New Status Mods a la Radiation Mods introduced in Whispers in the Walls

[Trollocaustic]

I think it would be appropriate to introduce, at the very least a Gas Mod set so that Blast + Gas and other currently impossible combinations can be feasible especially considering Gas is probably the biggest loser of the status rework. That said, if anyone is worried about "b-b-b-but muh balance, muh challenge!!111!1!"" remember that Heat+Viral+Slash exists.  No, but seriously, just raise the mod cost to like 16 at max rank or something.

[Pakaku]

You say people will worry about balance, yet I still can't figure out a way to make blast procs feel meaningful

That said, some new Gas and Blast mods would be nice to have eventually

[Xycelium]

I feel like even a Gas or Blast mod with extra Status Chance wouldn't even be that crazy nor game breaking to be honest. Actually, that would probably incentivize the usage of those elements in the first place.

[Trollocaustic]

Honesly, I just want competitive viable alternatives to the Heat+Viral+Slash meta. Pure cold and Toxin are good alternatives because of the unique arvanes like Primary Frostbite, Secondary Shiver and not to mention the myriad of weapon specific mods like Shivering Contagion. Maybe not as poular but those aforementioned on the right weapons can make some pretty hgreat niche builds.

Oh and to define "viable" before some smart@ss chimes in, I mean late SP Circuit (around lvl 1000 and above). Not gonna judge based on level cap as we all know MOST weapons will never be carried to such ends.

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Trollocaustic said:

especially considering Gas is probably the biggest loser of the status rework

Can you elaborate? Gas was perfectly fine, a tad OP even, and still is. Reworked Blast doesnt come anywhere near. I still do not see the reason to mod for Blast at all, just when it is present on weapons base damage it is not entirely useless.

 

Edited July 26 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

26 minutes ago, Trollocaustic said:

Honesly, I just want competitive viable alternatives to the Heat+Viral+Slash meta.

Gas+grouping+armor strip totally is. You can even slap a Viral on top to make it even more effective. 

I run at least 4 different Gas setups (mostly with Melee Influence), but Nautilus is used for grouping on all of them.

Edited July 26 by Zakkhar

[Trollocaustic]

I guess my issue with Gas is that it only has a faction multiplier against Infested Deimos not even normal Infested anymore.

Is Gas+Viral even possible outside of external sources like Nourish?

[Sojufueled]

55 minutes ago, Trollocaustic said:

I guess my issue with Gas is that it only has a faction multiplier against Infested Deimos not even normal Infested anymore.

Is Gas+Viral even possible outside of external sources like Nourish?

A few places. Plague zaws for instance.

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Trollocaustic said:

Is Gas+Viral even possible outside of external sources like Nourish?

External sources like Diriga or any other Sentinel or Panzer or Syndicate proc (Rakta Dark Dagger) or plague zaws or priming.

1 hour ago, Trollocaustic said:

I guess my issue with Gas is that it only has a faction multiplier against Infested Deimos not even normal Infested anymore.

I do not think you understand how multipliers work. Normal infested collapsed from being breathed on before and still do now (maybe beside the overkoxxed Juggernaut with damage attentuation to the roof)

[Trollocaustic]

Nah I've tested Heat + Corrosive against Infested Deimos and it seems to be the superior choice there, hoss.

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Gas+grouping+armor strip totally is.

Or you can just kill them outright, no need for grouping or armor strip. They die just as fast if not only a tad slower, and without the large time loss of needing to group and strip. (Nautilus is goodish and isn't a time loss, but it has down time, doesn't work with slows, and has all the problems of AI.)

So that's why gas is bad, because you can kill just as fast without the time loss of needing to set it up. That and how restrictive the 10 proc cap is in terms of what weapons can even utilize gas. And what happens when you can't/there's nothing to group? Etc...

 

In the 4+ years since it's rework, I've only found one use case where Gas is both fun and effective. And even then, the build is technically better with electric.

[Zakkhar]

8 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Or you can just kill them outright, no need for grouping or armor strip.

Yes, you can. I should have named it Gas+(grouping)+(armor strip). My setups do not waste time for neither, they are either passive effects from doing damage or part of the rotation anyway.

9 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

So that's why gas is bad, because you can kill just as fast without the time loss of needing to set it up.

The point is, you actually do not need to set it up at all. You just kill everything in 20 yard range constantly with just Gas or Gas+occasional Electric. Grouping is only useful with small enemy density (non-sp missions aka Netra/Eda). And it is satisfying when you group up and everything pops due to how gas stacks exponentially.

[Zakkhar]

14 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

That and how restrictive the 10 proc cap is in terms of what weapons can even utilize gas.

Bro, it is 10 proc cap per enemy. The cloud has 6 seconds duration and 6 meter radius and you constantly proc it within 20 yards on every enemy present (beside doing actual damage of that proc). With 2 enemies it is 20 clouds affecting each enemy with 3 enemies it is 30 clouds affecting each enemy with 4 etc etc.  and the clouds linger so they kill everything that is grouped or runs into the area imidiately.

15 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

And what happens when you can't/there's nothing to group? Etc...

If that happens it means you got nothing to be killed anyway and you can use whathever and gas will work just as well as anything else would.

Edited July 26 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

9 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

In the 4+ years since it's rework, I've only found one use case where Gas is both fun and effective. And even then, the build is technically better with electric.

There are two options. Either it really isnt in general, or it just isnt for you. Why? Well, maybe you are doing it/understanding it wrong. The fact that you claim electric to be better than gas gives a bit of indication, which case we got here. 

Electric proc 3 meter radius, 6 second duration, damage tick every second calculated as follows:

Gas proc 6 meter radius (that is 4 times bigger area than 3 meter radius), 6 second duration, damage tick every second calculated as follows:

If anything it is the electric status that REQUIRES grouping, the thing you seem to despise, do not want to waste time on and mod for the situations where it is not possible. Yes electric can stack more than 10 times on a single enemy, but if it is not dead by the time you get to 10 Gas/Electric status effects it means you weapon sucks or it is a miniboss with damage attenuation. Yes, electric can achieve up to x2.5 electric multiplier compared to gas at the price of 2 mod slots, but still it is 4 times smaller area and smaller area without grouping means less enemies are affected together, which means much lower exponential scaling.

 

Edited July 26 by Zakkhar

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

You just kill everything in 20 yard range constantly with just Gas

Gas doesn't only exist when you use it with melee influence, you need to consider it wholistically.

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Bro, it is 10 proc cap per enemy.

Yes, and 10 stacks from something like the Ocucor might as well not exist compared to something like the Paris Prime. So unlike basically every other damage type in the game, Gas just ceases to really work if you don't have the correct stats on your weapon, whether that weapon is meta or not.

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

The cloud has 6 seconds duration and 6 meter radius and you constantly proc it within 20 yards on every enemy present

6m is not that much if your aren't grouping. Not to mention you have to have basically 2 worthless mods on your melee to use Gas (the elemental damage is worthless and the status chance is not doing much when you already have a ton). You'd be better off leaning more into electric, building viral, adding more high value damage mods, etc... if you're using anything other than Amalgam Metal Augur.

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

The fact that you claim electric to be better than gas gives a bit of indication, which case we got here. 

The only time I've found Gas to be effective/fun is on a specific Lavos build. But that build is basically inarguably stronger using electric instead because of the literal thing you've been propping Gas up with this whole conversation, Melee Influence. And you still get a bit of that AoE DoT damage.

[Raarsi]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

The fact that you claim electric to be better than gas gives a bit of indication, which case we got here. 

Pretty sure it's better than gas almost exclusively because Gyre exists.  Standalone, sure, you could probably do better with gas; I do remember my Torid Incarnon yielding some pretty amusing results when I used to have it as a gas weapon, but there aren't really any answers for gas like Gyre is for electricity.

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing more status mods like that though, but it does remind me that I should try a blast build on a beam weapon to see how the fireworks from that would go.

[Zakkhar]

34 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

3 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

You just kill everything in 20 yard range constantly with just Gas

Gas doesn't only exist when you use it with melee influence, you need to consider it wholistically.

Why though? If it is the best application of it? So doesnt electric, heat or toxin. Yes ther is no better way of constantly applyng status on multiple enemies for all warframes (as certain warframes have their own way of spreading status effects that can work instead of in synergy with MI).

37 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

3 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Bro, it is 10 proc cap per enemy.

Yes, and 10 stacks from something like the Ocucor might as well not exist compared to something like the Paris Prime. So unlike basically every other damage type in the game, Gas just ceases to really work if you don't have the correct stats on your weapon, whether that weapon is meta or not.

As long as it has good base status it works fine. 

39 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

6m is not that much if your aren't grouping.

6 is radius is huge area, 6 meter radius around enemes present in 20 meter area is even bigger. I keep repeating that there is no need for grouping if enemy density is sufficient and you keep ignoring it.

41 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Not to mention you have to have basically 2 worthless mods on your melee to use Gas (the elemental damage is worthless and the status chance is not doing much when you already have a ton).

Elemental damage is not worthless because it increases your proc damage which is propagated every time you get a proc, it has no effect on DoT damage.

42 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You'd be better off leaning more into electric

Pure electric is much worse without grouping because it has only 3 meter radius.

43 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

building viral,

Getting 1 stack of viral is worth 100% damage increase, getting another is +25% to that existing +100% (200%) being only factual 12.5% increase. Stacking viral is absolutely suboptimal because subsequent stacks over 1 offer small benefit and it doesnt leave any DoT that double dips with faction damage or affect nearby enemies. Viral can be provided with outside sources.

48 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

if you're using anything other than Amalgam Metal Augur.

I assume you mean Argonak Metal Auger. Armor strip is not always needed, eg. Murmur have very little strippable armored enemies (Necramechs are not strippable).

51 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

The only time I've found Gas to be effective/fun is on a specific Lavos build. But that build is basically inarguably stronger using electric instead because of the literal thing you've been propping Gas up with this whole conversation, Melee Influence. And you still get a bit of that AoE DoT damage.

Have you actually conducted any tests and have factual evidence for those claims or is it just trust me bro? Because I did.

[crimsonspartan1]

I mean isn't radiation considered the weakest element now, since the status change? Gas still has it's uses and blast is really good now (IMO. I can dish out a lot of damage with blast using weapons with high damage and status chance at least?) while radiation only just makes enemies attack each other and CC isn't exactly strong nowadays when you can just kill everything pretty easily with strong enough gear.

Kinda understandable why radiation has it's own mods for each weapon since it's the only status that doesn't deal damage over time or amplify the damage they take unless you count the whole radiated enemies dealing / taking more damage to / from their allies thing which isn't exactly great in the grand scheme of things. Only reason why I used radiation was because prior to the status change it was neutral against a lot of things and having another element on my weapon helps with conditional overload like mods. Now with the status change i'd rather have magnetic be on my kuva / sister weapons since that deals bonus damage to shields and overguard while also force proc'ing an electric proc when breaking the shields / overguard of magnetic affected enemies. IMO radiation probably should've got the increased dmg to overguard that magnetic has, but magnetic still gets to keep the force electric proc from breaking overguard and shields.

If we ever did get gas / blast mods or mods for other dual elements, i'd assume they'd maybe be on a weaker scale compared to the radiation mods considering they all actually have decent uses against enemies. 

[Xzorn]

Gas works well when you have some sort of grouping method like Mag's bubble. Haven't found much use otherwise.

Blast is nearly a 1 to 1 copy of Explosive Arrow from PoE without some restrictions. A skill that went from 0 to hero after Ballista totems were buffed.

The damage result looks something like like (Sources * Status Rate * Targets). For instance I changed by Inarnon Angstrum from Corrosive + Heat to Corrosive + Cold which make it's Inarnon form Corrosive + Blast. If you aren't familiar with the weapon it hits a target then bounces to others. Dante's "Turret" does similar.

Angstrum RoF is 9.6 with 2.7 Multishot. All said and done on it's own it procs blast ~45% of the time. So it procs 10 stack blast on multiple targets in 0.8s. Dante's book matches fire rate though I don't feel like looking up it's status triggers. This results in roughly 300% x Num Targets every half second.

This is actually why the PoE version is a set timer of 1s and 20 max stacks.

[KitMeHarder]

13 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Why though? If it is the best application of it?

I didn't say you can't include it, I'm saying you need to include more than just a singular point. If Gas ceases to be worth a damn when you remove one arcane from a game that has countless ways for you to apply Gas, then Gas isn't good, MI is. And MI doesn't need Gas.

13 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

it has no effect on DoT damage.

Which is the only point that matters. Without the DoT, Gas damage is pointless. You'd be better off with almost anything else.

13 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Have you actually conducted any tests and have factual evidence for those claims or is it just trust me bro? Because I did.

Yes, I have my own experience... which is all you've provided as well. You have not shown me Gas being better, you've only explained mechanics I already knew about, the same way I did. Don't try and act like you're "holier than thou".

And the math is simple. If I have a melee that does an AoE attack about the size of a ~24x34m rectangle/trapezoid, Gas is only adding up to 6m (twice) on each of those measurements (36x46m). But electric with melee influence will add up to 20m (twice) (64x74m). So a pretty clear massive AoE increase. And 95% enemies are killed so far away they can't traverse the theoretical 14m to even begin being damaged by the gas clouds before they'd despawn. (And no, this build can not practically use gas+electric, as without Lavos the proc chance for the other element is abysmal.) And both builds massively overkill enemies, so the better AoE is superior.

Edited July 27 by KitMeHarder

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

I appreciate how blast damage will occasionally charge my Torid a little more quickly.

One of those good "bugs", like how we used to be able to shoot enemy corpses for incarnon charging.

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

I would like to have Blast and Magnetic mods. Call them Gyrojet Bullets and Nitro Coating for ranged and melee. I'm also a supporter of adding Blast to the adversary elements.

[Trollocaustic]

Thanks for derailing my first ever topic, meta nerds 😆

[ominumi]

Yes i would like to have Blast, Gas, and Heat onto one weapon. Then have Nourish for Viral while having another form of Slash somehow. 

[DrivaMain]

19 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Can you elaborate? Gas was perfectly fine, a tad OP even, and still is. Reworked Blast doesnt come anywhere near. I still do not see the reason to mod for Blast at all, just when it is present on weapons base damage it is not entirely useless.

 

Gas is fine, unless you build it on a high RoF low base damage weapon. Gas’s arbitrary 10 stack limit kills it’s damage stacking benefit compared to other status effects.