Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[LordOfKenpo]

@[DE]Pablo Can I recommend a replacement change for Dante:

 

1) For the OG issue, make Triumph only apply OG to Dante and reset the values to the original number. I don't see an issue with light verse still applying to allies as it gives a small buff but the amount given shouldn't hurt the build that need to take damage to play too much

2) For Tragedy, if you feel there really needs to be a change, remove LOS and just reduce the range to 75%. Dante is mage themed and mages tend to do AOEs. It feels bad to effectively remove the dps ability from a dps frame as badly as you did and this while weaker definitely wouldn't feel nearly as bad.

3) For Pageflight I understand the change made here wasn't listed, but it was a cool effect and I don't think anyone was upset about it so I think it should have just been added to the description instead of removing the effect.

Overall Dante was a super fun frame, probably my favorite in the game, but he just doesn't feel fun anymore and most players are going to never use him anymore after the changes you made. I know when I build something, I want users to enjoy it and use it, I can't imagine you don't feel the same way so maybe you can work with the community here to find a good balance even though most of us don't feel there was anything wrong to begin with other than OG's interaction with other frame.

[Azlelium]

Will there be a way for people who spent money on the frame to get refunds either in the form of in game platinum or irl refunds?

This feels extremely scummy as a seller of a product and has left a bad taste in many consumer's mouths and many are justified in their wants for a refund.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 1 minute, Museigen a dit :

Wrong. It's an ability that needs eneblers. It needs two casts of another ability, and its damage depends on status. So, yeah, the ability is not that simple. You didn't play him and it shows.

Oh no you need to spend 100 total energy (unmodded) and 2s cast time (negated by cast speed shards) to do 6500 slash AoE that will also detonate DoTs on top.
It's basically the strongest AoE nuke with additionals effects.

So yes, I don't need to test it because it's already a ridiculous AoE ignoring the additional effects, the cast requirement are ridiculously low for the outcome.

[nicolajtheking2]

1 minute ago, Obitas said:

If you dont remove the LoS requirement for Tragedy and are adamant on your decision to keep it I hope to god that you add the same requirement to ALL AOE SPELLS THAT ARE DISRUPTIVE. No more Saryn spores and miasma, no more Mirage 2, no more Volt 4. Either you remove it from Tragedy or you change them all no in between. You already ruined all relevant CC from frames so you might aswell ruin all relevant aoe spells from frames too.
This whole hotfix was a joke.

I agree, and the joke is not even good...

I'm not mad at DE, I am FURIOUS at them for doing this within A WEEK of his release, they did him dirty just like styanax and probably jade too for all I know!

The first truly fun warframe in years and they kill him in a week...

[Stelthmastr]

4 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Yes of course but saryn who passively kills level cap enemies while armor stripping and provides insane weapon platforming buffs is balanced

Saryn also has low survivability outside of shield gating or spamming Molt. She makes up for it in high damage. Nerf Saryn and what is she going to be used for?

Edited April 5 by Stelthmastr

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

I can understand if Line of Sight issues have been on the back-burner for ages now and by looking into this it means they can finally in some way be addressed, but there's one key factor missing here; Dante powers don't "have to" rely on Line of Sight. That's just a rule that someone decided at some point, but realistically it doesn't make sense for 2 reasons.

First off, the frame is obviously inspired by "Wizards", masters of the magical arts and the metaphysical. In other words they constantly do things that defy physics.

Secondly, his powers come from Noctua. A book written in Void Tongue which gives Dante access to Void-Like powers. Whispers in the Walls literally just showed us how contact with the Void and The Wall of Bone tore through reality and turned half the lab into a Void Hellscape. So even the Lore is stating that Dantes powers shouldn't be hindered by physics. Such as a Line of Sight issue.

I said it in a previous post but I'll say again, I wouldn't be asking for Dante to just be reverted to what he was. He needs a few adjustments for balance, the 3 I suggested were cutting his Range, increasing his Power Cost, and/or removing his ability to give anyone else Overguard. Even applying some version of all 3 of those at the same time would seem far more fair and balanced than "playing Line of Sight Lotto".

Please consider changing course and adjusting him properly. Right now everyone is angry because you's are doubling down on a bad, and unnecessary, idea.

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

Did you ask lukinu if that's the case? I'd bet they'd say that Saryn isn't balanced.

Personally, I'd argue Saryn is a huge #*!%ing balance problem. I carried an elite deep archimedea run using solely Saryn Prime yesterday. I'm aware of how stupidly strong she is.

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

1 minute ago, Museigen said:

"Adding a line of sight check to a nuke wasn't a mistake. The real mistake was in releasing Dante--and many other nuke frames--without a functioning system."
You quite literally said that he had to have line of sight to his nuke. I'm saying that indirectly he already had. Because this is not an one buttom nuke like the other exemples you gave.

I know how this works. You're fussing over semantic interpretations of facts that we both understand and agree on. If I wanted to be a dink, I could argue back that you're saying "you have to see enemies to start Saryn's chain, so she's got a line of site check on her spores."

But frankly, I don't care about winning some argument over definitions, so please, pay attention to the rest of the post. Frames deleting out of sight enemies, even with a single step of setup, is still terrible for the game's design. A line of site check on this ability is meant to aid with this problem, and does.

[FallinJaded]

4 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

As I've just answered to someone else in this post, I don't need to play a Warframe to judge an ability that is literally just damage in AoE.
There is nothing to understand or learn about it, it's simple enough to know exactly how it works just by looking at the numbers.

You don't have Dante, and your main is Saryn. Nobody is surprised with what you're saying.

[Crackensan]

1 minute ago, Stelthmastr said:

Saryn also has low survivability outside of shield gating or spamming Molt. She makes up for it in high damage. Nerf Saryn and what is she going to be used for?

If you put Gloom on her and have your Spores running in any fashion, it's actually impossible to kill her.
Gloom Life on Hit/Steal works with the Spore Damage; considering it doesn't require LOS (Nor does Miasma so far as I know to prime Spore'd enemies) you are effectively invincible because someone would have to deal your entire EHP in one shot to kill you, after shield gating.

Which, as Brozime has demonstrated, is effectively impossible unless you actually stop paying attention to anything.

[Museigen]

13 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Oh no you need to spend 100 total energy (unmodded) and 2s cast time (negated by cast speed shards) to do 6500 slash AoE that will also detonate DoTs on top.
It's basically the strongest AoE nuke with additionals effects.

So yes, I don't need to test it because it's already a ridiculous AoE ignoring the additional effects, the cast requirement are ridiculously low for the outcome.

And the enabler have LoS and is a cone. Yes, you didn't play Dante and it SHOWS. You are out of depth here. Strongest nuke? lmao

Edited April 5 by Museigen

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, Stelthmastr said:

Saryn also has low survivability outside of shield gating or spamming Molt. She makes up for it in high damage. Nerf Saryn and what is she going to be used for?

have you thought about the fact that shieldgating makes her immortal and is literally safer than overguard in higher levels ? 

Don't want to do shieldgating ? sure put gloom on her and make a health tanking setup since she has higher armor and health than the warframe who bring gloom himself

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, Tecstasy said:

Honestly, guys speak with your wallets.Start initiating Chargebacks on all your warframe purchases this past week. Does DE know what happens when a certain threshold of chargebacks happen.

lemme just check my notes on what happens....

oh right.

your account gets banned for negative plat.

by all means. go do this guys! really stick it to them! show them the warframe community is not to be messed with and that the community knows better than the devs! 

[Arbitrary]

16 minutes ago, Crackensan said:

But Gyre can do this: https://new.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1bwb38m/in_honor_of_dantes_nerf_here_is_gyre_nuking_a/
Octavia; Saryn; Thermal Sunder; NONE of these require line of Sight but the BRAND NEW Warframe gets beaten over the head with a LOS Check?

Rotorswell is still LoS based, just the location from which it checks LoS is different. Discharges check the LoS around the enemy they originate from.
Mallet is also LoS. It needs direct LoS from it to enemies.
Thermal Sunder should be nerfed too.

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

3 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

lmao thank you, i hadnt seen this before, and it's fantastic. <3

[Darazio]

DE please for the love of Lotus. LISTEN TO YOUR COMMUNITY! This is a really bad nerf to this frame. Just bring him back to his original state and delete Los. 

[CoffeeSorcerer69]

Revert the Dante Nerfs.  You have hundreds of posts giving you feedback to revert the nerfs or to at least remove Line of Sight from Tragedy.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 7 minutes, Waeleto a dit :

Yes of course but saryn who passively kills level cap enemies while armor stripping and provides insane weapon platforming buffs is balanced

Did I say Saryn was balanced ?
Absolutely not. She has never been balanced and it's the reason she is my most played.

Saryn shred through literally any content in the game without much effort, and many nerfs would be welcome, starting with line of sight check for Miasma.

I think all AoE nuke warframe should get this treatment to make the game more enjoyable, but it sadly won't happen when we see the reaction of the mass on the Dante deserved nerf (I would call it a fix, more than a nerf).

[MetalMechabolic]

5 minutes ago, Azlelium said:

Will there be a way for people who spent money on the frame to get refunds either in the form of in game platinum or irl refunds?

This feels extremely scummy as a seller of a product and has left a bad taste in many consumer's mouths and many are justified in their wants for a refund.

Second.  I was going to whale on this game but what's the point if anything remotely fun gets "a slight tweak".  I whale on gameplay things, cosmetics are not even on my radar most of the time.

[Nero.DMC]

1 hour ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Why not remove the  LoS check all together, if you think he was too strong just reduce his range... LoS is BAD, Literally nobody likes it.

beside the point that no one even tested the changes, anyone spending 5 minutes with the changes would have realized it was unnaceptable (after you guys repeatedly told us you were taking your time, a huge lie most of us wont easily forget) 
 

The LoS makes 0 sense, its an awful way of nerfing something, if you think something is too strong lets say by a 20%, your data tells you its stronger than it should be by a certain amount and i go ahead and ask you: "How much did you nerf it by adding LoS to it?" Would you be able to provide an answer? the answer to that is obviusly no, because LoS is a S#&amp;&#036; way of balancing.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 6 minutes, FallinJaded a dit :

You don't have Dante, and your main is Saryn. Nobody is surprised with what you're saying.

Explain ?

[Flim_]

Would much rather the LOS for tragedy just be removed. It’s not like that’s what 90% of the posts have been the past 24 hours or anything. 

[Kuwagata]

20 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Hope so too. I want to wait to test the proper changes first before giving feedback, but I still double down that at release I thought his abilities had a lot of range VS other warframes I usually play, which is what surprises me. Could literally go through Eximus with a full Dark Verse + ult rotation in Steel Path with barely any Forma, which I found strangely odd. Can understand the frustration though, despite not sharing the ideas of a 100% full revert.

Problem is, if we wait for the full test before feedback, it'll get harder and harder for them to get back to adress this. Not to mention this is ONE of many things they need to keep tweaking, so the time to ask for changes is now, before they move on to another issue and start ignoring this one bc others are on the line. 

[BloodyPrimeSkull]

Pablo, are you happy? or will you ignore this discussion thread too?

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

If we're going to flex on "whaling," I probably spent a thousand dollars on this game in the last year. I'm a "whale," and I want to have frames be less oppressive and be able to handle less of the total gameplay in a mission. There are too many missions where one person has a kill count of 200+ and others have killcounts of ten, and I'd know. I'm the one *doing* that to the lobby so someone doesn't do it to me first and render my playtime trivial and dull.

Frankly, I play most content solo at this point in order to diversify what I play. The game is in such an unhealthy state when it comes to AoE nukeframes and AoE spam, and it's especially miserable if I'm doing any content outside of steel path, so I have to either race to the bottom and nuke faster or play alone.

Edited April 5 by Zooloo-the-Raven