Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework (Updated with May Devstream!)

[DstroyR]

Well, simlpy solutions for:
 

blast:
distractive (as in current state) and some additional stunning effects (stun for 1 sec, maybe?) at min stacks (1-7?) + "cummulative jet" effect (+25%? of incoming damage will ignore armor of well-blasted target) at max stacks (8-10?).
So, effective against weak enemyes and reasonable for using against well-armored single targets too. I guess, VIP units may be immune for 1-7 stack effects, but should be vilnerable for 8-10 stack effect.

gas:
Let's see how working are known "chemical warfare agents": suffocating, nerve agents etc.
I think, gas may be similar to toxin. Well, less deadly than pure toxin (n% of typical toxic DOT, maybe), but spreadable and capable to ignore shields and armor as well with n% efficiency (for example, 25% of gas prock damage will bypassing shields and armor).

Anyway, I guess, it is reasonable to do simple elements little more focused on health/shields/armor, and complex elements little more universal to use=)

[EVTAKOM]

I think it would be good to add more mods like Focus Radon but for magnet and etc.It's not essential to have all combined statuses as 1 mod but it would give more space to build ur weapon

[chaotea]

13 hours ago, French said:

Toxin bypass shield

Bleed is true damage, which ignore armor

Infested got 0 hp anyways.

 

 

Right, but its not a change to how status works, its a discussion of how damage types work. Taking specific elements works with a high status build, but would you take toxin for corpus on a low status build with high crit or base damage?

[LittleLeoniePrime]

15 minutes ago, chaotea said:

but would you take toxin for corpus on a low status build with high crit or base damage

yes, yes I would. Considering toxin damage already bypasses shields entirely it doesn't even have to be the status DoT effect.

Shields simply being present need to give corpus DR against toxin damage to incetivise building for magnetic.

[Executor_Tuvul]

hello!

I believe the magnetic procs needs to agrouping machinary enemies in a short range! More Useful in mission with grand number of enemies. the blast is blast... throw enemies in a range with occurs bonus damage in case of enemies corpse to hit another enemie. And sugest one new weapon zarabatan with viral and slash damage low ammo, medium project speed, greater status e low critical chance, a primary weapon or secundary weapon! =D

[(PSN)WF-Djin]

Hopefully cross trade is at the end of your QoL pursuit 

Every time you add things which make the time of people who are refusing to read a single word or to grapple with warframe just a little bit easier instead of picking out the profound advises of veterans

The game is becoming easier and easier while every long term player wants some difficult content 

Its not enough to name a game mode like netracells "very difficult" If it simply is not

Deep archimedea and its modifiers is better then Bosses with a dozen invulnerability phases or scaled down damage but its a single activity done in half an hour. Then I'll wait for next week. That this is not the end game content everybody wants should be clear to you DE. Its no protracted great gaming experience you offer to your veteran players. You stall them. 

Only supporting new players exclusively caring about profits and fluctuation of demand you are miss hearing the people who love the game you sold to Tencent since the beginning and also buying every supporter pack you release. 

[Harutomata]

I always disliked the "mandated" use of armor strip, it basically defaulted your helminth choice to that if your warframe didn't have it on their abilities already (unless you go for slash), so I hope this makes more options viable.
Not talking about the inconsistent rules for what can strip enemies like acolytes and what can not. On Terrify I get it a bit, but Fire Blast? It's already inferior to other armor strip abilities, let it do that. If not on helminth then on Ember.
"But acolytes are CC immune" ok? Then explain why Avalanche or Reckoning armor strips them. Aren't freezing and lifting enemies up a form of CC? They don't do it to bosses, but the armor strip still works there. Bit of a double standard that could be addressed again. Just to be clear I'm not suggesting removing those armor strips from Frost and Oberon, instead make Fire Blast work similarly.
Also, give Ember (and older frames) level scaling damage, you invented the tech with the Vauban rework, use it more. (I know about heat inherit, but it's not exactly an argument against possible improvements.)

Also, I hope Toxin retains its shield bypass because if it doesn't there's going to be literally no reason to use it anymore over Heat. Especially if it's no longer going to do extra damage on Corpus health.
If you want to uplift magnetic I'm sure there are other ways to do that than making toxin worthless.

47 minutes ago, Executor_Tuvul said:

hello!

I believe the magnetic procs needs to agrouping machinary enemies in a short range! More Useful in mission with grand number of enemies. the blast is blast... throw enemies in a range with occurs bonus damage in case of enemies corpse to hit another enemie.

This tenno has a great idea for it. Could make it work on armored enemies instead of just machinery, then there's instantly an incentive to take magnetic against other factions than Corpus, and it adds options for new combinations like Magnetic and Gas, or if your weapon has Blast on it by default, maybe even Blast and Magnetic?

Edited April 30 by Harutomata

[Maxwell]

Make magnetic spawn the mag bubbles we see in mag hazards. And give it grouping properties maybe, it's so weak for a combination element im, cold get buffed and I like it but double elements should get a bit more punch

[Orokin]

On 2024-04-28 at 9:37 AM, UltraGuyver said:

Just do what people do in every game, nerf yourself in creative ways if you think it's too easy. I don't think the majority of players share your sentiment and you need to admit that the 10,000 to 100,000 armor being practically the same, meaning if you strip 90% you did nothing, is very bad in practice. Next thing you'll say is the toxin eximus straight up instakilling you through shield is "not that bad".

10k and 100k armor are not "practically the same". I encourage you (and the developers) to look into how to calculate EHP and see how these armor values are not the same at all.

20 hours ago, OrionTCB said:

The problem is that the current curve is non-linear, that's why Corrosive just dies at some point. At 100 armor we have 25%, at 200 = 40%, 300 = 50% and so on until it reaches the "threshold". At 1000 we have ~77%, 2000 = ~87%, 3000 = ~91% and at 10000 = ~97%. An Exo Gokstad Officier (only RJ) has +1M armor at level cap which is 99.97% DR, that's a ×3339 damage loss. Yikes.

The current curve makes it so that too much armor isn't necessary on frames. Why bother going above 300 (50% DR) ? It's too hard to reach the next "good threshold".

You are misunderstanding how armor works. Please figure out how to calculate EHP and adjust your opinion. 

[Neightrix]

Had to cook on this workshop for a few days before making a post.

I think there's 4 major parts to this, and the first 3 I don't think are in much contention.
1. Giving the player upfront information about enemy damage type weaknesses, clearly visible for new players on viewing the planets in navigation, which I think we all fully support.
2. Make armor less oppressive and corrosive status linearly more effective. Again, this is an absolute win.
3. Incentivizing bringing the prescribed damage types, which I think necessarily means streamlining element changes on your weapons, as having to go back to the arsenal before every mission is too much of a hassle.

The last part is the actual numbers themselves. I'm not sure I want a system where every enemy within a given faction has identical weaknesses. Resistances look like the proposed method to make some damage types relevant per planet (presumably by making would-be effective types terrible), which I don't really like since it sounds like players will be forced to have *and* remember a dozen or so optimal element setups, which I think is too much.

Instead of planet resistances, I would much prefer there remain some nuance in faction weaknesses/resistances. There's already so little difference in enemies for each faction in how they engage the player, making them all die to the same damage types will further reduce how different they feel from one another. Maybe instead of planet resistances we do things like make corpus bots immune to viral status and/or resist toxin and give them relatively higher shields, which presents a choice of compromise on your weapon build where you can kill the humans faster with viral or toxin, or focus on magnetic to maintain equal effectiveness across the faction (which is what would be recommended by the UI). This is just a possible example - the goal being to make the choice per weapon for a given faction rather than the more tedious per planet.

Edited April 30 by Neightrix

[HonorCandy]

As a whole I'm just so happy to finally see these changes.

 

The few things i'll point out first is.

By depending on how capped armor functions, Viral+Heat just becomes the defacto omni faction status effect as it'll deal damage over time to combat the shield regen while still stacking high damage to kill flesh and partial armor strip. (with the reduced damage reduction boosting its total output and scaling greatly.

This is fine as you'll never be able to fully move away players from a lazy generalist build. the primed faction mods have been massive damage boosts for forever and very rarely used even against high level scaling content.

Making Other damage types worth using though is great and we could use more dynamic mods to enable alternative build archetypes.

even after change the weapons will still be the same for the most part

Crit, Heat/toxin/Slash stackers, hybrid crit, CO Proccer. you'll enable a different mod in place of the same 60/60's depending on faction but won't really be able to change the dynamic that much.

you have rare niche build interactions outside of that are really interesting and would be nice to see mods further empower more dynamic scaling options

one of my favorite examples recently is cascadia empowered on beam weapons. As it deals damage per status applied allowing beam weapons to scale with fire rate and status chance without crit/base damage.

Would like to see with the status rework some mods to fully enable true status weapons, as currently your status is so tied to your base hit damage that hybrid crit weapons often perform the best.

Something like Status effect damage +XXX% or Status Effects are inflicted as if dealing XXX% higher damage to enable building a hard hitting low stack Status stacker to finally enable you to use Non-Crit weapons/self buffers against the stack limited boss enemies.

in a different vein. Many of the capped status effects feel bad to invest into building because your stacks are wasted. There's no reason to further invest in a cold status weapon like glaxion if you already immediately hit your cold stack cap. would be nice if there was a mod that provided similar baseline functionality to cascadia empwored or maybe something like when you inflict a status on a stack capped enemy deal XXX damage or gain X% damage for X seconds.

But it could also be nice to enable more interesting weapon build affects. like a mod that makes it so if you kill a frozen enemy it deals a portion of its health to nearby enemies sorta like a conditional acid shells. or a mod enabling when inflicting multiple status effects on target simultaneously create a secondary alchemy explosion dealing damage and spreading effects in an area. 

As a separate note it would be great if gas could either lose its stack cap or make it so it only considers the highest value procs

[IceBen]

There goes one of my favorite Warframe things I guess D:

[Slamminslug]

Big fan of these mostly. Glad to finally see blast get some love. 

[VENDOMINUS]

On 2024-04-28 at 7:09 PM, DstroyR said:

Well, without armor strip Corrupted Jackal in his current state still can be a problem, especialy solo after 16-18 round of SP Circuit. It is nearly gridlock, when only option to deal with him it is melee combat, if out of ammo. Yeah, his attacks are less deadly now, but he still not eazy to kill and he still to dangerous guy, espacialy at lvl cap reached. Also, he can`t be completely frozen, but cold can so slow him. So, decrees like "Lucinia suffering", "Critical frost" and "Shattering cold" are very helpful, even more than weapon with cold mods. Corrupted Jackal, completely immuned to cold status, it is kinda nigtmare for solo SP Circuit players like me.

You can kill lv.9999 corupted jackal with just a 7X7 amp as long as you have persistent attrition. With more decrees like corrosive shots, cold on crit and such it become fast even.

 

For the armor changes, I have a much simpler solution that is a lot easier to code, than doing what they say they're going to do. I suggest changing the armor and armor reduction from corrosive to change to a % based system.

If a Grineer unit currently has 97% DR and you strip 80% of it with 10 corrosive stacks it would have 20% of it's armor and it's DR would go to 0.97 * 0.2 = 0.194 or 19.4% DR. Imo that's the simplest way of fixing the current armor system instead of inventing a new curve and wonder why things are still the same, while spending months on it.

To compensate hp in general will have to go up to almost new infested levels. You won't need to fully strip things to kill everything, but if you don't have any armor strip whatsoever, you'll be out of luck. 

This approach keeps the current need to learn how to deal with armor, while not forcing you to have fullstrip setups. If we add the proposed change to puncture damage, then you'll always have a way to eventually kill enemies as long as your weapon can do at least puncture. This will save a lot of time and costs for DE, since they won't have to change the armor values of each enemy, or go for the flawed approach they are currently thinking of.

 

On a side not, can you please do something about Xaku flying guns, tanking damage attinuation to it's max values in no time flat. I understand it not dealing major damage, but making it so that all attacks that should be doing hundreds of thousands of damage, do like 100 in less than 3 sec is a bit silly.

[Darkbring]

Corpus and Infested should still differentiate between Health types, as both factions have Biological and Mechanical units.

Edited April 30 by Darkbring

[Azamagon]

With these new changes, you said that minimum armor on enemies will be increased. With that in mind, will the melee mod Shattering Impact see any changes?

[Azamagon]

Im happy to hear about the armorcap on enemies, as that will help out the struggling elements a bunch, while still keeping armorstrip as a good tool. That means that if you bring the "wrong" elements into the mission, you can at least brute force it a bit more easily (even if it is still not recommended).

However, the blanket faction damagetype weaknesses/resistances seems to be a step in the wrong direction, as with such an oversimplification, choosing your elements matters even less - but not in a good way, imo.

For example, i liked the different useage you had with Corrosive (light units + Gunner) and Radiation (elites, Bombard/Napalm and bosses), especially on non-status heavy weapons.

With the elemental oversimplification, some elements (like Radiation), might become the new "worst element" instead. And it's gonna be so weird that Crewmen and Robots will have the same weaknesses, for example.

Imo, while the armornerf is great and healthy, strength-variety in the elements should be kept - and ALL elements' status effects need a look over too, not just some of them.

I think the general approach to elemental modding could look more like this:

1) If i want utility or certain combat-approach-changers, i mod for X element and make sure i have a weapon with good status chance. For example: Corrosive for armorstrip, or Blast/Gas/Electricity for a variety of AoE combat boosters.

2) If i want good upfront damage versus certain units, i mod for Y element with the status-chance being less important. For example: Radiation to kill troublesome heavy units.

This already exists in some ways today, but some damage-types and status-effects served no purpose (Blast being bad as both a damagetype and status effect, for example), and THAT needs a change - and im happy to see the changes to Blast and Cold, for example.

But with the simplification, all that other nuance will be completely lost :(

[meownntown]

all is well until i get to the damage portion of this dev workshop.

 

was very excited to hear that there would be a rework to enemy scaling and damage types, but it really doesn't feel like it's going to be that impactful. i honestly felt like you were meant to use armor stripping against Grineer because thats their whole thing, is having armor. making Corpus shields regenerate faster means nothing when every single build I utilize already uses multishot, which bypasses shield gating by hitting the enemy multiple times in one hit. another addition to the armor scaling update could be to reduce the effectiveness of corrosive damage so that you have to couple it with other effects like fire damage for the increased armor strip. also making more mods like shattering impact that reduce armor per hit could be useful. to make Corpus shields more meaningful, perhaps things that give shields like Shield Ospery and the like can give overshield aswell, to increase the amount of shield you must deplete in order to kill Corpus. Shields have no benefit to armor and it's difficult to reduce damage taken to shield. Perhaps utilizing the Comba Corpus more often could be helpful aswell, giving that enemy type a rework to reduce damage to shields and perhaps vent Gas damage and the like.

 

in regards to the damage changes, i feel like there is a lot of potential to make damage types amazing, but not a lot has been told to us aside from the Cold damage rework. I think that the Cold damage is cool (get it?) but has a lot of flaws with it. The fact that bosses are immune to the Crit Damage increase is such a missed opportunity to me, because if youre building for cold damage, then you are ideally trying to get all of the Crit Damage, right? removing the ability to gain that extra damage against bosses greatly reduces the effectiveness of the build to me. the freezing effect sounds cool, but the synergies that it provides are minimal. Perhaps there can be a certain "damage threshold" to frozen enemies, like the Mercy killing, where if you reach that threshold, it deals burst cold damage to the target and gives them a debuff? Something more than just "you deal more critical damage" because there is already enough of that with Mods alone.

 

Blast could possible have a concussive effect that stuns or blinds enemies. maybe it could even have the added benefit of disarming enemies, since the explosions could destroy enemy equipment. also increasing the radius of the explosion correlating to the amount of Blast damage could be fun. Blast being more "destructive" and powerful sounds like a step in the right direction. Magnetic damage could create vortexes or push enemies away, and the effect is stronger based on how many stacks that enemy has. Also having Magnetic damage act like an EMP for Corpus type enemies could be very beneficial. Gas damage needs more of a bonus than increased radius and better visibility. Gas damage has always been the worst damage type in my opinion. one possibility for Gas damage could be a similar effect to Radiation, but instead it causes the enemies to become pacified or confused. Like during the summer beach event where Kela goes crazy from the gas leak.

[MaxAltair]

Toxin mostly useful against minor corpus units ... I like how it is since 2014. And I have fun with it

Certain corpus enemies has Protoshields, and other has armor which has resistance to toxin, taking longer to kill (like Oxium Osprey, Jackal...). So its a good tradeoff
Please dont complain against toxine.

I have played other MMORPG and has experineced many factors like elemental damage and magic.

In other game, Toxic damage does damage actual to remaining HP, makes enemies stagger, coughing....  And here comes MY IDEA

GAS IMPROVEMENT:
Want give a buff to gas?
-gas produce a cloud 6m spherical (whose radius can be increased with Warframe ability range and duration)
-enemies which get INSIDE cloud, get a GAS proc.💀 For 6 seconds (Non acumulative)
-receiving a gas proc will alter behavior. acting erratic, stagger.. or coughing. They can try to get away from cloud
-enemies affected by gas proc will receive TRUE damage equal to 10% of the CURRENT HP, per second
-Resistance or weakness just rely on how often enemies can get a Gas Proc 💀 inside cloud. Enemies with Shield Active may be inmune to GAS, Since we have Toxine for corpus and give use to magnetic disabling shields.

OTHER FEATURES:
Damage Reflection from enemies. Have not seen this in game and would be interesting, especially on high levels.

 

[Kaokasalis]

On 2024-04-26 at 6:00 PM, [DE]Sam said:

-SNIP-

How is the simplification of the enemy resistances going to affect Vulpaphyla and Predasites that have been bred with Mutagens to have specific resistances?

[Zibop]

The more I think about the health changes the less sense they make.

Not only do they:

Reduce the flavor in the game by removing the identities of different factions and enemy types have by making everything generic,

Lead to nonsensical situations like flesh and robots being affected the same by different damage types,

Completely remove potentially interesting choices and gameplay situations caused by different types of enemies within the same faction having different resistances, (Such as Heavy Gunners having Ferrite Armor instead of Alloy like most of the Grineer.)

But they also completely fail at simplifying the game and instead make it even more granular and tedious by making different planets within the same faction have different resistances. So now instead of having to just worry about what faction you are facing you now also have to worry about the planet they're on.

I really hope you reconsider these changes as they make no sense in my opinion.

Edited April 30 by Zibop

[Eiddew]

Will these changes impact enemy damage to other enemies, or no because EHP remains about the same as now?

Radiation and Nyx suffer quite a bit because of how the damage they deal applies to us vs them.

[OrionTCB]

11 hours ago, Orokin said:

On 2024-04-29 at 5:13 PM, OrionTCB said:

The problem is that the current curve is non-linear, that's why Corrosive just dies at some point. At 100 armor we have 25%, at 200 = 40%, 300 = 50% and so on until it reaches the "threshold". At 1000 we have ~77%, 2000 = ~87%, 3000 = ~91% and at 10000 = ~97%. An Exo Gokstad Officier (only RJ) has +1M armor at level cap which is 99.97% DR, that's a ×3339 damage loss. Yikes.

The current curve makes it so that too much armor isn't necessary on frames. Why bother going above 300 (50% DR) ? It's too hard to reach the next "good threshold".

You are misunderstanding how armor works. Please figure out how to calculate EHP and adjust your opinion. 

Do you mean to say that going from 10k armor to 2k isn't only a DR% side of things, since total EHP is also reduced ? Yeah I know. Going from 10k armor to 2k (using 10 Corrosive stacks) reduces the total DR% of ~97% to ~87%, which means that if you have 10k HP, your EHP would go down from ~333k EHP to ~77k EHP → the whole thing got divided by ~4.

Also, why should I "adjust" my opinion ? Because you feel it's wrong ? I don't think it is, I'm also not saying it's a good one, nor is it the best by any mean, but It's mine, I wrote everything knowing full well how the game runs so I will stand firmly. Now now, I don't need to point the obvious, reducing enemy EHP from 1/3 of a million to 1/13 is a huge gain, I'm not denying it, but I wasn't talking about your everyday armor and SP enemies, I was aiming towards "extremes", such as level cap SP where even if you go down from 1M armor to 200k on a 1M HP enemy, it's still stupid high (~3B to 667M EHP btw).

The "threshold" I was referring to is hard to define, it would be like the exact moment where reducing armor (not 100% strip) won't do much anymore, like "stop bothering, just go 100% strip" or "why should I keep hitting this wall when I can just ignore it with bleed ?". It is also the exact same point where Corrosive dies. That's why I also suggested for a linear-curve 'cause I feel it's more manageable on DE's side and "easier" to grasp how much DR% you get from armor at a glance, someone pointed out how bad it would be, but I can't seem to see how, if it's managed well, there is no reason for it to fail (that might where the "bad" comes in, but Idk). Also, I still feel like that if Corrosive affected base armor instead of current (total), we wouldn't be talking about how armor is "too much".

Since you also quoted my comment on frames, I'll say this : Warframes cannot go sky high, since none builds for armor (besides Rhino users) or health really (again, besides Inaros users this time), it doesn't matter, it's not worth investing into armor, 'cause 1) most frames have a base 33%-50% DR, that's already good enough and 2) we have Adaptation, Rolling Guard and Shield gating. Also, don't forget that at high level, no matter how much DR% you have (be it armor + adaptation and whatnot), enemies will simply start to oneshot you if you're not playing around the shield gating mechanic.

Obviously, the DR% (or should I say EHP multiplier ?) having a cap is gonna solve a lot of high level problem.

Edited May 1 by OrionTCB

[MaxAltair]

Well. Whats the point of faction mods then? If every Units from a faction are planned to have same resistance/weakenss?
And then a same unit In a node/world may have different weakness/resistance?
Whats the point of studiying the codex and units type with their variety of features and composition? Studying Types of Flesh Armor Shields...

This simplification is turning WF into a pokemon kids game?
I came back after 10 years just to see this... Never expected that silly changes.
 

[Grimmpup]

Been having a lot of thoughts about the proposed changes and while we like the direction the game's going with them, there's a couple of points we feel are important to emphasize after pondering for a bit and reading through the replies (apologies if these are too scattered, might refine/edit later):

- Gas needs to be looked at for better QoL than just visibility; strong gas DoT procs can be overridden by weak ones, resulting in the damage being highly inconsistent especially in public settings. We're not familiar enough with its mechanics to say if it needs buffs, but at the very least it should be given a pass for consistency.

- The changes to magnetic ultimately aren't going to matter when toxin bypasses shields entirely & has been the established meta for dealing with corpus; someone in this thread (Casardis) had a great suggestion where toxin is adjusted to where the direct damage doesn't bypass shields but the status still does & is buffed to have more output (which also prevents enemies with toxin from one-shotting players) & I think something like it would be great to make damaging shields more viable while still keeping toxin's unique properties. But unless something is done to reign in toxin's effects, imo magnetic or any other form of shield damage is never going to be worth using.

- Desperately hoping that the armor changes don't make enemies too squishy. Armor's definitely too demanding of a mechanic in its current state bc it requires you to build around it, but at the same time enemies feel too easy to kill when said armor is dealt with (and enemies with no armor to begin with are even easier to deal with). If the time-to-kill ends up being off from how it currently is, it might honestly be healthier for the game if enemies were a little more durable than they are now. Not to the point where they feel like bullet sponges, but enough to where they're not as easy to plow through as they are now.

- And it may not be a popular opinion but... there's a good possibility that viral will just, be too powerful after the HP changes and need to be nerfed in some way... Slash might be fine in a vacuum since enemies will have more HP for it to chew through, but the ability of viral procs to do more damage to enemy HP is going to be even more meta for the same reason, and nothing short of outright nerfing or reworking it is going to stop it from being universally applicable. imo it's fundamentally badly designed because there's no circumstance where amplifying hp damage dealt won't be highly sought after and mandatory on any good build, but maybe there's a way of balancing it where this aspect can still work that I'm just not seeing.

Edited May 1 by Grimmpup
refined last point to focus on viral specifically