Magic tricks are never what they seem.

[trst]

1 hour ago, JimothyStevens said:

Except DE has a long history of doing just that. Popular thing to nerf so no one ever uses.

Except the only time they ever nerfed something to that extent it was with melee spin builds. All the other nerfs that players like to claim to have "ruined" something were never so impactful. That is unless said players were the type that can only put in the absolute minimum amount of effort and not a touch more.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb trst:

Except the only time they ever nerfed something to that extent it was with melee spin builds. All the other nerfs that players like to claim to have "ruined" something were never so impactful. That is unless said players were the type that can only put in the absolute minimum amount of effort and not a touch more.

What about ember? Her usage stats contradict you. 

[Berzerkules]

18 minutes ago, trst said:

Except the only time they ever nerfed something to that extent it was with melee spin builds. All the other nerfs that players like to claim to have "ruined" something were never so impactful. That is unless said players were the type that can only put in the absolute minimum amount of effort and not a touch more.

Memeing strike was only one small part of a huge melee change in update 26. That one mod was necessary collateral damage to better melee as a whole. 

 

[trst]

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

What about ember? Her usage stats contradict you. 

In her case it just happens that apparently most players can't be bothered to put any effort into playing the game. It's only in WF that a frame could go from being viable in nothing but speedrunning low level content to viable throughout the entire game could ever result in decreased play rates.

But even then it's hard to say her numbers mean "no one ever uses" especially when her Prime has for some reason been unavailable for over two years now.

50 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Memeing strike was only one small part of a huge melee change in update 26. That one mod was necessary collateral damage to better melee as a whole. 

I'm aware, but the nerfing of that mod pretty much killed the viability of pure spin builds. Far better for melee and the game itself but still one of the only "playstyles" DE killed.

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, trst said:

I'm aware, but the nerfing of that mod pretty much killed the viability of pure spin builds. Far better for melee and the game itself but still one of the only "playstyles" DE killed.

I believe that the change to range, combo and the fact that it went through walls also played a huge part of killing spin to win. Changing the mod was one thing but there were several other factors at play there as well.

[Famecans]

Sevagoth the Forma Eater

[2wentyThre3]

Le 03/04/2024 à 06:03, JimothyStevens a dit :

Except DE has a long history of doing just that.

And they just did it... I haven't fully tallied all the nerfs up yet but I just looked into the "50%" nerf on Overguard. Spoiler it isn't equivalent of 50% it actually costs 300% more of everything to generate the same results as before.

Cast strings, amounts and times pre and post nerf:

2,2,4 - 2,2,4 // Maximum OG in 6 casts costing 310 energy in total and approx 5 seconds cast time.

2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 // Maximum OG in 18 casts costing 930 energy in total and approx 20 seconds cast time.

(128% Duration 45% efficiency 175% Range 343% Strength) Build was not changed after Nerf.

Like I said, I haven't even examined the other stuff yet, but Overguard has been gutted.

[UnstarPrime]

19 minutes ago, 2wentyThre3 said:

Like I said, I haven't even examined the other stuff yet, but Overguard has been gutted.

In your opinion, is the reduction severe enough that he's going to have difficulty surviving?  I'm curious because in my previous play sessions with Dante I never came close to losing my Overguard.  So at least from my experience, as long as he's still got enough Overguard to comfortably stay alive, I'll be happy.  How is your build performing in your missions?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-04-02 at 5:22 PM, 2wentyThre3 said:

I've spent over a month in focussed preparation for the last update. All my spare time - of which I have a lot, granted - spent on Dante.

I saved plat. Traded for it. Bought some. Farmed forma, new Rivens, watched Devstream 177 multiple times for clues to the correct path for building Dante. Tested a bit, experimented. Time in Sim. Multiple weapon loadouts.

And now, all my resources spent, I could be looking at rebuilding him at best and binning him off at worst. I had a secondary frame and now it's at threat.

I was maining Sevagoth before this... And my experience as a Sevagoth main was that people referred to him as the Gloom Helminth. I love Sevagoth - He got help in his augments. I love how complex he is when you actually understand his kit. He has 7 spells. Just like Dante. And the community called him the Gloom Helminth, some still do. What's my point? Sevagoth is still largely ignored because of how he was treat and how people view him. Some people had their hands burned by how he felt before augments and won't touch him again. Despite how good he is, people will never know and will most likely not take my word...

Dante works out of the box. It was literally like magic. Dante appeared and there it was, a new playstyle that just felt like everything I've wanted. No augments needed. Now we've had a nerf announced. Crippling his build now for a fix we will be sold later perhaps? He is the exact opposite as Sevagoth from a community and mechanical standpoint. But Dante could end up with the same fate if this nerf goes too far. 7 abilities. Nerfed, with maybe one good ability left? A Warframe stands to possibly be shelved because of bad management of his identity. And a Helminth ability that's more useful on other frames than it's progenitor. Looking at you Nezha.

This leaves an incredibly bad taste in my mouth DE. I want you to know this. Being made to feel regret even before we know what the nerf holds. Feeling regret for investing so much in such a small period of time and then being told it can be changed so quickly.

This really blows... Even if I have it all wrong and the nerf is minor, I've still been made to feel like this. I imagine others have too. It's not right.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[EDIT:] Below are my findings for Dante Pre and post nerf with my findings based upon my build.

Overguard generation using Light Verse and Triumph.
Cast strings, amounts and times pre and post nerf:

2,2,4 - 2,2,4 // Maximum OG in 6 casts costing 310 energy in total and approx 5 seconds cast time.

2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 - 2,2,4 // Maximum OG in 18 casts costing 930 energy in total and approx 20 seconds cast time.

(128% Duration 45% efficiency 175% Range 343% Strength) Build was not changed after Nerf.

It's us players that cause the nerfs. We provide the feedback to DE in the workshop and the devs then adjust. It's more rare for the devs to nerf stuff on their own. Even still, the nerfs are never so big that the investment into the frame or weapons is wasted. It's only when the change makes absolute sense (AFKong, Skynax, Borderless Whipclaw Khora, etc), and, usually, the players already knew the nerf was going to arrive and secretly know it should've been nerfed. 

[2wentyThre3]

il y a 2 minutes, UnstarPrime a dit :

How is your build performing in your missions?

I haven't had chance to check yet. I might do that now before mathing out the rest of the changes just to see...

Honestly it already feels bad enough in the Similacrum already. I can still nuke out in the open but it doesn't feel right having to spend so much on 2,2,3 spam. Overguard setup and maintenance now feels like it will interrupt all other functions meaning it will make the frame seem more clunky overall. Dante was smooth as butter before. OG generation probably needed to take a hit, but 50% in number form has cascaded into more than an overall 50% change on my build.

I think the LOS changes might actually be the thing that affects him least. But Noctua feels off for some reason too, I need to make sure it's interacting with my Arcanes properly still. The jury is definitely out on Wordwarden being upped by 20% though. It was already a terrible ability in gameplay standards, but leaning on it more seems a really bad decision. They want less automation yet buff his "Set and forget" abilities while nerfing his active ones. I'm really at a loss.

I'll go solo some SP Alchemy for an hour or so and see if I adjust or if it just feels bad.

[2wentyThre3]

Il y a 2 heures, UnstarPrime a dit :

How is your build performing in your missions?

With major issues. LOS changes have caused bugs with Dark Verse - Patch notes state Final Verse and all sub spells would be subject to LOS with no mention at all of Dark Verse. Dark Verse now no longer hits enemies through walls, they can't be primed. Needless to say this on top of everything else makes these nerfs HUGE.

However. I have taken to the old Tweet machine and have seen the Warframe account has put this out:

There is a major problem with the way Line of Sight is implemented on Dante at distances and on ragdolls in Hotfix 35.5.3. We are hotfixing again tomorrow to address this. These are not final changes, however, and we will continue improving from here.

Now... Does this mean Dark Verse will be restored or does it mean there is some other interaction they aren't happy with? I have no idea. But there are other things I have noticed. I will not report on them yet should they be subject to change as of tomorrows update.

However, nothing good has come of any of this. I am beginning to think all of my initial fears for this Warframe are coming true...

Edited April 5 by 2wentyThre3