly ridiculous.

17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

As for inaros only existing for players that don't have the mechanical skill etc.. I've seen some inaros players fare better in sp than Revenants and Octavias.. not saying that makes inaros better than either of them, and he's not, but that's kind of my point.. those players were far more skilled than meta frame users. Because inaros mains HAVE to be more skilled, or at high levels they'll die.

Yes, I wasn't trying to say Inaros players are bad or anything, I'm just saying that his only real positive for the last however long has been the fact that he has a big healthbar, which isn't really relevant for skilled players because of the multitude of options to turn any frame into an immortal tank, so Inaros is an easier method of survival for players who don't have the means or skills to pull off those methods was what I was trying to say.

17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

On the other hand, conceptually interesting though he is, I've never seen a Caliban in sp..

Sadly raw damage is still the king of the game and in that regard, Caliban truly sucks.  But that's why I think a rework for Caliban wouldn't need to be very intense.  Preferably get a new 1 so he's not just ripping off Revenant, and then figure out a good scaling method for his damage output, problem solved.  Comparatively, I don't think there's any simple scaling buff you can give to most of Inaros' current or proposed rework kit to make it interesting.

17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

I do agree that inaros' kit is boring and not very helpful, though. And frames that are capable of "extinction level events" are much more popular, though I'm not entirely certain whether that's a good thing. I'd agree that inaros needs a good rework to his kit. I don't play inaros though, so I haven't really got good suggestions for how that should be handled..

Just my thoughts on the matter

Fair assessments.  I used to play Inaros quite extensively and I believe I've already posted a proposed Inaros rework once, but they said they don't want to go too deep with him, so, for now, I'm just hoping for something that helps alleviate the "Just a glorified healthbar" issue and I don't think this rework does that.  And I'm in somewhat the same boat about the direction of the meta.  I do wish there was more room for creative solutions and subsequent frame designs, but sadly when a game becomes centered around grinding through waves of fodder, the best CC, the best survivability tool, the best everything is always going to be a dead enemy.  To fix that would require a massive top-to-bottom restructuring of the core gameplay mechanics that's just too risky of a move to even take this late in Warframe's life.  But hopefully, Soulframe can fit that more calculated and deliberate niche of playstyle.

10 hours ago, SweetAnubis said:

pls remember zephyr went through a similar sitch and her rework was considered bad enough they had to give her a second one mere months later.

that said as long as the numbers stack up his new rework has a ton of potential. a strong armor strip ability, added mobility, increased survivability and good tweaks to his two best skills as well.

I sure hope that's the case because this just does not seem like "it" to me.

I don't know that I would call his 4 a "good armor strip ability" as all it really did was change the damage type to forced corrosive, but it still doesn't tick very fast, so in more cases than not, you're likely going to be able to kill an enemy long before you'd ever tick off any significant amount of armor from them with the corrosive procs alone, unlike Hydroid who got enhanced corrosive procs and tons of other corrosive damage throughout his kit.  The mobility is nice, but not really going to be making any dramatic changes to his effectiveness, and the survivability was the one thing he already had more than enough of, so sort of moot there.

9 hours ago, Demigirlboss said:

I think this post is kind of asking for Inaros to be reworked into something that people who aren't already playing Inaros would want to play, which I think misses the point of a rework. A rework is generally one of two things. Either it takes a Frame that sees next to no use due to an extremely subpar kit, and elevates them to something more of the playerbase wants to bother with (a la Hydroid), or it takes a Frame that already has some amount of a userbase, and refreshes it for more modern content or to make it a bit more well-rounded while still retaining the core of why that Frame had a userbase in the first place, such as Vauban or Titania.

This Inaros rework is absolutely the latter. The aim here wasn't to make Inaros insanely good so everyone would want to play him (though Nyx desperately needs such a thing), it was to update him to be more useful and to enable greater build variety by freeing up mod slots previously spent on just catching up to newer content. But it still fundamentally retains the core of what makes people wanna play Inaros, which is "I like being hilariously tanky and utterly unkillable." This rework still retains that, while also making him no longer need an augment for functionality that is pretty fundamental to a tank frame.

I understand that, I used to play Inaros a lot.  However, as you said, the main (and arguably only real) draw of Inaros right now is his tankiness.  But that's already almost entirely contained in his healthbar alone, making his actual kit a tiny portion of his identity.  Inaros' kit is already virtually pointless as it only serves to feed the healthbar, but again, any frame in the game can be just as tanky as Inaros, so for his one and only significant trait to be "being tanky" is just not viable even from a pure frame-balance standpoint.  Right now, Inaros barely dips his toes into some other areas, both live and in the proposed rework, and I think it would be much better to explore those a little deeper.  For example the sand clones.  Those were always an interesting concept, but they were so ridiculously clunky to get to with how slowly devour worked, you could absolutely find ways to get more of those on the field and you could also have them feed back into the tanky elements of Inaros by having him sap their health to heal his own.  There are plenty of ways to feed into Inaros' identity as a tank, but also give him some more interesting and engaging abilities than 2 variants of pocket sand, a glorified rolling guard, and a mediocre corrosive procer.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

His survivality sounds interesting. I have to play it before saying too much but it's not like "1 tap (almost) immortality like Revenant" nor +1 live every ~minute (Voruna). And it's not ability made into passive (Dagath).

Well arguably his survivability is more interesting (if less powerful) now on live than it will be under his rework if that's your perspective because right now you improve your survivability with devour which makes you immortal while doing it and technically can kill anything in the game it can be used on if you have the patience while also (arguably his most interesting and criminally under-explored aspect) spawning a sand clone, or a synergy between sandstorm and pocket sand that lets you sap health with it, and a give-and-take with your 4 of trading your extra armor for some damage.  Whereas in the rework you lose devour entirely, sandstorm DOES become a "press button for (literal) immortality" and presumably no longer needs to synergize with pocket sand as a result, and there's no longer a conscious tradeoff with your armor, just a passive extra protection.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

It depends what you like. "PUddle gimmick" were something not great BUT INTERESTING. Now we have "get armor" (afair). I don't think it's fair tradeof. Is it stronger? Sure. Is it better? Not for me.

Armor and damage based on corrosive procs in area, but yeah.  I would agree puddle is more interesting, but it also just didn't fit with the pace and design of the game anymore.  I would've liked to see puddle stay in some form, but I'll also definitely take Hydroid actually being an effective and fun frame to play over it as well.

7 hours ago, Waeleto said:

couldn't agree more, inaros never REALLY needed a rework

Well I'd have to disagree and his low playrates would suggest the same.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

As far as theme goes, I halfway agree - like I had my own big dreams for how an awesome mummy frame should be - but DE basically didn't want to make a whole new frame and so they just tweaked things, and I think that's perfectly fair. It's not the dream, but it's a practical and fast update that is going to make him way more playable.

It's an improvement, but like I said, I'm worried this means he's just never going to get the real attention he deserves.  Even with all the buffs his kit is still not going to be very effective compared to others at any given role, and his survivability is also all but nullified.  He really does deserve better.

5 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Level cap is irrelevant when balancing and no warframe should be judged by the ability to do level cap, Inaros already can survive for a couple of hours into the sp and will be able to do it better

Inaros mains myself included never wanted him to get overguard or shields because that defeats his whole purpose, he's to health what hildryn is to shields and he does it greatly 

So can absolutely every frame in the game.  The problem is that every other frame can do that AND be effective for other purposes where Inaros is JUST a tank and doesn't actually provide much of anything else that wouldn't be better served by plenty of other frames.  Hildryn literally has one of the best defense strip abilities in the game and can get some pretty obscene damage out of her 1 when modded right, so her and Inaros are hardly comparable.

Edited February 25 by Ceadeus

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, Ceadeus said:

Nothing about what I said was condescending.

Hydroid was the same way but still got his.

You certainly were condescending, and you don't get to decide you weren't. Your decision in the matter revolves around whether you're capable of apologising for it, and we got our answer.

And no, Hydroid wasn't the same way. Pretty much weekly threads, and has famously been bottom of the barrel, known by both players and devs, for years now. Comparing apples to tractors may work for you in other areas of your life, but its not going to cut it here. Once again, another instance of having to factcheck the person claiming others don't even play the game.

At this stage given how both your defense of why Inaros needed a rework before any of the other worse Warframes, and the explanation of why Inaros' rework needs more both falling flat, the only thing really interesting left in this thread is how you haven't noticed that you've had to post a huge reply to defend your views, but still haven't considered that to be a glaring sign you might just be wrong.

[Ceadeus]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

You certainly were condescending, and you don't get to decide you weren't. Your decision in the matter revolves around whether you're capable of apologising for it, and we got our answer.

And no, Hydroid wasn't the same way. Pretty much weekly threads, and has famously been bottom of the barrel, known by both players and devs, for years now. Comparing apples to tractors may work for you in other areas of your life, but its not going to cut it here. Once again, another instance of having to factcheck the person claiming others don't even play the game.

At this stage given how both your defense of why Inaros needed a rework before any of the other worse Warframes, and the explanation of why Inaros' rework needs more both falling flat, the only thing really interesting left in this thread is how you haven't noticed that you've had to post a huge reply to defend your views, but still haven't considered that to be a glaring sign you might just be wrong.

All I'm hearing is that you're going to ignore the facts to make up whatever narrative fits your preference.  The fact you think my reply only pertained to you and didn't bother to see that I was simply engaging anyone who bothered to give their thoughts tells me you WILDLY overvalue your own wrong opinions and aren't worth discussing with any further.  Don't reply anymore.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

6 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

All I'm hearing is that you're going to ignore the facts to make up whatever narrative fits your preference.

The ironic thing is you don't even realise this one short sentence literally contradicts itself, whilst also being a description of your own views. That's astounding. "All I'm hearing" followed by the rest, truly, truly astounding.

But you're correct, you're too afraid of being wrong to have a mature conversation with. Luckily it would be inconsequential anyway, given how you won't be getting what you want. Good luck.

[trst]

Inaros was never going to get a major rework due to him having remained a very popular frame despite his state. That said though while there's no reason to judge the actual performance of the rework until we get some hands on experience with it I don't see how it's lackluster. Especially if his "issue" is pointless abilities and potential survivability issues vs super high levels.

 

His passive can finally be usable which alone can solve most of his possible survivability concerns.

Desiccation was already a good ability and is only getting better with more enemies able to be hit with finishers. As there's plenty of finisher synergies he can make use of and it's always an option for one-shotting tankier enemies if your weapons are falling short.

The new Sandstorm functions as a better "oh sh*t" ability now being faster and healing him. Plus being a grouping ability now means it has use in all situations.

His new 3 is still the same old 4th ability but now innately gives status immunity plus the new augment gives you a second layer to his passive.

And the new Scarab Swarm now works as a way to spread Corrosive procs and the sand Kavats also help survivability with diverting enemy fire.

 

All in all it sounds like all his concerns have been addressed. Ways to survive stupidly high level enemies and his abilities sound like they're actually worth using all while retaining why players play Inaros in the first place. All that remains is to see just how it performs in action which can only be an improvement since he's still same old Inaros but with all his existing mechanics buffed.

[Ceadeus]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

The ironic thing is you don't even realise this one short sentence literally contradicts itself, whilst also being a description of your own views. That's astounding. "All I'm hearing" followed by the rest, truly, truly astounding.

But you're correct, you're too afraid of being wrong to have a mature conversation with. Luckily it would be inconsequential anyway, given how you won't be getting what you want. Good luck.

No you just refuse every bit of evidence to lie through your teeth about what you blindly believe is right.  Do me a favor, little science experiment, go search "Inaros" on the forums and see how many results you get, then do "Hydroid" and see if that lines up with your theory that Inaros is never talked about and that nobody ever shut up about Hydroid.  Since I know facts aren't your strong suit I'll do the math for you, 30% more results for Hydroid.  Does a 30% difference for a frame that's had 2 separate reworks sound like the utterly incomparable difference you were trying to paint it as?  Sure doesn't to me.  But again, I know facts aren't your strong suit so I'll help you out again, no, Inaros was in just as bad of a state as Hydroid and being talked about for just as long.  Everything you've said from the very first word has been false.  You're not here to have a discussion like I have with everyone else, you're here to make stuff up and then cry about it when you get proven wrong and try to deflect with false claims that people were "condescending" to you or "not willing to discuss" when that ONLY describes you here.  Get off my post.