Let us Pick Deep Archimedea rewards

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SneakyErvin:

I mean, you get uhm 8 attempts at them per week, 5 from EDA with increasing chance and 3 from Cells. How many of those arcanes can you possibly need in the end?

Plus they are both for the most part utter and total trash. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how those two arcanes got the lego status instead of exposure and influence. Someone making decisions at DE was dead drunk the day the rarity of the arcanes were distributed.

I like melee double hits, that's all

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

I like melee double hits, that's all

I would too if we werent able to reach orange crits as easily as we do, and if influence didnt exsists which practically lets us hit multiple enemies several times over without any limit on our crit stat.

[HeavyFarms]

17 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

You may have misuderstood. It was never advertised as that. And the loot tables make it impossible.

Deep Archimedea | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

You can use them or sell them.

that's great. 

I wanted archon shards. You can't purchase or trade those. I have multiple ways to get arcanes. I have limited ways to get archon shards. 

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I would too if we werent able to reach orange crits as easily as we do, and if influence didnt exsists which practically lets us hit multiple enemies several times over without any limit on our crit stat.

that melee arcane should just double hit any crit tbh. 

no other arcane for primaries or secondaries hampers itself like that. 

[HeavyFarms]

15 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Granted different people, different priorities and all that. 

That's why I made the suggestion to just have each person in DA have void relic like rewards, so if one person rolls an arcane you want, or another person rolls a shard, you can actually choose between rng rolls. 

Would feel better than just melee adapters :T

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

2 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

That's why I made the suggestion to just have each person in DA have void relic like rewards, so if one person rolls an arcane you want, or another person rolls a shard, you can actually choose between rng rolls. 

Would feel better than just melee adapters :T

 

Yeah thats what I generally figured, and whilst I don't necessarily think DE will let us choose, I definitely agree with your suggestion and idea. I personally dislike many RNG systems, RNG reward systems, I understand the arguments for and against, but yeah. Also to be clear, I still think its good to suggest and bring up (even if I am unsure about whether DE will make the change). 

Its the sort of thing they may generally improve a little, over time, (like how they originally implemented a pity system for Archon Hunts like 8 months after, removing the normal Melee Arcanes etc), but they never really go for all out player choice, discretion around rewards. One of my mates never got a Tau shard despite doing Archon Hunts almost every week, until the pity system. Know a few people who have gotten 4 Melee Adapters in EDA. Its... yeah... 

[Zakkhar]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

Ok thanks man, good to know I "didn't hear what I wanted to hear" like the guy accused me of. 

That is NOT what I said. That is not even opposite to what I said. And it sure as hell was not any accusation.

Here is a full quote with context so anyone can judge:

 

Edited May 18 by Zakkhar

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

that's great. 

I wanted archon shards. You can't purchase or trade those. I have multiple ways to get arcanes. I have limited ways to get archon shards. 

that melee arcane should just double hit any crit tbh. 

no other arcane for primaries or secondaries hampers itself like that. 

Man, this is a wild discussion. 😂 

Regarding melee Duplicate, tink about weapons that are not crit based. The Mire is a really good example since it has an ultra low crit chance (CC) and crit damage (CD). Even if you obtain a riven, use Umbra mods, blood rush and the gladiator mods, you will never get to orange crit. However, if you had a double hit per yellow crit, you can now see a completely new, obtainable and sustainable "orange crit" Mire (a high raw damage, very high stat chance monster, with a viral AoE that also replenishes energy). And it gets better because that free second crit hit means double the stat procs, double the additional stat proc chance, double the raw damage values, double the 12x combo counter Tennokai heavy attacks, double the slam damage (with toxic proc) and, essentially double the attack speed. This is why it is a legendary arcane.

As for you wanting the shards, you will eventually get them. It's a play and see, no different than every other player. You'll get them soon enough. However, there's no rush.

[L3512]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Man, this is a wild discussion. 😂 

Yes it is extremely short sighted, a powerful acrane that benefits less used weapons is fine. The other melee arcanes are all pretty good so nothing is missing out.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

that melee arcane should just double hit any crit tbh. 

no other arcane for primaries or secondaries hampers itself like that. 

Yup, agreed! And if they wanna somehow limit how much crit interacts with it they could simply do the following.

All hits trigger the arcane for double strikes, but the extra strike can never deal more than a yellow crit. So you would end up with yellow+yellow, oj+yellow, red+yellow, red2+yellow and so on depending on the crit of your weapon.

12 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Man, this is a wild discussion. 😂 

Regarding melee Duplicate, tink about weapons that are not crit based. The Mire is a really good example since it has an ultra low crit chance (CC) and crit damage (CD). Even if you obtain a riven, use Umbra mods, blood rush and the gladiator mods, you will never get to orange crit. However, if you had a double hit per yellow crit, you can now see a completely new, obtainable and sustainable "orange crit" Mire (a high raw damage, very high stat chance monster, with a viral AoE that also replenishes energy). And it gets better because that free second crit hit means double the stat procs, double the additional stat proc chance, double the raw damage values, double the 12x combo counter Tennokai heavy attacks, double the slam damage (with toxic proc) and, essentially double the attack speed. This is why it is a legendary arcane.

As for you wanting the shards, you will eventually get them. It's a play and see, no different than every other player. You'll get them soon enough. However, there's no rush.

But why though? You could instead just use influence and deal heavy viral AoE constantly by combining base damage+augment+pfs+cold mod, then slap an electric mod on it for the buff uptime. Which also gives you a chance at spreading toxin through slams along with viral. I mean, we are looking at near 26 meters of devastation instead of 6.

[MutoManiac]

I also did EDA and DA a few times and the rewards socked. Now I just do the less painful Netracells and get a nice mix of shards and legendary arcanes. People always like to point that you get more rewards from DA, but more isn’t necessarily better when you are not enjoying yourself. Now if I did pre-made which I don’t, it might be less painful to do DA.

I like your idea to be able to choose the rewards. It could be justified because of the difficulty, although this week, it’s an easy one.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yup, agreed! And if they wanna somehow limit how much crit interacts with it they could simply do the following.

All hits trigger the arcane for double strikes, but the extra strike can never deal more than a yellow crit. So you would end up with yellow+yellow, oj+yellow, red+yellow, red2+yellow and so on depending on the crit of your weapon.

But why though? You could instead just use influence and deal heavy viral AoE constantly by combining base damage+augment+pfs+cold mod, then slap an electric mod on it for the buff uptime. Which also gives you a chance at spreading toxin through slams along with viral. I mean, we are looking at near 26 meters of devastation instead of 6.

Yep, I'm happily aware or what melee Influence does with the Mire. But I'm also very happy with what it does with melee Duplicate. The main point of all of these arcanes is they exist as options. Zaws have an arcane that is already similar to melee Influence and can double dip with it...or use melee Duplicate for another devastating effect, all meaning that a weapon's base stats no longer has to just shift the weapon in one main direction anymore. I think this is the reason why it is a legendary arcane: it changes the functional biases of many weapons. 

Another way to think about this is that Duplicate relieve a build of several mods, opening up new options that players rarely think of outside of just meta talk. Blood Rush can be replaced with another Tennokai mod, Life Strike, the Carnis 90/60 mods or more raw physical or elemental damage mods. Either way, the door is open for experimentation on weapons that meta huggers don't bother to look at (like wide striking whips that will now double crit hit). That's a universal win for all melee weapons and something I would expect from a legendary arcane.

[Steeldragonz]

Got to be honest after the few few DA, i havent bothered doing it again. I would rather just take my chances with the normal Netracell runs. Its not like im short on shards in the first place. But DA drop rates i dont feel justify my time.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Yep, I'm happily aware or what melee Influence does with the Mire. But I'm also very happy with what it does with melee Duplicate. The main point of all of these arcanes is they exist as options. Zaws have an arcane that is already similar to melee Influence and can double dip with it...or use melee Duplicate for another devastating effect, all meaning that a weapon's base stats no longer has to just shift the weapon in one main direction anymore. I think this is the reason why it is a legendary arcane: it changes the functional biases of many weapons. 

Another way to think about this is that Duplicate relieve a build of several mods, opening up new options that players rarely think of outside of just meta talk. Blood Rush can be replaced with another Tennokai mod, Life Strike, the Carnis 90/60 mods or more raw physical or elemental damage mods. Either way, the door is open for experimentation on weapons that meta huggers don't bother to look at (like wide striking whips that will now double crit hit). That's a universal win for all melee weapons and something I would expect from a legendary arcane.

That double dip is long gone and the only thing the exodia shares is that it deals some AoE damage. But how they work are widely different. And the base stats still need to shift in one direction for Duplicate, since you still need the same stats unless you've missed the mechanics of the arcane completely.

So the options arent really wider, they get more narrow even. Look at the arcane. It requires you to produce a crit in order to work, so skipping BR is a no go. The arcane really only suits a build on a weapon with a sweetspot crit that can achieve 100% crit or very close to it with BR maxed. You will never be able to give up crit if you want to use this arcane. On weapons with higher crit you could potentially skip BR and go Sac Steel to hit 100%, but at that point you also screw over your HAs, since their crit would suddenly be too high to trigger the arcane. You can potentially try and gamble and build for 150% crit, since the dupe hit can oj crit, but it is unreliable since you can end up dealing no dupe hit at all aswell since your first hit might also produce oj instead of yellow.

So I cant see the universal use in it, which also makes me question the lego status of the mod in comparison to exposure and influence.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That double dip is long gone and the only thing the exodia shares is that it deals some AoE damage. But how they work are widely different. And the base stats still need to shift in one direction for Duplicate, since you still need the same stats unless you've missed the mechanics of the arcane completely.

So the options arent really wider, they get more narrow even. Look at the arcane. It requires you to produce a crit in order to work, so skipping BR is a no go. The arcane really only suits a build on a weapon with a sweetspot crit that can achieve 100% crit or very close to it with BR maxed. You will never be able to give up crit if you want to use this arcane. On weapons with higher crit you could potentially skip BR and go Sac Steel to hit 100%, but at that point you also screw over your HAs, since their crit would suddenly be too high to trigger the arcane. You can potentially try and gamble and build for 150% crit, since the dupe hit can oj crit, but it is unreliable since you can end up dealing no dupe hit at all aswell since your first hit might also produce oj instead of yellow.

So I cant see the universal use in it, which also makes me question the lego status of the mod in comparison to exposure and influence.

You actually explained its wide use perfectly, although you were trying to argue the opposite. I think the best comparison I can give is with the Atomos Incarnon. The last upgrade choice adds crit chance to Atomos, instantly making it a crit viable weapon. This changes most builds completely, even if you may not get to 100% crit chance. Why? Because a 90% chance to hit for (ex.) 3.4x the damage is HIGHLY worth building for. 

Now, let's look at a Zaw nikana full riven and Sacrificial mods build with (ex.) 80% CC, 4.0x CD, 140% Stat Chance, and very high raw damage with viral+heat+slash damage. Adding Gladiator Vice and Might would push me over 100% but not close enough to 200%. Adding Exodia (scales with damage mods and counter, but not crit) and Duplicate (second crit hit when 100% CC or more. ALSO applies status procs), means that I'm proc'ing all enemies around me with Exodia, while also double crit striking (again, with procs) all direct hit enemies. This provides a crowd controlling, crit boosting, stun locking (heat), multi-stat proc'ing Zaw that hits significantly harder than before AND provides some defense due to the burn proc. 

Now, is this your build? No, it's mine. However, both builds work very well for what the intent is. Influence and Duplicate both work but I think Duplicate works better for me....in this instance. 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-05-19 at 7:35 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

You actually explained its wide use perfectly, although you were trying to argue the opposite. I think the best comparison I can give is with the Atomos Incarnon. The last upgrade choice adds crit chance to Atomos, instantly making it a crit viable weapon. This changes most builds completely, even if you may not get to 100% crit chance. Why? Because a 90% chance to hit for (ex.) 3.4x the damage is HIGHLY worth building for. 

Now, let's look at a Zaw nikana full riven and Sacrificial mods build with (ex.) 80% CC, 4.0x CD, 140% Stat Chance, and very high raw damage with viral+heat+slash damage. Adding Gladiator Vice and Might would push me over 100% but not close enough to 200%. Adding Exodia (scales with damage mods and counter, but not crit) and Duplicate (second crit hit when 100% CC or more. ALSO applies status procs), means that I'm proc'ing all enemies around me with Exodia, while also double crit striking (again, with procs) all direct hit enemies. This provides a crowd controlling, crit boosting, stun locking (heat), multi-stat proc'ing Zaw that hits significantly harder than before AND provides some defense due to the burn proc. 

Now, is this your build? No, it's mine. However, both builds work very well for what the intent is. Influence and Duplicate both work but I think Duplicate works better for me....in this instance. 

I would really not consider that wide use when you need a certain amount of a stat to make it useful. Wide use would really be something like Exposure, which practically works on all weapons since the only requirement is the use of skills to keep the buff up. The difference between the Atomos example and the arcane is that the Atomos doesnt have addition options in the mods to really compete with increasing crit and thus benefitting from that perk. The arcane has competition that is easier to utilize while not limiting you in your mod selection or choice of weapon.

A legendary should be better in order to have the status of legendary. I mean in your example you need to go to lengths to get the same as you would with influence on a far more specific weapon aswell. If you want CC utility influence would still do it better and only require decent status on the weapon. While duplicate+exodia may allow you CC, influence would still do it at up to 29m depending on the weapon you pick, your combo does it at 6m or so. And if I need CC it is likely versus the guys 20m+ away, not those that will get hit by my melee anyways.

I'm not saying Dupe doesnt have its uses, I'm questioning the legendary status of it due to the massive niche. Same with the initial combo count arcane, which limits you to a build that can actually expose an enemy to finishers on a regular basis. Which makes me question how DE reasoned when they decided to make those two arcanes the legos and not influence and exposure that are far more universal due to their small limitations.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I would really not consider that wide use when you need a certain amount of a stat to make it useful. Wide use would really be something like Exposure, which practically works on all weapons since the only requirement is the use of skills to keep the buff up. The difference between the Atomos example and the arcane is that the Atomos doesnt have addition options in the mods to really compete with increasing crit and thus benefitting from that perk. The arcane has competition that is easier to utilize while not limiting you in your mod selection or choice of weapon.

A legendary should be better in order to have the status of legendary. I mean in your example you need to go to lengths to get the same as you would with influence on a far more specific weapon aswell. If you want CC utility influence would still do it better and only require decent status on the weapon. While duplicate+exodia may allow you CC, influence would still do it at up to 29m depending on the weapon you pick, your combo does it at 6m or so. And if I need CC it is likely versus the guys 20m+ away, not those that will get hit by my melee anyways.

I'm not saying Dupe doesnt have its uses, I'm questioning the legendary status of it due to the massive niche. Same with the initial combo count arcane, which limits you to a build that can actually expose an enemy to finishers on a regular basis. Which makes me question how DE reasoned when they decided to make those two arcanes the legos and not influence and exposure that are far more universal due to their small limitations.

Dup requires base crit, that's it. The other arcane makes all abilities, mods, attacks, stat sticks and arcanes that have a benefit from the combo counter, to have all of that power permanently on tap. Both of those features are gigantic power increases that also removes the need for several key mods, thus expanding use of your mod slots. 

For Duplicate, that means no need for Blood Rush in order to get a weapon up to 200% crit. 100%-199% will always trigger a second yellow or orange crit hit, complete with procs. 1%-99% will at least cause a second hit, up to a yellow crit, but those hits still can trigger procs. So, at the bare minimum, weapon power is more than tripled (crit hit+multiplier, and duplicate hit that could be a base hit or crit). It is an extremely powerful arcane with no drawbacks other than trying to get close to 100% crit.

The CC arcane is 12x counter all the time (when full), and is very easy to build in SP when all of the heavy and eximus enemies trigger finishers. It's the perfect arcane for longer runs, offers some safety (significantly faster kills), and sustains some of the most deadly attacks, such as Gara's 2 and 4, all slam attacks and all Tennokai attacks.

The reliability and insane power of both arcanes justify the legendary status, IMO. 

[Lord_Drod]

It is nice when you roll shards on every drop, ten is possible.  This happened to me this week, with 3 taus.  Imagine 9 taus and a freebie from bird.  That's a nice bag of skittles.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Lord_Drod:

It is nice when you roll shards on every drop, ten is possible.  This happened to me this week, with 3 taus.  Imagine 9 taus and a freebie from bird.  That's a nice bag of skittles.

I had it too. it was just a one-time thing. Most of the time it's just 2-4 normal shards and that's extremely little. especially if you need 2 old shards for 1 new one.
and there is content like sp circuit, which is about the maximum number of equipped warframes

[Lord_Drod]

3 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

I had it too. it was just a one-time thing. Most of the time it's just 2-4 normal shards and that's extremely little. especially if you need 2 old shards for 1 new one.
and there is content like sp circuit, which is about the maximum number of equipped warframes

Let me install 1 tau of every variant into the operator for something on sling...haha

Edited May 22 by Lord_Drod

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Dup requires base crit, that's it. The other arcane makes all abilities, mods, attacks, stat sticks and arcanes that have a benefit from the combo counter, to have all of that power permanently on tap. Both of those features are gigantic power increases that also removes the need for several key mods, thus expanding use of your mod slots. 

For Duplicate, that means no need for Blood Rush in order to get a weapon up to 200% crit. 100%-199% will always trigger a second yellow or orange crit hit, complete with procs. 1%-99% will at least cause a second hit, up to a yellow crit, but those hits still can trigger procs. So, at the bare minimum, weapon power is more than tripled (crit hit+multiplier, and duplicate hit that could be a base hit or crit). It is an extremely powerful arcane with no drawbacks other than trying to get close to 100% crit.

The CC arcane is 12x counter all the time (when full), and is very easy to build in SP when all of the heavy and eximus enemies trigger finishers. It's the perfect arcane for longer runs, offers some safety (significantly faster kills), and sustains some of the most deadly attacks, such as Gara's 2 and 4, all slam attacks and all Tennokai attacks.

The reliability and insane power of both arcanes justify the legendary status, IMO. 

And that is the whole thing that makes it not so legendary. You need pretty specific crit in order for it to give any real impact to a build, which not only requires a limited amount of melee weapons, but also removes certain options elsewhere in your build, further streamlining it into being made just for that arcane. You can for instance not carry Avenger to improve your secondary or primary at the same time, since that also throws your crit for the melee into a mess for the arcane. With the combo arcane, yeah it enables alot, but in most content you need to dedicate a skill in order to utilize it, because the chance for most things to survive and enable parazon is small.

While you dont need BR to reach 200%+ crit, you still need it to reach near 100% with the weapons that can make use of the arcane, since Sac Steel isnt reliable enough, while on a weapon with too much crit it gives you too much crit on your HA side of the build. So since you already need BR, there is little reason to grab a lower crit weapon just to use that arcane instead of simply using another arcane along with BR on a higher crit weapon.

It isnt like reaching 12x combo is hard on its own and maintaining it. You practically trade a focus school for an arcane, or an already universal weapon for the pseudo frames that also brings you the stats you want for a stat stick. It also does nothing for Tennokai, since those are already free.

[FiveN9ne]

I'd rather EDA drop exclusively shards and nothing else. You can still get Legendary Arcanes from regular Netracells. Elite Archimedea should be mostly Tau shards. Not to mention that after more and more people complete the arcanes it will become trash loot. If you think prices will remain high after everyone starts selling their extra copies, think again. Even now, 40p for an arcane that's a possible weekly drop is trash and overvalued. You can make 10x that plat in an hour running random relics.

Another thing. 3 regulars for 1 Tau is also bs conversion. 1 Tau is 50% stronger than a regular shards but requires 3 for some reason.. 2 would have been more than fair. A shard exchange should also be a thing. Why am i forced to have 20 Tau Azure shards and never use any of them? Nothing worse than unusable weekly gated loot. Let me trade a Blue Tau for another Tau. Then when you look at the combined shards, you need 6 regulars for 1 combined Tau. This is also bs and their power doesn't nearly justify the cost. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

10 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

I'd rather EDA drop exclusively shards and nothing else. You can still get Legendary Arcanes from regular Netracells. Elite Archimedea should be mostly Tau shards.

I'd be happy with Netracells dropping exclusively normal shards, while EDA drops the tau shards and legendary arcanes.

Those melee arcane adapters do not belong anywhere near endgame content (not even Netracells), put them in bounties or something accessible.

[Lord_Drod]

1 hour ago, FiveN9ne said:

I'd rather EDA drop exclusively shards and nothing else. You can still get Legendary Arcanes from regular Netracells. Elite Archimedea should be mostly Tau shards. Not to mention that after more and more people complete the arcanes it will become trash loot. If you think prices will remain high after everyone starts selling their extra copies, think again. Even now, 40p for an arcane that's a possible weekly drop is trash and overvalued. You can make 10x that plat in an hour running random relics.

Another thing. 3 regulars for 1 Tau is also bs conversion. 1 Tau is 50% stronger than a regular shards but requires 3 for some reason.. 2 would have been more than fair. A shard exchange should also be a thing. Why am i forced to have 20 Tau Azure shards and never use any of them? Nothing worse than unusable weekly gated loot. Let me trade a Blue Tau for another Tau. Then when you look at the combined shards, you need 6 regulars for 1 combined Tau. This is also bs and their power doesn't nearly justify the cost. 

So true.  I can't believe people are crafting all of their normies.  I have no desire to wipe my reserve pool.  They are way too expensive to craft.  I knew it wouldn't be worth it though like pretty much every crafting BP.

I need 120 of a shard to craft out 10 taus and that's not even looking at fused shards (I mean where I could just toss out 30).  Tbh, I'm still not too interested in the fused shards.  They're too niche use.  Melee cd, blast, toxin, rad, ability damage on electric, electric damage.  Why would I shard for any of this?

Even corrosive stacks.  What's this enemy I need to strip after putting 12-13 corrosive stacks on that isn't a mech?  Outside of melee, beam weapons, and saryn/citrine or companion (where it also doesn't work)?

When would I use this over viral?  When would it be worth it to waste a shard slot on?  When do you need to passive stripping when you're not using a helminth strip or unairu?  

I still test things out trying to make use of them though.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Everyone saying they don't need melee duplicate, hit me up on Xbox and give me a free set. Because I need it. :(

Edited May 23 by (XBOX)K1jker

[Venus-Venera]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Xylena_Lazarow:

I'd be happy with Netracells dropping exclusively normal shards, while EDA drops the tau shards and legendary arcanes.

Those melee arcane adapters do not belong anywhere near endgame content (not even Netracells), put them in bounties or something accessible.

mele arcanes definitely have to stay in the shop.
because some rewards are absolutely ridiculous and insult common sense. example: credits and endo rewards in sp circuit..................... there are no drops and after an hour of play there are only credits???? ???????????????????????