Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[iamlordvaldomero]

How many 🧵 to resolve something that did not need to get complicated? Stop calling it tweaks, minor changes, etc...this is a whole relaunch of the Warframe. Either compensate the people with a full refund of plats/forma or get back to where we where. Shame on you dev team.

[WildTheDragon]

29 minutes ago, [DE]Pablo said:

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

People have been complaining about LOS checks for a while now, but if this works as-written, I feel there's a decent chance this just fixes the problem??

Like, "just have the enemy on your screen and LOS will hit" is EXACTLY what people would want. This then just becomes "enemies behind you, and over 5 meters away, won't be hit." Which, if that's causing problems, I feel like you're asking for too much in one ability. 

It is kinda stupid how his 4 got this nerf while his 2 is working perfectly fine, and really the only nerf needed was to his overguard, but THIS KIND of LOS change is kind of something that I feel people have been wanting for a hot minute? 
I'm hoping this LOS change is applied to more than Dante, but that's what it seems to suggest. If it works as-written, unironically a good change.

[--TL--mutazalmatani]

Dante didnt deserve that nerf, and the overwhelming majority of the community was against it.
On the other hand, Line of sight changes are something that is definitely needed as warframes such as khora suffer from the inconsistency of the current Los

[Waeleto]

Just now, WildTheDragon said:

really the only nerf needed was to his overguard,

The only nerf he needed was to the overguard he gives to allies not to himself, this is the reason this whole situation started and to this moment it hasn't been addressed yet

[addex]

that  is really nice but why dont you remove the LOS? you are focusing on the wrong thing and if you improve other aspects of the LOS issues fine ...but doing this?  its insane  and hard to understand honestly  to change something not broken into a bugged solution  and still not addressing the issue . This is the worst nerf ever and  the Nehza one is  really bad . this is the first time in 4 years i came to the forum and say my mind   but this time it was too much  and too bad!.

[yongluofanchen]

I have a very "Cooool" and "DE" idea, why not add "LoS" to all the skills? For example, "Desecrate, Mass Vitrify", we can also add durations for all skills, such as "Reservoirs". Trust me, this will make WARFRAME more "Cooool"

🤡

[Uan91]

Being "transparent" does NOT mean anything if you are tone deaf. 

This Is not the first time even.

Edited April 5 by Uan91

[mathiau]

Btw, in 99% of cases the issues with the curent LOS on Dante can be solved by jumping

[MistressOfDreams]

2 minutes ago, Mohawk666ImI said:

Yeah cuz it's low quality feedback. You can just move and then do the final verse, you know, use some skill to know your positioning and what you'll hit, it's fine. While yes they have said it's glitched, the Nerf as intended doesn't stop you from doing ridiculous amounts of damage, it just stops you from mindlessly soaking dark and finial all the time. It makes you think about casting before you spam it anyway cuz you're just going to miss something around the corner,  2.5 seconds before you can see it and already about to cast it again .

 

 

Td:lr your feedback is bad and you should do better 

You know nothing of how LOS works and it shows, not to mention they reworked the wrong thing, people wanted OVERGUARD reworked to where it applied to mods, arcanes, and abilities that require taking damage. Also they nerfed the birds for literally no good reason, just because they got better damage as they continued attacking. He wasn’t even that much of a nuker because Dark Verse already had an LOS check, makes no sense the detonator, Tragedy Final Verse, also have one. Name one detonator real or fantasy, that requires LOS.

[StratosOmega]

Please revert all the changes to Dante, he was in a really good spot.
Sometimes I feel like DE forgets that the game is about being a power fantasy, but what is a power fantasy without power?

We get Nullifiers, Eximus units in their current state (aka the death of crowd control) and a lot of nerfs that turn fun abilities into hoops we have to jump through to make them work.

Again, I'd love it if the changes to Dante were entirely reverted and instead you would look into ways to balance without over-complicating things. Make CC worth using again, please.

[BayouSnowman4]

Everyone here posting like DE is going to actually listen or care...OGs know what to expect, Im just surprised they moved this quickly to "fix" it.....just bad they kept saying were gonna give it time and see what happens before a nerf and different people saying different things on social/stream...then one week later after they've sold the packs and got the plat they nerf it, knowing damn well how he'd perform in the wild...want them to listen, speak with your wallets on the next warframe presented...but then again, they'll just likely let it go two weeks before a "fix."  

[FallinJaded]

41 minutes ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

You basically tricked the community into paying to advertise a new frame just so you could break it and force us all to be paid beta testers for your failed LoS check system. You really should just let everyone have a chance to get their money and resources back, because it's crazy we're supposed to be cool with such a huge hit to him at all. 

Came back to this game after 2 years just to find out you've become like every company I've walked away from, and it looks like a good chunk of your community feels the same way. Maybe you should have just done some actual testing instead of punishing us for supporting you, and punishing everyone else for investing time to build him or outright buying him for what you were going to take away. I've been a Saryn main for a crazy amount of time, so to say this is bringing balance to this frame is crazy considering Saryn has ALWAYS been a murder wagon at literally any level of content. I have frames that literally let me walk away from the game to do other things while I farm steel path.

 

Just refund us and let us know when he's actually ready. We aren't trying to buy you dinner for dishonesty and shoddy fixes.


Edit: Curious, so since it does 3 checks behind us at 3 different levels, we basically just have to hope it catches enemies behind us while we're moving quickly in the air? Seems like engineering a problem that didn't exist.

Edited April 5 by FallinJaded
Questioning unnecessary complexities in a simple problem.

[Reginleif_Prime]

Nobody wants this just remove it. Thats the case other nuke frames should get this.

[Cyberdragunz]

So why does Dante get the nerf bat immediately but plenty of other frames may as well just be a walking orbital bombardment in terms of unrestricted enemy damage? Just remove the LoS or apply it to everyone equally and watch at least half the players quit because of it. Absurd.

[Vazumongr]

Just now, Waeleto said:

Because dante has to cast 18 abilities to max his overguard cap while not doing anything else, styanax can max it was about 6 casts while killing enemies with his 4, also styanax's gameplay loop involves his 4 so he'll keep his overguard up as long as it doesn't get one shot while dante has to go out of his way to keep casting 224

So with the current state of Dante: Triumph grants you a flat 2000 Overguard and while the story is active, each kill or assisted kill restores 200 Overguard over 2 seconds. To reach max Overguard from a singular cast of Triumph, you would need to assist in 65 kills. This is independent of power strength as both the max cap and the Overguard gain scale linearly with Ability Strength.

With the current state of Styanax: Intrepid Stand grants Styanax 60 Overguard and his allies 30 Overguard for each time a spear damages an enemy, counting the Spears AoE. Meaning for Styanax to reach max Overguard, he would need to land 250 hits (again independent of Ability Strength since OG gained and cap scale linearly). Considering one cast of his spears throws 30, and AoE hits count, I do agree that reaching max Overguard can be done quicker on Styanax.

12 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

And overall, there is no reason to play dante over styanax anymore

Eh, I disagree. They are still different Warframes with different kits. Believe it or not, a lot of people will play whatever they have fun with. There's a lot more to a Warframe than "who can get the most Overguard the quickest." And besides, Dante's Overguard gen is more passive. Cast the story once then go about using the rest of your kit. I do think it should be changed to squad kills though instead of assists.

[Stomno]

hace 5 minutos, Rihenwn dijo:

Saryn, Volt, Mirage, Xaku and other warframes were never limited by LoS. Dante DOES NOT NEED LOS. You delivered a warframe one way, you should keep it that way. 

There's people who paid money for this. You're failing your community all over again, from the second you decided to introduce a warframe without submitting it to proper testing, to making drastic changes to it and expecting your playerbase to be okay with it.

 

They nedeed to make another post to invalidate all other responses it seems.
This x1000

If this is a post about Dante we just the the frame as the people bought it

[SleepyLia]

Remove LoS, and reduce the range or damage. 

And just like everyone else says, what about other frames that outplay Dante`s 4 by a long shot? 

[Vazumongr]

14 minutes ago, MATHIELPRIME said:

Yes you are cause his 4 never was a mindless one button nuke it actually required quite a set up to work hope I cleared your confusion 

My bad, I forgot spamming 3 was quite some setup. Unless you are counting "making sure my 45 second duration buff is active" as setup too?

[yeahnil]

My dude we don't want LOS, don't you understand?

If you're so adamant about your 'vision' add LOS to:

Saryn
Gauss
And basically any other AOE nuking frame.

But you wouldn't dare do that, would you?

[Drake_MPrime]

Well seems like that's it then. Dante was fun, but now he is gone.:D

Move on guys, this is just one game, plenty of other cool games out there...

[Asclepius200]

They are ready to change in the LoS system but not revert the nerf? What an amazing system the DEVs have 👏. They really want to kill this game fast.

[Sir.X]

Can I throw a suggestion in here? It's related to Chroma's new augment. Id just like it to have more duration like Cathode Current and Eternal War. It can be difficult at times to sustain it by yourself if squad isn't in range.

Also don't care much about the Los restrictions, Dante can support and kill superbly so it's fine.

[MatheusParceiro]

Pablo, give Dante back, leave him as he was before, remove this LoS, just leave Dante as he was before, that's all, the community asks, just listen to us, don't try to ruin it again, abandon this LoS and that's it.

[MistressOfDreams]

Just now, Vazumongr said:

My bad, I forgot spamming 3 was quite some setup. Unless you are counting "making sure my 45 second duration buff is active" as setup too?

Said 3 already needed LOS, THAT is what people mean by set up, but you never cared 😑

[Eggximus]

This is a good change, thanks Pablo!