Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Voltage]

45 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

like mirage will probably still 1 tap a lot of things but being transparent about this would've probably been better

If anything, making it base damage will be more transparent in-game. I don't know if their decision to change the multiplier came before or after the planned toggle ideas. I'm cool with it though, as it lines up with what I said in that thread. :p

[Numerounius]

9 minutes ago, RizinCrossaveDup said:

The proposed change leaves her with a worse version of Vex armor since she either gets damage reduction or damage while chroma has both.

I've always though that Vex Armor should have been stronger than Eclipse and other damage buffing abilities. Vex Armor you have to take damage to health and stack up over time to get that maximum damage buff whereas Eclipse is instantaneous.

[Voltage]

I think many people are overreacting. The reason Warframes like Chroma fell out of favor is because of the multiplicative options like Eclipse Volt. If all damage buffing Warframes behaved with similar multipliers, Warframes like Chroma would become more compelling.

Mirage herself will still be in a very strong spot between her clones, Prism Guard, and Sleight of Hand. She's been an effective Warframe for many years despite nerfs on several occasions. This is a mere speed-bump for her.

Edited February 24 by Voltage

[Tiltskillet]

I don't think it's a great idea to change Eclipse to base damage  anyway.*. But at a bare minimum DE should apologize for implying the buff wouldn't change for Mirage and explain their reasoning for it.

 

*In isolation.  I can see it making sense as part of a large scale damage rework.)

[Redrigoth]

1 hour ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

Ah,sorry about that. I'm about to head I to work so I don't have time to go over the stream again,but I could've sworn Pablo mentioned in the first place that the buff would need to be altered since it was never intended for players to be running around w eclipse at full strength all the time.. that was, iirc, one of the problem points with how it currently behaves in profit taker/eidolon fights.

If I'm mistaken, thats my bad but the proposed change is basically exactly what I expected to happen if it was made a toggle, which is one of the bigger reasons I was much more content to simply wait and let the power be fixed to work as it originally was intended (the other being that the environmental/situational aspect of the power is a lot of fun)

He said it would need to be nerfed since it will be more consistent. That means instead of having 200% power sometimes and 95% reduction sometimes, you could have something like 130% power always or 90% reduction always, one or the other as you toggle between them. People agreed to a toggle with reduced value not a whole change to the power buff that makes it into a Hornet Strike mod.

Power buff should be 130% for mirage and 75% for helminth both multiplicative
Defense buff should be 80% for mirage and 50% affected by strength mod for helminth so non-mirage need more strength investment.
Toggle between one or the other. Recasting overwrites the old buff.

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[Redrigoth]

Power buff should be 130% for mirage and 75% for helminth both multiplicative
Defense buff should be 80% for mirage and 50% affected by strength mod for helminth so non-mirage need more strength investment.
Toggle between one or the other. Recasting overwrites the old buff.

And Chroma would still have his niche of having super high defense and a high additive bonus at the same time along with a choice buff from his 2.

And frames that subsume eclipse can get their damage mitigation helminth or a reasonable power boost. Their choice would one of these depending on the build:

• Elemental Damage + Energy buff from Nourish
• Multiplicative Damage + Defense buff from eclipse
• Faction Damage+status double dip+team buff from Roar

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[Skoomaseller]

24 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

*In isolation.  I can see it making sense as part of a large scale damage rework.)

i get the feeling that they're working on one. something to clearly differentiate between multiplicative and additive damage buffs, or just making buffs scale one way or the other, across the board. 

[Redrigoth]

Power buff should be 130% for mirage and 75% for helminth both multiplicative
Defense buff should be 80% for mirage and 50% affected by strength mod for helminth so non-mirage need more strength investment.
Toggle between one or the other. Recasting overwrites the old buff.

Making it additive will ruin mirage as a glass cannon when using power buff. It will be a Hornet strike mod but stronger
 

1 hour ago, ominumi said:

How much of a difference in damage output are we talking about here? 10 mil red crits to 9 million? Above all, DE will buff Mirage's other abilities to compensate.

If you look at a graph of 2 equations where one has eclipse at 130% multiplicative and the other has eclipse at 230% additive you will see massive fall off the more damage mods and strength you have on your build. We're talking reducing damage potential by 50% or 80% in some cases like when void strike buff is active

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 4 heures, MegaloStrikeBack a dit :

I watched the devstreams, but I don't remember them ever saying at any point that the reason why they have to make it additive has anything to do with the lighting issue. Please link me to where this was said if you can, but that sounds very completely not in line with the way the game works. If I understand what you're saying correctly, you're telling me that they can't keep it a multiplicative buff as it is because of the inconsistency of lighting in Warframe? I get that is why they want to rework into a tap or hold, not that it was the reason it had to become additive was a result of that.

Eclipse first came to be reworked because of the lighting bugs. The fact that they also change the damage buff's priority is something different that they only discussed in the most recent devstream, not before. Sorry if I sounded like I had other sources, I do not. I can only guess they're updating it to streamline it with the other sources of weapon damage buffs, but I can't confirm it. I doubt they're going to change their mind about it, unless they also plan on reverting the change to Vex Armor 6~7 years ago (was it this long?).

[Redrigoth]

People expected a reduction in % not whatever this is. Disappointment.

Power buff should be 130% for mirage and 75% for helminth both multiplicative
Defense buff should be 80% for mirage and 50% affected by strength mod for helminth so non-mirage need more strength investment.
Toggle between one or the other. Recasting overwrites the old buff.

Making it additive causes buff effectiveness fall-off between 40-80% as your build has more Base Damage mods and ability Strength mods. It kills the glass cannon Mirage.

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

3 hours ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

They literally said tap/hold with a nerf to helminth.

And everyone I saw on that thread said "YES, tap/hold and nerf helminth version"

I love how everyone complaining missed that detail

[Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, ominumi said:

Above all, DE will buff Mirage's other abilities to compensate.

Is there any reason to believe this? It seems much more likely that Mirage will be forgotten, since she's not even the reason this nerf happened. This was a change driven by helminth Eclipse users, not Mirage users.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Wait until people realize how ridiculous Xatas is on Mirage lol

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

i think it's important to communicate a change as big as changing how the damage is calculated clearly 

like mirage will probably still 1 tap a lot of things but being transparent about this would've probably been better

That is true. But even if they communicated this I'd still vote for the tap/hold since it is guaranteed and not fluctuating based on light. I know what I get, it wont be randomly impacted by external sources, my damage output or survival will be the same when I need either no matter where I am. Which is a much greater benefit than 1-tapping an enemy more, since well I cant do it quicker than with a 1-tap.

[Ampathetiic]

3 hours ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

They literally said tap/hold with a nerf to helminth.

Here's the quote:

• "We can change Eclipse to work more reliably, but may need to reduce its effectiveness when used as a Helminth ability by reducing its power, duration, or other factors."
  • "Eclipse is already the 2nd most popular Helminth ability, so removing its main barrier to entry (reliability) would mean a rebalance is in order. This effectiveness reduction would not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from the Helminth."

This falls under the vague "other factors" change, which people have a right to be upset over, as they had no way of knowing what that would entail. Second, they just lied about the change not affecting Mirage's Eclipse, which we absolutely should be upset over.

Edited February 24 by Ampathetiic

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

Well, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that even half of the people that provided feedback were Mirage players.

I do think that what Mirage players want is more important than what people who just use her Helminth ability want.

[SneakyErvin]

I think it is a bit of an over reaction since people seem to ignore the elephant in the room that is the current (soon old) scaling based on light source damage. And in the feedback thread tap/hold was the most common suggestion overall, with some also going more into detail that they wanted to also retain the light source mechanic among other things. Which in the end would still make it an unreliable damage buff or defense buff if that part was toggled.

So overall, unless you always dodge around and make sure to be fully lit, the "nerf" will like end up being an overall buff. Nowhere have DE implied that the damage would stay as is if it was always guaranteed maximum effect. It would be quite absurd considering Roar is 100% as a guaranteed damage source while Eclipse currently reaches 200%. Guaranteeing it to always be at max with the toggle would be quite silly even if it only applies to weapons. And if we compare it to Rhino, he doesnt exactly sport a multitude of damaging abilities that can benefit from roar also applying to abilities. Nor does he have any other ability to further increase the damage of those weapons he is bound to use in order to kill.

So from 200% fluctuation multiplicative to 350% guaranteed additive base seems like quite a fair trade and a far more reliable skill.

[ominumi]

30 minutes ago, Ampathetiic said:

Is there any reason to believe this? It seems much more likely that Mirage will be forgotten, since she's not even the reason this nerf happened. This was a change driven by helminth Eclipse users, not Mirage users.

Eclipse changes is because of Mirage users, NOT helmith users. Helmith just expose the issue for more people to see. The changes will also make more people subsume Eclipse since it's a toggle with more control. Damage reduction on a squishy frame? Who doesn't want that?

[Ampathetiic]

I totally understand them making the change based on player feedback, because it was abundantly clear that people wanted Eclipse to have the tap/hold. However, it seems somewhat lazy to me that they only changed Eclipse, and didn't even bother to fix the lighting for Mirage's other 2 abilities that depend on environmental lighting. To me, that demonstrates that Mirage is basically irrelevant in this decision, and that DE don't really care that her kit isn't properly implemented with the rest of the game.

I would love a Mirage design that actually works around environmental lighting to provide interesting gameplay that causes you to pay attention to a usually overlooked part of environmental design; that sounds really fun and interesting. However, it seems to me that the designers aren't willing to dedicate the resources needed for that kit to be properly implemented, so I'd rather they completely strip out the lighting mechanics and just make Mirage a functional frame with light and darkness as flavor, instead of the current solution that disappoints both Mirage users and Eclipse users.

[Ampathetiic]

1 minute ago, ominumi said:

Eclipse changes is because of Mirage users, NOT helmith users. Helmith just expose the issue for more people to see. The changes will also make more people subsume Eclipse since it's a toggle with more control. Damage reduction on a squishy frame? Who doesn't want that?

If this was a change driven by Mirage users, why are Prism and Sleight of Hand left untouched without being mentioned? They have the same exact inconsistencies, but they aren't popular infusion choices, so we aren't talking about them.

[ominumi]

I wonder if we can get the light/dark mechanics as a augment passive. Something to go into the exilus slot.

[ominumi]

3 minutes ago, Ampathetiic said:

If this was a change driven by Mirage users, why are Prism and Sleight of Hand left untouched without being mentioned? They have the same exact inconsistencies, but they aren't popular infusion choices, so we aren't talking about them.

Are we talking about an entire Mirage rework or just changes to Eclipse? It looks like DE is addressing the immediate issue before making drastic changes. Beta test if you will.

[Ampathetiic]

Just now, ominumi said:

Are we talking about an entire Mirage rework or just changes to Eclipse? It looks like DE is addressing the immediate issue before making drastic changes. Beta test if you will.

I would imagine if they were thinking about changing the other two abilities, they'd communicate that in any way. They haven't communicated that, which is why I ask if there's any reason to believe they'd make other changes. To me, it seems pretty clear that Mirage is basically irrelevant in this change, and this change was driven by Eclipse popularity in the Helminth system.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

15 minutes ago, ominumi said:

I wonder if we can get the light/dark mechanics as a augment passive. Something to go into the exilus slot.

They changed the ability precisely because of the fact the light/dark mechanic was either inconsistent or flat out didn't work with the new lighting system. What makes you think they'll add it back in as an augment?

[sunderthefirmament]

26 minutes ago, Ampathetiic said:

I totally understand them making the change based on player feedback, because it was abundantly clear that people wanted Eclipse to have the tap/hold. However, it seems somewhat lazy to me that they only changed Eclipse, and didn't even bother to fix the lighting for Mirage's other 2 abilities that depend on environmental lighting. To me, that demonstrates that Mirage is basically irrelevant in this decision, and that DE don't really care that her kit isn't properly implemented with the rest of the game.

I would love a Mirage design that actually works around environmental lighting to provide interesting gameplay that causes you to pay attention to a usually overlooked part of environmental design; that sounds really fun and interesting. However, it seems to me that the designers aren't willing to dedicate the resources needed for that kit to be properly implemented, so I'd rather they completely strip out the lighting mechanics and just make Mirage a functional frame with light and darkness as flavor, instead of the current solution that disappoints both Mirage users and Eclipse users.

I'm in favor of a full rework for her.  Currently, she's an egg-timer weapons platform frame, or a boring "press one button to nuke the entire map" frame.  I wish they'd lean into the illusionist theme and give her clones something else to do besides duplicate her weapons.  Something like the Mesmer from Guild Wars 2 would be nice.  As it stands, she's almost as poor of an execution of her theme as Octavia.