Frost Revisited 3/3/2014

[GhostWOlf995]

Btw maybe a little of topic but i would change the snowglobe visual. the globe is fine but add another visual when it breaks now its just melt away,nothing creative

[Zagrax]

Give frost a slight armor buff to make steel fiber better on him

[-Kalysto-]

Remove timer. Make it work like Rhino Skin, after a certain limit of damage is hit, it'll disappear.

 

 

 

 

 

PS: Would be cool if when it disappears, the globe shatters in ice. :P

[Alymbic]

How about this? Go ahead and remove the timer and make snow globe armour affected, but also make the snow globe lose HP over time, justified by the ambient temperature heating up and deteriorating the snow globe. This bleed damage is affected by both power duration mods (actual damage per second) and indirectly by power strength (more hp the globe has, the more the bleed damage has to chew through). This still allows for useful snow globing, and the potential for good long term protection, but the caster has to be mindful of its slowly worsening state.

 

In a purely observational way, it makes sense for the snow globe to waste away than to mysteriously vanish after 30 seconds.

[Issun135]

Also make frost ride his ice wave. I just want to be ice man x3

[Stingray97]

Give freeze AoE, this will make it a potent cc ability.

[aa3123]

Make snowglobe invulnerable.

No longer blocks protectiles.

Slow radius affected by range mods.

Only 1 snowglobe up at a time.  Preferably casting a new one replace the old or just make it mobile.

 

Not as op as chaos, blind, stomp, vortex, bastille, but slow better than Mprime without the damage boost.

[.tuordiel.]

Add Health to Snow Globe +4000к. And this will be great. Or HP of Globe must be based on maximum level Health of Frost.

Globe` Armor must be based on Armor of Frost.

More freezing effects for another abilities.

Change second abilitie to inrease Frost armor (if Globe will have armor based on armor of Frost this will be great combo) and rename it to Frozen Armor.

I vote positively to Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe. Only 1 Snow Glove up at a time. The first use of the Snow Globe will install. The second use is to disable it.

Edited March 4, 2014 by tuordiel_JDS

[Ketec]

1) armor is too low  for 1:1 ratio - And with only 1 mod that affects armor - its basically as good as flat out boosting the snow globe HP.

2) No, it would cause spam of never disappearing snowglobe trolling if there aint mobs around to break them.

 

 

1. Use resistances - like innate armor value (alloy style?) or make it act more shield like.

2. Base HP boost.

3. Block explosion damage inside

4. Release some aoe explosion when it fails - that ether does damage or freezes/applies cold proc.

5. When taking damage, absorb and release incoming damage every ~1s - ether causing cold proc or some other effect - smaller damage gets absorbed less, higher damage more (so it scales up with higher enemy levels).

[FURRIK]

Hi reputable council.

 

On me it is so better that at Frost's sphere would clean time, and made so: We will allow the technician of the case shoots at the sphere. And in that place where it shot the hole which passes all shots is formed, in too time the sphere doesn't disappear if not to fire at least at a sphere half.

[Zephyric_Reaper]

Back with a few facts. 

Due to the nature of snowglobe and it's bunch of downsides, it can only be used in defense and mobile defense. Use it elsewhere and you'll be stuck with infinate spawns and not really achieving anything normal cover can't do, aka, useless. 

That's 2/9 type of missions (and that's without counting invasions, interception and such). And of that 2/9 it only works with 2 factions. So, in the end, snowglobe can only be used in 20% of the content and for reviving unreliably. 

I think that making snowglobe any tougher won't solve it. It will just make it strong in its niche but carry on with its problems. Maybe it's thinking too much inside the box globe.

 

It is still negatively affected by range, making the synergy in all his kit VERY badly. Modding globe is still too troublesome without affecting other skills inmensely. 

 

I repeat myself: snowglobe needs a rework. 

Edited March 4, 2014 by Zephyric_Reaper

[pyrleon87]

Just to sum up some posts I read after my initial post in this thread:

 

Snow Globe

- indestructible for XX seconds/hits taken, then have it's health depleted

- frozen armor

- Cold dmg or Frost's other skills heal the globe/Globe slowly regenegates by itself

- cold resistance

- slowing aura around Frost

- enemies get cold damage while inside the globe

- block XX number of bullets/projectiles

- reduce incoming damage by XX%

- increase/remove duration/drain energy while active

- Snow Globe will be replaced by casting the skill anew/set number of times

- Allies should be able to shoot through the Globe from outside

- add more Health/Armor to the Globe, based on Frost's stats

- increase visibility from within the Globe

- added Ally (cold) damage while shooting from within the Globe

 

We should probably try to agree on some, but not all of those.

 

Before I add my opinion to the ideas above, I'd like to clarify what I see in Frost and what his main problems are since his "buff".

 

Recently, when I was in a T3 mobile defense mission and had but one single terminal left to defend, one of those icy Leader type Heavy Gunners appeared. Me, playing Frost, put up a Globe instantly around the terminal. My build was focused on health, shield and ability strength - as high as those can get without dual or corrupted mods. Said enemy bursted through Globe, my Frost and the terminal within 2 or 3 seconds. Instant mission fail. Couldn't even hit him due to his own globe.

 

I see no Warframe as a "one-trick-pony", but there are abilities that just don't do as much as their brothers. I loved Frost for his utility before his skills got changed, even though his Globe was the only skill worth casting. Now it's quite the other way around - when I play Frost, I do cast his Globe sometimes, but I'm usually better off freezing all enemies with a duration-increased Avalanche, then gunning everything down with my comrades.

 

Now I don't think his globe should be indestructible, not even for a few seconds. But as it is now, it stands no chance against either a larger group of enemies, or worse, a single Leader enemy who isn't even high level playground. Both it's health and duration are either too low or need something else to keep it alive. That may be innate health regeneration or a cold absorbing effect. Just increasing it's health or adding armor won't keep it alive much longer, at least in higher level missions. It could be bound to Frost's presence, meaning it will regenerate when he himself is inside the Globe, but will start to lose health at an increasing rate while he is outside. However, this would force Frost players to say inside most of the time and only allow for a maximum of one globe per Player. If there is only one Frost in team and his allies get downed one by one, he would have to choose between defending the missions primary objective or reviving his comrades. It would however keep people from spamming the Globe to "lag-out" other players, as many already worried about.

 

Since Frost's abilites are cold-based, it seems only logical that cold from whatever source would help keeping the Globe up. This however reminds me of fire damage before damage 2.0: Enemies would light up, but not lose health over time when hit by fire. To me, somehow it feels like DE has no idea what cold damage is actually supposed to do. It deals double damage to shields and slows foes when used on a weapon - but when there's ice in a mission, it cuts our shields to half. I can only repeat myself in that I want that shield-cutting effect on Frost's Globe, along with the slow. That at least would help with melee-type enemies who dare to enter. Any damage per second effect, however, would turn it from a third ability into an ultimate one - like that it sounds almost better than his actual ultimate ability, Avalance. I think CC effects are about enough, any damage needed can still be done by Tenno's weapons.

 

If, for whatever reason, it is decided that it will, like before, have no health, but only a duration, then the damage reduction idea would probably be the best. That might help in higher levels, but only if the reduction is high enough, or else everyone and everything we try to protect inside the Globe will still get a lot of damage. For those who fear trolling, neither health nor duration keep people from spamming Globes. Removing the duration completely, however, will probably do more harm than good. About health, that too hasn't done any good for us, I believe.

 

Added cold damage to Frost and his allies, as well as some kind of frozen armor for him alone, seem like nice extras, but they won't get rid of the actual problem with the Globe: It simply sucks at defending, which I think is it's only purpose, since it does no damage. Most people don't even bother using it in Infested missions, unless for the slowing effect. It needs to stay alive longer, but not last as long as Rhino's Iron Skin. A short timer may be enough, as long as it either reduces or blocks incoming damage completely. I'd say it's base duration should be lower, not set at 30 seconds. Even with 15 seconds, that's usually enough time to take down a few enemies and collect some more energy. Just don't do the health thing or all our Hopes and Globes keep dying.

 

I may add something more to this post later, since I'm short on time right now. People like Zephyric_Reaper posted some interesting things that I couldn't get to yet. However, I think we can all agree on at least those two things:

- do something about reduced vision by that snow effect while inside the Globe

- allow allies to shoot through it

 

As for his other abilities, I didn't bother much, but currently I don't see them in a position as bad as Snow Globe's.

[icemount]

Hi there,

It seems viable to get rid of timer, but limit globes. Maybe accordingly to power lvl ?

SG 0,1 - 1 Globe

SG 2,3 - 2 Globes  

Makes sense ?

 

And definitely Freeze needs small AoE, with more emphasis on slow/freeze effect than actual dmg.

Edited March 4, 2014 by icemount

[BuHat0S_D]

And how about such idea:
Until Frost is in the the globe, the globe has unlimited time and restores health if it take's dmg (like a pod on def. missions).
But if Frost leaves the globe, then the timer for 30 seconds (which does not affect by the duration mods) is activated, and globe's health stops to regen.
p.s. the number of casting the globes is unlimited, and every globes can regen their HP and  timer will be turn off  if Frost  comes into the them.

Edited March 4, 2014 by crazychuvak

[SazerTarious]

I agree with Removing the Time limit from snow globe, and like notionphil said if your snow globe gets hit by cold damage type it should regen the globe's health, Also limit the damn globe casting numbers from infinite to 3 or 4.

[LoRd_MePh1sTo]

limit the cast to 2, remove duration, increase damage done inside,ice damage over time...

 

then it will become too much overpower.

[Tenyu]

Change it to:
Press 3 > snow globe appears. Press 3 again, snow globe dissapears. basically make frost able to activate and cancel the skill.

[Thelonious]

Psycosist is right, you'd have an easier task of balancing skills for "high-level" or "artificial end-game", if you fixed enemy scaling beforehand.

 

I mean, you already know how messy it was just to scale enemy armor properly: reworking the scaling curve, implementing hard caps, the [puncture/armor bypass] damage types, etc...

 

Maybe the rest of the general scaling needs the same (I don't know, a level cap maybe?)

Maybe difficulty scaling should be based on something else than hard numbers, as briefly introduced with the new elemental damage system. 

 

Who wouldn't want to fight an army of JUST HEAVIES? gradually less and less lancers/crewmen/chargers (or any light unit).

Why not having more and more normal enemies getting special abilities as they level up, not just one leader every 10 minutes?

And those enemies having clear counterplay in order to defeat them? More skill-based maybe?

 

OT: 

1. Wouldn't be much different than buffing the globe health, as mentionned so many times in previous posts.

Not to mention it's kinda unintuitive (don't make it something of an hidden feature, it should be obvious to new players). 

Even if the scaling with "non-power" mods seems nice, and should apply to more abilitites. 

 

2. Would decrease the amount of "choice" the player has when making a build (Isn't that the point of the mod system?).

Other Frost abilities scaling badly with power duration, what would be the point of using duration mods then?

Going full power strength would be the only go-to build. How do you call that already? oh yeah, a Cookie-cutter build. Not a sign of good design imo.

Not to mention the interaction with Corrupted mods. Spammy spammy Fleeting Expertise yummy yummy. Not much of a deep gameplay, if that matters. 

 

Many good ideas have already been mentionned above:

 - The Hit limit would sure solve the scaling issues, but basically, a bombard would be less dangerous for the globe than say a Lancer. Weird.

 

 - Freeze damage healing the globe would be way too complicated and long to implement for DE's schedule (new content! new content! new content first!), and will probably never be.

Elemental interaction between players is just brilliant though, one of the things this game needs to promote teamwork.

 

 - A llimit on the number of globes is just obvious, and should have been since day 1.

I'm all for one globe at a time, to promote choice ("do I rez this guy over there and risk the pod being unprotected?"), and active gameplay ("ok, I need to recast the second this one wears off, or we're all dead") but I'm a bit hardcore this way.

 

Just to add to the discussion, here's my not very original idea

 

Snow Globe is now a mobile aura around Frost, slowing down everything that goes within, being enemies or their projectiles,

resulting in a damage reduction of X/X/X/X% per mod rank (scaling with power strength) during Y/Y/Y/Y seconds (scaling with power duration) for any ally within the globe (including the pod ofc)

Nothing else, it only affects enemies, so no more I-can-shoot-from-inside-but-not-from-outside nonsense.

Doesn't solve the scaling issue, even 10% of 10000 damage would still instagib you, but would increase the teamplay value of the ability, as in, stay close to me to be safe(r ).

Edited March 4, 2014 by Thelonious

[Mazikeen]

All skills should benefit from power duration, strength and range (whenever possible).

Not doing so has a serious flaw: corrupted mods have no drawback on such skills, leading to absurd situations.

So, before removing the duration, it might be necessary to consider alternatives.

 

Regarding armor, it is technically the same as increasing the health of the globe, except that the power starts to double-scale with armor mod/helmet multiplied by power strength...

 

So, in the end, increasing the health of the globe by any amount felt necessary would help the community digest the change while avoiding a lot of headaches to fix future weird scaling/mod combinations that will inevitably appear...

[helosie]

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

 

What about enemies that cannot damage the globe such as infested?

Unless melee mobs can attack it, this would be a bad change with people in infested maps spawning globes all over the place, because you can't shoot thru them if your outside them.

 

P.S:

One important change needs to be made, INCREASE HIS MOVEMENT SPEED.

At least to a 1.0 like Excal or something, he doesn't need to be this bloody slow now.

Edited March 4, 2014 by helosie

[WSkD]

My opinion is still the same, sadly. Snow Globe and Avalanche are the way to go. Skill 1 and 2 aren't worth bothering with.

 

Improvements are plenty, so I will not repeat them, I think important are points like: ~5m AoE for Skill 1, stronger freezing effect/ freezing affects dealt damage, wider area for Skill 2, more consistent movement of the ice wave and such things. 

Avalanche is ok as it is, the improvements done are nice; additional/ optional good ideas also have been said.

 

Soo coming to Snow Globe.. it is a pain. I just tried it against Level 5 Corpus and they were easily able to take the Globe (with Intensify) down. Therefore and because the Globe (now) fails me everytime I want to USE it (to protect me, my team, the Cyropod, to regain my shields, ....): 

 

I think you should drop the health part and just use (a) duration.

 

But like others suggested I think you could change some values, for example that it now blocks all in- and outgoing fire. Also a nice idea I have read is that all Tenno which went once inside have some sort of additional armour. Also I would limit the number of Snow Globes to one, a recast will dispel the older Globe. 

That are my two cents, looking forward how you do it DE!

 

El Psy Congroo

WSkD

[(PSN)towerhill-BPT]

Remove duration. in my opinion it would be better for frost since he has no other powers that rely on duration there are only a certain amount of card slots and a mod for duration does not need to be clogging up the few that's there. also give the snow globe a damage meter so that we can see the amount of damage the globe is taking to give us a sense of what we are up against and be able to pace our selves accordingly.

 

*forget about having the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe we are already having to worry about use up drain to improve the health of the snow globe.

[LukeAura]

P.S:

One important change needs to be made, INCREASE HIS MOVEMENT SPEED.

At least to a 1.0 like Excal or something, he doesn't need to be this bloody slow now.

People keep saying that and I still don't understand why. 

[(PSN)edwinp426]

Hi there,

 

I think the snow globe should regenerate if you kill enemies inside it. I agree with there not being a timer on it as well.Also there's no mention of shields for the snow globe. I believe the snow globe should possess the shields of its user.

[(PSN)edwinp426]

One thing I forgot to mention was that his base speed should be increased now that snow globe doesn't provide as much protection in defense mission.