Deep Arsechemidia is just a giant pile of crap

[TheOlright]

You have a game, where you have 2 ways of dealing with enemies:

1) Abilities

2) Guns

Why are you constantly trying to take it from your players, by making "really hard" content? And I'm so tired of this "very hard content" just being missions, where you can be oneshotted, drained out of energy and\or not be able to go out as operator to catch your breath and evaluate the situation

Who on earth would think like this? "Ok, we have really hard missions, maybe we should give players ability to choose their loadout so they can adapt to it and pass it? Nah, let's just give them randomized options, LOL! And if they won't be able to complete it - it's their problem!"

Really, why? Why would you give players a randomized, limited choice of equipment? There are really not that many frames who can go through high-level defence easily. When I first saw this "elite" deep archemidia I instantly thought that defense would be horrible here, and here we are - it is

My friend and I always were able to go through any challenge with just the two of us. We tried, we failed, reconsidered our equipment, tried again. Repeat until you have optimal equipment to accomplish whatever you wanted to accomplish. Here? Mirror defense was quite doable even with randomized choices, really sweaty and hard, but doable. And then, bam - fricking culverin going to summon necramech. I rushed to it as soon as possible and tried to stop it, but since my shotgun shoot cotton candies and it had overguard - I wasn't being able to do anything. And so necramech was summoned. An eximus one. This was at this moment he knew - it's over. And yes, we couldn't do anything to it, before it destroyed our objective - just barely scratch. And as a cherry on top of this pile of garbage - 10 seconds before failure we heard, that another
culverin went to summon another necramech

I'm just not going to go and repeat a try praying that I will be able to stop qulevrins before they are able to summon a necramech, not talking about it being an eximus one

You are making that "prime time" streams on twitch, showing and trying new content, right? So, let's see, if you will be able to complete this week challange solo with Ivara and some crappy guns, shall we? So you can safley say, that anybody, who played your game constantly for 11 years can finish it, no problem

It's just so stupid. Once again, for fourth or fifth time you trying to present sortie as "new content," just making it harder and harder, trying to find the line where players would feel so annoyed they would just say "Screw that, I'm out". And so, you reached my line. I just refuse to play this "new" game mode, until you properly test and balance it. Until that, you can print patch notes with Deep Arsechemidia explanation, roll it into tight tube, and just shove it so deep wherever you want until it ends up between your eyes

P.S. Randomized equipment works for the circuit because with every wave you can pick up to two instrincts, to the point where even really outdated and weak weapons with default mods will become a powerful and feel-good to use tools. Not like I adore randomized equipment in any way, but it was rather fun to pick an old gun with unique mechanics and see what it will be capable of in the circuit

 

[ElRighto]

This! 

Plus unbearable gamepad controls. On a regular mission, you can still try to spin somehow. But when there are excimus around, loss of energy and everything like that, jumping and using the first ability is the same button!  🤢

It's not difficult. It's just a test of luck and endurance. A mode for those who like to play Dark Souls on a plastic guitar with colored buttons. 🤡

[Ghooostie]

I mean, you can choose your loadout though, and you can just not enable some modifiers if they're too annoying. You'll get less rewards sure, but as long as you get 3, you've already gotten more out of it than with just netracells.

[ElRighto]

Or you can add a little more random.  You spend two netra pulses, the system writes: “You are lucky for such a reward”. 

This way you can save time and nerves.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

49 minutes ago, Ghooostie said:

I mean, you can choose your loadout though, and you can just not enable some modifiers if they're too annoying. You'll get less rewards sure, but as long as you get 3, you've already gotten more out of it than with just netracells.

Or you can play entirely different mode... Hell, you can play entirely different game then, if this is the direction Warframe is taking from now on, right? Well, how about no.

There is no point in playing DA/EDA if you don't enable modifiers. Literally NONE. Might as well just run 2 Netra Cell missions instead.

But in its current state - it's not even a challenge, it's a chore and a mode that pointlessly wastes your time by ARTIFICIALLY prolonging the game-time, while not adding any meaningful challenge. All while also asking you to use clearly inferior gear. It's not fun. Simple as that.

[ElRighto]

29 минут назад, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ сказал:

All while also asking you to use clearly inferior gear. It's not fun. Simple as that.

God yes! 

Add 500+ guns and 50+ warframes to the game, some of which have been playing poorly for about ten years!  And instead of bringing them to mind first, put them into roulette!  This is a mixture of deep dive from DRG and scramble from OMD 3, but the rules are too complicated, random and strict.

[TheOlright]

1 hour ago, Ghooostie said:

I mean, you can choose your loadout though, and you can just not enable some modifiers if they're too annoying. You'll get less rewards sure, but as long as you get 3, you've already gotten more out of it than with just netracells.

There is some truth in your words, but then they can just replace it with gamble button: "spend 2 netra cell search points to roll the dice and win 0-8 prizes from netra cell pool"

They offer me some choices to pick, so, if I want to grab the best rewards, I have to accept all the restrictions, so it's their job to balance this gamemode so I can finish it with gear they offered me, no matter what, If I make no mistakes during the play through.

In other words, if they think they can limit my choice of my gear - they absolutely *must* balance it that way, that you can finish it with any frame or weapon. Currently, it's not so

My point is, earlier I thought DE couldn't think the way to make hard but interesting endgame, now I'm sure they just don't want or can't make it, because oneshot was never considered hard, it was considered annoying. And they've just fixed the circuit Jackal, so there are no way they couldn't foresaw that ppl will not like this new gamemode. Other examples:

1) Grenades, when they were barely visible, and you couldn't tell what killed you or full health objective in a second

2) Kuva liches with oneshot instadeath

3) Steelpath excavators hp scaling

They have the experience, the history of objectives and players being oneshotted, and nobody ever find it nice and cool, only annoying

DE just don't want to put any brainpower into "endgame" content, and instead every time they just decide to take away our favorite frames, guns, cc, energy and operator's mode and call it "hard mode for veteran players"

[pinkxblack]

Say no more, single players like me cant make it to the end...

[Drachnyn]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb TheOlright:

They offer me some choices to pick, so, if I want to grab the best rewards, I have to accept all the restrictions, so it's their job to balance this gamemode so I can finish it with gear they offered me, no matter what, If I make no mistakes during the play through.

All but one restriction. Do not get baited by the 0.75 arcanes the 50 vosfor represents. A 5 minute steel path mission gives you an entire arcane. Getting to use one op incarnon weapon guaranteed makes such a giant difference and the 37 research point reward is basically yelling at people to do so.

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

All but one restriction. Do not get baited by the 0.75 arcanes the 50 vosfor represents. A 5 minute steel path mission gives you an entire arcane. Getting to use one op incarnon weapon guaranteed makes such a giant difference and the 37 research point reward is basically yelling at people to do so.

Yup, people have to realize that. As you said, an Incarnon weapon or a meta Warframe (whichever you prefer or suits best to the mission types) is all it takes to go from "miserable experience" to "challenging but OK".

I had the garbagest picks this week, only Voruna was cool but with useless melee weapons, I just picked Dual Ichor and I went on to wreck everything as if it was ESO. Well, with some help from teammates for the Mirror Def as this one would've been tricky with only Voruna. 

[ElRighto]

1 час назад, Drachnyn сказал:

All but one restriction. Do not get baited by the 0.75 arcanes the 50 vosfor represents.

Looks like this was planned.  It is unlikely to complete the mission with all the conditions - the luck factor is too great.  Unless, of course, the party can pull through a burden out of nobility.

8 часов назад, TheOlright сказал:

they just decide to take away our favorite frames, guns,

This is their relatively new idea. 

Force the player to collect a full arsenal and invest in all things.  How to force a person to have Nyx in his arsenal and use it when enemies are practically not vulnerable to CC, and other abilities scale terribly? 

And we have quite a lot of frames that do not cope well with level 200+ enemies and rely only on weapons: Ashe, Banshee, Amber, Hildryn and so on.  Some of the frames without augments even play boringly.

And old frames generally become characters of one ability.  For example, Ash without an invisibility augment at extremely high levels is no good.  Unless someone uses it as a dog support.

[ElRighto]

8 часов назад, TheOlright сказал:

DE just don't want to put any brainpower into "endgame" content, and instead every time they just decide to take away our favorite frames, guns, cc, energy

By the way, in Orcs Must Die there are weekly challenges where you choose equipment.  But there all this is tested and specially selected by the developers. 

Through weekly challenges, players discover new capabilities of traps that they usually do not use.  And the developers have prepared a lot of such tests.  20 for the second part and 16 for the first, if I'm not confusing anything. 

If DE manually selected frames, weapons, modes and challenges for 20 weeks, it would be interesting! 

Some kind of espionage where you can't cause an alarm and Loki, Ivara and Voruna are available with bows, crossbows and kunai. 

But no, everything is random with us.  And we can only prepare three missions (Kahl, how good it is that you left us).

[Gaxxian]

hace 12 horas, Ghooostie dijo:

I mean, you can choose your loadout though, and you can just not enable some modifiers if they're too annoying. You'll get less rewards sure, but as long as you get 3, you've already gotten more out of it than with just netracells.

Yep, "you can just don't win the rewards in first place" its a logic mindset to solve the problem.

hace 12 horas, ElRighto dijo:

“You are lucky for such a reward”

Your face when "Melee adapter x2" and "Normal purchasable arcane x3" appears on screen xD

[ElRighto]

32 минуты назад, Gaxxian сказал:

"Melee adapter x2" and "Normal purchasable arcane x3"

Although, there was no need to waste time on all this.

[ElRighto]

9 часов назад, Gaxxian сказал:

you can just don't win the rewards in first place

Okay, I understand that there are games with similar logic. It doesn't upset me if the solitaire couldn't be folded. That's the whole point of the game.

But when the game gives you obviously losing cards (in this case, equipment) and says that you won't get good rewards this week. You were unlucky in advance.

At such moments, I want to see how the developers take their beloved Mag and Ember, sit down with a gamepad in front of the TV and go through this fascinating mode.

Edited April 9 by ElRighto
Autocorrection corrected.

[0_The_F00l]

i think its manageable , but there are some mission modifiers that can be near impossible with some loadout.

So you do need to co ordinate with other players - and thats a luck roll by itself.

[Ghooostie]

16 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Or you can play entirely different mode... Hell, you can play entirely different game then, if this is the direction Warframe is taking from now on, right? Well, how about no.

There is no point in playing DA/EDA if you don't enable modifiers. Literally NONE. Might as well just run 2 Netra Cell missions instead.

But in its current state - it's not even a challenge, it's a chore and a mode that pointlessly wastes your time by ARTIFICIALLY prolonging the game-time, while not adding any meaningful challenge. All while also asking you to use clearly inferior gear. It's not fun. Simple as that.

The point is to push your arsenal/skills.
At base, EDA is literally just the same rewards as running 2 netracells, just doing different missions.

Then at that point, you can optionally take on 4 modifers and/or 4 loadout specific challenges, to get bonus rewards. You're not forced to bring "inferior gear", you're being given an option of "hey, if you think you can handle these missions with XYZ, you can get little extra reward, else  no biggie!"

Even if all you enable is JUST the modifiers and bring whatever you want, you're still getting more out of your netracell pulses than if you had done 2 netracells

If you don't feel confident with what is offered during a week, then you don't have to use it, you can just bring something you are comfortable with and still get more rewards than if you had just run netracells.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

47 minutes ago, Ghooostie said:

The point is to push your arsenal/skills.
At base, EDA is literally just the same rewards as running 2 netracells, just doing different missions.

Then at that point, you can optionally take on 4 modifers and/or 4 loadout specific challenges, to get bonus rewards. You're not forced to bring "inferior gear", you're being given an option of "hey, if you think you can handle these missions with XYZ, you can get little extra reward, else  no biggie!"

Even if all you enable is JUST the modifiers and bring whatever you want, you're still getting more out of your netracell pulses than if you had done 2 netracells

If you don't feel confident with what is offered during a week, then you don't have to use it, you can just bring something you are comfortable with and still get more rewards than if you had just run netracells.

Alright, let's assume your view of it is the correct one. It's an "extra reward, but if you don't go for it - no biggie". Suuuuuuuuure. But then it's just playing on on the FOMO feeling instead. This is a once-a-week "challenge". And if you don't go all the way, for the full reward - you are missing out on that "extra", which will be "gone", once the week resets. Sure, the next week will be the same, will also have it's own, this week's "extra". But the previous week's "extra" that you didn't get? Yup. Gone, forever. Pure FOMO exploitation.

Either way, it is not a healthy thing for the game. Not this game, nor any other game out there.

Edited April 9 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[ElRighto]

34 минуты назад, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ сказал:

Pure FOMO exploitation.

And this pushes players to quickly get not very good equipment, buy space for it, use formas and potatoes.  And ideally, also rivens. 

More hustle, more platinum.

[pantophage]

As someone with basically every weapon and frame, 50+ forma lying around, and 30+ potatoes lying around. this is the perfect game mode for me on paper.

In reality its meh at best. First 2 missions were just like a normal mission but with a little more gravity since I had to make sure nobody died. I was somewhat enjoying them. but the last mission was hella boring and i don't even know if i wanna do these if the last mission is assassination because its such a drawn out fight.

I think its ok for a game mode to be aimed at more seasoned players, but this game mode is for nobody with the way the assassination currently works.
-newer players can't pass the gear checks
-older players that trashed MR fodder have to waste time rebuilding stuff
-older players that invested in everything are not rewarded because damage cap on boss

[pantophage]

33 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

The point is to push your arsenal/skills.

damage cap on boss says otherwise. beyond basic modding there's not much that matters for the boss. its just cookie clicker.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 minutes ago, pantophage said:

As someone with basically every weapon and frame, 50+ forma lying around, and 30+ potatoes lying around. this is the perfect game mode for me on paper.

In reality its meh at best. First 2 missions were just like a normal mission but with a little more gravity since I had to make sure nobody died. I was somewhat enjoying them. but the last mission was hella boring and i don't even know if i wanna do these if the last mission is assassination because its such a drawn out fight.

I think its ok for a game mode to be aimed at more seasoned players, but this game mode is for nobody with the way the assassination currently works.
-newer players can't pass the gear checks
-older players that trashed MR fodder have to waste time rebuilding stuff
-older players that invested in everything are not rewarded because damage cap on boss

I'm actually really enjoying EDA. However, all 3 of these points are solid. I'd only do a soft contest on #2 - because the Circuit already got us started on getting our arsenals in order. Another strong round of incarnons and we'll be in great shape.

[pantophage]

if it wasn't for the assassination mission i think i would be enjoying it too honestly

[Ghooostie]

6 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Alright, let's assume your view of it is the correct one. It's an "extra reward, but if you don't go for it - no biggie". Suuuuuuuuure. But then it's just playing on on the FOMO feeling instead. This is a once-a-week "challenge". And if you don't go all the way, for the full reward - you are missing out on that "extra", which will be "gone", once the week resets. Sure, the next week will be the same, will also have it's own, this week's "extra". But the previous week's "extra" that you didn't get? Yup. Gone, forever. Pure FOMO exploitation.

Either way, it is not a healthy thing for the game. Not this game, nor any other game out there.

Do you consider sorties, archon hunts, netracells, circuit etc as fomo too then, since they're also either weekly or daily ?

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

45 minutes ago, Ghooostie said:

Do you consider sorties, archon hunts, netracells, circuit etc as fomo too then, since they're also either weekly or daily ?

Sorties, Archon Hunts and Netracells do not have extra rewards locked behind unreasonable gear randomizer "requirement". You go in with whatever you like/enjoy using and consider the best-in-slot for this or that mission - to get the full reward, fair and square. No extra special conditions or requirements regarding using SPECIFIC gear, nothing locked behind anything. Full reward, upfront, nothing dangled in front of you like a carrot. Nope. You do a mission, you earn the full reward, period. You are guaranteed the full reward without having to jump through extra hoops - you get full reward just for completing the Sortie/Hunt/Netracells. There is no FOMO. You go in with any gear you like, complete the mission, get the full reward. That's it. Simple.

And yes, I was purposefully repeating it in multiple different forms for you to catch the main point there.

DA/EDA however has the "optional extra reward" locked behind using specific randomized gear. So if you just go in there in the same way you'd do Sortie/Archon Hunt/Netracell - yes, you'll be missing out on the extra reward. You only get a base reward, but to get the full reward you have to participate in the gear randomizer mechanic. A carrot dangling in front of your face.

As for the randomized gear? It's just choice out of "3 in slot", all while we have such variety of frames, primaries, secondaries and melees. More often than not, these "one of three in slot" choices will be not what you like/enjoy using in your average gameplay.  Or it's something that you simply don't have yet in the first place. Or it's something that you've maxed and sold it long time ago, because that also happens. Or it's something that you do have available (and gathering dust), but it isn't "ready" for this type of content - not formad/modded well enough. So out of fear of missing out on that extra reward that isn't given by default if you go in with your own gear, some players for sure will spend plat on buying the gear they are missing (be it a frame or weapon), plat on formas to upgrade said gear pieces, plat on Affinity boosters to forma that gear faster and do it in time for the weekly reset - because yes, many people have real lives too and not enough time for games. All those actual plat spendings to use this gear thing in this one special mode, this one specific week due to RNG gear rotation and... never touch that gear ever again. Why? Because it's still clearly inferior to their own favorite gear. And/or it's simply... NOT that specific piece of gear they like/enjoy using everywhere else in the rest of their gameplay time, even if it's good! And they just spent all that time and plat here out of fear of missing out on that extra reward, which is locked behind husing randomized gear and not issued if you're using the gear that you like, spent time getting used to and already spent resources into maximizing its potential. Which is literally the main whole point of this game up until now (Duviri aside, for a whole lot of reasons, starting already from fast constant rotations and easy "re-roll" by doing just one round and extracting).

Is the difference clear enough now, after the explanation?

 

Oh, and before you say it about Sorties... No point in mentioning weapon class restriction ("only snipers, only bows, etc") as a counter-argument - "class" is very generous compared to only having the choice "out of 3 in each slot" and it only applies to weapons... not Warframes, which are indeed "restricted" here, in the DA/EDA randomizer. Unless you decide to drop the last Vosfor reward and use your own favorite warframe, which is literally the best way to go right now, in the current state. Plus Sorties are much lower level activities, so gear is NOT that important in the first place. All while DA/EDA was supposed to be "endgame". Yeah, endgame where you're somehow "forced" to use sticks and stones against a boss with damage attenuation mechanic, severely reduced ammo drops, while having your hp/energy drained by invulnerable enemies and having eximuses being spam-spawned at you, as well as so much more stuff going on all around you. Completely different level of content, which is supposed to be tackled with your own chosen gear and builds that we've spent time working on, not some nonsensical RNG gear-set spit out by a randomizer. That's not challenge. That's an annoyance and counter-fun mechanic.

And even then, after all of this... DA/EDA fails to provide any real challenge! Because it all mostly feels like artificial prolongation of missions by turning them into boring, tiresome slog, rather than a challenge. It's not difficult, it's boring. And no doubt there's another thing too - people found a way to "skip", "go around" it all... on day one after release. By either leeching in pubs and relying on randoms to carry OR going as pre-made and 2-by-2, as I've already explained above (2 meta + 2 RNG, one run, then switch around and go again). People actively choosing not to engage in this, if there is a way to... And it tells quite a lot.

Edited April 9 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_