Frost Revisited 3/3/2014

[Riccoshot]

If you're want to make Snow Globe health damage reduced by 155 Frost's armor... equip all health and shield mods, go to Pluto-Outer Terminus (i don't even talk about higher levels), meet a single Corpus Tech and let him kill you then you'll probably see the not a single one Damage Reduction can help when a single enemy can deal that amount a damage.

 

Make Globe armor scale like Grineer Armor scales. Maybe then it will make a bit of sence at least.

 

 

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

I don't know why this wasn't done still.

 

Basic Globe health should be increased as well, minumum 50% from a current numbers.

[Kaidinah]

Neither of those works. The ability needs to be Bastille'd. What do I mean?

 

Make it block X number of projectiles like how Bastille blocks X number of enemies from getting through. Have this number of projectiles go up based on ability power and the rank of the mod.

 

No matter what, Frost will always lose with hit points, armor or not. Blocking X numbers of bullets will allow the power to scale with any level of foe.

[Psychosist]

I do have one issue with Psychosist's suggestion. The Ice Armor component sounds highly exploitable; as in, a Frost could lay down globes to act as a chain of 'pit stops' for his teammates. Need to shove your way through a pack of dangerous mobs? Throw down a globe and have the team run through it, then lay down a new one some distance away for when the buff wears off.

 

Perhaps this could be remedied by having the armor only come into effect if a player stays inside the globe for a certain length of time. At the same time, this could just serve to merely slow down the 'inchworming' process.

I don't blame you for missing that detail, but my suggested mechanic listed:

 

"• A limit of a single Snow Globe can be placed on the field at any instance. Casting of an additional Globe will cause the previous to dissipate, acting much like Loki's Decoy."

 

Believe me, I have taken the time to minimize space for abuse. If you have any further concerns, please do tell me about them!

 

Edit:

 

I do hope I read your post correctly. At the moment I am pretty tired, forgive me, but trust me, I do try.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Psychosist

[Doom_Bunny]

Can try to stay with Frost and not veer off to Vauban and Rhino. Frost is Frost he is not an alternate copy of Vauban or Rhino and comparing/applying ideas of one of the three to one of the others does not help.

[VaricBreem]

I like the idea Of those changes , Though I think giving frost more CC would be better change  like say change avalanche  from a dmage  skill to a CC debuff ,  with somthing like it freezes  targets in a certain area  for a few  secounds ,  frozen targets  take 50% more dmage this and ,the  globe duration removal/armor effecting its  hp  will help  his  end game potential alot

[Grulos]

Make it viable in high-lvl defense.

[wintersword]

I've skimmed through some of these posts and there are a lot of really off the wall ideas on how to fix snow globe, but I think the first post from Rebeca really nailed what snow globe really needs. I saw something about Ice Armor? Please no. We don't need more Rhinos. I like how Frost is unique

 

Globe health and globe duration should be mutually exclusive.  It should have HP and be indefinite, or be invincible and be timed (like old globe)

Having two conditions that can break the globe make it so much more vulnerable.

 

I would have agreed that it could use more health, but having frost's armor apply to globe health, in my opinion, is a creative way to ensure that the globe does in fact scale with level. As the Frost user gets stronger, so does his snowglobe, so he can take on stronger enemies in a natural feeling progression

 

To those people that think frost needs more armor and more speed... we have mods for that. Frost is supposed to be a tank. Tanks have health and armor at the expense of mobility. If your team leaves you behind... then you have a crappy team. (besides Frost already is faster now then he was originally)

Frost's armour is fine as it is too :| Because the steel fiber mod is percentage based, it gives Frost so much more armor then anyone else gets (save for rhino and valkyrie ofc) Keep your mods up to date.

 

I do appreciate the other buffs Frost got,  but I feel like his biggest defence got traded in for a lot of offence. I like how Ice Wave is useful now,  but I do miss my old globes. I would be ok with having a numerical limit on the number of active globes, if the current snowglobe gets a buff. One active Snow Globe per Frost sounds reasonable if it doesn't time out

Edited March 4, 2014 by wintersword

[Balter]

Apply Armor to Snowglobe is a must. It would make for some interesting builds. Depending on exactly how Armor interacts with the effective health of the globe, I would say to give frost a buff to his armor if its on the lower end. A gental nudge to his armor would also make steel fiber more viable for surivability for frost himself and not just snowglobe as well. So there is that.

 

As for removing the durration, I sugesest a few things.  

 

If the durration is removed, there needs to be a limit on snowglobes. Even just 1 should sufice if the armor->globe buff is ample enough.

 

If the durration stays, Maybe push up the base durration to a minute or 1.5 minutes. This should make it last long enough without there being too many globes on the field as well as keep Fleeting Expertise in ballance with the rest of Frost's abilities. Trolling with frost was possbible with durration builds and the "immortal" globe yet in my experence playing, I never saw a frost troll with it.

[Mcl_Blue]

I'm not sure how well this idea will be received, but here I go:

 

What if we one-upped the armor idea by making Snow Globe's health be proportional to Frost's as well?

One complaint I've seen concerning the current Snow Globe is scaling; fixed numbers don't scale and that becomes a problem at later levels.

If the Snow Globe's life was directly proportional to Frost's life, players would have more control over how much life Snow Globe has; using Vitality to increase Frost's life would also increase the Snow Globe's life, which would also be affected by the power strength mods.

 

That way, Snow Globe would have a more scale-able health value, and players would have a lot more control over it, too.

 

 

...Of course, I'm also assuming that when you guys say "Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe", you mean WITH the influence of mods as well...

 

And since we're talking Frost, I think he should be resistant to the detrimental effects of ice, both enemy procs and environmental hazards, pretty much like Hyena LN2 is. (The same should also apply to all other elemental frames, IMO)

[Noble_Cactus]

I don't blame you for missing that detail, but my suggested mechanic listed:

 

"• A limit of a single Snow Globe can be placed on the field at any instance. Casting of an additional Globe will cause the previous to dissipate, acting much like Loki's Decoy."

 

Believe me, I have taken the time to minimize space for abuse. If you have any further concerns, please do tell me about them!

 

Edit:

 

I do hope I read your post correctly. At the moment I am pretty tired, forgive me, but trust me, I do try.

 

No worries. I should have clarified myself. I meant that a Frost could lay down his one snowglobe, armor up his teammates, then run ahead (himself armored), place another snowglobe, repeat. Of course, there are other factors this doesn't take into account, like nearby Napalms slamming the ground to knock him down, or running out of energy (which in turn could be circumvented by laying down an energy restore in the globe before moving on.

[(PSN)Chip_Foamy]

Removing the timer would be nice, but make it vulnerable to friendly fire to prevent trolls.

[notionphil]

I like this idea a lot. Since friendly shots impact with the outside of the globe, it could create interesting tactic situations with Frost having to leave the safety of his globe in order to maintain/repair it, while teammates provide covering fire from within. I've always enjoyed abilities with interesting team dynamics like that, such as everybody wailing on Nyx to get the maximum effect out of her Absorb.

As a means of balancing this so that people can't just slap cold on their Soma and have an invincible globe, perhaps repairs should only happen when a cold proc happens. This for example would make Soma a poor choice for globe repairs as it's likely to proc impact/puncture/slash instead of cold, while weapons like the freeze ray mentioned in a recent livestream would make a good and more importantly logical and intuitive choice for the job.

 

Interesting take on the idea.

 

Even so, only cold damage would cause repairs and there's a limited amount of cold you can get out of a weapon - at least until the Corpus freeze ray comes out (just made that up but obviously it's coming eventually).

[Brontolith]

Armor is a pretty useless stat. Look at valkyr even with all her armor she still can't take to many hits before she folds and she's a way smaller target then the globe. If they are gonna add armor to the globe hey better make it a huge boost something around 5x as much armor as frost has. Removing the timer might also be a mistake. Can you imagine the trolling in infested missions if there is no timer?

There's no way to balance such a power either it's crazy good like it used to be or it has hp and will eventually fall into uselessness cause of how enemies scale there is no in-between that I can think of.

[mcKentucky]

Neither of those works. The ability needs to be Bastille'd. What do I mean?

 

Make it block X number of projectiles like how Bastille blocks X number of enemies from getting through. Have this number of projectiles go up based on ability power and the rank of the mod.

 

No matter what, Frost will always lose with hit points, armor or not. Blocking X numbers of bullets will allow the power to scale with any level of foe.

 

 

+1. I prefer this. For example, 1 projectile for each 2 armor ratings.

[CerebrateJoe]

I love both of these ideas.  For a long time I've felt that my maxed armor mod was kinda a waste.  I love the idea of armor having a benefit.  As for the duration.  Yes, loose it.  I've been unhappy that I have to waste a mod slot on continuity, and it doesn't seem do do anything for the other abilities.  I've been using Intensify (Focus) and Blind Rage to pump it up, which costs a fortune in energy.  Then it fades before it absorbs all the damage my mods allow for.

 

Both changes are great.

[SanguineSavant]

Very happy with all of this but wouldn't a good solution to the 'griefing' problem be just allow your allies to shoot through it? Why is it necessary it blocks your allies shots from the outside in the first place? Because it does so for enemies? Frost can manipulate ice at will so it makes more sense if he could allow for friendlies to shoot through than those survival missions where somehow we're fighting to replace our air supply....on a planet's surface...How do these guys even effect our air supply in the first place again?

Edited March 4, 2014 by Warwickane

[Warlord1400]

 

 

1) Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

 

 

Why not both?

FRost is getting all this crap from players, and there is only one solution. Buff up Snow Globe. Take away the timer and give it more health. :)

How about have any weapon, except enemies, have ice damage inside the snow globe?

Edited March 4, 2014 by Warlord1400

[Noble_Cactus]

If you're want to make Snow Globe health damage reduced by 155 Frost's armor... equip all health and shield mods, go to Pluto-Outer Terminus (i don't even talk about higher levels), meet a single Corpus Tech and let him kill you then you'll probably see the not a single one Damage Reduction can help when a single enemy can deal that amount a damage.

 

Make Globe armor scale like Grineer Armor scales. Maybe then it will make a bit of sence at least.

 

 

I don't know why this wasn't done still.

 

Basic Globe health should be increased as well, minumum 50% from a current numbers.

 

If this were to be valued at, say, 2 projectiles per point of armor like mcKentucky suggested, and a Frost were to equip a max Steel Fiber for 399 armor (if the wiki is to be trusted), then a single globe would withstand... 798 projectiles. That's actually not too bad, but when enemies start taking longer to kill, and those enemies are spitting out dozens of bullets at a time, I still don't see it lasting long. If you have several Heavy Gunners/Techs spraying their Gorgons/Supras (which have no reload) at it combined with a bunch of Elite Lancers/Dera Crewmen/MOAs flinging hurty things at it, the globe will fall quickly. Not to mention Napalm flame carpets, which would likely eat up durability points (and go through the globe anyway iirc; I don't group with many Frosts on Survival).

 

So in the end, it'd just be another bandage fix that would make the globe overpowering at lower levels, and fall off drastically after 30-40 minutes. Which is what we don't want.

 

EDIT: I can't math.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[KONAir]

Just how out of touch the devs are from the actual gameplay? Armor value doesn't even help Warframes and Globes don't survive their duration anyway.

[Noble_Cactus]

Very.

[Hyunsai]

Simple fix : Snow globe got 5 seconds of full invincibility and 25 seconds of normal health. This would be a fix number, non affected by power duration. 

 

In fact, unless there is some kind of invincibility, even short, any health based protection will be utterly useless in high levels. With this solution, only players with multi formaed Frost and Corrupted mods could have the necessary energy management to make it work end game.

 

You could make this 75 energy if you feel it's still too powerful.

[pyrleon87]

As many have already stated, removing the duration will most likely increase the skill's trolling potential. That has to be countered by either limiting the numbers of globes or enabling allies to shoot through.

 

Honestly, to me it never made sense how we could shoot through from within, but not from outside. Warframe abilities and everything considered, it is still quite unrealistic, even in this odd universe's conditions. It is still important to have bullets be blocked for defense type missions, but I do think our Tennos are capable enough to know which bullets to let through and which not.

 

Then there's people who will spam this glove everywhere, just because they can. Limiting the use to 3 at a time would be best, I think, since then you can use one to shield the primary objective, but use others for cover while reviving fallen allies etc. You could also make it so that when globe is triggered a 4th time, the 1st one will simply disappear - meaning only 3 globes maximum at any given time. There just needs to be a little tweaking done when there's multiple Frosts in missions. Max 3 globes for all players would still lead to people trolling or fighting over their globes. 3 for each player however, would mean there could be up to 12 globes in a mission. Now I don't know if that would give people too much lag, but I think this case in itself is too unlikely to happen in your every day mission (for example, the maximum numbers of Frost in a mission I've seen so far ... is two).

Yet another helping idea which was posted already that the globe could melt if the caster moves too far away. I totally love that, in combination with all that stuff I wrote earlier. I think globe was meant to be like that: defend from a static position to either shield fallen allies or terminals, just like we always do. For both, you shouldn't need to move around too much.

 

As for armor... I don't think it should NOT depend on FROST's armor, but it should have it's own - which can then be increased along with it's current health.

 

Another thing I had in mind was that our shields get cut really low in missions with ice and that it should apply to our enemies too, at least when inside the globe.

 

Just my opinion, however.

Edited March 4, 2014 by pyrleon87

[ExistenceSD]

Good thinking,
Finally, a solid idea on how to resolve the globe duration related issue. It'd be my suggestion as well, and the armor implement will certainly make it more lasting. 
Additionally, it'll make Avalanche more viable, not having to use Narrow Minded thus not crippling it's range.
So to keep it brief, keep it up DE, really like the way you're going with this and I can't wait to see it actually applied.
Cheers 

Edit:
Also, yeah, I agree with some of the members, the number of globes should be limited to a reasonable quantity. 

Edited March 4, 2014 by ExistenceSD

[CyklonDX]

The best decision I believe for fixing the hp and duration would be:

The snow-globe should take no energy to cast yet it will continuously drain your energy while its on (thus more energy = more time) cast it again to stop the ability. (this will also prevent so called trolls from spamming it.)

Now onto HP of Snow Globe

After casting it - it should be indestructible for at least 10sec (if caster has energy to support it)

After that the amount of hp should be something as such:

(Energy + Power) x Duration = Snow Globe HP

This way it would ensure that their snow-globe isn't useless in later tiers of the game.

Regards

[Calayne]

I support a mechanic addition, rather than just armor tweaking. Many of Frost's skills are still not very fun to play with, nor are they useful. Freeze doesn't feel like an AoE power, and is ridiculously under-powered. It was worse than Volt's Shock, even before the buff. Ice Wave is still marginally useful but unsatisfying.

 

I'm glad Snow Globe's getting a buff, but without any new mechanism to complement his other powers, he's just going to be another one-trick-pony, abandoned when the going gets tough because his Globe won't last even with his armor. There's almost no synergy to his powers, unlike Ember, Nova, Rhino, Loki and many others.