Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Numerounius]

Mirage isn't all about eclipse though. She isn't going anywhere.

[Xaiken-EN-]

So in exchange of making Mirage more user friendly... they decided to absolutely dumpster her weapon damage playstyle? Why? Screw it, go back! I love my weapons platform Mirage even if light levels was annoying af. I do not understand why they would make this change. DO THEY EVEN REMEMBER CHROMA?! How many people subsume Vex Armor? How many people play Chroma? So the only valid playstyle for Mirage is spam Sleight of Hand? Or Prism? Ah yes I enjoy the playstyles where I stand on one f-ing spot all game! Do we have usage data on how often those playstyles get played? Oh we can't have Roar or Nourish power creep. So you ONLY want those to be subsumed? Oh yeah that sounds sooo balanced! All I know is the reason and playstyle I have loved playing Mirage since her day 1 is dead. I'll eat my words if they backtrack on this nerf, but we should all know their track record by now. I was hopeful things would get better.

[Redrigoth]

6 hours ago, DidacoJack said:

Here we go again with the nerf knee jerk.

Mirage won't die because of this, you're talking about the frame with freakin' built in multishot at a single button tap, and Eclipse basically ceased to work with the new lighting system changing that to something that actually works can't be the end of the frame.

Good job completely missing the argument. Only knee-jerk response here is yours.
Also each clones only does 25% of the full damage and for guns, only 2 clones attack.
You don't know what you're even talking about.

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[ShogunGunshow]

Should be 100% multiplicative, helminth 75%. 

Additive damage sucks. It gets worse every year as we get more sources of it from inevitable power creep. Go ask Chroma how he's doing with 1000% additive damage on vex armor, how he went from THE damage dealer to where he is now. 

Like we are genuinely at a point where, in a year or two, Mirage will be subsuming over Eclipse for Roar. That's how bad this is. 

[Hypertion]

39 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

Mirage isn't all about eclipse though. She isn't going anywhere.

ahh yes.. at least mirage has a functional build outside her pure weapon builds... unlike chroma she can build for ability nuking via her 4 and Ledger augment...

 

but she is my first prime frame, being the prime that was on prime access when i started.. she has always been a good frame and it sucks that suddenly she is getting a nerf like chroma when i dont really agree with the same nerf on him. 400+ damage is great even if its just mod level damage.. but having it a 4x multiplier is still better... chroma was nerfed because he had a major bug where damage was double dipped, mirage does not have this issue... so i do not understand why such a extreme change..

 

however i will reconize that Mirages damage boost vastly outpaces other similar boosts... Rhino having up to 160% or so is the closest and his kit is overall not as impressive and Roar itself doesnt also have a Damage reduction option to it. so i dont know if i cannot say its too good... learning its become the goto bonus for Eidolon subsume kinda shocked me, as the last time i tried Mirage in hunts she could not produce extra damage as it was dark bonus the entire time.

[Redrigoth]

43 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

Mirage isn't all about eclipse though. She isn't going anywhere.

Oooh wow! She has a discoball build and a trap map nuke build that works against low level enemies! Totally worth having her unique glass cannon identity gutted by putting her damage buff into an over-saturated multiplier category.

[Th3bl4cksm1th]

so i heard that eclipse is going to get a rework but its going to be nerfed by making it additive instead of multiplicative.

maybe instead of that, how about reducing the str scaling of the damage instead?

Edited February 24 by Th3bl4cksm1th

[Scobragon]

Wait, wasn't this whole thing about them breaking the skill with changes to lighting system?
Why are they changing the core functionality of the skill?

[Redrigoth]

10 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Should be 100% multiplicative, helminth 75%. 

Additive damage sucks. It gets worse every year as we get more sources of it from inevitable power creep. Go ask Chroma how he's doing with 1000% additive damage on vex armor, how he went from THE damage dealer to where he is now. 

Like we are genuinely at a point where, in a year or two, Mirage will be subsuming over Eclipse for Roar. That's how bad this is. 

Yeah 100% multiplicative is still much better than additive to serration.
Atleast Chroma gets huge armor and hp(from his 2) alongside his damage buff. Mirage will have to choose between being tanky and being a "meh" dps like any other frame. Horrible change.

 

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[Dax-Kriegor]

6 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

NOTE: This is about Eclipse only. So this means it's about every frame+Eclipse, not just Mirage.

For those that don't know, on the Devstream Pablo has said that Eclipse will now be base damage like Serration/Vex Armor. This is honestly horrible, as Warframe is saturated with base damage sources in 2024 (360-480% arcanes, Gundition Overload, Condition Overload, Hornet Strike, Killing Blow, Void Strike, etc...). Eclipse and any other buff like it is strong because it's a unique multiplier that isn't barraged by diminishing returns. It needs to stay that way even if it's reduced a bit.

Pablo also said the helminth version will be capped at 350% because "that's what it has at current", which isn't correct. It has diminished effectiveness, but no cap as you can easily get above 350% even with the lower starting value we currently have.

--------------------------

Here's the math with the normal ability.

• Current Eclipse - (1+x)*(1+2)
• New Eclipse - (1+x+3.5)

With just 75% base damage (Horrent Strike alone is 220%), current and new Eclipse will do the same damage in max light. With current Eclipse doing significantly more damage the more base damage you have.... For an example, my Kuva Nukor with no outside buffs has 1,080% base damage alone.

Here's a graph to show the difference as you increase base damage.

Not to mention, Eclipse is one of the few competitors Nourish has (which they're also nerfing because it's used "too much"). So all that just to make Nourish even more of a uncontended choice? (Seriously, Eclipse's unreliability is a significant reason why I switched many of my builds to a helminth like Nourish. And recently I was excited to finally drop an allrounder like Nourish for a more DPS oriented option.... So much for that.)

yes, this will make eclipse+any frame a bit weaker. this is a natural matter of course, as it was stated in the beginning that making eclipse a toggle ability may need the effectiveness to be reduced somewhat. however, if you read the exlipse feedback megathread, youll see that the community overwhelmingly requested this change. not only were people okay with removing the lighting/environmental interaction that made eclipse unique and fun(i understand that fixing it to work with the new lighting system would have required more work, but i still believe as i said before. that this would have been worth the wait) but basically everyone also agreed that some nerfs were totally acceptable as a trade off to make the power a toggle and therefore 100% reliable without any need for situational awareness. the point youre making here is that the changes occurring will result in the power being less commonly used, but this was a completely predictable result when it was suggested a couple weeks ago, and the community has spoken. the decision isnt what you wanted, nor i. but its what the majority of players agreed upon. the eclipse megathread is locked. bringing the subject back up now wont change anything. theres no real reason for this thread to exist

[Redrigoth]

19 minutes ago, Hypertion said:

ahh yes.. at least mirage has a functional build outside her pure weapon builds... unlike chroma she can build for ability nuking via her 4 and Ledger augment...

 

but she is my first prime frame, being the prime that was on prime access when i started.. she has always been a good frame and it sucks that suddenly she is getting a nerf like chroma when i dont really agree with the same nerf on him. 400+ damage is great even if its just mod level damage.. but having it a 4x multiplier is still better... chroma was nerfed because he had a major bug where damage was double dipped, mirage does not have this issue... so i do not understand why such a extreme change..

 

however i will reconize that Mirages damage boost vastly outpaces other similar boosts... Rhino having up to 160% or so is the closest and his kit is overall not as impressive and Roar itself doesnt also have a Damage reduction option to it. so i dont know if i cannot say its too good... learning its become the goto bonus for Eidolon subsume kinda shocked me, as the last time i tried Mirage in hunts she could not produce extra damage as it was dark bonus the entire time.

Roar acts as a universal faction multiplier so it is multiplicative with serration and status procs double dip from it so if normal hit does x2 damage, proc acts like x4. If x3 it acts like x9 on proc ticks. And rhino has iron skin. Roar also increases any damage you do, not just weapon damage so that includes ability damage.

Eclipse increases both hit damage and proc damage(because proc scales from hit damage) but without double dip and only applies to weapons. They have different use-cases.

If you are playing with status damage or ability damage and don't mind the energy cost(75) then roar is better. If you want energy economy and only weapon damage + defensive option or just a cheap buff(25 energy) take eclipse.

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[0_The_F00l]

I personally thiink reducing teh number of multipliers in game is the way to go.

Next up , Roar 😱

[Redrigoth]

3 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

yes, this will make eclipse+any frame a bit weaker. this is a natural matter of course, as it was stated in the beginning that making eclipse a toggle ability may need the effectiveness to be reduced somewhat. however, if you read the exlipse feedback megathread, youll see that the community overwhelmingly requested this change. not only were people okay with removing the lighting/environmental interaction that made eclipse unique and fun(i understand that fixing it to work with the new lighting system would have required more work, but i still believe as i said before. that this would have been worth the wait) but basically everyone also agreed that some nerfs were totally acceptable as a trade off to make the power a toggle and therefore 100% reliable without any need for situational awareness. the point youre making here is that the changes occurring will result in the power being less commonly used, but this was a completely predictable result when it was suggested a couple weeks ago, and the community has spoken. the decision isnt what you wanted, nor i. but its what the majority of players agreed upon. the eclipse megathread is locked. bringing the subject back up now wont change anything. theres no real reason for this thread to exist

Get outta here with your bad faith bs argument. They can just nerf the % down to 100% from 200% and 75% for helminth and keep it multiplicative (this is what everyone expected) instead of turning it into "additive with serration" which would have massive diminishing returns.

[pwnSacrifice]

I mean, for mirage, it's more or less a buff. Being able to control the buff you get is pretty huge. Yeah, it'll be base damage, but most of the time the defensive buff will be more useful imo. 

For everyone else that wanted it for damage, I mean nourish is right... Oh right. Nerfs.

Xata's whisper anyone? Roar?

I think it's all a bit hyperbolic to say mirage is dead, and eclipse has always been too unreliable to use as a weapon buff through helminth over other options (even smite or shock +Aug is more reliable). 

Now instead of trying to jam eclipse on for offense, we get a reliable damage reduction with an option for offense. Seems ok to me

[Dax-Kriegor]

2 minutes ago, Redrigoth said:

Get outta here with your bad faith bs argument. They can just nerf the % down to 100% from 200% and 75% for helminth and keep it multiplicative (this is what everyone expected) instead of turning it into "additive with serration" which would have massive diminishing returns.

i dont see how this is a "bad faith bs argument"... this was an expected change, and if you didnt expect it, thats not my problem or anybody elses. the changes to eclipse have already been decided and the topic for providing feedback for eclipse has been closed. yes it makes eclipse less useful. this was to be expected. yes its not a great change. i said on the eclipse megathread(the appropriate place for feedback on this) that i didnt think it was a good change to start with. what good do you expect crying about it after the fact will do? whether you like it or not, this is what everyone said they wanted. and if youve been around more than a couple months you should realize that what warframe players SAY they want often isnt actually what they want once it happens. nothing will come of getting mad at me over it, just like nothing will come of trying to revive the topic once yall realize it wasnt the great change yall all thought it would be. as i said before. this thread has no real reason to exist

[KitMeHarder]

9 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

yes, this will make eclipse+any frame a bit weaker. this is a natural matter of course, as it was stated in the beginning that making eclipse a toggle ability may need the effectiveness to be reduced somewhat.

This is not a "bit" weaker. Did you even look at the graph?

9 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

however, if you read the exlipse feedback megathread, youll see that the community overwhelmingly requested this change.

We asked for it to be a toggle, we didn't ask for it's buffing functionality to completely change. I posted there twice and read many of the post.

You know what else I posted? That they need to not forget that her 2 and 4 are also dependent on lighting, but even that hasn't even been addressed. No, only a honestly backhanded response where the devs let us have what we want, but not without a catch.

[Dax-Kriegor]

Just now, KitMeHarder said:

This is not a "bit" weaker. Did you even look at the graph?

We asked for it to be a toggle, we didn't ask for it's buffing functionality to completely change. I posted there twice and read many of the post.

You know what else I posted? That they need to not forget that her 2 and 4 are also dependent on lighting, but even that hasn't even been addressed. No, only a honestly backhanded response where the devs let us have what we want, but not without a catch.

yes i looked at the graph, and yes i realized this was coming. what you call a "backhanded response... not without a catch" from another perspective could be interpreted as a balancing pass in line with the changes to the powers functionality. again, im not saying i agree with the change. from the start i said in the appropriate thread that i DIDNT want this change. but it is what it is now. as ive said, there doesnt appear to be any true reason this thread needs to exist... i dont believe that any change will come from this, and youre just reviving a dead topic because you dont like how theyre doing it, as far as i can tell

[MrDugan]

1 hour ago, Numerounius said:

Mirage isn't all about eclipse though. She isn't going anywhere.

There are a lot of players that use her as a one-trick pony with Eclipse though.  The problem is Helminth.  While I like the ability to remove bad skills or experiment with builds, Helminth got put in as a bandaid for players to fix bad kits themselves.  If Eclipse hadn't been her Helminth ability then this would not have happened, and they'd probably have picked a different solution for the lighting problem.

So she's getting nerfed because DE can't fix lighting issues and because players are so obsessed with big numbers that Eclipse got forced under a microscope.  

[KitMeHarder]

17 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

the changes to eclipse have already been decided and the topic for providing feedback for eclipse has been closed. [...] what good do you expect crying about it after the fact will do?

The same can be said of you, what do you hope to accomplish by discouraging others in this thread?

This is the feedback forums... where DE wants feedback of any type... and I'm posting feedback. Just because the dedicated thread was closed doesn't mean you can't give suggestions in the "official general feedback forums" in the hopes they see/implement them. Have you read this section of the forums...? It's all feedback, doesn't matter if there was an official thread first or not. This is the place you go if you want to be potentially heard (sadly, you have a better chance on Twitter).

11 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

i dont believe that any change will come from this, and youre just reviving a dead topic

No offense, but I feel like you might not know how these forums work (plus your account isn't even 2 months old). Maybe in a different videogame forums what I'm doing is improper/pointless etiquette, but that's not how it works in Warframe. There's always the option for change, especially before something is actually released. 

(Not a perfect example, but shard fusion was officially announced to cost 4 shards (no thread). But via community feedback it was changed to 3 shards this devstream.)

Edited February 24 by KitMeHarder

[DeathOfASaint]

5 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

.

Roar applies to literally every damage source you deal (abilities) and double dips on procs, not just weapons. Roar wasn't leaving anything it wasn't already on.

You act like we don't already have current Eclipse. Anywhere you currently us Eclipse has just gotten weaker, unreliability or not. (If you were already using Eclipse, you were already contending with/managing it.)

 

eclipse in its current form is fine because it’s inconsistent, obviously they weren’t going to let you toggle between dr and max dmg% and still let it be multiplicative with base damage 

 

like obviously it was gonna change, if it was still multiplicative it’d be just straight up roar powercreep outside of weps where dmg comes from status effects 

Edited February 24 by DeathOfASaint

[trst]

It's a buff across the board.

Mirage gets a reliable damage buff or a reliable damage resistance buff. Instead of randomly moving between the two and/or being unable to activate one due to the tileset you're playing on. Plus she doesn't need the damage buff to begin with due to how much of a damage buff (and then some) she gets out of Hall of Mirrors. Thus making it a net buff for her.

While as a Helminth ability any frame can now get a reliable damage resistance buff. Something that has been entirely lacking from the Helminth system minus the few armor buffs the system has which offer far less total reduction. While the damage loss doesn't matter due to there already being other damage buffs via Helminth. Thus a buff through gaining more options via Helminth.

[KitMeHarder]

4 minutes ago, DeathOfASaint said:

they weren’t going to let you toggle between dr and max dmg% and still let it be multiplicative

I don't need it to be "max dmg%", it can be something like 175% or 150%. But it needs to be multiplicative or it'll just be irrelevant.

Do you think anyone would care about Roar if it was just +100% base damage, barely more than Augur Pact? That's what's happening to Eclipse.

[Dax-Kriegor]

13 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

The same can be said of you, what do you hope to accomplish by discouraging others in this thread?

This is the feedback forums... where DE wants feedback of any type... and I'm posting feedback. Just because the dedicated thread was closed doesn't mean you can't give suggestions in the "official general feedback forums" in the hopes they see/implement them. Have you read this section of the forums...? It's all feedback, doesn't matter if there was an official thread first or not. This is the place you go if you want to be potentially heard (sadly, you have a better chance on Twitter).

No offense, but I feel like you might not know how these forums work (plus your account isn't even 2 months old). Maybe in a different videogame forums what I'm doing is improper/pointless etiquette, but that's not how it works in Warframe. There's always the option for change, especially before something is actually released. 

(Not a perfect example, but shard fusion was officially announced to cost 4 shards (no thread). But via community feedback it was changed to 3 shards this devstream.)

yes, my cross-save account is less than 2 months old... im sorry. when i enabled cross save it changed my profile on the forums from my ten year old account to this one, i cant help that. i wasnt really trying to accomplish anything, just remarking on what you were saying. putting my two cents in, as it were.. i didnt mean to upset you. ill just go back to quietly playing the game, since my feedback isnt welcome here on (as you pointed out) the feedback section of the forums...

[DeathOfASaint]

4 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I don't need it to be "max dmg%", it can be something like 175% or 150%. But it needs to be multiplicative or it'll just be irrelevant.

Do you think anyone would care about Roar if it was just +100% base damage, barely more than Augur Pact? That's what's happening to Eclipse.

i know how damage formulas work man

 175% multiplicative dmg is still higher than what roar provides which is like 30% at base lmfao

obviously they weren't let it gonna slide through 

[Numerounius]

8 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

There are a lot of players that use her as a one-trick pony with Eclipse though.  The problem is Helminth.  While I like the ability to remove bad skills or experiment with builds, Helminth got put in as a bandaid for players to fix bad kits themselves.  If Eclipse hadn't been her Helminth ability then this would not have happened, and they'd probably have picked a different solution for the lighting problem.

So she's getting nerfed because DE can't fix lighting issues and because players are so obsessed with big numbers that Eclipse got forced under a microscope.  

Yes, there is a lot of people using it only for eclipse, both on Mirage and in helminth but it is far from the only way to build her even if it is the popular way to do so.

Mirage is still highly usable without helminth.

Uh, all of her abilities would have been problematic in Helminth as-is. Prism-can't be in helminth due to being ultimate. Clones4hire or nukes4free were the other options which also have issues.

As for eclipse. Yes Plains and the labs were the main areas they highlighted as being problematic in relation to the lighting engine but getting a marginal 30% DR on a stair-way heavy tileset due to lighting now that we have specific solar and lunar buff values also needed to be fixed even under the old system that we didn't know about. Nnerfing it because it is flat out too strong is another option that is understandable.

Would I have liked it to be different? Probably, but it isn't going anywhere and still going to be a strong contender as an ability.