Nullifiers shouldn't exist on today's gameplay

[SaeryWind]

Just delete the nullifiers, today overguard and units that does both spawn and gives overguarded already makes the player interact with their mechanics despite of the warframe u'r using, nullifiers are just dumb and can be really anoying because not only you can't use skills on their bubble, they also cancel your skills and last but not least mess with your stacks from warframe skills like nidus passive, and even myself that only plays mirage can easily identify they are just anoying, they don't do a good job at interrup player's control and also doesn't provide other unit's with a protection againts player's damage, they just feel like a pain in the ass for a couple seconds ('till they die or you kill them, whatever happens first), but it's a couple seconds every few seconds until another nullifier spawns if it hasn't yet, like, really just delete nullifiers will make players play without fearing touch a nullifier bubble so they feel free to spam skills, do a combo rotation of skills, do melee combos, try set ups that are bad just because of nullifiers, play missions that are just not choosen because of nullifiers, etc.
 

Conclutions:
-since overguard does the nullifiers work but better, there's no reason for a unit like them to be on the game anymore as overguard not only makes players interact with enemies without messing with our control over our character but also overguard does provide enemies with extra damage resistance until you find their weakspots (like nox units headshot interaction) meaning a skill based gameplay is compensated that translated to a shooter game means more gameplay and players that will practice in order to show their skills.

-despite being an enemy that gives variety to the game, it's everywhere. since it's not a exclusive unit tied to corpus since orokin faction also has a nullifier, and because orokin has nullifier it's not tied either to a tileset nor mission type because of void fissures being everywhere and being part of the main playable loop.

-in terms of general gameplay context, deleting this unit will give space to others eximus/special units to spawn and interact with the player, so instead of playing againts 20 nullifiers on a corpus mission every 20 seconds, we could be surrounded by a group of various eximus, cleaners, nox, thrax, etc.

-stalker also cleans player skills and punish players for recasting buff skills, but that doesn't mean you can't throw a fireball to his face, meaning a boss unit that has a really cool and fun fight and also offer good loot has a better implemented and a better execution of the main gimmick nullifiers has, so now nullifiers are also bad at being nullifiers.

-give players a mod that let us don't worry for nullifiers like how prime sure footed let us basically cheese every enemy knock down skills and attacks (like really a single mod make half special enemy's interactions useless).

-since almost 12 warframes from the rooster are not popular or are rather left aside because of nullifiers existance, it will also give lobbys more variety meaning more players interaction between each others and more gear worth building that translated to warframe main game loop means more gameplay.

-the elephant in the room is banshee, since she's an exception to eximus interaction but that doesn't mean nullifiers should exist just to nerf one specific character while 1/4 of the rooster are still not on a usable spot because of a single enemy (worst case being limbo) and also that enemy is still anoying to deal for the entire rooster.

-since nullifiers deactivate skills that were already active when touching their bubble this means you have to recast skills after killing them, being basically the only enemy in the whole game whose interaction doesn't end when you have kill it because you will be always after finishing one nullifier left with a warframe with no active skills, probably half or less of the energy spent to use the skills on the first place, less power due the nullifier messing with your warframe stacks and that if you just have to worry for another nullifier but on the whole context of the game you are basically left defenseless on the middle of a room where at least 40 enemies are pointing at your head waiting for you to say your prayers.

-since parkour 2.0 bullet jump and roll help a lot with warframe movility and experience of fast phase gameplay, but that's not a reason for excalibut slash dash, atlas punch, gauss mach rush, kullervo wrathful advance, etc. being render useless on missions where nullifiers come into play, and it's worst since characters like atlas are played around their movement skill but you can't use the only skill you want to use at all.

-damage skills are some of the most used helmint infused and some of the most popular warframes has this kind of buffs (i.e. wisp 3rd skill) but nullifiers in oposite to overguard instead of giving a reason to run this skills and use them on the correct instant just let them useless to give damage because you run into a nullifier bubble (i.e. using eclipse/xata's wisper on a melee build).

-yeah, just delete nullifiers, overall they make the game feel slow and doesn't provide a reason to exist nor an interaction that is worth players invest time in learning and solve.

P.D. now nullifier sounds weird on my brain.

[Zakkhar]

Skill issue.

43 minutes ago, SaeryWind said:

and punish players for recasting buff skills

How exactly? By teasing/taunting them?

All i see in forums lately: game punishes player for X, mechanic punishes player for Y, player is being punished for A, NPC punishes for X

Stop using the word "punish". You have clearly no idea what it means.

Edited August 15 by Zakkhar

[Vilmera]

6 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Skill issue.

this ⬆️

sure thing it's uncomfortable to deal with nulls with this⬇️

[Genitive]

You know, we have so many ways of dealing with nullifiers nowadays, and their bubbles aren't as annoying as they used to be, that removing them isn't really necessary. They don't spawn as often, either.

[Lord_Drod]

Nullifiers are kind of a non issue.  I just jump over them.  I think at high levels their gun play is more of an issue than the bubble.  Kuva Trokarians need to expand to other places than Zariman.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Tenet_Cycron

Magnetic progenitor / modded for magnetic.

Thank me later.

il y a 21 minutes, Vilmera a dit :

sure thing it's uncomfortable to deal with nulls with this⬇️

Next level exposed. You just reminded me of the /profile <username> command. Well played.

 

Also Torid incarnon exists.

[quxier]

19 minutes ago, Genitive said:

They don't spawn as often, either.

3-4 hanging around, 1 probably eximus with new feauture... I mean bug, I hope it's bug, that just ignore normal guns (bubble doesn't shrink). Oh, and 3-4 Nullies IN EVERY ROOM.

23 minutes ago, Genitive said:

You know, we have so many ways of dealing with nullifiers nowadays, and their bubbles aren't as annoying as they used to be, that removing them isn't really necessary.

How many new ways do we really have? We had:

- shoot bubble to shrink (fast firerate)

- shoot the drone (not always possible)

- kill nully itself (e.g. go OP)

What's new way? Few augments? Pfft.

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

1 hour ago, SaeryWind said:

and punish players for recasting buff skills

How exactly? By teasing/taunting them?

All i see in forums lately: game punishes player for X, mechanic punishes player for Y, player is being punished for A, NPC punishes for X

Stop using the word "punish". You have clearly no idea what it means.

You cast ability, that costs energy and maybe even other stuffs. Stalkee deactivates your ability, even just after casting. It means you have wasted your energy.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/operant-conditioning.html

• Quote

   

  • Punishers: Responses from the environment that decrease the likelihood of a behavior being repeated. Punishment weakens behavior.

   

and in this case it's Negative Punishment:

Quote

They are two distinct methods of punishment used to decrease the likelihood of a specific behavior occurring again, but they involve different types of consequences:

1. Positive Punishment:

   • Positive punishment involves adding an aversive stimulus or something unpleasant immediately following a behavior to decrease the likelihood of that behavior happening in the future.
   • It aims to weaken the target behavior by associating it with an undesirable consequence.
   • Example: A child receives a scolding (an aversive stimulus) from their parent immediately after hitting their sibling. This is intended to decrease the likelihood of the child hitting their sibling again.

2. Negative Punishment:

   • Negative punishment involves removing a desirable stimulus or something rewarding immediately following a behavior to decrease the likelihood of that behavior happening in the future.
   • It aims to weaken the target behavior by taking away something the individual values or enjoys.
   • Example: A teenager loses their video game privileges (a desirable stimulus) for not completing their chores. This is intended to decrease the likelihood of the teenager neglecting their chores in the future.

Stalkee takes away your abilities so you won't spam it too much.

 

Feel free give other definition of punishment.

[Chewarette]

Yeah, they're garbage, and their function (ability disrupting) has been replaced by other ones over time. Plus, they're still inconsistent because of network issues (bubble not showing or not shrinking despite taking damage so you don't really know where it is sometimes), the game would be better off without them.

[MaxTunnerX]

Didnt actually read the main post but nullifiers should definitely be removed from the game and from all alternate universes. They were never fun and never will be. Just like double doors and elevators. Its bad enough the game got screwed by overguard eximus (RIP half of the warframes), nullifiers kill the rest of the non-meta ones that rely on stacks to be good.

Edited August 15 by MaxTunnerX

[_GoodLuck_]

They are garbage. Use your operator mode more often if your weapon doesn't have enough fire rate or magnetic damage. I use Klamora Prism to get rid of their bubbles. If you guys worried about their overguard - Secondary Fortifier.

This topic would have been relevant at least 3-4 years ago, but today we have tools that help us to deal with those bubbles and overguard. Those days are gone.

 

[Zakkhar]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

You cast ability, that costs energy and maybe even other stuffs. Stalkee deactivates your ability, even just after casting. It means you have wasted your energy.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/operant-conditioning.html

• Quote

  Punishers: Responses from the environment that decrease the likelihood of a behavior being repeated. Punishment weakens behavior.

and in this case it's Negative Punishment:

Punisher and punishment are two different words.

This is no punishement. These are consequences of your own actions. He tells you exactly that the powers will not work, you use them, they do not work. Pikachuface.jpg 

Also this has nothing to do with conditioning. If you plan to jump from very high and someone tells you you gonna get hurt and you jump anyway and get hurt. Who punishes who? Who gets punished? How? For what behaviour? Is it positive or negative?

 

Edited August 15 by Zakkhar

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

You cast ability, that costs energy and maybe even other stuffs. Stalkee deactivates your ability, even just after casting. It means you have wasted your energy.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/operant-conditioning.html

• Quote

  Punishers: Responses from the environment that decrease the likelihood of a behavior being repeated. Punishment weakens behavior.

and in this case it's Negative Punishment:

Punisher and punishment are two different words.

Ok, here, you have 'punishment':

Quote

What is punishment in classical conditioning?

 

 

In psychology, punishment refers to any change that occurs after a behavior that reduces the likelihood that that behavior will happen again in the future. The goal of punishment is to either reduce or stop a behavior.

 

12 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

This is no punishement. These are consequences of your own actions.

I don't see how this 2 sentences relates to each other.And I'm not sure how "it's your own actions" matters here.

13 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Also, could you give me examples of Positive Punishments?

Mentioned:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Example: A child receives a scolding (an aversive stimulus) from their parent immediately after hitting their sibling. This is intended to decrease the likelihood of the child hitting their sibling again.

Otherwise google "classical conditioning examples positive punishment" to know more.

I'm not going to argue about science & stuff. I'm not that smart but just saying "it's not X" without any explanation is not good. It's you that doesn't know what it means.

[TenTonneSkeleton]

6 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Skill issue.

How exactly? By teasing/taunting them?

All i see in forums lately: game punishes player for X, mechanic punishes player for Y, player is being punished for A, NPC punishes for X

Stop using the word "punish". You have clearly no idea what it means.

Why does your every post have to be a personal attack?

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

2 minutes ago, TenTonneSkeleton said:

Why does your every post have to be a personal attack?

It’s just how Zakkhar is, they’ve been told numerous times how they speak to others is weak but here we are as usual somebody else pointing this out.

[Tiltskillet]

Step 1: Delete Nullifier

Step 2: Create Nullifier Eximus type

Step 3: Propagate to all factions

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Grofit!

7 hours ago, SaeryWind said:

the elephant in the room is banshee

Bro, you calling my boo fat?

[Genitive]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

What's new way? Few augments? Pfft.

Well, I was thinking about shooting the drone, which is pretty straightforward, or using the operator to destroy the bubble, which is also straightforward. There are also augments, but the bubbles don't really have that much health in the first place, so I don't know if I'd bother. On top of that, when they spawn, the bubble is tiny, so you can easily kill them before they deploy it if you pay attention. You can also just enter the bubble. Recasting abilities can be annoying sometimes, but nothing to lose sleep over.

Nowhere in my post, however, did I mention any new ways, so please don't make stuff up.

[quxier]

3 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Well, I was thinking about shooting the drone, which is pretty straightforward, or using the operator to destroy the bubble, which is also straightforward. There are also augments, but the bubbles don't really have that much health in the first place, so I don't know if I'd bother. On top of that, when they spawn, the bubble is tiny, so you can easily kill them before they deploy it if you pay attention. You can also just enter the bubble. Recasting abilities can be annoying sometimes, but nothing to lose sleep over.

Nowhere in my post, however, did I mention any new ways, so please don't make stuff up.

Ok, but you mentioned MANY ways. That's not many.

 

37 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Step 1: Delete Nullifier

Step 2: Create Nullifier Eximus type

Step 3: Propagate to all factions

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Grofit!

Step 4. All eximus units are Nully eximus. :D

[Genitive]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

Ok, but you mentioned MANY ways. That's not many.

I'm not going to repeat myself. Go argue with someone else.

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

How many new ways do we really have?

Well, magnetic damage and status are a lot more valuable now.  And the status supposedly gets more benefit against Nullifier bubbles now.  And we've got ~600 weapons, depending on how you count them. 

So about 600 new ways?  :P

[quxier]

30 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

7 hours ago, quxier said:

How many new ways do we really have?

Well, magnetic damage and status are a lot more valuable now.  And the status supposedly gets more benefit against Nullifier bubbles now.  And we've got ~600 weapons, depending on how you count them. 

So about 600 new ways?  :P

I've done some test on sp Nullies at 195 level x3 (which I see very frequently!). So Yeah, with magnetic it's better but If you are slow you can destroy 1 bubble where 2nd bubble appears.

We got around ~500 weapons, prime included (primary, secondary & melee). With auto mode it's easier but some weapons (e.g. bows) probably still have problems, especially with few Nullies constantly spawning.

[Pakaku]

There are so many ways to deal with them that if you still have trouble with them at this point, the problem is your inability to adapt/prepare

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

With auto mode it's easier but some weapons (e.g. bows) probably still have problems, especially with few Nullies constantly spawning.

I don't recommend Daikyu against Nullie bubbles, no.  Most bows have a quick shot option though.  And we've got other weapon slots, including an amp.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

We got around ~500 weapons, prime included (primary, secondary & melee).

According to the wiki, it's 550 between the three main weapon slots, robotic weapons, and archguns...but that doesn't include kitguns and zaws.   I did not include archmelee as those don't crossover with Nullies or barely do.  Or amps, as these can't be modded with magnetic.

So I thought 600 was an ok approximation.  Although, I should have said several thousand by including all the modular weapon combos.  Missed opportunity, that.

/end pointless offtopic explanation of a silly joke, 3x shame penalty for even bothering to look things up before I made it...

[quxier]

36 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

With auto mode it's easier but some weapons (e.g. bows) probably still have problems, especially with few Nullies constantly spawning.

I don't recommend Daikyu against Nullie bubbles, no.  Most bows have a quick shot option though.  And we've got other weapon slots, including an amp.

I don't feel like spaming LMB is good, but otherwise, yeah, we have other slots. I'm using amp flamethrower.

 

[Hobie-wan]

All I got out of that after I glazed over was a reminder that we need Grineer nullifiers. 😈

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 7 heures, Hobie-wan a dit :

All I got out of that after I glazed over was a reminder that we need Grineer nullifiers. 😈

We have them, in a way, in the Zariman. And they don't feel as annoying.