Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework (LIVE!)

[Karyst]

9 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yeah, this would make  sense.  But if you want sense, we should also turn ourselves and our squadmates into slightly larger chunks when firing explosive weapons at point blank range.  Rather than taking a little stagger, if that.

Bring back self damage. I want to render my character void of life force.

[DelugePrime]

53 minutes ago, TheOlright said:

+8-9% damage to my 50-150k slash damage per tick will feel so good.

Slash ticks ignore armor, which is why they're valuable. Having an armor cap won't increase your slash tick damage.

If the example they gave of an enemy with 100k health and 97% DR giving 3 mil EHP is close to how they want to keep EHP after the changes then then the enemies health will have to be boosted to 300k. So now the slash damage will actually take a bit longer to finish the enemy than it otherwise would have.

This would get very noticeable when an enemy that would normally have 10 mil EHP now needs 1 mil health and your 100k slash tick will take 10 seconds to kill whereas currently it'd still have been basically immediately.

[crispb]

On 2024-04-26 at 10:00 AM, [DE]Sam said:

Our goal with Cold is to emphasize the effectiveness of the fantasy of slowing and freezing your enemies.

Cold now has a new effect where you freeze your enemies upon reaching the new Cold stack maximum.

• Cold has a new stack cap!
  • Freezes enemies for a few seconds after inflicting full Cold stacks.
• While Frozen, Critical Damage is greatly increased.
  • How do Frozen enemies deal with additional damage?
    • Do not regenerate Shields.
    • Weapons and Warframes that deal Cold will be updated to reflect this new behaviour.
    • Freeze may synergize with other Status Effects, such as Bleed.
• VIP enemies (Acolytes, Bosses, etc.) cannot be completely frozen; they’ll also be immune to the frozen-inflicted Critical Damage increase, naturally.

 

Does this mean we might get new Primed mods e.g. Primed North Wind, Primed Deep Freeze?

--
Really hope this helps Frost, currently using Ice Wave only gets ~6 stacks of cold.  Feel like he just needs to much to be valuable e.g. Icy Avalanche, Biting Frost, Ability Strength, and Ability Range.  Basically dumping everything into his 4th ability and the other 3 don't really offer any value.

This often times makes Frost infuriating especially when you look at Archon Flow and its based on Cold kills.  And Frost abilities don't often kill but CC.

On top of this, other abilities/frames become more valuable e.g. Thermal Sunder, Mirage Sleight of Hand (Explosive Legerdemain), Citrine, and Lavos.

---
I am also excited to see if this will add extra critical damage to Voruna where Fangs of Raksh apply 10 random stacks along with Shroud of Dynar crit damage.

Edited April 28 by crispb
bring up frost vs other cold ability

[Greysmog]

On 2024-04-26 at 6:15 PM, TheKengineer said:

There's some interesting bits here. Some positive, some that doesn't seem to quite fit. Forgive me, this is going to be long but better now than after updates go live.

I like the concept of simplifying enemy health, armor, and shields to do away with the litany of types. Replacing that with faction/sub-faction types is a good concept and much easier to communicate to new players especially. 

However this example section:

I think this misunderstands the position of slash/viral and heat/viral in the meta. They're used for two reasons: They're strong, and they're reliable. The complex opportunities of using puncture, or corrosive, or radiation, or blast isn't what's holding them back from being used. Likewise the resistance to slash on armor is irrelevant to slash/viral builds. Players use slash and heat because they get the job done. Players don't use blast because it gets no job done, especially with the near total absence of machinery to fight.

Through any changes, it's important to keep the distinction between status and damage too. The reason slash/viral is still viable against the Murmur for example is because the slash penalty and viral penalty both do not apply to the effective portion of a slash/viral build. 

On the topic of armor Corrosive procs are definitely undertuned for fewer procs. Curiously though the workshop then goes on to focus on the armor aspect rather than defeating it. With armor strip options across a lot of gear, plus heavy damage options, damage type matching (including armor bypass like radiation vs alloy), slash procs, and emerald shards, killing armored enemies hasn't felt like an insurmountable challenge. I'm concerned that if armor gets capped low then armor debuffs will be without significant value, while if armor is capped high then the underlying nature of the equations hasn't changed. Taking the Heavy Gunner example, 10 corrosive procs "only" reduces the damage reduction from armor by less than 10%. However, it's increased the damage taken after armor from 2.7% to 12.18%, a 4.5x increase which is greater than 10 viral procs. (A scenario in which many would still use viral procs to enhance the slash procs they have, or use emerald shards to get the remaining 4 corrosive procs). 

Now repeat that same scenario but armor is capped at 2000. The damage reduction would be 86.96% before corrosive procs, 57.14% after corrosive procs. A whopping 29.8% decrease in absolute damage reduction value, yet only a 3.3x damage increase. **A lower starting armor value makes the same % armor reduction *worse*, not better.** 

Over the course of 14 corrosive procs on the 10815 armor enemy, the effective damage increase with each proc is:

If a more significant partial strip is desired, that last column is the one to focus on and smooth out (after of course a larger jump on the 1st proc, following the philosophy of 1 proc being significant on its own). For other sources of armor strip, notably abilities, players usually aim for a full strip because it's accessible. Why do half a job when doing the whole job is so easy and valuable? 

When it comes to dealing with armor then, I would suggest the focus be on ensuring the tools to partially defeat armor are sufficient to be worthwhile rather than - if I'm reading this right - redesigning armor entirely for enemies and making it scale differently than for players. Such a strip-focused approach then also doesn't call for health buffs which in turn doesn't nerf the TTK on setups which already full strip, such as the now well invested emerald archon shards.

----

On shields, how common is it for players to take breaks from killing the same unit long enough for shield regen to be important? I ask this as I consider the impact on a person pre- and post-change. The person who starts and finishes killing a shielded target without reloading would surely not give time for shields to regenerate more than a spit, so I wonder what difference they would see in gameplay. Meanwhile the person struggling, reloading to take on the unit, finds the wall even higher to climb due to the increased regen. This is on the assumption of shields not constantly regenerating while under fire, a change which could be both interesting and infuriating due to creating a minimum burst dps to beat a unit. I'd assume that the suggested answer would be to use magnetic which, while valid, leads nicely into the status changes.

• Cold - here's a status I wouldn't have guessed needed buffs right now. It slows targets down so much it's trivial to hit weak spots and evade abilities, especially as they hang in gravity defying animations. I openly recommend it against demolishers for example, and it pairs nicely alongside corrosive already. Still, sounds fun for a lot of people so if it seems necessary, have at it!
• Gas - here's a status I wouldn't have guessed only needed cosmetic improvements. To me, gas is exceptionally niche due to a small AoE, short lingering period, no elemental mod buff (except Valence Formation - Lavos wins again), and max 10 procs. If an 11th proc is applied, the 1st is removed even if it is stronger. No other damaging proc has such a limitation as standard. As I saw someone else succintly put it, the hard to see visuals are not the reason gas gets skipped. *My personal change* would be to remove the 10 proc cap for damage, keep the range cap, and then make the lingering gas cloud increase in duration based on procs on death. Not linearly, but such that applying a larger number of procs leaves a danger zone for a noticably longer period to help secure gas' identity separate from electric.
• Magnetic - my number one issue with magnetic is it only affects one faction. Corrosive affects corpus and infested armor even if it's less common than grineer. Viral affects corpus health even if they also have shields. Magnetic has no effect on unshielded enemies making it overly niche. If looking to make a meta that doesn't favour so few types, making types more universal seems a strong win to me rather than doubling down on making magnetic the "correct choice" for corpus. *My personal change* would be to add a Disruption effect to magnetic. Similar to how magnetic drains *Tenno* energy, affecting abilities, it could disrupt *Enemy* abilities. For example, an enemy would have a 1/(1+x) chance of successfully casting an ability where x is the number of magnetic procs on them. By abilities, I mean the ones we block with Banshee's Silence, like grapples, eximus powers, that sort of thing. While this wouldn't affect all enemies, it certainly affects all factions to make magnetic be more than discount viral while also matching it closer to how we get affected. Boss type units can resist this by capping the procs they receive, or specifically ignoring the Disruption effect just as how Archons ignore Corrosion.
• Blast - Please don't make this an "everything is AoE now!" status. I genuinely beg of you do not go down that road. Doubly so anything with lots of explodey effects to clog up my screen. *My personal change* is simple; Blast procs become the Viral of Overguard. Viral counters health, magnetic counters shields, corrosive counters armor, radiation counters buffs, gas counters groups, and blast can counter overguard. This gives it an all faction use that can be a serious contender against the cold-sharing viral and magnetic. Does the player want to deal more damage to all enemies of a faction, or do they want to overwhelm the overguard of the highest threat enemies? This would be especially useful to crowd control focused frames as a way to expedite their backup plan for the CC immune threats. 
• Lastly, though not mentioned in the workshop, Toxin - I don't really want to see Toxin nerfed, but I am also aware that it rather invalidates any threat shields can present. I also wouldn't want to see Toxin lose its identity as a shield bypass damage and status. If however this does need balancing, *My personal change* would make current shields count as pseduo-armor against toxin. Toxin still bypasses them, but it has an increasingly hard time the more shields the target has. The numbers would ABSOLUTELY need balancing, but not only would this make toxin less oppressive against mainly shielded units, it also could be extended to Tenno to give shield hitpoint tanks more resilience against enemy toxin damage.

----

I've said a lot here, mostly criticism, but that's because praise takes fewer words. Much of this workshop looks good. I hope this feedback may inspire even more good.

- Just some dude on the internet :)

While I do agree with most of these suggestions, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of how you've balanced Magnetic and Blast. 

To begin with, Void damage is more focused around taking out Overguard and the suggestion for Blast would probably make more sense if it applied to Void damage instead. Now Void damage easily overpowers Overguard with each successive stack, and anything else you use would be dealing extra damage similar to how Viral functions. You would help out Operators and the whole "pop in and out" gimmick DE was trying to emphasize instead of duct taping the effect to Blast. Plus if you apply this effect to Blast, it especially becomes a worthless Element again once an enemies Overguard is removed. That makes more sense for the element you're going to pull out rarely that already is neutral to everything else (and that you can't even mod for), not the damage type that's going to struggle against Armor and Shields once that Overguard is gone.

For the effect Blast might want to receive instead, it might make more sense to go with Heat and Cold as your examples. If Heat reduces Armor and Cold screws with Shields, why not make it a universal reduction option? I'm with you on the idea of making it not a frame rate killing option, so I would also like a different concept other than "secondary explosions". Blast can now just reduce enemy defenses, Shields or Armor included, and deals extra damage to Health. Now it functions as an in-between for Corrosive and Magnetic, helping you kill things like Sentients with their mixed health types but to a lesser degree than the more focused Corrosive and Magnetic builds. If you limit it to Overguard as well, there's the issue of it sucking since Overguard isn't a legitimate health type that overwrites enemy health types that would persist after its removed, that would cause a lot of issues.

As for Magnetic specifically, I feel like this again isn't enough of a reason to warrant using Magnetic in general. If anything, your suggested buff makes more sense for Radiation, as it is the anti-enemy special gimmicks Status Effect. It would honestly be pretty nice if Radiation turned off everything the enemy could do to you other than just shooting you, but anyways, would you consider something like Magnetic causing a disruptive effect in an AoE? Looking at Electric and Cold again for inspiration here, Magnetic does extra damage to Shields, and maybe you can make it increase the Status Chance of other procs, helping out Toxin builds, improving it's function against Armor with Heat and being an alternative to Viral.

Edited April 28 by Greysmog

[TheOlright]

30 minutes ago, DelugePrime said:

Slash ticks ignore armor, which is why they're valuable. Having an armor cap won't increase your slash tick damage.

 

It will increase the damage my weapon deals, so, it will increase slash proc damage, or I understand that incorrectly?

[(PSN)rexis12]

On 2024-04-27 at 12:00 AM, [DE]Sam said:

VIP enemies (Acolytes, Bosses, etc.) cannot be completely frozen; they’ll also be immune to the frozen-inflicted Critical Damage increase, naturally.

Doesn't that completely miss the purpose of wanting the big damage boost on the enemies that have huge amounts of health, and at the same time using the CC to counter the threat of said enemies. 

Like, I'd like it, but what I'm s eeing is that I can now kill a Grineer Lancer faster, which doesn't really mean much. 

[DelugePrime]

1 minute ago, TheOlright said:

It will increase the damage my weapon deals, so, it will increase slash proc damage, or I understand that incorrectly?

No, bleed effect doesn't take into account enemy armor resistances even when being applied.

This is the formula:

Slash Proc Damage per Tick = 0.35 x Modded Base Damage x (1- Faction Damage Bonuses) x Additional Multipliers

 

It isn't based on the weapons actual hit but on the weapons base damage and extra modifiers like limb damage and faction damage bonuses.

[TGOwl]

A good point of note that folks make is that Viral+Slash and Heat are used widely because they can directly bypass the main obstacle that is armor, and due to how the game works as of current you'd still be encouraging the strong things to be even stronger while weaker stuff gets forgotten since it doesn't present an efficient utility for the player. Perhaps alongside the changes there should be a review of what is the utility each status offers to the player and how/why are they using them together

For example, with Viral+Slash you have a 50% increased damage to health, and with Slash bypassing armor that buff becomes doubly important, plus with each shot/strike you help the Slash to cut through the healthbar quicker, so adding Heat also works to further cut that process as it strips 50% armor while the proc is in effect, but given the amounts of armor that high level enemies possess, stripping it all outright is the best solution when Heat doesn't cut it, but Viral+Slash remains king in this case

The same case applies for Corpus given that Toxin bypasses shields, and while it struggles against armor, that's again where full armor strip comes into play, but is less used despite its general utility since making Viral is better

Cold can be used to slow down targets to the point of hilarity and physics defying points, but is generally not used much simply due to the fact that is better to just kill everything outright and the targets you want to slow or freeze are immune to it. While Impact can be useful to trigger early kills thanks to requiring a number of hits rather than just a health threshold, its still insignificant given that overwhelming damage is still the correct answer. Same goes for Puncture, though in its case the damage debuff is insignificant at high level since you'll still be shot from everywhere

Blast and Magnetic don't have any utility since most enemies don't receive extra damage from them, half of the roster doesn't use shields and in fact resists magnetic, and again killing outright is a better move. Gas since the last rework pretty much doesn't do anything at all, at least from my experience.

Going back then to what was stated in the first paragraph, it would be a good idea to review not just how the status works on a single target, but also how they interact in a crowd AND amongst themselves. The starting point of having damage define by faction is a good start, but thus you'd have to review every single status type and accomodate things, assign roles to each status beyond simply being "best for dealing with one thing" but also make them "supplementary utility" to justify bigger changes and not keep the scope narrowed only on how to deal with armor

As a few ideas, if you keep the Blast idea of triggering explosions per stack before a big boom at max stacks, there could be an interesting synergy with other stats like maybe even have the explosions inherit the secondary statuses inflicted on the target, giving it a role of not just single-target stopper but also a status self-spreading tool with damage potential

For IPS, there should be global utilities that offer general benefits while also strengthening other combinations. Impact is good as is I feel, but perhaps it could have an area of effect that disrupts/staggers nearby units (maybe throw their aim off like current Blast does) while keeping its single target effect only to the Impact-affected unit, or maybe have it affect the other targets but with reduced duration (and if combined with Blast as described previously it would keep the full duration of the Mercy prompt for all targets affected)., making it a baseline crowd control/killswitch tool. Puncture could enhance critical hits (similarly to how Vigilante set works) and increase punch/follow through during the duration of the proc, which could also help a bunch of single target weapons to keep up with AoE effects and could make some Puncture-based melees more viable, making it a Crit Damage focused tool with crowd dealing capabilities. Slash is a hard one since its current effect is just too good to pass up and logically bleed status is what comes to mind, maybe that stays as is but has reduced effectiveness from armor though it can still bypass it, would still remain as the pure single target damage focused status of the three

For Heat the armor reduction and ignition panic is already good as is, and would work nicely with the proposed changes in the rework

Electricity's Tesla Coil could have a stronger stopping effect, maybe make it a hard value no matter the enemy type, but the wide Crowd Control should stay. Sometimes not killing things is theoretically better than outright doing so

Toxin should have a similar thing like Slash described above, where it can bypass shields, but its damage is reduced. Both it and Slash would be pure damage focused single target options, but also would represent the differences between armored and shielded enemies, and work equally against unshielded enemies (given that one bypasses shields and the other bypasses armor, both with reduced effectiveness since no weapon needs both and gives them roles, or could use both for general utility)

Cold freezing at max stacks plus enhancing Crit Chance is a good change. A change that can also give it more utility would be allowing VIP enemies to not be frozen but be affected by the enhanced Crit Chance, just to give it an edge. Same for Puncture as described above. In that front, and as an aside, maybe its time to look a little more closely at Frost?

It would be fun if Magnetic procs were a soft crowd control status: Void already got the "bullet attractor" effect, so Magnetic could actually jam weapons for a small window but also "magnetize" enemies within a certain radius during that same window, the more stacks the stronger the effect, while still retaining its shield draining capabilities, that way there's a universal application for magnetic outside of Corpus as a Grouping status. As another sidenote, maybe give a look at Mag's held 2? her 1 too but I'm sure that one will be solved once the cert update is live

Corrosive is good as is, but maybe a small buff can be required. Then again if the final numbers will work capped at 90% DR perhaps is a matter of just building up stacks fast

Radiation is also ok as Confusion can give some breathing room, but the strength of said confusion could be made a little better just to give some breathing room to the player, maybe make it have a small chance to self-spread the higher the stacks are (call it the target being "irradiated")

Gas should have a slightly wider area of effect, inherit its damage number just like heat does, and maybe make it the one jack of all trades status that can deal equal damage to anything that "breathes", so it would not affect certain units but in exchange it could bypass both armor and shields with the reduced effectiveness previously talked about

And the big one, Viral is a hard one because its a flat 50% damage increase and works on virtually anything. Maybe have it so that units deal decreased damage with a flat slow value but also receive increased damage (on a lower percentage, mind you, let's say an overall 25% on all three debuffs) and double the amount of stacks for all status during its own duration (for example, Blast could trigger two big explosions rapidly, Cold and Puncture could further increase Critical, longer duration for Slash and Heat, etc)

Perhaps even introduce Tau damage as a unique type as well that only certain few of sentient construction can use (i.e. Revenant and Caliban, maybe Shedu and some other sentient based weapons too like having Battacor deal a small percentage of Tau damage alongside its normal status) and make it so that Tau damage adapts to the target and buffs itself the higher the stacks it has (it is already pretty damaging against warframes without resistance to it or high armor values so maybe make it a unique type of dedicated DPS status but not moddable on weapons, unless you come up with something like a corrupted mod that adds it in exchange of some other stat). Neutral like Void but with a more direct effect on single targets, and in that note maybe have Xaku's Void damage deal a small percentage of damage towards entities that can only be properly fought as Operator (for example, Eidolons) just for the sake of cohesion (let's say Xaku's Void damage is filtered or something so its not as pure and damaging as the raw Void straight from the Operator's hand)

So what you can see here is that, at least in this proposal, the combined elements should have traits of their progenitors but with a twist (Radiation combines Heat and Electricity's crowd control, Gas combines Heat and Toxin's damage potential, Blast combines Heat and Cold's stopping power, Corrosive derives Toxin's utility with Electricity's high tick count, Magnetic combines Cold and Electricity's crowd control potential), and every single status has a general utility and purpose for building for it, while accounting that not all can be present in a single mod config. While its true that Viral and Slash would be nerfed, it is indeed necessary to tweak those a little if you want to have the other statuses be relevant in any way, while also bringing up the rest with sensible and logical effects that players can identify/figure quickly (for example, robots and machinery in general cannot be poisoned or gassed or sick, VIP targets should be still affected in some way that gives a benefit to running a status and not be immune outright unless its a logical thing to think). Of course, immunities, weaknesses and resistances are up to you for review and brainstorming

Finally, as an option to add to the general utility, you could make the augments that add elements on weapons be non-combining just like Saryn's Toxic Lash, that way there could be even more interesting combinations of status and effects that may work together well. Maybe even have certain Warframes that deal elemental damage in some way or form benefit by having a buff/resistance to their element on all sources (i.e. Ember dealing higher Heat damage, Frost dealing higher Cold damage, Saryn dealing higher Toxin/Viral damage, Mag dealing higher Magnetic damage, Ash dealing higher Slash damage, Excalibur dealing higher IPS damage, or make them resist those, and so on and so forth, figure this would be somewhat selective depending of the case)

But then again, this is just me spitballing some ideas that sound fun while trying to not ignore how things work currently. As usual, please consider your options carefully and don't rush things, and keep up the good work. Have a good day 🙂

Edited April 28 by TGOwl
small redaction correction

[VENDOMINUS]

1 hour ago, TheOlright said:

It will increase the damage my weapon deals, so, it will increase slash proc damage, or I understand that incorrectly?

You understand it incorrectly

Slash proc damage (bleed damage) is not related to how much damage you dealt to the enemy. So your damage on impact will increase by about 3x but your bleed damage will stay the same, while enemies will have 3x-50x more hp.

 

With the new changes Frost will we very OP until nerfs come along. Electric may replace slash as go to dot, because of the armor changes since it baseline deal more damage than slash procs, but gets destroyed by the current armor system. Heat will also be quite funny, though with the damage pillows, it kinda feels weak and may continue to be so. Still, stacking damage does take over quadratic scaling eventually.

 

It would be good to do something about the impact status though.

I liked a suggestion another person posted. Add the current puncture status effects to impact. After all if you get hammered in the head and are woozy, it's expected that you'll do less damage and be easier to crit.

Changing puncture, to give armor pen also sounds like a good idea (just ignores armor, doesn't strip it) and a health damage increase in the same line as viral, maybe at half the effectiveness, so that the status is usefull against enemies that don't have armor. That'd help many of the weapons that currently have a hard time finding a use case and viral won't be as needed. Also it does make sense for puncture based sniper riffles to actually puncture, no?

 

[UltraGuyver]

On 2024-04-26 at 3:13 PM, French said:

Dear DE,
The game  is at a point where you can take any weapon to level cap and you decide to nerf the enemies again. I was really hyped after seeing the enemies scaling rework expecting a buff.
First of all the cap to armor isnt THAT bad. it's so easiely stripped now that you dont really care about armor anymore. But you need to buff the HP by a lot, way more than you think. 
The recharge delay on shield isnt bad. Exept Toxin damage exist, it will ignore the shield and ignore this buff.
Also encouraging people to use Impact and magnetic when is a bad idea. You go in a Corpus map you use Toxin, you go in a grineer map you use slash, you go in an infested map you use viral. Thats it. it's a problem with the status  in general. But this is encouraging people to play worse loadout when you put that in the game.

Just do what people do in every game, nerf yourself in creative ways if you think it's too easy. I don't think the majority of players share your sentiment and you need to admit that the 10,000 to 100,000 armor being practically the same, meaning if you strip 90% you did nothing, is very bad in practice. Next thing you'll say is the toxin eximus straight up instakilling you through shield is "not that bad".

[Guillecaste]

Status bonus damages shouldn't be too much faction constricting since it's the point of faction damage mods (bane etc...), I think the values just merely need to change like they should rethink how much effective should these status bonus damage be on specific "skins" like for example, corrosive should retain some dmg bonus or smth after armor strip... 

Really like some status rework tho like for blast, puncture and cold... maybe by blasty they mean that each attack deals significant range aoe damage hopefully it doesn't ragdoll enemies xD

[mizu-seishin]

so far enemys are easy to defeat esspecially corpus because of toxin jsut ignoring the shields so id say dont change the armor scaling 

but i do have an idea for magnetic to be useful

its called magnetic so why not try and make enemys effected by magnetic status effect get pulled towards each other

[Aerikx]

On 2024-04-26 at 3:01 PM, Kovcheg_ said:

please leave the armor as it is now, warframe needs challenge and the armor is the best to test players attention to warframe's abilities and build proccess!😭

It needs challenge but the community can't handle challenge. Everything with even a shred of a challenge tied to it (looks at Corrupted Jackal) gets nerfed into the ground. At this point, DE is better off focusing on pumping good story, fun gameplay, and cool/unique mechanics. 

Pursuing challenge is a fool's errand for DE. 

They are already twerking and nerfing DA & EDA, I suspect the mode will be going to Path of Arbitrations & Archon Hunts in about 3 months (Eased to point where they are trivial). I'm calling it now. 

That said...

These changes are very good. Right now, the system is complex for the sake of being complex. It creates a balancing nightmare across the board. 

Armor should be armor. Shields should be shields. Dmg should be Dmg. Hp should be hp. 

Simplifying it also allows for status across the board to become not only more viable but downright meaningful. 

The irony of having the system be so complex is that it effectively creates a curve to where there is only 1 end all be all build. 

Hence why folks say: Warframe modding is awesome until the endgame. Where every single weapon uses 1 of 2 possible loadouts. 

And that's no lie. 

Everything is a copy and paste. Even Helminth builds have basically degraded to Nourish if the frame can armor strip or use an Armor Strip ability if they can't. 🫤 

It has been a problem for far too long.

[DstroyR]

44 минуты назад, Aerikx сказал:

Everything with even a shred of a challenge tied to it (looks at Corrupted Jackal) gets nerfed into the ground.

Well, without armor strip Corrupted Jackal in his current state still can be a problem, especialy solo after 16-18 round of SP Circuit. It is nearly gridlock, when only option to deal with him it is melee combat, if out of ammo. Yeah, his attacks are less deadly now, but he still not eazy to kill and he still to dangerous guy, espacialy at lvl cap reached. Also, he can`t be completely frozen, but cold can so slow him. So, decrees like "Lucinia suffering", "Critical frost" and "Shattering cold" are very helpful, even more than weapon with cold mods. Corrupted Jackal, completely immuned to cold status, it is kinda nigtmare for solo SP Circuit players like me.

[DogeUmbra]

On 2024-04-26 at 3:21 PM, majistaria said:

How will this affect Frost's Augment, Biting Frost?

yeah I was thinking free crit for Frost prime too

like if you mod cold on weapon and max stack cold to freeze enemies(with aoe cold mod) you can get "red crit" on every weapons you mod cold with that augment on Frost, crazy

 

and I think we should go crowd control with Magnetic because it is already has both cold(slow) and electric(stun shock) combined, like for example shock target and slowly pull in area around target(like magnetic anomaly does, well, pull at max stack maybe) while disable their(future) shield regen in area of 4m?

 

Blast it should also Stagger each status like Impact and at max stack of Blast enemies around 2m target got knockdown(please just knockdown not fly away) and open for ground finisher, or has something to do with armor like when you shot anti-tank explosive ammo at a tank it should get a hole on enemies armor(well like Heat<melt50% armor> which is already in the combination of Blast status)

[Eneitilyn]

 

Hello I dont understand why half the people coming here are all suggesting changes to Viral and Slash too.. I think the changes to Cold Status are wonderful the problem here is if you cannot apply the freeze effect frequently!! Because of the Priming Meta Cold status becomes automatically the most strongest element to have on your Epitaph Primer Why?

Dear Digital Extremes here is why you should buff Blast dmg even more (as a DPS or Utility option more so than Cold Status) Status reworking Blast is nice and all but have you considered what happens to Primers upon reworking these elements?? For example 1: Cold Procs freeze enemies at 10 stacks guaranteed! This means Epitaph that can reach 300% status with a riven and other mods would freeze enemies in 2 shots! Turning them to Ice making Primers abosolutely essential at higher level content.. Why would i ever use anything else...
Example 2: Cold procs stack up to 6 and freeze enemies for 6 seconds and after they thaw the enemies cannot be ever frozen again! This makes Cold Procs and their secondary damage buff upon frozen useless because you can only shoot so many enemies at once upon freezing them!
Example 3: Cold Procs propagate into other enemies courtesy of Shivering Contagion augment freezing multiple enemies at once and upon death exploding like glass and freezing more enemies in an area based on minimum weapon projectile fall off distance(yes this is a suggestion to rework this Cold augment since accoridng to Thermodynamics Cold is a type of Radiation!!!)
Example:4 Cold Procs frozen enemies cannot be frozen again for a certain amount of time! This makes Priming enemies for Cold procs in order to headshot them very tedious as you have no clue which enemi is going to be Frozen next making your crosshair into whack a mole mini game! Which sounds painful!!! These are core drawbacks as of now!

Explanation on Blast damage importance!! I just would like to highlight how ridiculously strong all of the examples of Cold Status are weighting it against Blast status causing 'simple staggers' or 'ragdolls' will never make it competative against Cold in terms of Utility and Burst DPS increases!!! Yes this is where I say Blast dmg has always been 2nd last to everything (Magnetic lol) mainly because it's never been a Burst DPS increase!!
Blast in my Example:1 Blast hits like a instant damage Gas cloud in 6-8m radius hitting every limb part of an enemy causing multiple hits or crits(if headshot) and multiple DMG pop ups! Making you deal more DMG against enemies with more hitboxes! Also able to scale quadratically kind of like Gas does but not with base damage instead with status chance more procs = more Burst DMG at once!
Example:3 Blast dmg crits and it only does on weapon crits it hits every limb on the enemies's bodies in a radius and it deals certain amount of %HP 'Disaster dmg' note that the DMG dealt is based on individual enemies HP if u hit a weaker enemy with a lot of HP you wont kill everything around it it will simply deal "similar amounts of" 'disaster dmg' to nearby armored units too! This makes Blast useless for priming as it adds no value to a Primer which holds no base dmg...

Last is a very extreme example why not make Blast status deal a guaranteed Red crit hit in an AOE based on weapon base DMG? This will turn every single target weapon deal certain amount of AOE DMG to targets nearby namely the 3x DMG multiplier which makes it a Red Number?? Again majorly useless as Priming status would make it unsatisfying to use as a Primer I just think Blast Status should give you exponential short term DPS(Burst Damage) if it would make other weapons with Only high Status viable it would be a great direction to put Status damage inline with Critical damage scalling (Crits have inifnite Tiers?! How come Status doesn't ? apart from Slash and Heat?)

I don't post often please I apologize if this is not a Feedback thread I just wanted to give my opinion of the upcoming rework!

Why not talk about 🧲? I am sorry but Magnetic has always been a good Primer status and Damage dealer against Shields I don't think it needed a rework honestly I hate Shields and they are buffing them honestly this sounds like a nightmare and I have always hated Nullifier bubbles! isn't Shields basically a regenerating secondary Healthbar...Same thing about Overguard What really is the difference between Overguard and Shields ever since Dante dropped I have realized Overguard is basically another Number on screen for Shields! Because it regenerated like Shields and has 'gate' mechanic as well. I just want to make sure you stay Vigilant about the tankyness it gives to Eximus units because Reworking Shields and Buffing Overguard... May make certain enemies impossible to kill without Magnetic damage because they have Both variants of 'Shields' which guess what!! Both need different damage type to deal with.. Magnetic + Void Damage! now which weapon has both? No weapon in the game... Your essentially buffing Triple Health types 'Healthbar' Eximus enemies!

Edited April 28 by Eneitilyn

[quxier]

On 2024-04-26 at 6:00 PM, [DE]Sam said:

Gas
Gas often lacks effective readability, making it difficult to distinguish its presence from the Enemy or yourself. It’s important to introduce enhanced visuals for the Gas Status so its presence is noticeably present. 

Some ideas we had were to, which are very prone to change:

• Extends the range of the Gas Cloud FX based on the range of the Status (caps at 6m at 10 stacks).
• Additional FX added to affected enemies to communicate Status activity.
• Gas FX having billowy volume to better present presence.
• Gas FX having additional floating particles around the smoke.
• Enemy Gas FX having additional red coloring to communicate threat to player.

Why we need more visuals? Weapon deals Gas pros > it damage enemies. That's it. As fair I remember Gas doesn't spready other elements. You, for example, don't want to shoot e.g. toxic  damage to make some "super combination". Gas is readable enough, imho.

[SylvaPsycho]

I doubt this is likely to be seen/considered by DE honestly, but I made a document going over my own suggestions for a damage/status type rework a little while ago, primarily to get them out of my head and onto virtual paper, but this is as good a time as any to share them.

I've reviewed this to account for some of the changes proposed here, but it didn't substantially change anything I came up with.

Anyway, here it is, hopefully this link works because it'd be far too long to put into a forum comment.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZmjytBxOlWBmZLF0w8LjoGpENRzLfGikCkYzQpU-xco/edit?usp=drivesdk

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, quxier said:

Why we need more visuals? Weapon deals Gas pros > it damage enemies. That's it. As fair I remember Gas doesn't spready other elements. You, for example, don't want to shoot e.g. toxic  damage to make some "super combination". Gas is readable enough, imho.

I find visual feedback a pleasing feature as long as it's not overdone  I'd say it's actually a bit more important in the case of gas relative to other status effects.  Like other effects, one can look at the status bar of the enemy to know whether it's activated.  Unlike other status effects though, gas procs persist after a target's death--and dead target = no status bar--and damage enemies that haven't been directly inflicted with gas status. 

Gas status actually does have a visual, but it's hard to see or outright invisible in some locations.  Hopefully this is more a matter of fixing  the current visual feedback or improving it.  If they go too far and make it too visually busy, that would be a mistake as well.

[quxier]

8 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

48 minutes ago, quxier said:

Why we need more visuals? Weapon deals Gas pros > it damage enemies. That's it. As fair I remember Gas doesn't spready other elements. You, for example, don't want to shoot e.g. toxic  damage to make some "super combination". Gas is readable enough, imho.

I find visual feedback a pleasing feature as long as it's not overdone  I'd say it's actually a bit more important in the case of gas relative to other status effects.  Like other effects, one can look at the status bar of the enemy to know whether it's activated.  Unlike other status effects though, gas procs persist after a target's death--and dead target = no status bar--and damage enemies that haven't been directly inflicted with gas status. 

Gas status actually does have a visual, but it's hard to see or outright invisible in some locations.  Hopefully this is more a matter of fixing  the current visual feedback or improving it.  If they go too far and make it too visually busy, that would be a mistake as well.

The thing is lots of visuals are mashed together. More visuals won't make it better. I think they need reduce visuals first THEN maybe increase gas.

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, quxier said:

The thing is lots of visuals are mashed together. More visuals won't make it better. I think they need reduce visuals first THEN maybe increase gas.

AFAIC solo there's plenty of room for increasing visuals.  They absolutely should make "Reduce Teammate Visual Effects" work better.  But that's a major project, and this is more like a small qol.

If that bothers you, well, the good news is gas isn't popular, and that's not going to change much without mechanical changes.

[quxier]

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

The thing is lots of visuals are mashed together. More visuals won't make it better. I think they need reduce visuals first THEN maybe increase gas.

AFAIC solo there's plenty of room for increasing visuals.  They absolutely should make "Reduce Teammate Visual Effects" work better.  But that's a major project, and this is more like a small qol.

If that bothers you, well, the good news is gas isn't popular, and that's not going to change much without mechanical changes.

I'm using gas on some weapon (e.g. magnatic + melee vortex + gas). Well, if it isn't like old gas (low performance afair) then it would be ok.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

I'm using gas on some weapon (e.g. magnatic + melee vortex + gas). Well, if it isn't like old gas (low performance afair) then it would be ok.

If you're talking about your own visual effects bothering you, you might want to look at your Visual Effects Intensity setting or your other video settings.

[quxier]

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

27 minutes ago, quxier said:

I'm using gas on some weapon (e.g. magnatic + melee vortex + gas). Well, if it isn't like old gas (low performance afair) then it would be ok.

If you're talking about your own visual effects bothering you, you might want to look at your Visual Effects Intensity setting or your other video settings.

I've probably all settings turned off. Visual effect at ~1/2. It's still MESS. One thing is almost invisible while other thing is e.g. big ball of light.

And I'm not sure if they fixed it because I've changed pc (old laptop, 8gb with integrated to gtx+8gb ram). Gas used to lower my fps a lot. Now I don't see that stuff with gas (at least, I've not done whole room with gas).

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-04-27 at 4:00 AM, NovahX said:

First of all, combining elemental mods to produce one different elemental has to go and instead re-introduce the combined elementals as their own separate elementals that do not need two elemental mods to produce

This would effectively re-introduce "rainbow builds" which what the combined elements were specifically created to destroy back in 2014. I don't see them ever even considering this idea