Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[-ShadowRadiance-]

3 minutes ago, Vazumongr said:

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I am in favor of LoS checks and believe that mindless one-button-nukes in a 30m+ radius are bad for the overall health of the game in majority of cases. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Havent played equinox lately and pressed 4 huh? 

It requires about as much investment as Dante and performs 100% better.

 

Also. Mirage exists.

[BloodyPrimeSkull]

What's wrong with you, man? Take everything back the way it was, what kind of nonsense are you selling? Leave Dante alone or change all sorts of Octavia, Saryn, Gauss and others! This is disgusting behavior and an attempt to force us to use the same S#&$ year after year.

[Waeleto]

Just now, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Havent played equinox lately and pressed 4 huh? 

It requires about as much investment as Dante and performs 100% better.

 

Also. Mirage exists.

and saryn, volt, gara, 

[Kerlism]

Is it really this hard to admit these Dante changes were awful and just revert it?

[DeethPrime]

Wow, the los changes sound pretty good. I'm still not sure why Tragedy would need it while dark verse already has it, but if it works as I'm imagining from this, I'd be fine with it, although that's maybe because I didn't use Tragedy that often.

Have you guys thought of unnerfing the owls though?

[Ocerkin]

UNBIND DANTE! Revert the nerf no LoS!

[DeadS1lence]

It is insanely frustrating to see a good frame on release only to have him nerfed because DE was too eager to react and overdid it in the process. All they needed to do was to tweak the overguard on the squad as many had already stated.

It's getting tiring to see DE stating over and over again they listen to feedback when they actually don't.

[xDragonHunterxd]

19 minutes ago, [DE]Pablo said:

 

E

[Vazumongr]

3 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

It's mind blowing to me, this whole thing started because people asked for dante to not give overguard to allies because of it's conflict with inaros/nidus/chroma and they proceed to nerf HIS OWN overguard to the point it's worse that styanax and destroy his dmg ....

I don't understand why you consider it to be worse than Styanax's? Both have a base cap of 15,000. Dante's grants passive OG gen (which got buffed btw) in addition to flat amounts. Styanax's requires you use a mod slot for the augment.

FWIW, I also believe Styanax has a significantly overloaded kit that doesn't fit his own theme. In-game Styanax is described as a high-damage dealer, "The hoplite deals high damage," yet he has arguably the best support kit in the game. Healing, Shield Gen, Overguard Gen, Defense Stripping, Crowd Control (Grouping and Dispersing!), and Energy Regen.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Just now, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Consider alot of ppl have just found out, including me you have a max amount of likes per day. Meaning that number most likely is LOWER then what it is.

Wait really?

Huh..I did not know that, thanks for telling me

every day is a school day!

5 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

It's mind blowing to me, this whole thing started because people asked for dante to not give overguard to allies because of it's conflict with inaros/nidus/chroma and they proceed to nerf HIS OWN overguard to the point it's worse that styanax and destroy his dmg ....

Yeah, it is, painfully mindblowing even, since you know how simple something is yet it goes right over people's heads, I don't know about you, but this really drives me insane. But to be fair, I am insane xD

I even provided my own take on the patch notes and a lot of people wished they were real and hek you commented on it, All we need is a revert and to stop allies from getting affected by OG, since that can mess with mods like Rage OR better yet, put some effort into it and allow OG to work with mods like Rage, problem solved.

It's like taking a car to a workshop cuz you have a broken taillight, rather than fixing the actual problem you remove or replace other parts of the car that control the taillight cuz "oh that must be wrong" horrible example I know but still..

[Mazifet]

Hey @[DE]Pablo, don't listen to these people!

The upcoming changes to LoS are great, and the new tech will also improve a lot of other warframes in the future.

[Ocerkin]

19 minutes ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Listen to the fanbase and revert the nerfs, remove LoS! stop killing dante!

[All4Chaos]

Get your refunds folks they might listen the their wallet abit more then the people actually paying for it sadly this is what gaming has come to and its not Pablos fault im sure hes got a boss as well lets not take it out on him....if you do request a refund make sure you take off all shards or youll lose em just found out the hard way lol

Edited April 5 by All4Chaos

[MaxedCarp]

Revert the changes

[Nakti]

Some LoS checks are not from PoV of player, but from point of ability applications, aren't there? Khora whip, maybe anything else? Will these be addressed too?

 

There were enough people whose only concern was state of LoS. And this finally pushes fixes of that!

I'd consider LoS issues tedious to fix, and before yesterday they weren't significant enough to justify putting time into them. So at least something.

[Megasaphire]

Nerfing Dante after a week of his release so badly was still uncalled for. One of the warframes that were great on release after a while and he just gets nerfed. People barely got a week to enjoy Dante and now all of that investment is going to the drain. Just revert the changes, tweak the damage and OG if need be.

[Tecstasy]

Honestly, guys speak with your wallets.Start initiating Chargebacks on all your warframe purchases this past week. Does DE know what happens when a certain threshold of chargebacks happen.

[Calluna_V]

While it is good to hear that improvements are being made to the LoS checks of relevant abilities across the board, I think I speak for many, MANY players when I say that this compromise is NOT what we wanted. We would like to see the LoS check that was added to Dante's Tragedy Final Verse entirely removed, restoring its functionality to how it was before the Deep Archimedea patch. As myself and many others have said, Tragedy requiring a LoS check is redundant, as Dark Verse already has one. This only serves to limit Dante's playstyle and make him less fluid and fun to play. It was fun to go around the map marking discrete groups of enemies with Dark Verse and then cashing in on all of them with Tragedy. Adding a LoS check to Tragedy renders this gameplay loop severely hampered or impossible.

Dante's damage potential, by Digital Extremes' OWN ADMISSION in the patch notes, did NOT need to be addressed. Please listen to the overwhelming negative feedback on these changes and revert the nerfs to both Tragedy AND Pageflight.

[migoq_aki]

20 minutes ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state.

I just wanna say that I do see and appreciate this and you're a gigachad for going "I" instead of "We"

[Vazumongr]

2 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

and saryn, volt, gara, 

 

4 minutes ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Havent played equinox lately and pressed 4 huh? 

It requires about as much investment as Dante and performs 100% better.

 

Also. Mirage exists.

Y'all are just helping prove my point that 1 button nukes without LoS checks are problematic. I never singled out Dante.

[Wiz3rd]

No.

Remove the LoS entirely...

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, Vazumongr said:

I don't understand why you consider it to be worse than Styanax's? Both have a base cap of 15,000. Dante's grants passive OG gen (which got buffed btw) in addition to flat amounts. Styanax's requires you use a mod slot for the augment.

FWIW, I also believe Styanax has a significantly overloaded kit that doesn't fit his own theme. In-game Styanax is described as a high-damage dealer, "The hoplite deals high damage," yet he has arguably the best support kit in the game. Healing, Shield Gen, Overguard Gen, Defense Stripping, Crowd Control (Grouping and Dispersing!), and Energy Regen.

Because dante has to cast 18 abilities to max his overguard cap while not doing anything else, styanax can max it was about 6 casts while killing enemies with his 4, also styanax's gameplay loop involves his 4 so he'll keep his overguard up as long as it doesn't get one shot while dante has to go out of his way to keep casting 224

And overall, there is no reason to play dante over styanax anymore

[Misaania]

3 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

Hey @[DE]Pablo, don't listen to these people!

The upcoming changes to LoS are great, and the new tech will also improve a lot of other warframes in the future.

We're reviewing LoS right now with Dante. Can't speak to Khora at this exact moment, but the team has it noted.

They are only reviewing Dante. It won't happen to other Warframes, because they don't even identify that there are more issues than Dante and Khora.

[MATHIELPRIME]

11 minutes ago, Vazumongr said:

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I am in favor of LoS checks and believe that mindless one-button-nukes in a 30m+ radius are bad for the overall health of the game in majority of cases. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes you are cause his 4 never was a mindless one button nuke it actually required quite a set up to work hope I cleared your confusion 

[(PSN)Minkbink]

7 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

That's a good change.
Don't listen to people asking for a revert, if they want AoE nuke across walls, they don't actually want to play the game.

Bruh there are already frames that do that! Why nerf the fun one that isnt that overpowerd, and even if you do dont do it a week after launch.