[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[CelticShaman]

19 minutes ago, StarkillerHDX said:

Though, if I may be a little cynical, I'm not sure if I'm in the correct place to post this in, as I have no idea if DE reads through these pages. Even the most uninterested of acknowledgments would suffice, DE

Oh, they definitely read them. They then pick a slight comment about Mesa to address in a 30 plus pages thread about Dante.

[Nero.DMC]

1 hour ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

It is a balancing solution. It affects what lives and dies very heavily for the vast majority of played content. Regular star chart is what the overwhelming majority of people play, and they do not play it with a frame that can trivialize the content. You and I, doing all of this other stuff at the high end in steel path? We're the outliers. Balance can't just be for us. It has to be for the whole game.

For context, I started only a year ago. Ten percent of my total playtime is still Yareli, my first frame to receive a whole forma so I could put in more mods. I only finished the star chart when Duviri released. The thing that got me into this game and kept me here was that original star chart content and its challenges, which were challenging when I didn't have a fraction of the things I've farmed up now. I may have grown beyond that era, trivializing all of it, but I remember it clearly.

Balance matters for the whole game.

you wont have Dante in the star chart unless you pay for him so its a non issue for that part.

About LoS as a balancing tool, its simply not, if dante was too strong he still is in open maps, so it does nothing there, the problem with LoS as a balancing tool is extremely variable so whatever way you try to quantify the impact of having LoS is imposible, how much is his damage nerfed by this?

10? 20%? the answer is: it depends, hence it did not balance anything b/c at best you are still as powerful and unbalanced (according to them) and at worst you are extremely nerfed (when they stated that they did not want to nerf him that much).

LoS makes sense for certain abilities, but a finisher that requires you to mark enemies is certainly not a good pick for LoS, it just limit the way Dante plays by a lot and it does a awful job at actually balancing him.

[Renkuya]

10 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Ok, some numbers for context. I have my 439% Strenght Dante ready for some number crunch with Tragedy.

This is the dmg when I look at the ability: This means that each enemy (not primed) will receive that damage. At low levels, that damage is capable to kill anything but I will test it against SteelPath level 195 corrupted grinners.

Let's see how that BIG NUMBER goes there:

Results:

- Corrupted Butcher: 14843
- Corrupted Lancer: 321
- Corrupted Bombard: 131
- Corrupted Heavy Gunner: 295
- Corrupted Warden: 288

So, it's "good" to kill Corrupted Butchers. Do we really need that damage in high level play?
I mean, if this was the problem that made DE to add LoS in first place (not like we know, because they are insultingly silent and opaque towards the community), then between reducing range or remove that Dmg, i prefer to remove that meager damage than to cripple the ability reducing the range (thus, making it bad to clear several groups... like LoS again, but in another shape).

Ofc, the best thing would be to just revert all changes. But if thats not possible, then -Dmg is preferable over anything else (LoS and range included).

that's pretty terrible results, good lord. Why something like that needs a LoS nerf is.. confusing. Well, I guess it's not really confusing as they didn't understand why he was popular and what people wanted nerfed about him. They just saw a high initial usage stat and panic hit the nerf button. I'm going to be sad to let the PA and tennocon stuff go but, they won't even talk about the issue, I'm not going to pay them to nerf things and ignore me. Maybe we're all barking up the wrong tree. Maybe DE doesn't care about the forums, they only care about "content creators". A few loud voices over many quiet voices sort of deal.

[tartcactus]

Well, I hope DE had fun with what the content creators pay them. They are now down a family of three players who all routinely bought PA and Prime Accessories, 30 day boosters for everything, 3 Tennocon tickets, gear for the entire family. No more. Whole family of LR 4s. We may not be that much of a loss. Only 3 people, but they are not losing just 3 people. If this was an isolated or even occasional occurrence, that would be one thing but it is not. And I am tired of being ignored. I will now send my gaming dollars to Bethesda.

[Tek-Lee]

How is Dante, himself, an obstacle in LOS?  He's casting the spell.   Why create a new frame, that decimates opponents, talk him up, expect us not to use him... then place a broken mechanic on his ability because you didn't test the mod possibilities?  Come on, be real.  I thought warframe was moving beyond half assed "fixes" to working material.  Why blame the community, and punish us with broken patches, when you created and boasted about his abilities?

Remove LOS and slightly reduce his range (not like Nezha's "fix").

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

1 hour ago, Tek-Lee said:

How is Dante, himself, an obstacle in LOS?  He's casting the spell.   Why create a new frame, that decimates opponents, talk him up, expect us not to use him... then place a broken mechanic on his ability because you didn't test the mod possibilities?  Come on, be real.  I thought warframe was moving beyond half assed "fixes" to working material.  Why blame the community, and punish us with broken patches, when you created and boasted about his abilities?

Remove LOS and slightly reduce his range (not like Nezha's "fix").

Hes an obstacle because LOS is a buggy crap pile that has so many flaws and no amount of fixis will help that once they update it on Thursday its probably going to have the same flaws and cause way more frame drops for them adding more traces to it 

They should just take it off of Dante and reduce his range to 27 or 25 making him better

[MrDugan]

On 2024-04-08 at 2:24 PM, [DE]Momaw said:

We just tested this as both host and client and didn't see an obvious difference in how long it takes to kill an enemy between being capped at 30fps versus the host running unlimited on a high spec PC (over 400fps).

If you're seeing an issue with Peacemaker time-to-kill being affected by frame rate that can be verified with a video recording and a stopwatch, we need more details how to set up the test 😅

While you're talking about test specifications, I'm sure everyone would love to know how DE tests things.  What were the mods on Mesa?  Did you use a dev build Mesa with anything you?  An intern's Mesa?  Check the person making the complaint's profile and copy theirs?  What level did you test TTK on?  Level 15-30 like is always shown in dev streams?  Max level for simu?  What faction?  The beefier and harder to kill, the easier it would be to notice a TTK difference.

A Duviri Loaner model with DE build vs level 30 unarmored Infested Chargers is a completely different ballgame than level 225 Heavy Gunners vs an experienced player's Mesa.

It should also be easy for an actual dev to just check under the hood and see if FPS could potentially slow down DPS on a frame.  And if that's the case, it doesn't matter what your test is, because a player obviously noticed.

[Gaxxian]

hace 4 horas, Renkuya dijo:

that's pretty terrible results, good lord. Why something like that needs a LoS nerf is.. confusing. Well, I guess it's not really confusing as they didn't understand why he was popular and what people wanted nerfed about him. They just saw a high initial usage stat and panic hit the nerf button. I'm going to be sad to let the PA and tennocon stuff go but, they won't even talk about the issue, I'm not going to pay them to nerf things and ignore me. Maybe we're all barking up the wrong tree. Maybe DE doesn't care about the forums, they only care about "content creators". A few loud voices over many quiet voices sort of deal.

Because its good at low levels.
Thats why the removing that base dmg from Tragedy is the best compromise. We have our high level gameplay, DE have they low level "balance". Everybody ends fine.

 

People should stop suggesting miopic compromises like nerfing range. Its DE FFS, they will halve it and call it a day. Do you really think that DE will nerf it for just a few meters??? I mean, the first time they said that we would be cool with the "tweaks", and now they are saying that we will not like if they touch the range. Just imagine.
Asking for a reduced range as a compromise its like asking for Dante to be removed from the game without asking for it....

Edited April 10 by Gaxxian
Added a clarification

[Circle_of_Psi]

7 hours ago, CelticShaman said:

Oh, they definitely read them. They then pick a slight comment about Mesa to address in a 30 plus pages thread about Dante.

Fully agree ^

8 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Because its good at low levels.
Thats why the removing that base dmg from Tragedy is the best compromise. We have our high level gameplay, DE have they low level "balance". Everybody ends fine.

I'd be down for that as long as they remove their LoS they so care about

[Gaxxian]

hace 3 minutos, Circle_of_Psi dijo:

I'd be down for that as long as they remove their LoS they so care about

Thats the idea. But people keep spamming about range nerf lke they were born yesterday and think that DE will just cut a few meters from base range...

FFS, they said that we wouldnt have any problems with the first "tweaks" that they did, and look how we are. Now they are saying that a nerf on range "will not make us happy". Just imagine which nerf they are thinking on doing.... probably less range than Dark Verse.
Those suggestions will result in an even worse Dante than now, you will see.

Edited April 10 by Gaxxian
Typo

[TheTundraTerror]

Regular reminder that DE is the same developer that released Melee Influence, an Arcane that costs basically nothing to max out and lets you melt entire Steel Path missions with the Xoris, itself a food stamp weapon.

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Thats the idea. But people keep spamming about range nerf lke they were born yesterday and think that DE will just cut a few meters from base range...

FFS, they said that we wouldnt have any problems with the first "tweaks" that they did, and look how we are. Now they are saying that a nerf on range "will not make us happy". Just imagine which nerf they are thinking on doing.... probably less range than Dark Verse.
Those suggestions will result in an even worse Dante than now, you will see.

Exactly

 

15 hours ago, DeadlyDullahan said:

I believe you can, think it has to be done through the distributor. Sadly I don't have any overall stats on how many people have actually refunded up to this point, I'm just aware of 3 close friends who were going together that all requested refunds for their tickets and that a few others in their shared group were doing the same. They were already on the fence about going to Tennocon this year so I guess the additional drama this close to the event was just the last straw for them.
Whether they get their money back or not who knows, they'll likely get it back through one means or another so.

Hopefully they do

 

14 hours ago, PontifexPrimus1 said:

I am severely disappointed by the attitude they showed in the stream - no regrets, not understanding why people are upset, just flippantly treating it as "mistakes were made". There are people here who takes this seriously, who really have to think twice about investing into a game, and they just blew it off like it was no big deal.

Like we should not expect them to care, or listen to the tenno writing pages and pages in the forums; they just tell us to get over it without even bothering to even put it in these words. As if it is so obvious to them we're in the wrong, and they're completely in the right.

Afaird so

[DarthVZ]

Nice non-apology from DE btw. They still don't understand or refuse to understand the issue. 

[RavlinWasTaken]

19 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Really, bullying, is what you're calling it?

I know some people are going a bit too far but this seems way out of line that you think it's resorted to this, but to be fair, I can only judge by your text (and your profile pic) of where you stand, so I can't see the full picture here, you mind clearing it up?

People going out of their way to tag members of staff and berate them, often for things they are not even involved in within the company.
And what about my profile picture?

 

17 hours ago, Nimogrea said:

Mate, what part of "unprimed" do you not understand? I fully understand that dante can clear rooms that he's primed with his 3 in steel path. That's not the issue, the thing that people keep saying is that he can stand in one spot and spam his 4 killing entire maps out of his LoS which isn't the case unless you're only doing hydron. The game shouldn't be balanced around hydron levels. This hot fix was rushed because they implemented a change to a brand new warframe with practically zero data to backup the need for said nerf. If people were playing him during his launch week it's because he was new and exciting and easy to get from a fun game mode that just got tweaked.

Just so I'm clear you are complaining about his kit when you play it actively wrong?

[ShaloomHD]

10 hours ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

It is a balancing solution. It affects what lives and dies very heavily for the vast majority of played content. Regular star chart is what the overwhelming majority of people play, and they do not play it with a frame that can trivialize the content. You and I, doing all of this other stuff at the high end in steel path? We're the outliers. Balance can't just be for us. It has to be for the whole game.

For context, I started only a year ago. Ten percent of my total playtime is still Yareli, my first frame to receive a whole forma so I could put in more mods. I only finished the star chart when Duviri released. The thing that got me into this game and kept me here was that original star chart content and its challenges, which were challenging when I didn't have a fraction of the things I've farmed up now. I may have grown beyond that era, trivializing all of it, but I remember it clearly.

Balance matters for the whole game.

then like we keep saying put dante back to how he was and remove is base damage from is 4 that stops low level nukes that not most people play lol and hes still fun and good to play with at high levels 

[Gaxxian]

hace 3 minutos, ShaloomHD dijo:

then like we keep saying put dante back to how he was and remove is base damage from is 4 that stops low level nukes that not most people play lol and hes still fun and good to play with at high levels 

This ☝️

When even DE says that we will not like the range nerf... thats a dangerous path xD Losing dmg means nothing at high levels and brings that balance that DE also wants in lower levels, so they could remove LoS without further damaging Dante.

[RavlinWasTaken]

2 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

This ☝️

When even DE says that we will not like the range nerf... thats a dangerous path xD Losing dmg means nothing at high levels and brings that balance that DE also wants in lower levels, so they could remove LoS without further damaging Dante.

Genuinely curious cause the tone seems to have shifted overnight since the stream... Where has this narrative about tragedy base damage nuking low levels come from? When was that ever the issue?

[ShaloomHD]

6 minutes ago, RavlinWasTaken said:

Genuinely curious cause the tone seems to have shifted overnight since the stream... Where has this narrative about tragedy base damage nuking low levels come from? When was that ever the issue?

DE has said thats the reason for his 4 nerf was low level nukes 

[RavlinWasTaken]

1 minute ago, ShaloomHD said:

DE has said thats the reason for his 4 nerf was low level nukes 

I missed that in the stream, do you remember roughly what time it was so I can check?

[ShaloomHD]

3 minutes ago, RavlinWasTaken said:

I missed that in the stream, do you remember roughly what time it was so I can check?

I dont but they said something like its the low level nukes so if they removed LOS then they would have to nerf the range something like that 

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

No, that is completely wrong, now in order to hit the same enemies i used to prime i would have to do 2  or 3 full rotations of 334, before i could just mark with 3 and detonate when i felt i covered enough enemies, its a huge dps loss.

I think you need a refresher at math, if i cast 3 abilities now lets asume instead of hitting the 100 enemies thanks to los i only hit 80 from the 100 i marked, so the damage dealt with 80*100 = 8000, before i could prime the 100 enemies and hit the 100 so its 100*100 = 10.000 so wich one is the bigger number?

and that is being generous in some tiles you are hitting less than 20% of the enemies you used to be able to hit.

But that isnt true. You are completely ignoring how much dps you actually lose on tragedy by running around and spreading out your dark verse. It's as if you dont consider the mechanics of Final Verse at all.

Each extra Dark Verse you decide to apply across the map effectively reduces how much damage your previous Dark Verses will deal when you finaly detonate them. Each second that passes by is another portion lost that will not be multiplied by the massive detonation bonus. Each seperate Dark Verse cast on a new group also reduces how many stacks each group has, since it applies 2 stacks per cast. So focusing on what is infront of you and then detonating mostly results in 4 stacks per target with 5-6 seconds worth of status ticks to consume and multiply the damage on. Each second that passes is 16% of the primed damage that will never be included in the multiplier.

This results in as you toot around to spread your bleeds, the likelyhood that targets survive in the first group you primed gets higher and higher, since they mostly take the low slash ticks that are not multiplied and are left with only a few tick for you to consume as you cast Final Verse. Meaning you either need to cast more on them or shoot/melee them in order to die, since well, you just consumed all remaining status ticks, so nothing is left to finish them of.

As to the last part, no. People have claimed the labs are horrible since the added LoS requirement, it isnt. I did it this monday for EDA and there was nothing blocking me, no matter if I was on the other side of a railing or other environmental obstructions, it hit upwards, downwards, to the sides aslong as it was a PoV angle for LoS, no matter how little I saw of the mobs. And it is the same in the void, I can stand on the bottom and cast up on a balcony and still hit enemies mostly covered up by planters etc. There are LoS issues for some, but claiming it removes 80% of your former targets is just ridiculous.

14 hours ago, ShaloomHD said:

the top part his damage is bad on high levels is 4 does nothing on high levels without his 3  i rather them remove the base damage of his 4 then he cant nuke low level sh it and we get him back how he semi was is 4 a detonation skill and better then Saryn lol she full strips no LOS on none of her skills and can nuke low and high levels and nukes rooms more then one dante cant even before the nerf lol better then Saryn lol 

Yes, removal of the initial damage would be a good solution. As to Saryn and full strips. Yes that is all great, but I rather deal cinematic damage straight up and kill things without having to wait for a status to tick enough times. Saryn doesnt kill nearly as fast when you get into higher levels. Saryn deals around 30k (10k x3) with decently stacked spore damage and active spores per target, Dante deals hundreds of thousands and up to several millions of damage in a matter of seconds and ignore armor in the process. He also doesnt need to care about incoming damage for the most part, since even if you face high incoming damage, your OG will just keep resetting his invulnerability over and over and over. And if things really go down the crapper, there are always the shields to for another gate layer. This is also before we consider Dante's complete immunity to status effects aswell as other external sources that may impact your kit, like certain key modifiers in Cells and EDA/DA.

15 hours ago, LordOfKenpo said:

That particular map has very little to block LOS in many cases. On many other maps, Ember feels useless. I was pointing that the logic behind nerfing a frame because they can nuke Hydron is bad since a frame that should on no account be nerfed can do the same thing. You can nuke most maps on regular path with any frame with Thermal Sunder subsumed onto it.

But they likely didnt nerf him based on Hydron, but low content overall. Ember also works well practically everywhere. I used to play her extensively after her rework and she never had any real issues even with her outdates LoS mechanic compared to the one Dante uses. I revisited her again when Archon mods were released and had no particular problems then either. If they eventually give her Dantes current LoS mechanics she will be even more consistant.

And saying you can nuke maps with sunder isnt true in comparison to the skill we talk about. It's like when one of my old friends went "look at me when I 1HK this mob" followed by him making a massive preperation of debuffs etc. before pulling of his "1HK". Tragedy could literally nuke the map, since it covered the whole map and then some. Sunder nukes a fraction of that, because it doesnt have the range to nuke the map. So while you can use it to AoE clear, it still leaves room for the other members to be in the opposite direction of a defense mission for instance and get kills. That wasnt really an option with Dante there, since he could stand smack dab in the middle and cover every single spawn point by just dumping 33 wherever and then tap 4 to profit. There was no way to get away from that killing floor for anyone because a defense map is only so big. And on other maps it was still requiring you to get 52+ meters away from that Dante, or in reality avoid 104 meters of the map in total. Which in itself is ridiculous, because the moment you stray 25m+ from allies you no longer get shared affinity. So a player would be stuck either doing nothing to get the shared affinity or give up that affinity to have something to do.

I'm personally pro-AoE overall, but there is a limit to how deranged it can get in the disruptive sense. Yes, Saryn kills alot, sunder aswell, AoE guns too, but they do so slower or in far far far smaller areas. So people have a chance to both move away to get some kills and still get/grant shared affinity. At some point there must be a limit to the absurdities of AoE. The best thing would be to just remove the base damage of the skill and call it a day since it does nothing in SP but it was massively disruptive on the star chart.

 

[RavlinWasTaken]

47 minutes ago, ShaloomHD said:

I dont but they said something like its the low level nukes so if they removed LOS then they would have to nerf the range something like that 

In the parts where they talk about removing the LoS and reducing the range (which they say they don't want to) they don't mention low-level missions.

[Xsoskeleton]

Dante's LoS requirement for tragedy still kinda inconsistent from what i've tried again recently.
At this rate its probably better to remove the LoS check but reduce the area into cone shape akin to Dark Verse itself if u still wish to nerf Tragedy. It will stay somewhat true to the "sight requirement" idea and stays more true to camera point of view but without the inconsistent Line of Sight checks.

Edited April 10 by Xsoskeleton

[Gaxxian]

hace 5 minutos, RavlinWasTaken dijo:

In the parts where they talk about removing the LoS and reducing the range (which they say they don't want to) they don't mention low-level missions.

They never say anything directly, since DE are being very opaque as usual, but let me show this image:

Do you think that the dmg that you see in this img could be worrisome?
This is a 439% Str build vs Steel Path corrupted units (a variety of them). Thats the result of Tragedy into them (without Dark Verse, ofc, just Tragedy in itself).

The base damage from Tragedy does next to nothing in anything higher than low levels. So, if DE is worried about a big dmg AoE, cannot be due to what you see into that image.

The logic conclusion is that DE is trying to "balance" Tragedy, just for low level maps, where a 30k Slash AoE wave actually can kill everything.

My proposal? Remove that base dmg.

[RavlinWasTaken]

Just now, Gaxxian said:

They never say anything directly, since DE are being very opaque as usual, but let me show this image:

Do you think that the dmg that you see in this img could be worrisome?
This is a 439% Str build vs Steel Path corrupted units (a variety of them). Thats the result of Tragedy into them (without Dark Verse, ofc, just Tragedy in itself).

The base damage from Tragedy does next to nothing in anything higher than low levels. So, if DE is worried about a big dmg AoE, cannot be due to what you see into that image.

Surely this is just proving that DE didn't talk about the initial damage being a problem? Since like I said it never seemed to be the problem yesterday.