Are all new warframes dead on arrival ?

[Waeleto]

So Dante's release was amazing, he was smooth and felt good to play and in a span of a week he got absolutely GUTTED in both the things he did.

When we look back at the past 2 release which are Dagath and Qorvex we can now see so many problems and flaws in their kits, they're not bad they are just as average as it gets, both of them didn't get a single change and are shaping to be very forgotten.

So we have 2 kinds of releases, one that is an amazing release and immediately gets nerfed, the other is a mid release that gets completely forgotten by bot DE and the playerbase (probably until they get a band aid augments and that too will be nerfed) so in theory i shouldn't be hyped about any new warframe ?

If we know for a fact that if the warframe releases good they will be nerfed to the ground and if they release mid/bad/unsatisfying to play they won't get any attention doesn't this mean that all new warframes are now dead on arrival ?

[Stormandreas]

Yea... Dante isn't dead.

His Overguard is now in line with other frames that generate overguard, and his damage numbers have NOT BEEN REDUCED contrary to popular belief.

All that's happened, is his 334 now has a LoS check. That's it. Yes, the LoS check needs some fixing, I'll agree to that. No, it does not "KiLl DaNtE". I ran an hour survival with 3 friends. I outkilled all of them by a minimum of 5x still. Dante is absolutely fine.

Before anyone mentions Octavia, she needs LoS with Mallet.
Mirage? Prism needs LoS. Explosive Ledgermen does not though I'd imagine that would be an absolute nightmare to get working right. Enemies DO need LoS of the gem she makes to be attracted to it.
Saryn? Yea, Miasma could do with an LoS check perhaps. It would be inconsiquential in SP seen as Spores+Dual Ichor is much stronger.

Edited April 5 by Stormandreas

[Pakaku]

If they don't refund the people who spent actual money on what ultimately got taken away from them this quickly, then that's a major problem and DE should be careful or fix the situation if they still care about people buying new content

Otherwise, I usually expect changes to new content in the first few weeks, so I'm not exactly surprised. All I can say is I haven't played him myself, so I'm trying to ignore the complaints until I play him for myself. Maybe it will turn out the nerfed version is still perfectly fine for my needs, or maybe I just won't care enough about his playstyle either way.

13 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

When we look back at the past 2 release which are Dagath and Qorvex we can now see so many problems and flaws in their kits, they're not bad they are just as average as it gets, both of them didn't get a single change and are shaping to be very forgotten.

Out of the two, Dagath became a new favourite of mine. She feels fine if not overpowered herself (can't slow things with her 1 if her 2 keeps deleting them) and I think the problem and why she might have gone unnoticed is because of her mission and the awful dojo requirement. I wouldn't have even gone through with it if I hadn't been able to test-run her in the Circuit

Meanwhile I just felt bored trying to play Qorvex, or felt like he was like a rehash of Oberon but lacking something.

[Chewarette]

12 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

All that's happened, is his 334 now has a LoS check. That's it. Yes, the LoS check needs some fixing, I'll agree to that. No, it does not "KiLl DaNtE". I ran an hour survival with 3 friends. I outkilled all of them by a minimum of 5x still. Dante is absolutely fine.

Let me guess, camping in a room where LoS is not a parameter to account for ?

Can you tell us the result of your experiment in Albrecht Laboratories' Exterminate or Alchemy ?

[Waeleto]

28 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

His Overguard is now in line with other frames that generate overguard, and his damage numbers have NOT BEEN REDUCED contrary to popular belief

this has to be a joke

[WindShadow970]

14 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Yea... Dante isn't dead.

14 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

His Overguard is now in line with other frames that generate overguard, and his damage numbers have NOT BEEN REDUCED contrary to popular belief

I agree that he isn't dead however the nerfs are quite clearly short sighted:

All Dante has for survivability is Overguard, contrast that with the rest of the overguard roster who have either strong CC (Rhino and Frost), sustain (Kullervo and Styanax), above average mobility(Kullervo) or just outright better base durability stats (all of them). Dante needs potent overguard to live in Warframe's current environment. Also Light Verse was already weak on its own and they made it worse for reasons.

His damage is unchanged true, but putting it out got way worse for no real reason since Tragedy still needs DoT setup which does require LoS. Slapping another check on top is not needed. We don't need to dwell on the LoS check itself, we all know it's terrible.

I'll still play him because I enjoy him mechanically but the nerfs were definitely not well thought through.

[Waeleto]

Dante's overguard requires 18 casts to be capped make what you will with that info 

[Stormandreas]

9 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Dante's overguard requires 18 casts to be capped make what you will with that info 

It does not.... There's a "overguard generation on kills" mechanic for a reason.

[KIREEK]

Oh yes, i expect..... Jade to be nerfed, that is the next warframe right? You know it's comming.

Edited April 5 by KIREEK

[Stormandreas]

11 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

I agree that he isn't dead however the nerfs are quite clearly short sighted:

All Dante has for survivability is Overguard, contrast that with the rest of the overguard roster who have either strong CC (Rhino and Frost), sustain (Kullervo and Styanax), above average mobility(Kullervo) or just outright better base durability stats (all of them). Dante needs potent overguard to live in Warframe's current environment. Also Light Verse was already weak on its own and they made it worse for reasons.

His damage is unchanged true, but putting it out got way worse for no real reason since Tragedy still needs DoT setup which does require LoS. Slapping another check on top is not needed. We don't need to dwell on the LoS check itself, we all know it's terrible.

I'll still play him because I enjoy him mechanically but the nerfs were definitely not well thought through.

The overguard is fine. Many seem to forget Dante is also completely invulnerable when casting his 2, or 224, which adds to the survivability.

Using only 224 for overguard is a mistake. Use 224, get the buff, then go ham killing. You'll keep your overguard. I've never had an issue keeping my overguard up by doing so and just recasting the buff when needsbe.

It's also funny to me that Dark Verse has an LoS check, yet no-one batted an eye. The reason being, 334s LoS check is from Dantes waist, not from the camera position, like how Dark Verse does it.

[Waeleto]

5 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

It does not.... There's a "overguard generation on kills" mechanic for a reason.

Then that makes styanax's and frost's overguard leagues ahead of dante

[WindShadow970]

1 minute ago, Stormandreas said:

The overguard is fine. Many seem to forget Dante is also completely invulnerable when casting his 2, or 224, which adds to the survivability.

No one is forgetting that, it's just that you're animation locked for the duration of that invulnerability unlike say a Rhino or Yareli for instance, which for most aggrieved people is "after this animation ends this thing gets shredded off immediately," which for the cost it asks of you is a horrible feeling.

8 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Using only 224 for overguard is a mistake. Use 224, get the buff, then go ham killing. You'll keep your overguard. I've never had an issue keeping my overguard up by doing so and just recasting the buff when needsbe

That's the thing, the Overguard regen is just about good enough for maintaning Overguard but not for buildup. If you want to leverage Overguard gate for survivability, sure that's fine but those who want a bulwark of Overguard to work with it's no good.

5 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

It's also funny to me that Dark Verse has an LoS check, yet no-one batted an eye.

No one batted an eye because it was a sensible balancing measure on Tragedy's potential.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Oh yes, i expect..... Jade to be nerfed, that is the next warframe right? You know it's comming.

"way ahead of you, Tenno! we already nerfed jade while she's still a WIP!" - DE probably.

seriously though, this place always becomes a dumpsterfire the moment someone get's a minor tweak.

[Waeleto]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

minor tweak.

Define minor tweak, especially when it comes to dante

[(PSN)robotwars7]

10 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Define minor tweak, especially when it comes to dante

adding LoS check is still a minor tweak. does it have massive ramifications? it can do, but it is still one tweak. 

[Waeleto]

Just now, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

adding LoS check is still a minor tweak. does it have massive ramifications? it can do, but it is still one tweak. 

Since warframe player reading comprehension strikes again let's break down dante's nerfs:

"Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Final Verse’s “Triumph” from 5000 to 2000 at Max Rank."
"Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Light Verse from 500 to 250 at Max Rank (can still be modified with Ability Strength)."

This is a 60% nerf to his OG generation, he needs to cast 18 abilities to reach max OG making him worse than Styanax/Frost
This 60% nerf ALONE isn't a minor tweak but let's keep going

"Final Verse’s “Tragedy” now only affects enemies within Line of Sight." 

This is straight up the worst possible nerf that could've happened to his dmg it has been CRIPPLED, they literally state " we recognized that it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed" and proceeded to gut his dmg, also if you've played warframe and experienced multiple tiles (which i very much doubt) you'd have realized how INCONSISTANT LoS is in warframe

Furthermore, even Megan stated yesterday during prime time that they're not happy with dante atm so what are you trying to defend or sugarcoat here ?
Not to mention, Rebecca said that there would be a dev blog about dante BEFORE the nerf patch comes out so we can have the "dante conversation" which never happened

As a last note, there have been 30+ pages of feedback, discussion and suggestions on the forums alone BEFORE the dante nerf came out, needless to say the changes that happened contradicts every single complain or suggestion people had for Dante to the point that some people who asked for the nerf voiced their opinion on how the LoS nerf should be reverted.

Stop blindly agreeing to everything and trying to sugarcoat this situation.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

6 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Yea... Dante isn't dead.

His Overguard is now in line with other frames that generate overguard, and his damage numbers have NOT BEEN REDUCED contrary to popular belief.

All that's happened, is his 334 now has a LoS check. That's it. Yes, the LoS check needs some fixing, I'll agree to that. No, it does not "KiLl DaNtE". I ran an hour survival with 3 friends. I outkilled all of them by a minimum of 5x still. Dante is absolutely fine.

Before anyone mentions Octavia, she needs LoS with Mallet.
Mirage? Prism needs LoS. Explosive Ledgermen does not though I'd imagine that would be an absolute nightmare to get working right. Enemies DO need LoS of the gem she makes to be attracted to it.
Saryn? Yea, Miasma could do with an LoS check perhaps. It would be inconsiquential in SP seen as Spores+Dual Ichor is much stronger.

You know DE’s going to put the same awful LoS from Tragedy on all of those, right?
maybe before demanding they put LoS on those abilities you wait and see if DE’s even going to fix Tragedies LoS.

 

2 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

"way ahead of you, Tenno! we already nerfed jade while she's still a WIP!" - DE probably.

seriously though, this place always becomes a dumpsterfire the moment someone get's a minor tweak.

Because we’ve gone like 2 years without major nerfs to a frame.

thats 2 years of cycling out old players for new players that never experienced this before.

[SneakyErvin]

No idea why Dagath gets brought up so often. She's been one of those frames that have been great out the door without any need for a tweak or buff. We've had few bad frame releases overall.

Yareli, Calibum and Corvex are really those that stand out, but Yareli is currently a massive murderer thanks to the augment. Qorvex is solid but could use something to help his skills kill.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No idea why Dagath gets brought up so often. She's been one of those frames that have been great out the door without any need for a tweak or buff. We've had few bad frame releases overall.

Yareli, Calibum and Corvex are really those that stand out, but Yareli is currently a massive murderer thanks to the augment. Qorvex is solid but could use something to help his skills kill.

Literally all Dagath is is her 4, her 2 to set up for her 4 and her 3 to not die.

shes not exactly a stellar frame. Literally only gets a pass because her 4 deals really good damage. But she really doesn’t offer anything outside of that.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Literally all Dagath is is her 4, her 2 to set up for her 4 and her 3 to not die.

shes not exactly a stellar frame. Literally only gets a pass because her 4 deals really good damage. But she really doesn’t offer anything outside of that.

She's like most damage frames, not much to offer a group but very able to handle her own. Kullervo is the same, he even offers less to a group because he doesnt provide viral nor an easily managable slow even. Both are strong as Hel none the less. I prefer to replace Dagath's 3 with Fractured Blast, works well with the range investments and strength, gives her other options to survive and gives something to the group if you are in one. And on Kullervo I replace Ukko with augmented Roar, which gives a nice buff to the group and knocks enemies down and makes them easier to crit and hitting others for less.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

She's like most damage frames, not much to offer a group but very able to handle her own. Kullervo is the same, he even offers less to a group because he doesnt provide viral nor an easily managable slow even. Both are strong as Hel none the less. I prefer to replace Dagath's 3 with Fractured Blast, works well with the range investments and strength, gives her other options to survive and gives something to the group if you are in one. And on Kullervo I replace Ukko with augmented Roar, which gives a nice buff to the group and knocks enemies down and makes them easier to crit and hitting others for less.

Kullervo can kill things in a large area. Dagath kills in a straight line. Kullervo can also combine his 3 and 4 to create a very high damage AOE. Dagath can only kill in a straight line.

[Xzorn]

To answer the topic question. Around 4 in 5 frames were DOA for an endurance runner back in the day.
That is to say they didn't scale well or another frame already did their job better.

Frames also worked entirely differently at higher levels. Almost no Ability AoE was functional. Garuda, Mag and similar were exceptions.
Abilities that scaled with weapons damage worked well.

Now that enemies are made of paper you just need one good damage amp in a team and the rest is don't die.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Kullervo can kill things in a large area. Dagath kills in a straight line. Kullervo can also combine his 3 and 4 to create a very high damage AOE. Dagath can only kill in a straight line.

Same area in practicality unless you wanna rely on his 4 for AoE. I rather use roar, wrathful and a influence melee at that point, since all of that allows me to stay mobile. The trade off is that Kullervo's cone results in instant killing, Dagath aswell since her Doom keeps spreading, so no need for constant prepping, so can just horse around mostly.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Same area in practicality unless you wanna rely on his 4 for AoE. I rather use roar, wrathful and an influence melee at that point, since all of that allows me to stay mobile. The trade off is that Kullervo's cone results in instant killing, Dagath aswell since her Doom keeps spreading, so no need for constant prepping, so can just horse around mostly.

Kullervos and Dagaths effective areas aren’t even remotely close. And Dagath requires her 1 to spread doom. And her 1 takes forever to actually cast outwards. Kullervo is “3,1, everything in the room is dead”

[helioth137]

don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of this discussion but i think we can all unite on this point:

big, gameplay influencing changes 1 week after release, when they have an internal testing system, are simply quite annoying/ dissapointing to a lot of people,
because people like having new toys, and then to have the toy taken away & "fixed" so it can't do that cool thing anymore is... well, the reason we have a 17 page thread of complaints. 

I just wish [DE] would take even more time with their updates so this sort of drama doesn't happen, it's honestly bad for the company and people's trust in it. 

A lot of money comes as we know from the microtransactions and if people don't feel they can trust their investments in frames, guns, and so on, they won't bother putting so much effort in anymore. 

That said, I made a video on the topic and i honestly believe these changes in the grand scheme of things are for the good of the game, just ALL warframe and weapons need to receive these changes, as "S Tier Frames" Like Saryn, Volt, e.t.c e.t.c, who Dante & Nezha were starting to compete with, still don't have line of sight checks at all. 

In my opinion this was handled a little bit too hastily & harshly and the nerfs should have been more gradual. 

Even if players only did 20% of damage through line of sight, to incentivise really being visible and coming out of cover for a moment instead of "cheesing" I think everyone would have found that much more acceptable than this complete change. 

Thanks for hearing me out. 

Here's the vid: