Warframe Quests and how they treat women.

[trst]

I feel like the only real imbalance here is the playable character issue. As story wise we've had many females playing primary rolls in their quests.

As for Jade's quest she was never the center point, despite the name, as the quest was labeled as one about Stalker's story. Also while we didn't get much on her she is the whole reason Stalker survived the collapse. So even if her primary roll was just "pregnant warframe" she still serves a critical roll within Stalker's backstory.

Regarding major quirks picking out only Umbra and Jade seems arbitrary. Umbra's quirk is gameplay exclusive since sentient frames are long established in lore. While Jade's is only through design and story. If we want to pick an earlier quirk from a female frame there's Mirage's quest in being the first(?) quest mentioning a frame having personality. Valkyr having been altered by Alad. Or the story of Voruna's wolves.

And in terms of playable characters I question what the reception would have been if the New War ones were female. Teshin is a long established character but lost his mind and died offscreen. Veso had an incredibly minor roll and unceremoniously died. And Kal was, still is, maimed and suffered the trauma of watching his brother's killed and the realization that the queen's aren't worth dying for. These aren't very nice outcomes for the characters and I do wonder what would be said if we had female characters suffering these fates instead. But again the 5/5 alternative characters being so far male is a notable imbalance, we'll see if that becomes 5/6 in 1999 with Aoi.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

On 2024-06-23 at 7:03 PM, Waeleto said:

She didn't need a child to tell her, the child only tells her to pick a voice to LEAD the other voice, in the end you make the choice but you don't make at as the tenno you make it as lotus, the tenno doesn't tell her "become lotus/natah/margulis" she is the one who picks for herself you basically play AS lotus while making that choice

Not how I read it but whatever. She spent 99% of the quest as a useless damsel. Nobody potato man Kahl did more than Lotus did.

[Khornelia]

4 hours ago, trst said:

As for Jade's quest she was never the center point, despite the name, as the quest was labeled as one about Stalker's story. Also while we didn't get much on her she is the whole reason Stalker survived the collapse. So even if her primary roll was just "pregnant warframe" she still serves a critical roll within Stalker's backstory.

Exactly the point, she was part of Stalkers story, in the form of an overused and outdated trope (look up "fridging"). And primarily men driving the stories has been a pattern in the quests for a bit now. Even the Lotus, who everyone is bringing up as a counter-example, has been a supporting character since she woke us up, and was abused and manipulated for almost all of the New War only to end with another trope: killing her abuser with a "kiss". Not even going into the baggage of telling stories that glorify women's death in childbirth, especially stories where the focus is on the man in their life.

 

4 hours ago, trst said:

Regarding major quirks picking out only Umbra and Jade seems arbitrary. Umbra's quirk is gameplay exclusive since sentient frames are long established in lore. While Jade's is only through design and story. If we want to pick an earlier quirk from a female frame there's Mirage's quest in being the first(?) quest mentioning a frame having personality. Valkyr having been altered by Alad. Or the story of Voruna's wolves.

I strongly disagree. Jade and Umbra are the only Warframes that, even in the present (during their respective quests), still demonstrate a degree of humanity. Backstories aren't the same at all.

 

4 hours ago, trst said:

And in terms of playable characters I question what the reception would have been if the New War ones were female. Teshin is a long established character but lost his mind and died offscreen. Veso had an incredibly minor roll and unceremoniously died. And Kal was, still is, maimed and suffered the trauma of watching his brother's killed and the realization that the queen's aren't worth dying for. These aren't very nice outcomes for the characters and I do wonder what would be said if we had female characters suffering these fates instead. But again the 5/5 alternative characters being so far male is a notable imbalance, we'll see if that becomes 5/6 in 1999 with Aoi.

That is a completely different and purely hypothetical matter. They could absolutely have written a well rounded female character for the quest, they just didn't. It wouldn't even have taken more than to instead of Kahl, make him a Heavy Gunner instead or even make us pick between her or him, and keep both for the weekly missions as well. Even Veso being a woman instead for the few minutes the character existed would have been SOMETHING, with room to improve. They just didn't even think to make an effort.

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:46 AM by Khornelia

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

Honestly, this whole quest did dirty to "everyone". Women AND men.

Jade is treated as a "prop" and I agree with that. Also, a "prop" that also seemingly steals the show. Despite the quest being previously advertised as "more Stalker-lore quest", but ends up being mainly about Jade... but also not really - because it ends up being more about pregnancy and a birthing mini-game instead, as THAT part clearly steals the whole show (and don't get me even started on the whole sister of parvos letting Stalker go part).

We're playing as Stalker, watching all of these events unfolding through his eyes, right? So anything that happens to him is technically happening to "us", the players. And yet we are - for some reason - only notified/warned about "trauma related to motherhood" at the start? Pulling attention away from Stalker and over at Jade... who is then treated as a prop/background thing/motivator, as you described. And I agree to that point of yours. But then we're actually not given a warning about a "trauma related to loss of your significant other", which can happen to men just as much as women. Stalker, in this case. We're not given a warning about "trauma related to becoming a single parent", which can - again - happen to men just as much as women. And again, in relation to Stalker here too. And we're not given a warning about "trauma related to becoming a parent/parenthood in general", because to some people - both men and women - this can be traumatic too. Stalker has been a hunter, a mass-murderer for centuries... Naturally, becoming a parent "all of a sudden" might be quite traumatic to him and will definitely affect his life, eh? Traumatic for sure (just have a watch of Dexter tv-show or read the book and you'll know what I mean).

We're looking at this quest through the eyes of Stalker, yet we're not being warned about the possible traumatic events/things/feelings that HE might experience? Which - due to us looking through his eyes - may transfer to us, the players? Like if... You know... Them implying that "men have no feelings, so they can't have trauma related to any of those things, so no warning is needed". Only a warning about "motherhood" is needed, for sure. "Motherhood", which - apparently - means staying the whole quest in bed and do no participation whatsoever beyond that.

Yeah. This quest is just bad writing on oh-so-many levels and does dirty to both women AND men.

[Snowbluff]

23 hours ago, itsmeappo said:

yeah. lotus spends the entire leadup to the new war being used and manipulated and jerked around with seemingly no will or plan or desires of her own, just those of her male relatives, spends most of the new war as a zombie, and then murders her abusive ex with... a femme fatale kiss. yikes. (and then for bonus points, in a story nominally about lotus deciding for herself who and what she wants to be, the player is the one who gets to decide if the direction she takes will be: 1. ballas's ex girlfriend who killed herself rather than put up with his [redacted] and who lotus pretended to be when initially looking after the tenno, 2. the aforementioned zombie, 3. herself)

like. c'mon.

Indeed. It will likely kill her character going into the future as well. Since the players have individually decided what the Lotus is, it is unlikely that we will get any development for each individual personality's plot moving forward, as that basically triples the cost of writing and deploying story for her.

17 hours ago, itsmeappo said:

it's not a modern medical term in the slightest, it's an outdated and misogynistic one. when a man is called hysterical it is calling him not just 'irrational' or 'overemotional' but feminine with it, a double insult.

Precisely.

23 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Valkyr was literally operated on while she was alive. I'd go a bit crazy too if that happened to me.

Involuntary surgery was a hallmark of hysteria treatment.

[Larrell]

I liked the quest and thought it was very brave for Jade to decide to die for her child to live, and anyone who complains about that spits on the memories of women who've made that choice in real life.

[(XBOX)mommyapples]

Can't agree more.

[YOURteacher100]

On 2024-06-23 at 1:58 AM, Khornelia said:

I did not like the Jade Shadows quest for reasons best summed up by ChangelingRain in this post. 

Jade, supposedly the headliner of the update and quest, was reduced to almost literally a birthing machine and motivational device for the Stalker. Also consieder this: the first Warframe to have a major quirk was Umbra (male), because he was sentient. Meanwhile Jade, the first female warframe to have a major quirk is literally... being pregnant. Yikes.

This goes along with the game's continued tendency to tell us stories driven by men, with women being reduced to motivating/supporting roles in those men's stories. (Lotus in the new War. Jade in this new quest.)

We've also had 5 non-tenno characters to play now; Teshin, Kahl, Veso, Arthur, Stalker. All of them men. 

I love this game and world, but this has come up again and again and has started make me tune out the story more and more, which is a shame. 

I also have a lot of love for you people at DE, and I think you could do much better and hope that you will. <3

The Operator is canonical female, checkmate

[Khornelia]

On 2024-06-25 at 8:00 PM, Larrell said:

I liked the quest and thought it was very brave for Jade to decide to die for her child to live, and anyone who complains about that spits on the memories of women who've made that choice in real life.

Except Jade isn't real, and writers decided what she would do, so no and that's incredibly stupid to say.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

23 minutes ago, Khornelia said:

Except Jade isn't real,

So why the upset over a fictional character?

[quxier]

On 2024-06-25 at 5:44 AM, Khornelia said:

On 2024-06-25 at 1:27 AM, trst said:

And in terms of playable characters I question what the reception would have been if the New War ones were female. Teshin is a long established character but lost his mind and died offscreen. Veso had an incredibly minor roll and unceremoniously died. And Kal was, still is, maimed and suffered the trauma of watching his brother's killed and the realization that the queen's aren't worth dying for. These aren't very nice outcomes for the characters and I do wonder what would be said if we had female characters suffering these fates instead. But again the 5/5 alternative characters being so far male is a notable imbalance, we'll see if that becomes 5/6 in 1999 with Aoi.

That is a completely different and purely hypothetical matter. They could absolutely have written a well rounded female character for the quest, they just didn't. It wouldn't even have taken more than to instead of Kahl, make him a Heavy Gunner instead or even make us pick between her or him, and keep both for the weekly missions as well. Even Veso being a woman instead for the few minutes the character existed would have been SOMETHING, with room to improve. They just didn't even think to make an effort.

"For my Sista..." said Kahlee2341

*Sister of Parvos appears* You kahled. honey?

"Who are you, Big Sista" responed shocked Grineer girl, seeing well equipped female soldier.

"Oh, I'm your Big Sister Jehny. Call be Big Sister" winks at her little sister "Let me help you with those bad guys" Sister proceed to send to the void

After removing all obstacles Sister said "Come to my arms Sweetheart, you will be living with your Big Sister now"

Kahlee2341 proceed to hug her new Sister "Sista!!!!!"

 

Ok, thank you all for reading this cheesy very short fanfiction between Sister of Parvos & female Heavy gunner

 

Going back to more serious tone:

Seriously do you think that just changing their gender/sexuality/stuff would out of sudden make any difference? Nah. many characters are not "gender" but serves some purpose. They can be changed into female without loosing nor gaining too much.

On 2024-06-23 at 2:58 AM, Khornelia said:

This goes along with the game's continued tendency to tell us stories driven by men, with women being reduced to motivating/supporting roles in those men's stories. (Lotus in the new War. Jade in this new quest.)

We've also had 5 non-tenno characters to play now; Teshin, Kahl, Veso, Arthur, Stalker. All of them men. 

My Stalker during New war (afair) were female. Jade's quest gets more complicated but that's MY cannon. It's probably because I've picked female Operator.

About rest are male? Pfft! Seriously, they are not stories about male/female dichotomy (difference between male & female). Or even stories related to males. They are stories about:

- Teshin - high ranked soldier with some cool fights

- Kahl - low ranking solder that want to rescue their comrades, developing character - their action are more concerned about soldier than queen at the end

- Veso - IT person that solves stuff, and have "enough" and says "it's me that has done X"

 

[moondog548]

I gotta say, I rhink this argumentative thread is one of the few that is a great thread and discussion.

Most of the perspectives (even , or maybe especially, the conflicting ones) expressed here are thoughtful and meaningful and valuable for all of us to read and consider!

I think this is exactly the kind of thing DE meant by loving our reactions. They don't just value praise, they value the thoughtful meaningful feedback to enrich not just the audience experience, but the authors' as well.

[Quest]

de should just do whatever they want and if i dont like it ill stop giving them money not gonna lie

[Khornelia]

On 2024-06-26 at 10:30 PM, quxier said:

About rest are male? Pfft! Seriously, they are not stories about male/female dichotomy (difference between male & female). Or even stories related to males. They are stories about:

- Teshin - high ranked soldier with some cool fights

- Kahl - low ranking solder that want to rescue their comrades, developing character - their action are more concerned about soldier than queen at the end

- Veso - IT person that solves stuff, and have "enough" and says "it's me that has done X"

And yet, all of those ARE men. Why? Out of 5 characters we've played in quests, not a single one has been a woman.

[quxier]

39 minutes ago, Khornelia said:

On 2024-06-26 at 10:30 PM, quxier said:

About rest are male? Pfft! Seriously, they are not stories about male/female dichotomy (difference between male & female). Or even stories related to males. They are stories about:

- Teshin - high ranked soldier with some cool fights

- Kahl - low ranking solder that want to rescue their comrades, developing character - their action are more concerned about soldier than queen at the end

- Veso - IT person that solves stuff, and have "enough" and says "it's me that has done X"

And yet, all of those ARE men. Why? Out of 5 characters we've played in quests, not a single one has been a woman.

Because that's how world rolls. Some jobs have more of one gender while other have more of other gender. Some are more neutral. Above just have more males.

Putting females into their roles would be kind of sexualization. I'm not offended by this. However it's just not necessary.

 

[moondog548]

14 hours ago, quxier said:

Because that's how world rolls. Some jobs have more of one gender while other have more of other gender. Some are more neutral. Above just have more males.

Putting females into their roles would be kind of sexualization. I'm not offended by this. However it's just not necessary.

 

The point where we stop asking "why" is arbitrary (e.g. "that's just the way it is")

And yeah, to get stuff done, we gotta put the questions on pause. But we gotta remember where we left off thinking about things and pick it up again later.

Because it matters. Everything relates to and affects everything else somehow.

[quxier]

13 minutes ago, moondog548 said:

14 hours ago, quxier said:

Because that's how world rolls. Some jobs have more of one gender while other have more of other gender. Some are more neutral. Above just have more males.

Putting females into their roles would be kind of sexualization. I'm not offended by this. However it's just not necessary.

 

The point where we stop asking "why" is arbitrary (e.g. "that's just the way it is")

And yeah, to get stuff done, we gotta put the questions on pause. But we gotta remember where we left off thinking about things and pick it up again later.

Because it matters. Everything relates to and affects everything else somehow.

We can discus why. However that was not my point. The person I'm answering is not interesting in "whys". They just need female as playable character.

[Aerikx]

I feel like the argument presented is disingenuous.

Basically, the argument is upset/mad that female frames have not been the playable protagonist. 

This is presented in a fashion that willingly ignores and overshadows that the most universe shaking, ever changing, and overall most awe inspiring events/actions in the Warframe universe have been performed by Women/Female. 

That they often achieved and were willing to do what no one else (in this case: men) could bring themselves to do. 

Mirage single handed laid low armies of Sentients, to the point where they basically sent an entire fleet to capture her. 

Citrine literally created a permanent rift/tunnel in the fabric of the universe to protect Belric and Rania. 

Voruna fought back an endless tide of The Indifference's Eldritch manifestations and resealed the rift in the void (she basically fought God, God's Army, and won.)

Gara took down what was essentially Hunhow's equal, to protect Cetus and it's people, and she did so Solo. 

Titania protected an entire Forest from an Orokin Battalion of the best of the best of their Dax (nearly immortal) soldiers and won.

Protea literally controls TIME itself. 

Yareli got her ass handed to her by an everyday Corpus Overseer who fashioned a necklace out of her teeth before she had to be saved by the very enslaved children she attempted to save. ...actually let's scratch this one... 

ANd now we have Jade who has done the literal impossible by birthing a living and sentient Warframe child. A NATURAL born Warframe. Literally a new form of life. 

DE has done NOTHING wrong when it comes to women/females in the Warframe universe. 

If we consider the feats of Male Warframes, it's not even a contest. 

Quick references: Limbo literally blew himself up, Revenant got a case of the crazies and tried to become one with an evil sentient corpse, Ash just killed a bunch of people, Grendel ate a bunch of people, Dante wrote books, Inaros fought off Orokin and died fighting infested. 

The only Male frame to do anything of absolute significance to the universe was Harrow.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

4 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

I feel like the argument presented is disingenuous.

Basically, the argument is upset/mad that female frames have not been the playable protagonist. 

This is presented in a fashion that willingly ignores and overshadows that the most universe shaking, ever changing, and overall most awe inspiring events/actions in the Warframe universe have been performed by Women/Female. 

That they often achieved and were willing to do what no one else (in this case: men) could bring themselves to do. 

Mirage single handed laid low armies of Sentients, to the point where they basically sent an entire fleet to capture her. 

Citrine literally created a permanent rift/tunnel in the fabric of the universe to protect Belric and Rania. 

Voruna fought back an endless tide of The Indifference's Eldritch manifestations and resealed the rift in the void (she basically fought God, God's Army, and won.)

Gara took down what was essentially Hunhow's equal, to protect Cetus and it's people, and she did so Solo. 

Titania protected an entire Forest from an Orokin Battalion of the best of the best of their Dax (nearly immortal) soldiers and won.

Protea literally controls TIME itself. 

Yareli got her ass handed to her by an everyday Corpus Overseer who fashioned a necklace out of her teeth before she had to be saved by the very enslaved children she attempted to save. ...actually let's scratch this one... 

ANd now we have Jade who has done the literal impossible by birthing a living and sentient Warframe child. A NATURAL born Warframe. Literally a new form of life. 

DE has done NOTHING wrong when it comes to women/females in the Warframe universe. 

If we consider the feats of Male Warframes, it's not even a contest. 

Quick references: Limbo literally blew himself up, Revenant got a case of the crazies and tried to become one with an evil sentient corpse, Ash just killed a bunch of people, Grendel ate a bunch of people, Dante wrote books, Inaros fought off Orokin and died fighting infested. 

The only Male frame to do anything of absolute significance to the universe was Harrow.

Damn, really well put together comment gg.

[moondog548]

 

2 hours ago, quxier said:

We can discus why. However that was not my point. The person I'm answering is not interesting in "whys". They just need female as playable character.

 

1 hour ago, Aerikx said:

I feel like the argument presented is disingenuous.

Basically, the argument is upset/mad that female frames have not been the playable protagonist. 

This is presented in a fashion that willingly ignores and overshadows that the most universe shaking, ever changing, and overall most awe inspiring events/actions in the Warframe universe have been performed by Women/Female. 

That they often achieved and were willing to do what no one else (in this case: men) could bring themselves to do. 

Mirage single handed laid low armies of Sentients, to the point where they basically sent an entire fleet to capture her. 

Citrine literally created a permanent rift/tunnel in the fabric of the universe to protect Belric and Rania. 

Voruna fought back an endless tide of The Indifference's Eldritch manifestations and resealed the rift in the void (she basically fought God, God's Army, and won.)

Gara took down what was essentially Hunhow's equal, to protect Cetus and it's people, and she did so Solo. 

Titania protected an entire Forest from an Orokin Battalion of the best of the best of their Dax (nearly immortal) soldiers and won.

Protea literally controls TIME itself. 

Yareli got her ass handed to her by an everyday Corpus Overseer who fashioned a necklace out of her teeth before she had to be saved by the very enslaved children she attempted to save. ...actually let's scratch this one... 

ANd now we have Jade who has done the literal impossible by birthing a living and sentient Warframe child. A NATURAL born Warframe. Literally a new form of life. 

DE has done NOTHING wrong when it comes to women/females in the Warframe universe. 

If we consider the feats of Male Warframes, it's not even a contest. 

Quick references: Limbo literally blew himself up, Revenant got a case of the crazies and tried to become one with an evil sentient corpse, Ash just killed a bunch of people, Grendel ate a bunch of people, Dante wrote books, Inaros fought off Orokin and died fighting infested. 

The only Male frame to do anything of absolute significance to the universe was Harrow.

Y'all surley have points of yoour own, but you're still ignoring many of the ways stories work.

The bullet points of the setting's history and plot surely matter, but they are not the same thing (and don't have the same effect) as immersing the audience in the experience of those events via the techniques of the telling.

It's the difference between knowing a thing happened and knowing what it was like. The former is valuable, but the latter is essential, because it can give us exposure to other perspectives and truths we could hardly e en imagine otherwise. And for folks who aren't the major mass market target demographic of modern history, it can gives them the reassurance and commiseration that's precious and rare for them yet taken for granted by most.

I don't even completely agree w/ op, but what they're sharing MUST be taken into consideration for our mutual benefit as art creators and enjoyers.

Edited Friday at 04:27 PM by moondog548

[quxier]

13 minutes ago, moondog548 said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

We can discus why. However that was not my point. The person I'm answering is not interesting in "whys". They just need female as playable character.

 

I think you have forgotten to write a reply to me.

[moondog548]

28 minutes ago, quxier said:

I think you have forgotten to write a reply to me.

My reply was to both of ya's. I believe your comment misrepresented op "just needing a playable female" and/or the value it would have.

It's not a big deal, and I wish I could convey the concepts I want to non-argumentatively. But this is the best I got right now.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, moondog548 said:

Y'all surley have points of yoour own, but you're still ignoring many of the ways stories work.

1 hour ago, moondog548 said:

I don't even completely agree w/ op, but what they're sharing MUST be taken into consideration for our mutual benefit as art creators and enjoyers.

53 minutes ago, moondog548 said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I think you have forgotten to write a reply to me.

My reply was to both of ya's. I believe your comment misrepresented op "just needing a playable female" and/or the value it would have.

It's not a big deal, and I wish I could convey the concepts I want to non-argumentatively. But this is the best I got right now.

I'm not ignoring I just replying to stuff that doesn't have that information.

You said that I somehow misinterpreted "just needing a playable female". No. I haven't. Op just blatantly want female characters to play. There is probably near 0 thinking. Like "change common Grineer grunt (Kahl) to Heavy gunner". There is nothing about why. It's just "Oh, yeah, that character has boobs so let's pick it".

[Xylena_Lazarow]

27 minutes ago, quxier said:

Op just blatantly want female characters to play.

How dare she want female characters to play. How dare she.

[moondog548]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm not ignoring I just replying to stuff that doesn't have that information.

You said that I somehow misinterpreted "just needing a playable female". No. I haven't. Op just blatantly want female characters to play. There is probably near 0 thinking. Like "change common Grineer grunt (Kahl) to Heavy gunner". There is nothing about why. It's just "Oh, yeah, that character has boobs so let's pick it".

I went back and reviewed your back and forth with OP to make sure I wasn't getting my posters mixed up. (A lot of different folks each using the same avatars of streamers Im unfamiliar with doesn't help).

So anyway, it seems that when I replied to you, I had indeed overlooked how unwilling you've been to consider and discuss the actual concepts presented vs the ones you have prepared rants against. I apologize for the misunderstanding and will leave you to it.

 

Edited Friday at 10:18 PM by moondog548