Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[ThatLuJan]

5 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

And this folks true colors come out for all to see.

With the smoke and mirrors shattered it looks as though in the end everyone was actually upset about the subsume version after all. 

Mirage being nerfed was just the cover story for it. 

30% may be low on paper, but it is effected by power strength. Additionally, everyone, including their whole family, the cousins too; are only focusing on the DPS aspect of the ability. Completely ignoring that unlock Roar the ability ALSO grants 90% DR.

Um...an ability that grants 90% DR AND can swapped to grants very high DPS at the top of a button is ridiculously powerful and versatile. 

Roar does better DPS yes. But that is ALL roar does. 

Eclipse is significantly more versatile and thus it cannot and should not match roar in DPS. End of story.

Not only is 30% low on paper its also very low IN MISSION. Trying to justify this massive dmg nerf by saying "but the dmg reduction tho" completely ignores the fact that 99% of people that currently use eclipse do so for the dmg increase & not for the dmg reduction. So if the current changes do go through it will be the death of eclipse for every frame except Mirage. And currently Eclipse already barely manages to match roar in the content where it is used, meanwhile roar will still outclass it when it comes to buffing warframe abilities & DoT based setups too.

Edited February 27 by ThatLuJan

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

14 minutes ago, Sinner said:

The challenging content in the game RN is open world bosses where eclipse is the meta subsume and we get like 90+% of the listed value

 

 

I hope you understand what I mean when I say that content isn't challenging in the sense that it isn't very reaction oriented but rather how knowledgeable you are on the faction's weaknesses stat-wise. Eidolons can be reaction-oriented but in the sense that it only matters when trying to increase how many you can kill in a given amount of time. It doesn't require much input coordination which is what I find to be the most rewarding challenges to overcome. A live service game must cast a large net and I understand these kind of challenges will shut out people for one reason or another. It's just incredibly disappointing.

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Refreshee]

Just now, ThatLuJan said:

Not only is 30% low on paper its also very low IN MISSION. Trying to justify this massive dmg nerf by saying "but the dmg reduction tho" completely ignores the fact that 99% of people that currently use eclipse do so for the dmg increase & not for the dmg reduction. So if the current changes do go through it will be the death of eclipse for every frame except Mirage

Once Roar is #1, we can nerf Roar too; it is pretty likely that will be the result of these changes, and nothing in the #1 spot or #2 spot is balanced, so they need to be nerfed.  Then when Nourish is #1 again, we nerf Nourish, and we just keep nerfing until using the Helminth to put an ability on your frame increases damage taken and decreases damage dealt.  

[Aerikx]

Just now, ThatLuJan said:

Not only is 30% low on paper its also very low IN MISSION. Trying to justify this massive dmg nerf by saying "but the dmg reduction tho" completely ignores the fact that 99% of people that currently use eclipse do so for the dmg increase & not for the dmg reduction. So if the current changes do go through it will be the death of eclipse for every frame except Mirage

Well if they only cared for DPS then they should have been using Roar to begin with. 

Your argument basically says:

"Everyone was using it for DPS leave the dps alone. Don't factor in any other utility the ability grants."

That is just bad design. 

The ability isn't a one trick pony. Therefore you cannot treat it as such. Whether you use it or not, you have to respect/acknowledge that the ability does more than just DPS. 

That's just a fact.

Nourish also does MULTIPLE things. Which is why it's also getting a minor nerf. 

There are plenty of Warframe who would LOVE a 90% DR.

[Magestle]

Currently the helminth version is way to nerfed.

Compared to other nerfs the difference is way too drastic. Roar went from 50% -> 30% while eclipse is jumping from 200% -> 30%?

Roar is a teamwide buff and double dips with dots while buffing abilities. Below we can see the numbers for a slash proc at different strengths and even with a bane roar is on top.

I believe nerfing eclipse to 75%-100% would be a lot fairer of an option and would allow for both these abilities to have their different use cases. 

[Redrigoth]

56 minutes ago, ThatLuJan said:

Because if Roar & Eclipse are just "on par" then nobody will ever use eclipse again. If they both offer the same increase for raw dmg but roar also increases abilities & double dips DoTs then roar just becomes a direct upgrade to eclipse

People never used eclipse for the damage reduction it offered. So trying to say that alone justifies nuking the dmg increase is asinine

A note on the damage reduction part. Nobody used it for damage reduction because flaky defense is useless. You're either alive or dead. Now that you can get a fixed number for defense, people might use it for that purpose along with 1000 armor to achieve 95% reduction(if it is 75% reduction on eclipse). 99% reduction if eclipse can scale with strength(assuming adaptation is fully stacked and you didn't die while stacking it).

Agree the power buff is too weak though. If you can activate one of the eclipse buffs at any time then by losing the defensive buff, the damage buff should be atleast decent. I think it should be 50%. Not as good as roar overall but still good for the upfront damage plus it gets defensive versatility so worth using. Go Roar if you want pure power.

Edited February 27 by Redrigoth

[ThatLuJan]

17 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Well if they only cared for DPS then they should have been using Roar to begin with. 

Your argument basically says:

"Everyone was using it for DPS leave the dps alone. Don't factor in any other utility the ability grants."

That is just bad design. 

The ability isn't a one trick pony. Therefore you cannot treat it as such. Whether you use it or not, you have to respect/acknowledge that the ability does more than just DPS. 

That's just a fact.

Nourish also does MULTIPLE things. Which is why it's also getting a minor nerf. 

There are plenty of Warframe who would LOVE a 90% DR.

So the solution is the kill the dmg buffing aspect of the ability just some people "might" use it for DR? Why would they even use it for dmg reduction when we already have better options to begin with. Shield gating, crowd control, and just killing enemies will always be better than dmg reduction because at high enough lvls anything under than 100% WILL NOT SAVE YOU. But saying "most people dont go past base sp" means you would have to be intentionally ignoring the fact that DE have slowly but surely been adding higher & higher lvl content with every update. From Zariman endurance, Lua conjunction survival, Duviri circuit, to netracells, the 60 eyes boos & even the upcoming "Deep archemedia." You can not deny that DE are adding higher lvl content with each update. So eventually more & more people WILL realize that any amount of dmg reduction under 100% is completely useless.

Edited February 27 by ThatLuJan

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

53 minutes ago, Sinner said:

Even on a health tanking setup, null star is a better source of DR and even then, why not use gloom for a way to Regen health and keep enemies from hitting you? The fact that it's easier to avoid getting hit than it is to simply survive damage is one of the most important things to remember when balancing numbers in this game. As soon as you hit SP levels, any amount of DR less than 100% becomes useless in 10 minutes.

Those players may use health tanking and want to rely on DR, but because of how this game functions, the simple fact that you can get DR should not be a reason to significantly reduce the damage bonus.

Maybe what should be changed is the inability to have both the damage buff and the Dr at the same time, and make the most recently cast version just remove the old one. That way we can balance them around the different buffs in isolation and not use both, because we never had access to both before either

DE is very open minded when it comes to accessibility and I hope you can be too.

Gloom doesn't offer an increase in damage, just CC and healing. Null star offers DR and some armor stripping/damage via heat procs. Eclipse offers DR and damage. Yes, people who are dps-oriented don't care about a lot of these abilities. Why doesn't everyone just use Vazarin Protective Sling and ditch Augur mods/ Brief Respite/ Rolling Guard, Vitality, Adaptation, Catalyzing Shields, etc so they can minmax to the fullest?

Some people have disabilities that render them incapable of having this playstyle or they really want a crutch to lead a more comfortable Warframe experience. With small variations within abilities, DE can cater to a large audience.

There's also the matter of what subsume plays well into whatever head canon or theme a player wants to create for their operator and warframe. The animation of the ability cast and sound it makes along with the aura that's applied to our model are all things we take into account, regardless if it's the most optimal subsume. There is a portion of the player base who participate more into fashion frame and community dialogue than they play the game. However, playing the game is still a crucial part of their experience.

This is starting to go more off topic but, I want people to realize that DPS is not the most important thing in this game and it really hasn't made much of a difference after armor stripping became more available.

I follow the meta as much as anyone else here, but you guys really have hard heads.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suspect the people who are most mad about this nerf are those in the speed running communities who don't want the leaderboards to slow down.

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Halo]

Allow me to shorten the entire idea of wanting to change Eclipse, make it more accessible for people to swap between buffs, and also simultaneously try to change how it acts, and now with the final conclusion based off what Reb has stated in the Dev Short today:



"We're nerfing the Helminth version of Eclipse... AGAIN, but also making it a toggle"



Yeah, that's the short version of what's going to happen. 

Someone at DE really hates Eidolons or people having fun. Roar is actually going to be overall better now, and there will never be any math to say otherwise if this comes to fruition after Dante Unbound comes out. There will be no place for Eclipse if they nerf it to some percentage that is ON PAR (technically worse overall) with Roar, because Roar will just be flat-out BETTER. It works on yourself, AND YOUR TEAMMATES. 

Leave Eclipse's final percentage from the helminth alone at 150%. Bad enough you already nerfed it from it's original 200% when it first released, but if you actually go through with ruining it, and making it obsolete, then good job in killing an ability people actually liked using. 

I might not be a die-hard Eidolon Hunter like some people are, but this just seems targeted. I only really use it for PT also, so I also feel like I'm in this group of people whom you're just trying to make life different, or in this case worse. 

30%, you got to actually be ----ing joking. 

Actually upsetting. 

Edit: Figured out the little scheme going on here. The second Roar tops Eclipse, you're just going to nerf it also. Thanks, now we all know.

Edited February 27 by Halo
Future Sight Information

[Numerounius]

19 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

With the smoke and mirrors shattered it looks as though in the end everyone was actually upset about the subsume version after all.

Um...an ability that grants 90% DR AND can swapped to grants very high DPS at the top of a button is ridiculously powerful and versatile. 

There are plenty of Warframe who would LOVE a 90% DR.

The subsume version does not even reach 90% DR. It has a 75% DR cap.

If people bothered to look at the DR aspect there are other options it would be compared it to in helminth if we are looking at it from a DR perspective. I'm sure people will once the update drops and see if there is any potential. But right now as it stands with how much those other subsume options are being used from a DR perspective comparatively means that trying to say that it is being uplifted because of the DR aspect isn't true when 90% of the time it is going to be used for (weapon) damage buff alone.

[ThatLuJan]

4 minutes ago, Halo said:

Allow me to shorten the entire idea of wanting to change Eclipse, make it more accessible for people to swap between buffs, and also simultaneously try to change how it acts, and now with the final conclusion based off what Reb has stated in the Dev Short today:



"We're nerfing the Helminth version of Eclipse... AGAIN, but also making it a toggle"



Yeah, that's the short version of what's going to happen. 

Someone at DE really hates Eidolons or people having fun. Roar is actually going to be overall better now, and there will never be any math to say otherwise if this comes to fruition after Dante Unbound comes out. There will be no place for Eclipse if they nerf it to some percentage that is ON PAR (technically worse overall) with Roar, because Roar will just be flat-out BETTER. It works on yourself, AND YOUR TEAMMATES. 

Leave Eclipse's final percentage from the helminth alone at 150%. Bad enough you already nerfed it from it's original 200% when it first released, but if you actually go through with ruining it, and making it obsolete, then good job in killing an ability people actually liked using. 

I might not be a die-hard Eidolon Hunter like some people are, but this just seems targeted. I only really use it for PT also, so I also feel like I'm in this group of people whom you're just trying to make life different, or in this case worse. 

30%, you got to actually be ----ing joking. 

Actually upsetting. 

After this & the melee influence nerf im convinced someone at DE absolutely DESPISES Mirage with every fiber of their being

Edited February 27 by ThatLuJan

[Halo]

Just now, ThatLuJan said:

After this & the melee influence nerf im convinced somone at DE absolutely despises Mirage with every fiber of their being

The Influence fix was warranted, as you would proc it while shooting guns (I.E. not actually attacking with your melee wep).

But yeah, seems like 2024 is the "We Hate Mirage and Making a Statement" at DE at the moment. 

[Numerounius]

6 minutes ago, ThatLuJan said:

After this & the melee influence nerf im convinced somone at DE absolutely despises Mirage with every fiber of their being

Don't forget that she didn't even have a properly functioning passive for the longest time.

Or the ammo drop changes for explosive legerdemain.

At least they are trying to give her some stuff and bringing attention to her but yeah she is not getting the happy end of the stick.

[Tiltskillet]

51 minutes ago, Sinner said:

As soon as you hit SP levels, any amount of DR less than 100% becomes useless in 10 minutes.

Where do you get this idea from?  I can play Banshee 30 minutes in SP with a health/armor set up without using revives.  (Usually!)

 Granted, I probably have better gear than most players.  OTOH, I don't think there is a frame that's worse at this playstyle than her.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

You can also health tank up to level 3,000 but no, people have trouble as soon as they get to SP and the first build they see online involves shield-gating lol.

Baruuk has something like 9 million EHP or something right? It's definitely possible to tank very high levels.

3 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Where do you get this idea from?  I can play Banshee 30 minutes in SP with a health/armor set up without using revives.  (Usually!)

 Granted, I probably have better gear than most players.  OTOH, I don't think there is a frame that's worse at this playstyle than her.

 

Edited February 27 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[NaoQalli]

EDIT: I'm wrong, whoops.

Edited February 27 by NaoQalli

[vaacant]

mirage is getting hella buffed though? It is the subsume that is getting the nerf, this literally has to do with every other frame except mirage. How can you with a straight face without an ounce of irony say that they hate mirage

 

but subsume is way too low make it 60% or something

[ThatLuJan]

4 minutes ago, NaoQalli said:

Quick, nobody tell him that Eclipse + Bane triple dips instead of Roar + Bane which is additive double dip lol

You shouldnt even be using Roar + a bane to begin with since they're both faction dmg modifiers 

[NaoQalli]

EDIT: I'm wrong, whoops.

Edited February 27 by NaoQalli

[ThatLuJan]

2 minutes ago, NaoQalli said:

But Eclipse + Bane is still a triple dip.

Yes, but if the currently planned changes go through it'll still be worse than roar on an optimized setup

[NaoQalli]

EDIT: I'm wrong, whoops.

Edited February 27 by NaoQalli

[CrownOfShadows]

Ima chime in and agree 30% feels a bit too low. This feels like "we're changing back to multiplicative but accomplishing our design goals anyway by bringing down the multiplier"

I'd actually recommend nerfing the DR side slightly in addition to bringing this back up a bit. Giving everyone constant 90% DR feels like game-breaking helminth, but something like 75% DR might be ok

[MegaloStrikeBack]

I'm really happy about Mirage remaining the same (but better because of consistency), thank you for listening to the community and being so open-minded. 

[Sinner]

7 minutes ago, NaoQalli said:

Why though? Can't you just subsume Eclipse over Roar, tweak one of your mod to use Bane, then you get the benefit of triple dip minus one mod you might have used to replace it?

Warframe is a game where stacking multipliers supercedes virtually anything in this game, so I just don't see how that's a less optimized option.

Because faction damage is squared for DoT effects and roar also buffs abilities. If the build uses slash procs, heat procs, toxin procs, electric procs, or abilities at all then roar will be a stronger multiplier even if you already have a primed bane mod slotted on the weapons. Faction damage is just that good.

And like you said, stacking multipliers does kinda supercede everything but that's mainly because the multipliers we get are in huge quantities. Faction damage isn't offered in such large amounts while also being effectively 2 multipliers thus twice the value. 

[Sinner]

31 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Where do you get this idea from?  I can play Banshee 30 minutes in SP with a health/armor set up without using revives.  (Usually!)

 Granted, I probably have better gear than most players.  OTOH, I don't think there is a frame that's worse at this playstyle than her.

Because once standard health + armor isn't enough to prevent you from being 1 shot, an extra source of 90% Dr gets out scaled in 2 rounds or less of further scaling. Either way the best way to reduce damage received is still just simply by avoiding it or by shield gating it so the DR is still not worth discussing.