i feel like dante is too good ?

[Dunkelheit]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Theweedle:

Why is nuking rooms now suddenly an issue? Do you not realize gauss can nuke SP rooms just as well, if not faster? The only reason you are noticing this more now is because dantes nuke is a bit easier to use, and a lot of people are trying out the new frame.. its not even the best nuke in the game tbh.

1. it requires line of sight. enemies without any DoTs on them wont get nuked from tragedy.

2. It is extremely energy hungry. You need to slot on several sources of end game efficiency/energy sources to be able to nuke constantly. Most players dont actually have access to all of these things.

3. Without roar, or viral support, it quickly falls off at higher level steel path.

Meanwhile gauss is over here nuking and noone bats an eye. No line of sight required. Just be above redline and thermal sunder heat a few times, cold sunder once... BAM everything in 30meters is dead.

Dont even get me started on the new Nezha augment... Literally just press 4, wrathful advance, and BAM everything is 54 meters dies instantly. Dante cant even hold a candle to that.
 

 

1. to use his 4, he needs to press 3 twice. This is already enough to kill a lot of steel path mobs due to the slash nature of his 3. I have never noticed any problem with line of sight in a way that it becomes a problem.

2. I play him with 45% efficiency and have no energy problems. Granted, I build around it, but this is what Warframe is about. You need Equilibrium that is all. If you do not use the -efficiency strength mod, you don't need Equilibrium either. Since I don't need any defensive mods (lol), this is an absolute non-issue. Mod spots galore.

3. It uses slash, I have no problems against lvl 200 mobs in Steel path, where and why do you run into problems? Or are we talking about 9999, because I rarely try that out.

You say that Dante has problems with damage fall off and then you talk about Gauss? There are better nukers than Gauss.

New Nezha is baffling after they nerfed influence and how it interacts with some kinds of damage. Will be nerfed for sure and I agree.... the augment needs a nerf as well.

[JimothyStevens]

11 minutes ago, Corvid said:

No, you did not. You did not in any way address the fact that player power is exponentially stronger today than it was in the past (again, we went from a game where level 30 enemies were tough, to one where some players regularly fight enemies at level 9999), which is the exact opposite of what would happen if your statement about DE "always listening to the nerf crowd" were true.

It would be more accurate to say that the "no nerfs ever" portion of the community has a long history of going into hysterics over the slightest reduction to their power, claiming that whatever got nerfed is suddenly "useless" even when it literally does the exact same amount of damage as before the nerf. Considering the aforementioned increase in our average power levels, I find it hard to sympathise.

Except they don't do it on impulse. They literally have criteria that they have publicly stated for what it takes for a tactic to end up on the chopping block, and in all but the most extreme cases they tend to leave OP items untouched for months, if not years.

So which is it? Do DE nerf against the wishes of the community, or do they always listen to the "nerf crowd" which, like it or not, is part of that community.

I'll leave you to your spin

[JimothyStevens]

15 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I'd disagree, if you mean aoe in general then sure but if you're talking about aoe tenet/kuva weapons those are pretty dead and anything about them atm is copium 

This is an excellent point. Kuva Bramma as it existed before would not even be top tier now.

 

This is the point corvid is missing. These things get nerfed for no real good reason, then as the power increases overall throughout the game they become even more useless than they were after their unnecessary initial nerfs.

[Simeoff]

18 hours ago, Sir-Lorkhan said:

The frame isnt even 1 week old and they are already going to gut him. What about Nezha and his new augment? Maybe work on that, after all, now Nezha is MUCH MORE automated and dominant with his new augment. Gut him too then. Oh no you wont because god's forbid we nerf only fun stuff.

 

If they nerf Dante, I want a refund on all the forma I put on him then. After all, if he becomes trash, why should I pay for it?

So now if a warframe is good, it gets gutted in less than a week but if it's trash, it takes more than 6 years to buff him? What is warframe? A power fantasy or a real life simulator??

You have 3 posts saying the same thing

 

The way yall will ruin Both Nezha and Dante fans' fun tsk..

Edited April 3 by Simeoff

[Sir-Lorkhan]

Il y a 14 heures, Xenevier a dit :

i dont think dante's overguard for himself will be touched, since the goal is to make it less intrussive, so making him have less overguard wont help in that, it will just be a nerf to him. right now DE seems to be looking for a way to make him work well with others, so i dont think they will change how much overguard he gets for himself, at least not drastically

You want to make him work well with others. Then remove the shared overguard to teammates. Let Dante players be the greed little bastards we want and keep it for us.

[Sir-Lorkhan]

il y a 2 minutes, Simeoff a dit :

3 posts literally saying the same thing

 

The way yall will ruin Both Nezha and Dante fans' fun tsk..

OH but I want Nezha to be ruined. After all if they gut Dante, so should Nezha and all the nuking frames.

Dare saying Dante is OP is scandalous. Saryn, Mesa, Hildryn, bloody Octavia with no mods are more powerful than him. So yeah, you gut Dante? Gut them all to the ground

[Theweedle]

35 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

1. to use his 4, he needs to press 3 twice. This is already enough to kill a lot of steel path mobs due to the slash nature of his 3. I have never noticed any problem with line of sight in a way that it becomes a problem.

2. I play him with 45% efficiency and have no energy problems. Granted, I build around it, but this is what Warframe is about. You need Equilibrium that is all. If you do not use the -efficiency strength mod, you don't need Equilibrium either. Since I don't need any defensive mods (lol), this is an absolute non-issue. Mod spots galore.

3. It uses slash, I have no problems against lvl 200 mobs in Steel path, where and why do you run into problems? Or are we talking about 9999, because I rarely try that out.

You say that Dante has problems with damage fall off and then you talk about Gauss? There are better nukers than Gauss.

New Nezha is baffling after they nerfed influence and how it interacts with some kinds of damage. Will be nerfed for sure and I agree.... the augment needs a nerf as well.

My point is that his nuke is fine when you consider what other frames can do. If we were to nerf it under the pretense of it "being too strong" then at that point we would need to go back to several frames and nerf them too while we are at it. Why should dantes nuke in particular be targeted?

I think if anything needs to be adjusted with dante, it would be his overguard granting abilities, simply because it is the only aspect of his kit that is actually power creeping an aspect of the games mechanics.

 

Personally, I dont even think he needs ANY adjusting. He is popular because he is new. Everything he offers can already be achieved through other warframes. People running around nuking the map constantly and making everyone else pseudo invincible was ALREADY a thing.

Edited April 3 by Theweedle

[xXTheShaXx]

Please do not destroy this warframe, buff weaker ones instead, making a good warframe mediocre isn't good balancing.
With how things went with Eclipse I can already forsee Dante becoming useless in the near future

[Waeleto]

I'm really worried about him especially when i remember how much styanax and gyre were gutted by post-release nerfs

[Xenevier]

15 minutes ago, Theweedle said:

My point is that his nuke is fine when you consider what other frames can do. If we were to nerf it under the pretense of it "being too strong" then at that point we would need to go back to several frames and nerf them too while we are at it. Why should dantes nuke in particular be targeted?

I think if anything needs to be adjusted with dante, it would be his overguard granting abilities, simply because it is the only aspect of his kit that is actually power creeping an aspect of the games mechanics.

 

Personally, I dont even think he needs ANY adjusting. He is popular because he is new. Everything he offers can already be achieved through other warframes. People running around nuking the map constantly and making everyone else pseudo invincible was ALREADY a thing.

i think everyone agrees on that, nuking has been and will still be a thing in the game, its the fact that for dante its combined with a lot of survivability, and so no one ive seen is asking for his damage to go down but his overguard to be tweaked specifically

[Xenevier]

4 hours ago, Corvid said:

I looked before I posted that. The most active threads are the ones opposing nerfing him, and the most vocal players are the same.

To be frank, "high level content", at least as defined by the community right now, doesn't really matter to the discussion. Only a minority of players actually sticks with runs that long, and the game never requires it, so balance discussions should be focused on the level ranges that the game is actually built around.

Because, once again, Dante is the recent addition. Players aren't unaware of those other examples, they just know it's not as productive to talk about them when DE's attention isn't on them.

thank you finally someone says it, people take high level content to mean level cap steal path, but that is inherently in its nature meant to be impossible to kill and survive in the longer it goes on, if you want to balance a frame that works in level cap, then you have made a god in lower SP.

when i say late game i mean the late game most players can actually reach, not level 1,000+ circuit SP 

[Aruquae]

1 hour ago, Dunkelheit said:

I appreciate your reasonable and well argued posting. At least someone who knows how to debate.

This being said, let us not lose sight of the original problem: Dante is very capable of hogging mass kills after mass kills after mass kills and nothing will stop him. So it is easy for him to make 3 other players in the team useless by getting a very large amount of kills, the more mobs are around, the more apparent the problem becomes. He does not care if something needs to live long or be a certain faction, a problem that many other frames have and he has really no downsides. He uses slash as a tool which scales infinitely, so he does not fall behind in higher levels (did not play him higher than 200 though)

It is my Bramma argument all over again. It is unfun to play Warframe if you don't get any kills.

But even if you lose sight of his nuking ability that is room wide, his 60k overshield-without-any-effort makes the whole team invincible and knock-down immune as well. So he is the best offensive and best defensive frame at once?

I don't mind players having overpowered tools if they are somehow in check. Dante though is not. And people choose to not see this, because they love their tool too much. Take his offense or his defense, I don't mind either way, but both in one frame is way too much.

Oh thank goodness you weren't a random aggressive tenno... I enjoy finding people who can reason without shutting out logic

1 hour ago, Dunkelheit said:

This being said, let us not lose sight of the original problem: Dante is very capable of hogging mass kills after mass kills after mass kills and nothing will stop him. So it is easy for him to make 3 other players in the team useless by getting a very large amount of kills, the more mobs are around, the more apparent the problem becomes. He does not care if something needs to live long or be a certain faction, a problem that many other frames have and he has really no downsides. He uses slash as a tool which scales infinitely, so he does not fall behind in higher levels (did not play him higher than 200 though)

Damn, it's just the old AOE meta squished into the frame. I can see him being considered a hybrid frame, but even hybrids aren't a master of all, Dante on the other hand...

 

1 hour ago, Dunkelheit said:

But even if you lose sight of his nuking ability that is room wide, his 60k overshield-without-any-effort makes the whole team invincible and knock-down immune as well. So he is the best offensive and best defensive frame at once?

They just took old Wukong+old bramma and made it into an angry library

I see your reasoning, but i'm also confused how you guys see so much Dantes. Seriously, i've encountered like... 5? Not including myself of course

[Xenevier]

1 minute ago, Aruquae said:

Oh thank goodness you weren't a random aggressive tenno... I enjoy finding people who can reason without shutting out logic

Damn, it's just the old AOE meta squished into the frame. I can see him being considered a hybrid frame, but even hybrids aren't a master of all, Dante on the other hand...

 

They just took old Wukong+old bramma and made it into an angry library

I see your reasoning, but i'm also confused how you guys see so much Dantes. Seriously, i've encountered like... 5? Not including myself of course

maybe its just me but i see one or two every game basically, if you play any higher tier levels or planets in starchart you'll see him often(which is fine since he's new)

[Simeoff]

36 minutes ago, Sir-Lorkhan said:

OH but I want Nezha to be ruined. After all if they gut Dante, so should Nezha and all the nuking frames.

Dare saying Dante is OP is scandalous. Saryn, Mesa, Hildryn, bloody Octavia with no mods are more powerful than him. So yeah, you gut Dante? Gut them all to the ground

Yall are so dramatic

the "nerf" isn't even implemented yet for u to be acting so mad

[Halo]

Dante's nerf was inevitable. 

He came out too perfectly made, stronger than most frames that required full-on reworks or adjustments, tweaks, and augments to make them better. 

It's really a goddamn shame DE has to nerf him. 

But think of it this way, they did this to themselves for making him this great in the first place. 

Just remember Roar is next on that list, with Nourish right behind it, to get nerfed thanks to DE shooting themselves in the foot the the egregious Eclipse Helminth nerf.  

Watch them nerf the Overguard by capping it to some value far lower than players would be comfortable running (say 2k like companions get from Pack leader, except this would be crappy on a frame), remove overguard given to allies as a whole (which i could see as fine, since Kullervo is a good example), lowering his 4's total damage multipliers for Tragedy, make Noctua's channeling energy and drain per second more, reduce Noctua's damage overall making it a hinderance to use as opposed to being the great slash grimoire we'll never have for other frames, or even reduce the damage of his 3 overall. 

Sad days are ahead for Dante players, as well as the community as a whole. 

Edit: Need I remind Deep Archemedia is still missing... I know it's coming this week, but we hoped it would have been today...

Edited April 3 by Halo
WHER IS MAH DEEP

[NovaLP]

My best guess is that they'll prob put a light LoS check (like Dark Verse already has it) on Tragedy or something, it wouldn't destroy his damage output but hurt his kpm which would still be fine. But in return they need to adress the issues with overguard, since Dante has no energy regen for his team (unlike Styanax) he #*!%s players who run "on damage" effects for multiple reasons completely over.

Edited April 3 by NovaLP

[Trollocaustic]

And of course the nerf is instituted concurrently with the launch of Deep Archimedea. Way to treat your featured frame of the month.

[NovaLP]

15 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The issue with Dante is that he is oppressive and downright godlike in a way we've never seen before at lower levels, but that he falls off hard at high tier levels (300+).

Intrepid Stand Styanax, Cathode Current Gyre, Exothermic Ember and many more do the same thing that Dante does at lower levels. If you balance a frame that you get quite late around lower levels then you have no god damn idea how to balance stuff in a game. I'd understand a nerf based on lower levels if you get Dante in the first 10-20 hours of the game, but that is 100% not the case.

Other games have stuff like level and item sync to prevent exactly such things from happening but Warframe never bothered to implement such a system so thats how it is. High end builds and late game Warframes will be a straight up cheat code in low level content but thats not the Warframes fault and its fine, there is no reason to be competitive over low level content.

[vFlitz]

25 minutes ago, Halo said:

Dante's nerf was inevitable. 

He came out too perfectly made, stronger than most frames that required full-on reworks or adjustments, tweaks, and augments to make them better. 

It's really a goddamn shame DE has to nerf him. 

But think of it this way, they did this to themselves for making him this great in the first place. 

Just remember Roar is next on that list, with Nourish right behind it, to get nerfed thanks to DE shooting themselves in the foot the the egregious Eclipse Helminth nerf.  

Watch them nerf the Overguard by capping it to some value far lower than players would be comfortable running (say 2k like companions get from Pack leader, except this would be crappy on a frame), remove overguard given to allies as a whole (which i could see as fine, since Kullervo is a good example), lowering his 4's total damage multipliers for Tragedy, make Noctua's channeling energy and drain per second more, reduce Noctua's damage overall making it a hinderance to use as opposed to being the great slash grimoire we'll never have for other frames, or even reduce the damage of his 3 overall. 

Sad days are ahead for Dante players, as well as the community as a whole. 

Nerfing Noctua would be quite pointless because it's not worth using as is. That is not to say it's horrible, but there's just better guns out there and not using it has a whole lot of potential benefits associated with it

[NovaLP]

5 hours ago, moondog548 said:

Rebb was extreeeemely clear about the conditions that cause them on rare occassions to 'nerf' something, and that that wasn't the case now a mere week in, that they're happy that people like Dante and feel powerful,

They also said that Gyre was going to remain super powerfull when they nerfed her. Ah yes, looking at the stats for 2023 she looks rly powerfull over there.

[Halo]

12 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Nerfing Noctua would be quite pointless because it's not worth using as is. That is not to say it's horrible, but there's just better guns out there and not using it has a whole lot of potential benefits associated with it

Not wrong, it running some of the Tome Mods can be beneficial where useful, but then again, why bother when other sources of said buffs are better. 

As a whole for wep usage, it's not bad, but it's not something ground-breaking. 

[Silligoose]

12 hours ago, Merrcenary said:

or remove it

Most sense made in this thread.

12 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Why remove it ? frost was literally irrelevant before his overguard augment and styanax was on the way to be caliban 2.0, overguard is a fun mechanic that adds diversity to survivability, i'm honestly tired of the same health tanking setup or shieldgate setup

Frost wasn't irrelevant. Styanax was fine. Overguard is just a reused asset from enemies that aids in powercreep by making frames immune to some forms of cc. The "diversity" it brings, erodes gameplay mechanics to a greater extent by nullifying various threats.

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I remain completely mystified by what DE's vision of warframe overguard is for the long term. If you introduce something like this on top of everything else, you should have a plan for it.

The frames chosen to have overguard are bizarre. The hyper-sharing of overguard is bizarre. The high numbers and high regen rate of it are bizarre.

Like what is the point of it? Is it supposed to be new survival mechanic? But then why does its scaling suck? Is it meant to be a soft increase in general EHP? Then why doesn't everyone have access to it and why is it so trivial to replenish in huge quantities?

I'm just really confused about what it's place in our arsenal is meant to be. It's on track to replace shields and hp completely at this rate - if we keep putting hyper OG on everything, soon everyone will build like Dante - just ability mods.

DE likes reusing assets and it seems players are easily mesmerized by a "new" shiny, so low cost for greater income.

As with much released in this game, I doubt DE has a long term plan for overguard beyond what has been shown already.

[quxier]

  

22 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

23 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Do any of you remember such nerf speed previously?

I don't recall the exact time frame, but Styanax had two successive rounds of nerfs shortly after his release.

And he's still a fantastic frame to play, so I don't think there's any reason to be concerned.  If DE makes any adjustments to Dante that leave him ineffective or no longer fun, I'll be genuinely surprised.

22 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

22 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Styanax was on his way to be the new caliban before he got his augment

I hope you're being hyperbolic?  Styanax was a solid pick with a great kit well before his augment gave him even more team support; to compare him to Caliban seems excessive to say the least.

Comparing it to caliban seems too much but it get HUGE nerfs to "fun" aspect (yeah, subjectivity).

I used to play him how I want. Except 3rd I could play it in any order I wanted. I could even use other abilities during 4th. Those 2 changes affect me so much that I've almost stopped playing him. Before nerf he wasn't perfect but it was "kind of fun to play" frame. After nerfs it was 1,2,4 and repeat. Same for Dagath (with some difference). What's even worse is that they nerfed him but they haven't fixed (changed) stuff like little jumps.

Dante for me is like pre nerf STyanax (+ some stuffs). 224 few times, 234, 324 then either use 1st or 334.

21 hours ago, Xenevier said:

22 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Styanax was on his way to be the new caliban before he got his augment, he was literally nerfed to the point that he needed a bandaid augment and before he got it had nothing going for him except railjack (even that was only because of the combo of his 3 with subsumed nourish) same thing can be said for Gyre who was also nerfed to the point of needing a bandaid augment

you're objectively wrong, styanax has a 100% armor strip on his 2, around 7 energy regen at a normal build on 3, and an incredibly high amount of slash damage on 4 which passes through armor like butter as slash ignores all armor. styanax augment only gave him survivability, he was good without it, better with it

It's called "subjectivity". You may enjoy 124 gameplay but not all like it.

22 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Hmmm, Dante is good and easy to farm? thats a combination I havent seen in years. Might get him myself too actually before he gets ruined.

I get few main blueprints and other parts so it was easy to farm 2 Dantes (+2 weapons). Without luck it may takes more (main blueprints would take 1-2 hours I guess, I don't remember).

21 hours ago, Xenevier said:

bro its just to insane, just go into a lobby of any higher level content, doesnt have to be steel path, and compare the amount of dante(s) you see with gyre, or styanax, or qorvex or dagath ... 

I see Qorvex. I got even SS with me and another Qorvex <3.

I've seen 4 Dantes. Sometimes 2 (I'm leveling/testing him now). It's not weird.

19 hours ago, Xenevier said:

people are just really really fond of fear mongering for no reason

Maybe some people get affected differently than you? For me Grendel change were good - bad for others. Hydroid were not great for me - great for others. So on and so forth.

17 hours ago, Binket_ said:

He has an ability that gives everyone- including NPCs or Pets- well over 30k Overguard.

• Which can be expanded upon to automatically regenerate.

17 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Even if you didn't touch his Slash damage-- the Overguard is simply TOO MUCH for what it requires. (A single button press)

17 hours ago, Binket_ said:

If they reduce the amount given per cast (even if they don't touch the cap as much), it'll still incentivize Dante to cast his 2 more than a couple of times and than "whenever he needs a buff".

Overguard for other players maybe too much but for pets it's fine. I get a lot of Overguard while my Carrier get 0.

It requires 3 button presses not 1 (224). His 2nd is laughable weak. I can even get 0 Overguard before I finish casting 2nd.

Regeneration is not great as well.

17 hours ago, Voltage said:

To all these people saying that the sky is falling. Would you prefer the frame tweaked in 5 days, or become problematic for 5 years? DE isn't looking to obliterate Dante either, just a couple tweaks.

I much rather DE make tweaks quickly and iron them out shortly after release than something being left alone for multiple years like Maiming Strike, Primed Sure Footed, or Helminth and become a key problem with the game's balance and general gameplay.

Sure, change it now but do more runs. Don't just nerf and let it be weak for months with some bandaid mod.

15 hours ago, Binket_ said:

• Constant Energy Drain is a non-issue. There are quite literally DOZENS of mods to get around this.
  We have Equilibrium, Archon Stretch, Exodia Brave, Energy Nexus, Arcane Energize. 
  Hell, even Xata Invocation. A mod that fits quite nicely on Noctua.

Maybe year or two years ago I would that we have not enough energy sources/regenerators. We have many but those require specific setup which made the game worse. Now we have more. Sure not everything is perfect (Archon stretch is bad) but e.g. Energy nexus is fine little mod that helps enough.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But I'd probably just adjust it by giving it a cap for the group, like 50% of the personal cap, meaning in the avarage build you still have easy access to 20k+ OG for the group, which also regs on its own. And then add better buff tracking to him so we dont have to look among the other buffs.

+1

To be honest I would be fine with 10-25% for other players. 50-100% for pets (they need it more because they are stupid).

[Dunkelheit]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Aruquae:

I see your reasoning, but i'm also confused how you guys see so much Dantes. Seriously, i've encountered like... 5? Not including myself of course

Didn't see many of them either, but give it 2 weeks and they will start pouring out of all holes.

[DecadeX]

Dante's ceiling isn't that high. I think your original comment ignores things like Styanax also giving a massive amount of energy to the whole squad and himself which means his overguard building doesn't cost him that much energy in the long run. Rhino has the original Roar which is one of if not the best Damage buff in the game. Frost has a full strip and CC attached to his Overguard ability. Kullervo really wants a good melee with a guaranteed slash heavy attack, but can rip apart things like SP disruption. The other Overguard frames have upsides that Dante does not. Dante's weapon also personally is kinda underwhelming. I like it better as a statstick with the tome mods than as a way of killing by itself.

The bigger thing about Dante is he has a very high floor. He doesn't need a super specific or high investment build to perform well, and gets to do things like no line of sight nuking. It's not that he's the only frame that does that, but the other options like Gara for example need tools like Ceramic Dagger Incarnon and 3-5 forma builds with a specific Helminth ability to do it well and Dante can kinda just do it with basic mods and maybe a Molt Augmented at rank 30 with no forma invested. I don't think Dante needs a big nerf, but I could see him being annoying to be in a squad with particularly in the older defense maps which tend to be better for farming because of their small size.

Some of the other issues people have with him like stopping Chroma from building up Vex Armor are more existing issues that Dante having team Overguard in his base kit has exposed. The two other frames that can give loads of Overguard to the whole team got that ability via augment mods which don't generate as much buzz. Dante is the new shiny and therefore more popular however so the Chroma players are just having an abnormally rough time with an issue that's existed for a while. Realistically Chroma's hated defensive team support since overshield generation became possible and the better that got and with the introduction of overguard and overguard support he got worse and worse.