Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

5 hours ago, spider_enigma said:

its one or the other, u cant get both at the same time

Here's an instance in which the toggle will be useful:

You're clearing trash enemies in Disruption where the DR will be useful like in Lua, Apollo. You don't need a damage buff on trash mobs because they are trash. You then toggle the damage buff when taking down the Demolyst. I'm not saying this will be useful for you, but I can see how it would be for others.

Edited February 29 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[PollexMessier]

If eclipse's damage reduction was actually usable as a subsumed ability, than maybe that damage nerf is justifiable....

But unless you keep the DR at 90-95% that damage nerf is unacceptable.

75% will do next to nothing on the frames that actually need a good DR subsume to survive. We're just kindof completely lacking anything of the sort rn and it's kindof annoying. I'm sick of sticking pillage on literally everything to not die because I don't wanna use 3 mod slots and an arcane to have a functional shield gate build.

You guys can't even balance glass cannon frames to be actual glass cannons and 90% of the time their damaging abilities are about as useful as any other frame that also happens to have a busted DR ability or two. If you could, Maybe this would make sense. But as the game is, and always will be, this is a stupid decision.

Edited March 2 by PollexMessier

[_Anise_]

2 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

If eclipse's damage reduction was actually useable than maybe that damage nerf is justifiable.

tbh I want to use it just for the damage reduction, they said it would be capped at 90% and didn't mention what the helminth cap would be

just curious what number people think the DR has to be at for it to be usable ? should I half 90% and add 7% ? 52% ?

[Captain_Dark21]

30 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

tbh I want to use it just for the damage reduction, they said it would be capped at 90% and didn't mention what the helminth cap would be

just curious what number people think the DR has to be at for it to be usable ? should I half 90% and add 7% ? 52% ?

I think they reversed all of that for Mirage her self so her base should be the same with it capped off at 95%. Helminth we don't know what will be permenant

[PollexMessier]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

tbh I want to use it just for the damage reduction, they said it would be capped at 90% and didn't mention what the helminth cap would be

just curious what number people think the DR has to be at for it to be usable ? should I half 90% and add 7% ? 52% ?

My bad. Chain of misinformation and didn't do my due diligence. Thought it capped at 75% but that's just the starting value before power strength.

90-95% is good and what I was asking for. I'll probably be using it a lot for that provided the duration isn't obliterated. I do think they overshot the damage nerf still tho.

Edited March 1 by PollexMessier

[Numerounius]

2 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

My bad. Chain of misinformation and didn't do my due diligence. Thought it capped at 75% but that's just the starting value before power strength.

90-95% is good and what I was asking for. I'll probably be using it a lot for that provided the duration isn't obliterated. I do think they overshot the damage nerf still tho.

Eclipse is capped at 75% DR in helminth in accordance to the description of diminished effectiveness. Which is also its starting power strength.

Mirage Eclipse cap is 95% which has been mentioned as being brought down to 90% in the devstream to be in line with other sources of DR. That 5% difference is hardly going to be noticeable. Now will it be noticeable from Mirage(90%) to Helminth (75%) or even stacking with other sources like null star? Yes. But nobody's bothered to look at Eclipse from that perspective hence why Eclipse DR was rarely commented on, if at all, before these changes were announced/labs introduction.

Why they didn't include this information regarding DR into this post as a mention of what's being done for Eclipse updates and follow-up in order to make it clear to what's happening for that half of the ability since they breezed over that one DR change in the devstream I don't know. But I would not be shocked if the DR limit was made the same for both Mirage and as a subsumed ability once we get the full patch note regarding this ability change.

Duration I don't think is being touched on at all and if it did there is the recasting function of it which I doubt they would also obliterate that on top of the duration. That would make life different for me as an energized munitions Mirage main.

[PrimedLaundrySauce]

7 hours ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Here's an instance in which the toggle will be useful:

You're clearing trash enemies in Disruption where the DR will be useful like in Lua, Apollo. You don't need a damage buff on trash mobs because they are trash. You then toggle the damage buff when taking down the Demolyst. I'm not saying this will be useful for you, but I can see how it would be for others.

 

If you want survivability in disruption endurance you wont be using DR ever, shield gate, be invis, play rev, have a team mate rev using mesmer shield, or have strong crowd control. Playing like that makes damage way more valuable since clearing S#&$ fast is a means of surviving since then less things to hit you. The DR for the most part will never be used unless youre doing extreme meme strats as inaros or less meme worthy hildryn shenanigans. 

[PrimedLaundrySauce]

4 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

tbh I want to use it just for the damage reduction, they said it would be capped at 90% and didn't mention what the helminth cap would be

just curious what number people think the DR has to be at for it to be usable ? should I half 90% and add 7% ? 52% ?

For the most part with current tools in the game for survivability, DR just isnt that useful to subsume for. Unless you are playing a frame that already has such ludicrous damage to the point where some DR can help stay alive way better, say maybe banshee then it could be nice, but for banshee you could also use a different subsume and shield gate with it and can also provide another benefit.

[vylexes]

23 hours ago, YNCShadow said:

The point is... players actually dont pick eclipse as a daily use power before, because we get Gauss.. incarnon weapons.. and more ways to face daily mission instead of using eclipse. What players really use eclipse is when we face Profit taker orb/Eidolon hunting, and what happen is players can easily reach the highest eclipse when they are in orb vallis mission(also the same thing in night plains of eidolon), so what players really get from this change is only nerf.. 

If in fact you were speaking about Meta sheep you would 100% be correct but to paint a broad stroke across the board and act like you are 100% correct is like saying people go to dunkin donuts for there donuts only, Because in fact people also go there to get cup of coffee or hot chocolate. I use Eclipse in every day use on many frames, And why is this well because it is quite useful when it does work, Which is about 70% of the time, people were literally talking about change for the 30% an well we ended up with that precise % ironic is it not.

When saying this is all it is good for doesn't make DE want to take another look and say yea maybe they are right it could be too low, They look at a comment like this and say see this is why we need it to be 30%, When it fact there is so many more uses that people either are not wise to or just can't read a wiki.

[YNCShadow]

3小时前 , vylexes 说:

If in fact you were speaking about Meta sheep you would 100% be correct but to paint a broad stroke across the board and act like you are 100% correct is like saying people go to dunkin donuts for there donuts only, Because in fact people also go there to get cup of coffee or hot chocolate. I use Eclipse in every day use on many frames, And why is this well because it is quite useful when it does work, Which is about 70% of the time, people were literally talking about change for the 30% an well we ended up with that precise % ironic is it not.

When saying this is all it is good for doesn't make DE want to take another look and say yea maybe they are right it could be too low, They look at a comment like this and say see this is why we need it to be 30%, When it fact there is so many more uses that people either are not wise to or just can't read a wiki.

I know sry about my somewhat extreme viewpoint about how players will use eclipse, i did use eclipse in daily mission too for e.g. i might use it on the steel path or index or something. My whole point is reducing eclipse to 30% is just a nerf, to everyone. If u face those daily mission we dont rely on eclipse to increase our damage or make mission easier, but for Profit taker-orb and eidolon hunting, the only thing we can pick is eclipse, because its the only and the best helmith power to increase weapon damage, as we all know profit orb and eidolon cant be hurt by powers and status. 

Actually im not a player who really like Profit orb or eidolon hunting, but they are part of the game. What I really care about is that this is the first time they have nerf a helminth power 85%, which is extremely high and has never happened before, i don't want new warframe helminth power continue becoming weaker and weaker.

I agree with ur opinion and im definitely not hundred percent correct, Im grateful for the correction.

Btw, I still think 120% is just right, it won't as powerful as what saryn+roar can make now, and it won't hurt players who like profit taker and eidolon hunting, and the core purpose of this change, which is to eliminate the instability of this power, has been achieved.

Edited March 1 by YNCShadow

[PollexMessier]

On 2024-02-29 at 7:39 PM, Numerounius said:

Eclipse is capped at 75% DR in helminth in accordance to the description of diminished effectiveness. Which is also its starting power strength.

Mirage Eclipse cap is 95% which has been mentioned as being brought down to 90% in the devstream to be in line with other sources of DR. That 5% difference is hardly going to be noticeable. Now will it be noticeable from Mirage(90%) to Helminth (75%) or even stacking with other sources like null star? Yes. But nobody's bothered to look at Eclipse from that perspective hence why Eclipse DR was rarely commented on, if at all, before these changes were announced/labs introduction.

Why they didn't include this information regarding DR into this post as a mention of what's being done for Eclipse updates and follow-up in order to make it clear to what's happening for that half of the ability since they breezed over that one DR change in the devstream I don't know. But I would not be shocked if the DR limit was made the same for both Mirage and as a subsumed ability once we get the full patch note regarding this ability change.

Duration I don't think is being touched on at all and if it did there is the recasting function of it which I doubt they would also obliterate that on top of the duration. That would make life different for me as an energized munitions Mirage main.

Ok thank you that clears things up.

75% DR is basically nothing in this game. They might as well have just removed it entirely for all the difference it would make. I'll still get randomly one-shot with a 90-95% dr ability active in missions that aren't even steel path. What would be the harm in just keeping the DR at 95? Making frames that are lacking in the defense department, with no real benefit to compensate because the vast majority of damaging abilities don't scale well to high levels, actually usable without abusing shield gate? Man what a disaster that would be.

[MrDugan]

On 2024-02-27 at 10:18 PM, Captain_Dark21 said:

Best thing is they said they wouldn't be nerfing Eclipse for her but only the helminth. Then they turned around and nerfed it for her and the helminth only to retract it back for Mirage only lol. My biggest issue with DE is they make a lot of false promises like stick to what you said originally and leave it that way.

There's a solid chance the first nerf was issued specifically to be a bad offer, so that when players rioted the next offer would look better.  What's funny is, I would have been fine with what they're currently doing without the bad offer, and most of you are probably even angrier because they put out such a bad nerf to start with.  It's an unpopular opinion, but I personally think things like Roar and Eclipse are overused with Helminth, and that they're completely unnecessary for anything other than speedrun attempts at various content.  I'm not a fan of nerfs in PVE games to start with, but...  I really don't think this change is that bad.  

[Sinner]

On 2024-02-29 at 3:39 PM, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Here's an instance in which the toggle will be useful:

You're clearing trash enemies in Disruption where the DR will be useful like in Lua, Apollo. You don't need a damage buff on trash mobs because they are trash. You then toggle the damage buff when taking down the Demolyst. I'm not saying this will be useful for you, but I can see how it would be for others.

What's crazy is you also don't need DR for trash mobs and the damage you gain for the demolyst is worse than roar on the vast majority of loadouts. 

[Sinner]

I wish we could get a response about their decision from this point after all this discussion has been made. It's really frustrating to have all these different points shared and literal math shown on why 30% is too low as well as how it impacts the accessibility for open world bosses and just be left with no response, nothing but silence from DE about the complaints.

They get all this credit for being one of the most communicative dev teams and yet I still feel very left in the dark on their entire process and ideas, even moreso about nerfs like this. 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

33 minutes ago, Sinner said:

What's crazy is you also don't need DR for trash mobs and the damage you gain for the demolyst is worse than roar on the vast majority of loadouts. 

Idk about you but I'm getting hit a lot more when hunting for a key with PC spawn rates in Lua, Apollo than I am when confronting a Demolyst. I'm not sure why you're not getting this but the decrease in damage compared to Roar is the trade off for also having DR. The difference between Roar and Eclipse TTK wise is probably less than couple seconds, fractions even in most gameplay. Also, not everyone chooses to nuke enemies or use frames with a lot of CC. We can still avoid a lot of damage by using the operator in a health tanking setup but at point you're not exactly playing lazily anymore like a health tanking build should allow for. Let's say near the point right before health tanking no longer becomes viable. Why use arcanes like Consequence when you can just use void dash everywhere? Different playstyles. I've done lvl cap with a console host in Apollo and the enemies are incredibly sparse to the point that you have to actually look for them but it can get hectic on PC if you're not abusing CC abilities, operator cloak, Magus Lockdown, etc.

I'd also argue that the visual effect you get from Eclipse is one of the better ones. I'll take aesthetic over functionality in an easy game any day.

I can't say I care about open world bosses in the slightest but it would be heartless of me to not care about those who still play 8 year old content that has now become redundant due to arcane dissolution. The nerf is supposedly for the sake of game wide balance. Would it be alright if DE upped the drop rates for Eidolons in exchange for having the runs be slower or will people quit simply because power and pace were taken from them?

Edited March 2 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Halo]

7 minutes ago, Sinner said:

They get all this credit for being one of the most communicative dev teams and yet I still feel very left in the dark on their entire process and ideas, even moreso about nerfs like this. 

Not fully deserved at times. 

Tell this to the Pathocyst being bugged for the better end of 2 years only to have finally been fixed this past October. As well as a slew of other things that somehow take years to fix, after players inform them on what's not working properly. 

Yeah, it finally got fixed, but it took 2 goddamn years of reminding DE that this problem existed in the first place. 

[IDarmithI]

i think based on the fact that (quick math, no real thinking) since the damage buff currently is either 150% or 0% it should be nerfed to 75% damage buff but no variability, otherwise it'll be a worse roar considering how roar can apply to allies, applies to slash/toxin/heat procs, and applies to abilities while eclipse only applies to the regular damage

at 75% it'd be only a bit better at roar for the current meta DOTS but it also doesn't apply to abilities or allies (without the augment)

[_Anise_]

On 2024-03-01 at 3:39 AM, Numerounius said:

what's happening for that half of the ability since they breezed over that one DR change in the devstream

I wonder why, I think its just as important as the damage portion, and I jokingly say they will make it 52% because I don't think it would be reliable as a damage reduction on its own that low.

squish frames are primarily where I would want to use this and DE sometimes have a nack for making their nerfed stuff unusable.

Edited March 3 by _Anise_

[spider_enigma]

On 2024-02-29 at 3:39 PM, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Here's an instance in which the toggle will be useful:

You're clearing trash enemies in Disruption where the DR will be useful like in Lua, Apollo. You don't need a damage buff on trash mobs because they are trash. You then toggle the damage buff when taking down the Demolyst. I'm not saying this will be useful for you, but I can see how it would be for others.

i didnt say it wouldnt be useful or even a problem, i was just correcting someone letting them know

and i totally agree with you

 

the defense need to get to 90% dr at 200% power str tho or it wont be helpful

Edited March 3 by spider_enigma

[Eliott_blackwolf]

On 2024-02-27 at 3:49 PM, [DE]Juice said:

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

I'm glad DE changed their mind, but even so, 30% is really low, eclipse doesn't serve as a team buff like roar, it works more as individual skill, in my opnion if they put eclipse at 100% or 75% damage or increase Rhino's Roar and helminth Roar would be a better solution.

[TrapperCZE]

can we expect further changes to mirage, since her 2) and 4) also interact with the light system ??
 

[Aevire]

On 2024-02-29 at 1:01 PM, PollexMessier said:

If eclipse's damage reduction was actually usable as a subsumed ability, than maybe that damage nerf is justifiable....

But unless you keep the DR at 90-95% that damage nerf is unacceptable.

75% will do next to nothing on the frames that actually need a good DR subsume to survive. We're just kindof completely lacking anything of the sort rn and it's kindof annoying. I'm sick of sticking pillage on literally everything to not die because I don't wanna use 3 mod slots and an arcane to have a functional shield gate build.

I think on its face Eclipse shouldn't be a better DR subsume than Null Star, which is a pure DR subsume that doesn't give you a damage buff.

There are two options I think make it still as good but less universal:

1. using this lower DR cap - making it a worse DR ability than Null Star but more easily buildable - and increasing the base damage increase of the ability to 40% would make it a better damage ability more competitive with Roar with incidental DR.

2. raising the DR cap back to 90% (it shouldn't be 95% if the cap for null star isn't higher) but lowering its base number to 30% so that a full 300% Power Strength is required for the full DR.

[L115A3_XB1]

7 hours ago, Aevire said:

I think on its face Eclipse shouldn't be a better DR subsume than Null Star, which is a pure DR subsume that doesn't give you a damage buff.

There are two options I think make it still as good but less universal:

1. using this lower DR cap - making it a worse DR ability than Null Star but more easily buildable - and increasing the base damage increase of the ability to 40% would make it a better damage ability more competitive with Roar with incidental DR.

2. raising the DR cap back to 90% (it shouldn't be 95% if the cap for null star isn't higher) but lowering its base number to 30% so that a full 300% Power Strength is required for the full DR.

Null star only  affects health though and doesnt work on shields and does cap at 90% , eclipse affects health and shields  , only DR now that will be 95% is shatter shield but it only protects from guns so is justifiable 

[migoq_aki]

0 information on whether this stays as is or may/will get changed on the devshort, kinda sad :c

[Numerounius]

1 hour ago, migoq_aki said:

0 information on whether this stays as is or may/will get changed on the devshort, kinda sad :c

They released a new one?