Steam Forums and Pride Month

[ToastyGrimlock98]

1 hour ago, MagPrime said:

As far back as the second century, men in medicine believed that women suffered from "wandering womb," a condition that was described as the womb roaming the body in search of fluids to prepare for the monthly menstrual cycle and one risk associated with this condition was suffocation.  This belief was so enduring that when trains became a common form of transportation, women were discouraged from riding them because doctors believed their wombs would fly out of their bodies due to the trains speed.  This was known as a biological "fact" in the medical community for centuries.  Advancements in medical science, completely changed women's healthcare.  

Within our lifetime, we have been able to identify which gene on which chromosome carries the information on sex, SRY on the Y, and how many other genes play a role in development.  The "redefinition" of biology is happening as our understanding of it improves.

Language changes constantly.  If it didn't, we wouldn't be using words the way we do right now.  The word "they" was first used in the 1300's and it made people angrier than today, simply for being a new word.  Beyond dead languages, there is no "pure" language that never evolves.

Except we’re not learning anything new. We’re just ignoring biology, putting psychological states over biology, and claiming that’s the only important aspect of a persons identity.

Language changes for convenience. Deciding that “man” and “woman” are now words that effectively mean nothing and are just labels we can assign ourselves with our own definitions (that usually involve using the words themselves. Which invalidates those as definitions) is not convenient. 

Have you seriously never taken a step back and looked at how insanely complicated the gender ideology is? And that’s the thing we’re supposed to treat as absolute normal? Something we’re supposed to all just inherently understand? It’s not. And quite frankly I find it completely redundant as Mammal biology is binary. So there’s literally no practical reason to be something outside “man” or “woman”. Which just makes me question why we’re all even entertaining all of this in the first place.

[Letter13]

2 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

And quite frankly I find it completely redundant as Mammal biology is binary.

At a purely gamete level, yes, it is binary. But the physiological systems of the body are outrageously complex and cannot always be classified as binary. Chimeras exist, where a human can have two sets of DNA (of which one could be male, and one female). Intersex organisms also exist--including intersex humans. As many as 6% of all humans born are actually intersex, in which their chromosomes and/or reproductive organs do not fit neatly into or match the 'male or female' binary you're describing.

So, what do we do for people who at a biological level do not neatly fall into the male or female category? For the last half century we've basically been subjecting infant newborns to surgeries and treatments to try and make them 'fit' into either the male or female category; these surgeries and treatments aren't required for their wellbeing, it isn't actually fixing anything... it's more or less cosmetic and to satisfy the need to make things either male or female, with no option for something in between.

And, if I recall, you were also bringing up stories about children being subjected to treatments against their will and how that's wrong... so, teapot meet kettle.

 

2 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

We’re just ignoring biology, putting psychological states over biology

Psychological states can have a tremendous impact on one's biology; it's often called a psychosomatic response, and while we know it can occur, we still don't entirely know how much or how deeply the mind can affect the body (though we do know it's a lot). If your focus is someone's wellbeing, you need to factor in more than just basic biology... when it comes to health and wellbeing, the mental aspect is just as important as the physical.

Being comfortable in one's own body is incredibly important for mental wellbeing. And for those who are already comfortable with their own bodies, it's sometimes very difficult to understand just how unsettling and unnerving it can be to have something like gender dysphoria.

 

2 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Have you seriously never taken a step back and looked at how insanely complicated the gender ideology is?

It's probably not much worse than actual sexual biology is (which is profoundly complicated, believe it or not). The core of it is 'Things are not always X or Y, they can sometimes be W, Q, Z  or V'. You're not being asked to know every single facet and nuance of it... you're just being asked to acknowledge that they exist and deserve the same rights as everyone else.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

At a purely gamete level, yes, it is binary. But the physiological systems of the body are outrageously complex and cannot always be classified as binary. Chimeras exist, where a human can have two sets of DNA (of which one could be male, and one female). Intersex organisms also exist--including intersex humans. As many as 6% of all humans born are actually intersex, in which their chromosomes and/or reproductive organs do not fit neatly into or match the 'male or female' binary you're describing.

So, what do we do for people who at a biological level do not neatly fall into the male or female category? For the last half century we've basically been subjecting infant newborns to surgeries and treatments to try and make them 'fit' into either the male or female category; these surgeries and treatments aren't required for their wellbeing, it isn't actually fixing anything... it's more or less cosmetic and to satisfy the need to make things either male or female, with no option for something in between.

And, if I recall, you were also bringing up stories about children being subjected to treatments against their will and how that's wrong... so, teapot meet kettle.

 

Psychological states can have a tremendous impact on one's biology; it's often called a psychosomatic response, and while we know it can occur, we still don't entirely know how much or how deeply the mind can affect the body (though we do know it's a lot). If your focus is someone's wellbeing, you need to factor in more than just basic biology... when it comes to health and wellbeing, the mental aspect is just as important as the physical.

Being comfortable in one's own body is incredibly important for mental wellbeing. And for those who are already comfortable with their own bodies, it's sometimes very difficult to understand just how unsettling and unnerving it can be to have something like gender dysphoria.

 

It's probably not much worse than actual sexual biology is (which is profoundly complicated, believe it or not). The core of it is 'Things are not always X or Y, they can sometimes be W, Q, Z  or V'. You're not being asked to know every single facet and nuance of it... you're just being asked to acknowledge that they exist and deserve the same rights as everyone else.

And now the modern approach is to do the same thing to young kids that already fit in? Simply on the 0.01% chance they may be trans? Because the ever reducing age of suggested affirmation is deeply concerning. And the approach people are taking with it even more so. The idea of going and telling a bunch of highly impressionable kids that don’t even have proper communication skills yet this incredibly complicated ideology. It will only lead to misunderstandings and someone going through something they never actually had to.
The kid I mentioned earlier who’s mother is pushing him through transitioning despite fully admitting he isn’t actually trans was 6 years old when I talked to his mother. I don’t care what scientific data you pull up. Nothing justifies doing that to a kid.

You know what you call Chimeras and Intersex? Birth defects. A screw up in the biological oven.  It’s an unfortunate circumstance, but by no means should their existence completely deconstruct our understanding of human biology. We don’t create new gender identities for every two headed baby, do we? 
 

Also Intersex people will usually either identify as strictly male or female. So while putting them through surgery as early as possible isn’t the best way to handle it. Surgery is ultimately performed eventually.

I fully recognize that gender dysphoria is a condition. But I also feel that the currently accepted treatment does far more harm than good. Why change the body? Why make their existence more difficult by making them an easy subject of judgment? And the response is always, “Well you shouldn’t be judging them. You need to validate them so they can be happy”. And my response to that is “Any form of happiness that requires the validation of others is not true happiness”.

 

I cannot support any cause that would give such an obtuse response to questioning as “You don’t need to understand it, just accept it”.

Edited June 6 by ToastyGrimlock98

[(PSN)Unstar]

37 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

It's probably not much worse than actual sexual biology is (which is profoundly complicated, believe it or not). The core of it is 'Things are not always X or Y, they can sometimes be W, Q, Z  or V'. You're not being asked to know every single facet and nuance of it... you're just being asked to acknowledge that they exist and deserve the same rights as everyone else.

It reminds me of a story I once heard where a group wanted to legally make the value of pi "3.14".  They thought that the current pi (3.14159, etc) was too complicated and they wanted to make it easier to work with.  Naturally, a bunch of folks in the physical sciences pointed out that sanding the edges off of pi would have real-world consequences.

And that's kind of what we have going on here with sex.  When we're kids, we're taught that there are boys and girls.  And like pi being equal to 3.14, that's a functional enough estimation early on.  But the reality is much more complex, and when you sand off the edges of reality to make it easier to grok, that causes real-world problems.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

Just now, (PSN)Unstar said:

It reminds me of a story I once heard where a group wanted to legally make the value of pi "3.14".  They thought that the current pi (3.14159, etc) was too complicated and they wanted to make it easier to work with.  Naturally, a bunch of folks in the physical sciences pointed out that sanding the edges off of pi would have real-world consequences.

And that's kind of what we have going on here with sex.  When we're kids, we're taught that there are boys and girls.  And like pi being equal to 3.14, that's a functional enough estimation early on.  But the reality is much more complex, and when you sand off the edges of reality to make it easier to grok, that causes real-world problems.

Hasn’t been a problem for the last 300,000 years of our existence.

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Hasn’t been a problem for the last 300,000 years of our existence.

Slavery wasn't a problem until fairly recently.  It turns out history is written by the victors.

[prodi1600]

I'm against all extremes, I have no problem with peoples preference, I mean its a personal thing, last US census shows about 7% of non-cis , lets say a bunch lied or avoided it so its about 12% people or so, bashing at the majority just because some bigots(downvoters) like to cry for everything its kind of meh.

There will always be A******s and goodish people in the world, I like to think the second are way more than the firsts.

 

[ToastyGrimlock98]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Slavery wasn't a problem until fairly recently.  It turns out history is written by the victors.

Kind of a false equivalency dontcha think.

Slaverys a relatively modern invention. What you’re suggesting is that somehow all the gender ideology stuff flew under the radar for 5,000 years of documentation.

Edited June 6 by ToastyGrimlock98

[(PSN)Unstar]

9 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

You know what you call Chimeras and Intersex? Birth defects

From an objective standpoint, how do you tell the difference between natural variation and a defect?  The answer is that you can't.

If you believe in evolution, then there's nothing that can be objectively called a defect; all life is the result of random variation, and via the process of survival of the fittest certain variations become more common while others become less common or even go extinct.  There is no right, there is no wrong, there's only what's passable enough to still be in play and what lost the game.

If you believe in some kind of creationism, then a defect would be something unintended by the creator.  So if "God" (or whoever) didn't intend for people to be born with moles, then that's a defect.  But of course, as humans, we can only guess at the intentions of gods.

So if we're honest, we have to admit that anything labeled as a "defect" has been labeled that way because of someone's subjective opinion.

[(PSN)Unstar]

6 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Kind of a false equivalency dontcha think.

Slaverys a relatively modern invention. What you’re suggesting is that somehow all the gender ideology stuff flew under the radar for 5,000 years of documentation.

History being written by the victors generally means that they don't include the narratives of those they're undermining, oppressing, or dismissing.  Especially when for most of history, common folk didn't have access to reading or writing.

But in spite of that, we do have historical accounts of people who we would nowadays refer to as trans.  I'm not an expert on those accounts, but if you look for them in earnest I'd be surprised if you were unable to find them.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

From an objective standpoint, how do you tell the difference between natural variation and a defect?  The answer is that you can't.

If you believe in evolution, then there's nothing that can be objectively called a defect; all life is the result of random variation, and via the process of survival of the fittest certain variations become more common while others become less common or even go extinct.  There is no right, there is no wrong, there's only what's passable enough to still be in play and what lost the game.

If you believe in some kind of creationism, then a defect would be something unintended by the creator.  So if "God" (or whoever) didn't intend for people to be born with moles, then that's a defect.  But of course, as humans, we can only guess at the intentions of gods.

So if we're honest, we have to admit that anything labeled as a "defect" has been labeled that way because of someone's subjective opinion.

Life exists on a bell curve. The majority is the norm. What I don’t like is people today acting like the people on the ends of that curve are right at the top of the bell.

Pretty sure we can label anything that prevents you from functioning normally can be considered a defect. Be it physically or mentally.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

History being written by the victors generally means that they don't include the narratives of those they're undermining, oppressing, or dismissing.  Especially when for most of history, common folk didn't have access to reading or writing.

But in spite of that, we do have historical accounts of people who we would nowadays refer to as trans.  I'm not an expert on those accounts, but if you look for them in earnest I'd be surprised if you were unable to find them.

Well the Greeks definitely weren’t shy about sexuality. You’d think that they at least would have had vast documentation on the stuff.

If you pull up Joan of Arc I’m going to slap you. The claim she was non-binary because she wore men’s armor (literally the only thing realistically available to someone of her social status at that time) is beyond ignorant.

And that’s the problem with trying to retroactively assign this stuff to history. You’ve got people so caught up in the movement and the ideology that they’re incapable of perceiving things outside of that context. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

6 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Life exists on a bell curve. The majority is the norm. What I don’t like is people today acting like the people on the ends of that curve are right at the top of the bell.

Pretty sure we can label anything that prevents you from functioning normally can be considered a defect. Be it physically or mentally.

Sure, you can label whatever you want...but you do so subjectively.  Deciding what's "normal", deciding where the "majority" ends and the "minority" begins, deciding what counts as "functioning"...all of that can only be determined based on subjective opinion.

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

Just because you Google some facts about biology doesn't make you an expert, just because some "experts" regurgitate something it doesn't make it a fact.

Some people just like being angry all the time, some people just want to be right all the time.

I just want Chroma to get a good buff, don't you feel just a bit silly discussing this in a forum of a live service game with space ninjas? 

No one really cares, only angry people do.

[Genitive]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

But in spite of that, we do have historical accounts of people who we would nowadays refer to as trans.  I'm not an expert on those accounts, but if you look for them in earnest I'd be surprised if you were unable to find them.

It's actually more than you'd think, especially in Asia.

[trst]

As someone who's had to personally deal with the worst of bad apples from within the LGBTQ+ community I can't say I'd be upset if it and the whole of Pride Month was never mentioned again.

That said I can acknowledge that not everyone's experience mirrors mine and as such I wouldn't want any of it taken from those who need it. Live and let live is easy when you simply stay away from something and keep to yourself. It's a shame that those who already have nothing to do with the community are the ones who want it taken down, misguided and false beliefs in science really do a number on people. 

[Caerith]

5 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

You know what you call Chimeras and Intersex? Birth defects.

Hmm.  Where have I heard someone calling others defective before?

4 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

What you’re suggesting is that somehow all the gender ideology stuff flew under the radar for 5,000 years of documentation.

Wonder what happened to that documentation.

4 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Life exists on a bell curve.

Only according to the book, The Bell Curve, that was written to justify the kind of people who did what was in the picture above.

4 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Well the Greeks definitely weren’t shy about sexuality. You’d think that they at least would have had vast documentation on the stuff.

Again with the documentation. 

Here's a hint:

The first books they burned in 1933 were all the books on sex and gender.  90 years later they're still banning and burning books on sex and gender.

Folks wonder why we still need Pride.  I wonder why we still need book burners.

[NeDesitVirtus]

In my eyes you are all Tenno, an individuated expression of a common Source. Some may call you children of the Void but I see you as children of the Creator clothed in the Created.

Your differences in how you express your True self authentically is something to be cherished. I don't necessarily need to completely understand to see you as an expression of the infinite light of the Cosmos ensconced in a human and then Tenno personification. You were created to not only challenge yourself towards self acceptance but to also challenge others towards letting go of their own biases. S courageous and challenging path indeed.

I'd not supplant the wisdom of this higher force of Intelligent Infinity which created all of the layers of the lived experience with my own limited understanding. 

So, along this vein I say you're all beautiful and worthy of love and respect even you shady Trade Chat schemers. Even you who dislike and seek to divest the Prideful of their desire for acknowledgement. And especially you who are provided a space of safety to express your True Self in the midst of a world that has not yet come to the understanding that all any human wants is dignity and respect - these things that transcend all cultures and societies...we are all children of the void, Tenno, battling the Indifference.

 

 

[Caerith]

Me: "Hey, you're sounding kinda, y'know... on the wrong side of history?"

You: "Only 'kinda'?  I will remove all doubts post-haste."

[L3512]

8 hours ago, Letter13 said:

Intersex organisms also exist--including intersex humans. As many as 6% of all humans born are actually intersex, in which their chromosomes and/or reproductive organs do not fit neatly into or match the 'male or female' binary you're describing.

Please stop repeating this 6% nonsense, by clinical definition the real figure is somewhere between 0.018 to 0.30%. Intersex charities and NGOs put the number at 1.7% (we recommend an upper bound figure of 1.7%, despite its flaws) even though that figure is inflated ~ 1.5% by a condition that is not clinically recognised as intersex.

For the sheer sake of your argument you cant have it both way.

People can identify as they wish and yet;

'the estimates of all known causes of nondimorphic sexual development suggests that approximately 1.7% of all live births do not conform to a Platonic ideal of absolute sex chromosome, gonadal, genital, and hormonal dimorphism.'

If they do not conform to the platonic ideal (The Platonic ideal is the perfect, absolute, and eternal forms.) male or female they are classified as intersex. By that definition anyone with abnormal hormone levels, abnormal looking or sized external sexual genitalia or even loosing a testicle or ovary due to other factors like cancer is classed as intersex.

Both Anne Fausto-Sterling and John Money were agenda driven and not seemingly interested in finding unbiased results.

[carecaplatonico]

19 hours ago, Kaiga said:

I know exactly what you're doing you cretin

Oh, Isn't that cute?

[carecaplatonico]

3 hours ago, Caerith said:

90 years later they're still banning and burning books on sex and gender.

What do you mean? Which books? Where? Maybe some are not appropriate for children, and are banned from schools, is that what you mean?

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, carecaplatonico said:

What do you mean? Which books? Where? Maybe some are not appropriate for children, and are banned from schools, is that what you mean?

The books being burned in the image weren't in a school for children and the post you only quoted part of actually answers your question. 

[Corvid]

14 hours ago, Letter13 said:

At a purely gamete level, yes, it is binary. But the physiological systems of the body are outrageously complex and cannot always be classified as binary. Chimeras exist, where a human can have two sets of DNA (of which one could be male, and one female). Intersex organisms also exist--including intersex humans. As many as 6% of all humans born are actually intersex, in which their chromosomes and/or reproductive organs do not fit neatly into or match the 'male or female' binary you're describing.

The term you're looking for is "Bimodal Spectrum", meaning a spectrum where most instances are one of the two extremes but examples can be found in between them.

[Dubstowel]

Never once posted on the forum after years of playing and thousands of hours sunk. That streak ends for me here just to say how tone def and idiotic some of these frankly hateful (or at the most charitable, wilfully ignorant) comments are. There are a million different things I want to say to people who dislike others based purely on their identity (and their expression of it); instead I will just live with the fact that hatefully people will always either be forgotten or change.